Brooke Shields on the Sexualization of Girls in Hollywood

Summary

Podcast Summary: “Brooke Shields on the Sexualization of Girls in Hollywood”

The New Yorker Radio Hour
Host: WNYC Studios & The New Yorker
Episode Date: April 4, 2023
Interview by: Michael Shulman
Guest: Brooke Shields

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Episode Overview

This episode features a candid and reflective conversation with Brooke Shields about her experiences growing up in the public eye as a child actress and model, the sexualization she endured from an early age in Hollywood, and how these experiences have shaped both her own perspective and modern cultural conversations. The discussion is held in the context of a new documentary about her, “Pretty Baby: Brooke Shields,” streaming on Hulu.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Growing Up in the Spotlight

• Unusual Childhood Experience

  • Brooke Shields describes how her life in show business felt normal since she knew nothing else. She explains the challenges of not having a private childhood and working from a very young age.
  • Quote: “I never knew anything different. ...I only knew working and I only knew school and jobs. That’s what you did.” (Brooke Shields, 01:46)

• Her Mother’s Role

  • Shields’ mother insisted she prioritize education, only allowing her to work after school.
    • “There’s a 10 o’clock appointment for her,” and her mom would respond, “She’s in school, right?” (Brooke Shields, 01:46)

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2. Media Scrutiny and Press Encounters

• Objectification and Lack of Respect from Interviewers
  • Shields recalls the endless barrage of uncomfortable, often invasive questions from the press about her body, sexuality, and personal life, even as a child. She notes how this caused her to distrust journalists and recognize the lack of integrity in these encounters.
  • Quote: “To have Barbara Walters... talk about my measurements, to have, you know, Phil Donahue… There was nothing intellectual about it.” (Brooke Shields, 03:28)
• Emotional Impact
  • Over time, Shields became numb to the disrespect, viewing the media circus as a routine and faulting the adults conducting these interviews more than the controversial film roles themselves.
  • Quote: “You watch this little girl and you think, shame on you guys. ... I put more blame and shame on the interviewers and the press than I ever would about Pretty Baby.” (Brooke Shields, 03:28)
• A Lasting Mistrust
  • Shields says this led her early on to realize she couldn’t trust people in the industry, a lesson that shaped her outlook.
  • (Brooke Shields, 05:30)

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3. Making ‘Pretty Baby’ and Child Stardom

• The Making of ‘Pretty Baby’
  • Shields discusses her “breakout” role at age 11 in “Pretty Baby,” reflecting on how she understood the film’s themes and her early exposure to adult topics.
  • She viewed the film as a serious, high-quality production exploring innocence and agency.
  • Quote: “I think it’s the most beautiful movie I’ve ever made … I’m fascinated with that journey of innocence to experience… and how… do they become a victim to it or do they not?” (Brooke Shields, 07:12)
• Child Actor Perspective
  • Shields describes the naïveté inherent to her age at the time and how no one truly guided her through the complexities of such roles.
  • Her recounting of filming a kissing scene with Keith Carradine is particularly poignant.
  • Quote: “I had never, you know, kissed a boy before.... Keith says, ‘You know, this doesn’t count as a first kiss.’ And I will always be thankful for that.” (Brooke Shields, 11:21–12:05)

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4. Generational Conversation: Talking with Her Daughters

• Gen Z’s Perspective on Consent and Child Sexualization
  • The documentary ends with Shields discussing her films with her daughters, who are blunt about modern understandings of consent and why “Pretty Baby” or similar films would not be made today.
  • Quote: “It’s called child pornography. Technically you were 11, you weren’t mature enough to be making your own decisions and other people signed off being like, oh no, she’s fine…” (Brooke Shields' daughter, 13:17)
• Brooke’s Reflection
  • Shields is clearly proud of her daughters for their awareness and candor, and sees their perspective as deeply shaped by cultural shifts around consent.
  • Quote: “You wouldn’t—I wouldn’t have known to say no or that I could have said no. But it also didn’t occur to me to say no.” (Brooke Shields, 14:27)

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5. The “Discourse” Around Brooke Shields and Image

• Sexualization in Advertising (Calvin Klein Jeans)

  • The conversation examines how Shields’ Calvin Klein ads were a lightning rod for debates on sexualization and profit.
  • Shields is matter-of-fact about her participation, recognizing her role in capitalism and the modeling/advertising industry while admitting there’s a contradiction in both being the product and being scrutinized for it.
  • Quote: “I can’t be a hypocrite… I’m going to sell your stuff and we’re going to sell… and if this is what it is, then that’s what I’m going to do, because it was acting… and in most cases, you know, sex sells, right? So come on… You’re a model. It’s the point.” (Brooke Shields, 16:33–17:37)

• Comparison With Modern Influencers

  • Ratajkowski’s writing sparks a discussion about the difference between superficial empowerment via attention and true power. Shields expresses less patience with narratives of victimization, given the agency and compensation involved.

