The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: Bill McKibben and Elizabeth Kolbert on the Pandemic and the Environment

Date: April 17, 2020
Host: David Remnick

Episode Overview

This episode explores the intertwined crises of the COVID-19 pandemic and ongoing environmental challenges, including climate change and biodiversity loss. Host David Remnick is joined by renowned writers and environmentalists Bill McKibben and Elizabeth Kolbert to examine the implications of the pandemic for environmental policy, personal behavior, and society at large. Later, the show features a segment with disease ecologist Dr. Jonathan Epstein, who demystifies the origins of coronaviruses and the role of bats in global ecology.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reflections from Vermont: Bill McKibben’s Connection to Nature

[00:40 – 03:33]

• Bill McKibben shares his experiences in Vermont during the pandemic, walking listeners to a spring marsh alive with wood frogs.
  • Quote: “...to be out at night and be reminded that we're a small part of something very, very, very large...it does maybe help me anyway get through to the next day.” (Bill McKibben, 02:28)
• Despite widespread sadness, Bill finds comfort in nature’s resilience and continuity through the crisis.

2. The Legacy of Earth Day at 50

[03:33 – 04:21]

• David Remnick marks the 50th anniversary of the first Earth Day, recounting its impact — from inspiring mass mobilization to landmark legislation like the Clean Air and Clean Water Acts, and the creation of the EPA by Richard Nixon.

3. Rollbacks of Environmental Protections During the Pandemic

[05:34 – 06:28]

• Elizabeth Kolbert explains the Trump administration’s aggressive actions to dismantle environmental regulations, notably rushing to repeal protections before the end of the term.
  • Quote: “They're really racing to do as much damage as they possibly can in a short amount of time as possible.” (Elizabeth Kolbert, 05:34)
• Focus on the weakening of fuel efficiency standards and the administration’s favoritism toward the fossil fuel industry.

4. Oil Industry Opportunism and the Keystone Pipeline

[06:28 – 07:58]

• Bill McKibben highlights the acceleration of projects like the Keystone Pipeline during the pandemic, with companies exploiting the crisis to bypass public resistance and oversight.
  • Quote: “This is an out of control machine and it's doing damage right now.” (Bill McKibben, 07:32)
• Concerns over fly-in construction in vulnerable rural and Native communities.

5. Environmental Silver Linings Amid Pandemic Lockdown

[07:58 – 09:33]

• Observation of unintended positive environmental effects, such as clearer air and water.
• Kolbert cautions that while the crisis shows our capacity for rapid societal change, its impact on future climate action is unclear.
  • Quote: “I certainly hope that we will not let this crisis go to waste, but I don’t know that we won’t let it go to waste.” (Kolbert, 09:14)

6. Lessons from COVID-19 for the Climate Crisis

[09:33 – 11:04]

• McKibben draws parallels: science must be respected; physical realities (whether C02 or viruses) don’t negotiate.
  • Quote: “Science is real and physical reality matters.” (McKibben, 09:36)
• Early and decisive action is critical for both public health and climate.
  • Example: South Korea’s swift coronavirus response compared to U.S. inaction.

7. Economic Recovery, the Green New Deal, and Infrastructure

[11:04 – 12:02]

• Kolbert advocates for using recovery investments to build clean energy and transportation systems, not to prop up dying industries.
  • Quote: “If we took that lesson and didn’t just pour money into dying and or should-be-dying sectors...we would be in a much, much better place.” (Kolbert, 11:44)

8. Rethinking Personal Behavior and Carbon Emissions

[12:23 – 13:55]

• Discussion on curtailed air travel and changed lifestyles during the pandemic as an opportunity to reassess unsustainable behaviors.
  • Quote: “...whether we just go back to business as usual, or whether we do rethink some of those ways in which we've been living that cannot be sustained.” (Kolbert, 13:16)

9. Inequality, Social Trust, and Community

[13:55 – 15:53]