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6. Brooke Shields’ Evolving Perspective

• Personal Growth and Retrospective
  • Despite cultural changes, Shields stands by her choices, though she wouldn’t want her daughters in the same environment. She deflects the victim narrative, choosing pride in her resilience and autonomy.
  • Quote: “At every step of the way, every time someone criticized it so clearly became about them to me… You’re the one with the problem and you want me to have this problem. …I’m proud of the way that I was able to maintain my point of view.” (Brooke Shields, 18:23–19:50)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker & Quote | |-----------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:46 | Brooke Shields: “I never knew anything different... I only knew working and I only knew school and jobs.” | | 03:28 | Brooke Shields: “Here we go again. Here we go again. ...There was nothing intellectual about it... shame on you guys.” | | 07:12 | Brooke Shields: “I think it’s the most beautiful movie I’ve ever made. ...I value that movie...” | | 11:21–12:05 | Brooke Shields: “Keith says, ‘You know, this doesn’t count as a first kiss’ and I will always be thankful for that.” | | 13:17 | Brooke Shields’ daughter: “It’s called child pornography. Technically you were 11, you weren’t mature enough to be making your own decisions.” | | 16:33 | Brooke Shields: “I can’t be a hypocrite... sex sells, right? So come on... You’re a model. It’s the point.” | | 18:23 | Brooke Shields: “At every step of the way... you want me to have this problem. And I can’t grant you that because ...I’m proud of the way that I was able to maintain my point of view.” |

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Brooke describes her childhood and mother’s influence: 01:46
• Discussion of media objectification and industry distrust: 03:28–05:30
• Reflections on ‘Pretty Baby’: 07:12–10:50
• Filming the infamous kiss: 11:21–12:05
• Conversation with her daughters about “Pretty Baby”: 12:16–14:35
• Analysis of Calvin Klein ads & objectification: 14:54–17:37
• Brooke’s perspective on her legacy and agency: 18:23–19:50

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Tone and Language

The episode balances warm nostalgia, blunt honesty, and critical examination. Brooke Shields is candid, witty, and self-assured, flipping old narratives and challenging both herself and listeners to reconsider ideas of agency, consent, and exploitation. Her tone is resolute, at times playful, and refreshingly direct.

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Summary

Brooke Shields’ interview offers sharp, introspective commentary on her fraught journey through Hollywood’s sexualization of girls, the lack of industry protection, and the activist role of speaking candidly about her past. Her dialogue with her daughters underlines generational evolution in conversations about consent and child agency. While the scars of public scrutiny linger, Shields remains proud of her resilience and the autonomy she fought to retain—a timely message as former taboos and normalized exploitations are being re-examined today.

Transcript

[Brooke Shields]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

[David Remnick]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. In the late 70s and into the 80s, Brooke Shields was one of the most famous and controversial people in America. But if she was somehow notorious, it had nothing to do with her. Exactly. It was the position that she was put in as a child actress and as a young model. When she was 11, she starred in Pretty Baby playing a child prostitute. And when she was 15, she starred in a heavy breathing desert island love story called Blue Lagoon. And there was a notorious series of ads for Calvin Klein jeans that set a new benchmark for skeezy suggestiveness. So for a while there, Brook Shields seemed to be at the center of everything that appalled or titillated people about the era. A new documentary about the life of Brooke Shields is airing next week on Hulu.

[Interviewer introducing Brooke Shields]

My next guest is really a beautiful young lady who at 13, has already achieved an incredible amount of recognition. Brooke Shields starred in the highly publicized film Pretty Baby and she's the subject of a new book called the Brooke Book. She is quite a fascinating young lady. Would you welcome, please, Ms. Brooke Shields.

[David Remnick]

Shields spoke the other day with the New Yorker's Michael Shulman.

[Michael Shulman]

I really didn't realize the extent to which you lived your entire life in the public eye. I mean, it seems like you were, you know, from infancy, you were modeling. Do you have memories of like, coming to realize that your life was unusual in some way?