• McKibben links both crises to the dangers of social inequality.
  • Quote: “...we can no longer continue to have a world where five or six people have as much wealth as hundreds of millions of other people. It doesn't work because those people, the poor people, get sick and die.” (McKibben, 13:57)
• Hopes the return from “detention” leads to a renewed valuing of social bonds over consumption.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Science is real and physical reality matters.” – Bill McKibben [09:36]
• “I certainly hope that we will not let this crisis go to waste, but I don't know that we won't let it go to waste.” – Elizabeth Kolbert [09:14]
• “When we get out of detention, I hope that it will be a reminder to us about how much social distancing we've been doing already these last few decades...” – Bill McKibben [15:18]

[16:54 – 18:59] Urban/Nature Vignettes

• Voices from New Yorkers reflect on the changed relationship to nature during the lockdown:
  • New appreciation for greenery, simple walks, and outdoor spaces.
  • The experience of city parks and even glimpses of a shooting star take on renewed meaning amidst confinement.
  • “It’s an uncanny feeling. So it looks the same as it did before, but it’s not the same.” (Anonymous, 18:45)

[18:59 – 30:53] Deep Dive: Where Do Coronaviruses Come From?

Dr. Jonathan Epstein: Disease Ecology and Bat Research

Origins & Fieldwork

[19:48 – 23:39]

• Dr. Epstein, a disease ecologist, recounts investigating bat populations in China following the first SARS outbreak in 2004.
  • Describes entering massive limestone caves, capturing bats with nets, and collecting samples for viral analysis.

Key Discoveries

[23:39 – 25:09]

• Epstein’s team identified horseshoe bats as reservoirs of SARS-like viruses, proving bats as a natural source.

How Diseases Jump Species

[25:09 – 27:30]

• Explains how spillover occurs: viruses use specific cell receptors (e.g., ACE2) conserved across mammals, facilitating potential jumps.

Why Bats Are Special Hosts

[27:30 – 29:07]

• Bats evolved to dampen inflammation, possibly as an adaptation to flight, allowing them to harbor viruses without illness.

Perspective on Bats

[30:00 – 30:50]

• Stresses ecological value of bats, countering their negative reputation:
  • “...the most dangerous thing about these bats is us tripping and falling in the cave when we're walking in there...They're the most important animals in the world to people for so many reasons.” (Epstein, 30:07)
  • Bats provide vital ecosystem services: pest control, pollination, and seed dispersal.

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | Content | |---------|-----------|---------| | Nature during the pandemic with Bill McKibben | 00:40–03:33 | Personal reflection and solace found in the wilderness | | 50th anniversary of Earth Day | 03:33–04:21 | Earth Day’s origins and transformative policies | | Trump Administration environmental rollbacks | 05:34–06:28 | Race against time to dismantle regulations | | Keystone Pipeline developments | 06:28–07:58 | Exploitative actions taken during the pandemic | | Pandemic’s environmental effects | 07:58–09:33 | Pollution drops, ambiguous future for climate action | | COVID-19 and lessons for climate change | 09:33–11:04 | Importance of respecting science and timely action | | Economic recovery and the Green New Deal | 11:04–12:02 | Leveraging recovery for sustainable infrastructure | | Personal behavior and sustainability | 12:23–13:55 | Audience's reset on consumption and travel | | Inequality and social trust | 13:55–15:53 | Social ramifications of both crises | | Urban vignettes: Experience of nature in lockdown | 16:54–18:59 | New Yorkers reflect on rediscovering the outdoors | | Dr. Epstein on coronaviruses and bats | 19:48–30:53 | Wildlife origins, field stories, ecological insight |

Tone & Language

• Bill McKibben: Reflective, earnest, draws on nature and shared humanity.
• Elizabeth Kolbert: Analytical, direct, delivers urgent critique of policy inaction.
• Jonathan Epstein: Factual, enthusiastic about science and conservation.

For Listeners Seeking More

• The episode skillfully connects the personal, political, and scientific threads of our current moment, drawing lessons from nature and illness alike for the environmental movement.
• Both Bill McKibben and Elizabeth Kolbert’s writings can be found in The New Yorker and through their “Climate Crisis” newsletter.