[Brooke Shields]

Here's the problem with that way of. Not your way of thinking, but the. But that kind of rationale is I never knew anything different. So I think I've seen especially actors go from real, not relative, but anonymity to fame sort of in one movie or overnight. And the shock to their system how much their world changes is what undoes them, you know, Whereas I only knew working and I only knew school and jobs. That's what you did. And I only worked from three o'clock on. Even if they would be like, oh, there's a 10 o' clock appointment for her. And my mom would be like, all right, we'll see you at three. And they were like, but it's at ten o'. Clock. And she's like, she's in school, right?

[Michael Shulman]

So much of the documentary are these clips of you on talk shows sitting across from some middle aged man asking you to essentially defend yourself or asking creepy PR questions about your sexuality or your love life. And then you are usually sitting next to your Mother. And kind of making the case for how this is fine. And there's so many of those clips. And in a way, I feel like self conscious right now. Cause I'm also someone doing that in a way, like asking you about the kind of complicated morality of this work. But how did you feel sort of sitting in those chairs, like being on talk shows, being sort of interrogated like that?

[Brooke Shields]

It just never ended. I mean, you just got so. I mean, there were some clips later where. Or maybe this one made it in. I don't know where you can see me go up. Here we go again. Here we go again. I became this, you know, vaudeville kind of like, oh, here it comes, you know, a question or whatever. And I just sort of just. I think it made me lose so much respect for the. Excuse me, but the press, because it didn't. There was no one place that had even a modicum of integrity. Brooke, what are your measurements? I'm 5, 10 and 120. I don't. I think when people see you, they don't realize. And to have Barbara Walters want. Talk about my measurements, to have, you know, Phil Donahue or these people, you know, Tom Snyder and, you know, and they just like, sort of. There was nothing intellectual about it. And so you saw these adults who you thought were supposed to be the smart people in the world, be so low as common denominator that I just became sort of shut down to all of it. Because I thought, here we go again. And you watch this little girl and you think, shame on you guys. To me, I've put more blame and shame on the interviewers and the press than I ever would about Pretty Baby. The subject or the content or the like that knew exactly what it was it set out to do, and it was an artistic endeavor. Then you get to these journalists and you think, how is that okay to talk to a child like that?

[Michael Shulman]

Right? It's very uncomfortable to watch.

[Brooke Shields]

It's uncomfortable to watch. And it's so. And I just learned at a very young age, you know, not to really trust people. And, you know, I used to think, oh, if I say this, I'll be liked, or, oh, the journalist is gonna get it. They're gonna see it. You know, And I just learned at a very early age that that wasn't gonna be. That wasn't the nature of the industry.

[David Remnick]

You know, this is the New Yorker Radio Hour. More to come.

[Michael Shulman]

What I want to talk about next is a very complicated thing, which is Pretty Baby, not only the name of your documentary, but of course, Was also your breakout role in 1978 in the Louis Malle film?

[Brooke Shields]

Which breakout role? That's so funny.

[Michael Shulman]

Is that not the way to say it?

[Brooke Shields]

It's the way. It's just so. It's so funny looking, like, reexamining all of this and sort of thinking like, yeah, that's what they call a breakout.

[Interviewer introducing Brooke Shields]

This is Brooke Shields, breathtaking in her screen debut. Constantly changing, always surprising.

[Brooke Shields]

Like, the image of, do you think I'm pretty? Yes, I certainly do.

[Brooke Shields' daughter]

You love my mother more than me. I know about those things better than you. You always know those things about men when you're a woman.

[Michael Shulman]

I watched it recently for the first time and honestly, I loved it, but I also do not know what to think about it.

[Brooke Shields]

Oh, see, I think it's the most beautiful movie I've ever made. I think it's the only real quality film I've ever really been in. Like, I just. I value that movie so. In such a different way. And wrote my thesis on it and the sort of the. I'm fascinated with that journey of innocence to experience, you know, and how. Who owns it and how they, you know, do they become a victim to it or do they not? And I don't know, it's just very interesting to me, that movie. You couldn't make it today, obviously, that's what the big theme is now. It's like, oh, you couldn't make that movie today. I mean, you couldn't.

[Michael Shulman]

But it is a beautifully done film. And it's, you know, it's about a young woman who lives in a horror house in turn of the century New Orleans. And this young girl's transition from, in a way, as you were saying, thinking, not knowing that this isn't anything but normal. And then kind of following her mother's footsteps and, you know, becoming a sex worker herself. How. How was the character and the plot described to you and who described it?

[Brooke Shields]

I went in and just talked with Polly Platt and with Louis Malle and they. He just asked me questions like, are you aware of what prostitution is? And I was like, yeah, you know, I often see on 42nd street the girls standing on the corner. And, you know, I always worry that they're cold and, you know, and so I just told him those stories about that. And growing up in Manhattan, you know, I was a city kid, so. And I was a city kid with a single mom. So, you know, I saw New York in the 70s in a very sort of raw way. That was how I grew up. And then he just asked me Questions about the era, the early 1900s, and what the wardrobe looked like. And he said, we're telling the story. It's a true story. It's about a young girl, and it's a love story. Ostensibly, it's a love story, but it's also. He wouldn't have said coming of age at that point, because I don't think I would have understood it. But he was talking about the mother and the daughter, and we talked about, like, my hobbies and, like, what I like doing. I liked riding horses. And I think he just wanted. It wasn't about a proficient performer or a Lolita. It was about the innocence. An innocent and what. How that innocence gets sort of taken, but her choice to not be a victim. And you see it at the end of the film, cinematically, when she turns around and looks into the camera. And it's the first time she looks right down the barrel of the lens and there's a young sort of newsy boy behind her, and he's blurred. And that's the last sort of frame. How she sort of turns that being she in a voyeuristic environment. She then turns it around and says, okay, I'm in control now. You want me to put a bow in my hair and be a kid? I gotcha. And it's just like, to me. I don't think I knew that until later, when I really analyzed the film.

[Michael Shulman]

Right. I'm always fascinated by what child actors understand about what they're doing, especially when they give an incredible film performance.

[Brooke Shields]

Well, it's hard to know. You know, no one was teaching me anything, so I. I wasn't being shepherded in any way. But it was interesting because when the. I had this. The kissing scene with Keith, I think.

[Michael Shulman]

Keith Carradine, who plays the photographer who becomes your husband. Yeah, your husband.

[Brooke Shields]

We get married, and I had never, you know, kissed a boy before. And.

[Michael Shulman]

And you're 11 in this movie, right?

[Brooke Shields]

I'm 11. And I. I didn't know how to. To do that. And I had a kiss. I didn't. I'd never. You know, And. And I was like, oh, God, I don't know what to do. And so I kept scrunching up my face, and the director kept getting mad at me. And. And so Keith says, can I just have a minute with her? And he. And he says, you know, I mean, he was in a very difficult position. I think he must have. I mean, I don't know. I never really spoke to him about it in later years, but it must have been Kind of just hard for him, you know, because time to kiss.

[Michael Shulman]

An 11 year old.

[Brooke Shields]

I know, I mean, it's weird. And he said to me, you know, this doesn't count as a first kiss and I will always be thankful for that.

[Michael Shulman]

It's just so different from anything now. And I love how the documentary ends with you talking to your daughters who I guess are gen. Gen zers.

[Brooke Shields]

I. I guess. Yeah, I think so. That's. Yeah, they're 16 and 19. You haven't seen Pretty Baby? You haven't seen Blue Lagoon? You haven't seen Endless Love?

[Brooke Shields' daughter]

No, I will never ever watch Blue Lagoon.

[Brooke Shields]

Sorry. Okay.

[Brooke Shields' daughter]

Why not Blue Lagoon? Cuz she's like naked. No, I see. If Pretty Baby edits on TikTok and.

[Brooke Shields]

Makes me not want to watch it. Shh.

[Brooke Shields' daughter]

Cuz it's like the movie itself is like this is nothing against. No, I'm not talking. The movie itself is like about something that's not okay now. Right.

[Brooke Shields]

See, I never saw Pretty Bitty.

[Brooke Shields' daughter]

Is there nudity in it?

[Brooke Shields]

Yes. Are you nude? I'm nude twice with my little 11 year old body. That's weird.

[Brooke Shields' daughter]

Weird.

[Brooke Shields]

Why wouldn't you be able to see that movie today? Why wouldn't that movie be able to be made today?

[Brooke Shields' daughter]

Like, it's just, everything's changed. It's called child pornography. Technically you were 11, you weren't mature enough to be making your own decisions and other people signed off being like, oh no, she's fine, you can take her top off, she's fine.

[Brooke Shields]

They blew me away at the end of. Because they weren't prompted at all. And I didn't know that they were aware of any of that or thought that way or you know, and it was really, it was interesting that to see them say that, what they felt about it.

[Michael Shulman]

Right.

[Brooke Shields]

You know, and I was just, I was proud of them for being able to be, to be able to talk about all of it. I mean, I, I don't know. It, it's again, you know, you can't really say like, oh, it was just a different era. It was a different era.

[Michael Shulman]

And like Gen Z knows so much about consent now and thinks about it a lot.

[Brooke Shields]

Right.

[Michael Shulman]

That, that seemed to be what your daughters were saying is that how could you have had consent over being nude at 11?

[Brooke Shields]

And you wouldn't, I wouldn't have known to say no or that I could have said no. But it also didn't occur to me to say no.

[Michael Shulman]

Right.

[Brooke Shields]

You know?

[Michael Shulman]

Yeah. And it seemed like, and this is one thing I really learned Watching the documentary is that basically everything you did became what we would in the present time call a discourse. You know, whether it was the Calvin Klein commercials which people thought were too sexy.

[Brooke Shields]

You want to know what comes between me and my Calvins? Nothing.

[Michael Shulman]

Calvin Klein jeans. I was curious if you've read the supermodel Emily Ratajkowski's book, My Body.

[Brooke Shields]

No, But I'm gonna be on her podcast and she's gonna be on mine. And so I'm getting the book and I'm gonna read it, obviously, before I speak to her. I mean, it's interesting.

[Michael Shulman]

I was thinking about watching the documentary about you because, like, you, she was, you know, the face. And in this book, it's a book of essays, and she really grapples with what it means to kind of, like, make a living off of your image and your beauty. Wait, I wanna. I have a quote from it that I thought was really. Whatever influence and status I've gained were only granted to me because I appealed to men. My position brought me in close proximity to wealth and power and brought me some autonomy, but it hasn't resulted in true empowerment. And she's talking about sort of participating in, like, the influencer economy and sort of being the face of whatever brands, you know, And I'm curious, like, do you. When you, you know, had the. The Calvin Klein jeans ads, it almost seems like a catch 22 in that, you know, you're sort of criticized for being too sexy and in those ads. And yet also the people doing that are like, the people profiting from it is Calvin Klein jeans.

[Brooke Shields]

But that's your job. I mean, you're selling. Do you know what I mean? So it's like, I can't be a hypocrite. And on the one hand, say, I'm going to sell your stuff and we're going to sell. I'm going to sell it however I can. And if this is what it is, then that's what I'm going to do, because it was acting, you know, but I don't then get to turn around and sort of negate. Negate it or put it down or say, like, oh, I'm being used. Yeah, that's what you do. You know, it's like, I just. I don't. There is no. I don't believe in, like, this righteous kind of. All of a sudden, it's like, I'm sorry, but, you know. Exactly. You're making money and you're selling something, and in most cases, you know, sex sells, right? So come on, like, just Shut the up. Yeah, you know, oh, I'm being objectified. You're a model.

[Michael Shulman]

Right.

[Brooke Shields]

It's the point. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not being negative about that because I think she's. She's very right about what her perception of that is. But by the same token, like, I don't believe in having a poor me.

[Michael Shulman]

Well, in a way, what you're saying is very consistent with what you were saying at 12 and 15 on these talk shows, which is, you know, which is that I knew exactly what I was doing getting to this, and it's fine. I mean, do you feel like what has changed, if anything, about your perspective on your early career just as you've gotten older and lived more life? I mean, do you feel like you have the same opinion on it as you did then?

[Brooke Shields]

Pretty much. I mean, yes, I answer my children and saying, would that be a world that I would put them in then or now? And the answer is no. But they're different people. This is a different time. And I have a different perspective, but I don't. Do I have a different perspective about my career? I think I've really. I. I don't know. I don't. I don't think I've really changed. I mean, I feel like the. At every step of the way, every time someone criticized it so clearly became about them to me, you know, And I would watch it time and time and time again, and I'd think, you're the one with the problem and you want me to have this problem. And I can't grant you that because I don't. That is not my perspective. Now, that's hard for you to take because then I'm not a victim. Then what does that mean? And then it reflects back onto you in some way that you think like, so I. I'm proud of the way that I was able to maintain my point of view.

[David Remnick]

The documentary Pretty Baby Brooke Shields is on Hulu starting April 3rd. You can also read her interview with Michael [e-mail] I'm David Remnick, and thanks for listening. I hope you'll join us next time.

[Narrator/Producer]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Breda Greene and Adam Howard Kalalea, Avery Keatley, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell and Gofen Mputibwele with guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Harrison Keithline, Michael May, David Gable and Meher Bhatia. Special assistance this week from Mike Dodge Weiskopf of kcrw. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Churina Endowment Fund.