The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: CNN’s Jeff Zucker, the Man Who Made Trump

Date: April 28, 2017
Host: David Remnick
Featured Guests: Jeff Zucker, Connie Bruck, Dorothy Wickenden, Bruce Eric Kaplan, Daniel Mendelsohn

Episode Overview

This episode explores the influential roles behind two major contemporary American figures: Jeff Zucker, President of CNN—and, by extension, the media’s relationship to Donald Trump—and Steve Bannon, tracing his obscured Hollywood years. The episode also includes reflective segments on television’s impact (with TV writer Bruce Eric Kaplan) and on familial ties through literature (with classicist Daniel Mendelsohn). The show is threaded with questions of personal reinvention, the intersection of media and politics, and the stories behind public personas.

Key Segment 1: Jeff Zucker on "Making" Donald Trump

Zucker's Media Decisions with "The Apprentice"

• Background: Zucker took over CNN in 2013 as it faced declining ratings. Ironically, CNN's boost came from the very figure—Donald Trump—who harshly criticized the network.
• Zucker's history with Trump: Zucker was responsible for greenlighting "The Apprentice" at NBC, giving Trump an enormous media platform.
• Quote (Jeff Zucker, 01:49):
  "The idea of a hit reality program from somebody like Mark Burnett, coupled with a PR and publicity machine like Donald Trump, I thought had the makings of a possible real success."

Insights and Discussion Points

• Trump’s television persona: Zucker emphasizes they didn’t need to mold Trump—he was already a natural performer, and his authentic presence was a feature, not a bug.
  "The key to the success of the program was that he was who he was and he was, you know, he was playing himself." (Zucker, 02:48)
• Impact of 'The Apprentice' on Trump’s career: Zucker reflects that the show was a genuine hit and amplified Trump’s national fame, which was critical to his subsequent political run.
• Quote (David Remnick, 05:04):
  "Do you agree with him that he never would have been President of the United States without The Apprentice?"
  Zucker’s answer: "...it's probably unlikely that he could have made the run for the presidency without The Apprentice." (05:09)
• On Trump's initial presidential ambitions: Zucker believes Trump started his campaign as publicity for his brand, not with a serious intent to win. (06:52)

Network Coverage of Trump

• CNN’s contentious role: Zucker candidly admits to over-airing Trump rallies during the 2015 campaign:
  "In hindsight, if we could go back, we probably wouldn’t do all of those. I think we probably did do too many of them." (08:48)
• Audience interest was a driving force:
  "There was much more audience interest in Donald Trump's rallies... he was making a lot of news at those rallies by saying things that were out of the norm." (09:27)

Addressing “Fake News” and Media Landscape

• Media polarization:
  • Zucker describes Fox News as "State Run TV," MSNBC as "the opposition," and CNN as "seeking the truth." (13:54–14:25)
• On the “fake news” charge: Zucker calls the phrase “unfortunate” and “dangerous,” lamenting its use by the President to attack a core institution (14:58).
• Quote (Zucker, 15:51):
  "What [Trump] means by fake news is news that he doesn't like. And there is a difference between news that is not real and news that he doesn't like."

Key Segment 2: Connie Bruck on Steve Bannon’s Hollywood Years

Bannon’s Obscure Past and Media Reinvention

• Bannon’s time in Hollywood: Despite claims, few in Hollywood recall Bannon as a notable power, suggesting a self-invented legend.
  "Barry Diller said, you know, neither I nor the people I know ever heard of him in his so-called Hollywood period." (21:29)
• Bannon’s creative involvement was minimal: He demanded producer credits without creative input (23:15).

Reinvention and Parallel to Trump

• Bruck points out the Hollywood tendency for self-reinvention, which Bannon embodied and exaggerated, much like Trump.
• Quote (Dorothy Wickenden, 28:12):
  "It all sounds very Trumpian, much of this."
• Connie Bruck: "The parallels are really immense." (28:16)

Bannon’s Political Turn

• Bannon’s Reagan documentary, "In the Face of Evil," marked his transition from fringe Hollywood figure to right-wing activist.
• "That fixation started there... He used inflammatory language at the time, and he talked about... how Hollywood was Sodom and Gomorrah, and that the pipes of Hollywood, sewer pipes, had to be cleansed." (30:33–31:53)

Prediction for Bannon's Political Career

• Connie Bruck is skeptical that Bannon will triumph in Washington, just as he failed to break into Hollywood power structures.
  "His history, which is repeated failure and just moving from place to place... does not suggest that somehow today in the White House, he's going to emerge triumphant." (32:37)

Key Segment 3: Bruce Eric Kaplan on Growing Up in TV

Visiting the Seinfeld Set

• Kaplan, a TV writer and cartoonist, shares memories of his first experiences on a studio lot and his lifelong obsession with TV.
• "I loved television so much that I wanted to crawl inside my television. And then when I got to be on sets, it was as if I finally did it." (19:12)
• He recalls the fake street sets, props, and the surreal, childlike wonder of inhabiting TV’s constructed worlds.
  "What could be better than not reality? Nothing is better than not reality. To me, reality is the worst." (39:45)

Key Segment 4: Daniel Mendelsohn and the Odyssey—A Father-Son Journey

Teaching and Learning from the Odyssey (41:37)

• Mendelsohn describes teaching the ancient epic, and how his father’s attendance as an octogenarian student provided new perspectives.
• His father’s unconventional views—disdain for Odysseus as a liar—and juxtaposed backgrounds (literary son and mathematical father) enriched the seminar.
• "Odysseus is beloved of people like me because he is a fabulist... My father was a mathematician where X always has to equal X. He just didn't understand what was supposed to be so appealing about this guy." (43:34)

The "Odyssey" Cruise and Changing Family Relationships

• At a mentor’s suggestion, Daniel and his father take an “Odyssey” themed cruise to sites from the poem.
• A key moment: despite being 81, his father helps Mendelsohn overcome a lifelong fear of caves, symbolizing a reversal of traditional father-son roles.
  "He said he would hold my hand. And I was just blown away by that because... I let him hold my hand and we went down." (47:37–48:59)
• The journey prompts Mendelsohn to reconsider their relationship and his own role as a father.

Reflections on Loss and Closure

• Soon after their trip, Mendelsohn’s father suffers a stroke and dies, but their shared odyssey brought emotional closure.
• "I think the great gift that I got... when my father really got sick, I felt that we had said everything we needed." (52:16)

Notable Quotes

• Jeff Zucker (on Trump and "The Apprentice", 05:09):
  "It's probably unlikely that he could have made the run for the presidency without The Apprentice."

• Jeff Zucker (on media landscape, 13:54):
  "Fox is State Run TV and is extolling the... White House. MSNBC has become the opposition. And I think CNN is seeking the truth."

• Connie Bruck (on Bannon’s record, 32:37):
  "His history, which is repeated failure and just moving from place to place... does not suggest that... he's going to emerge triumphant."

• Bruce Eric Kaplan (on TV’s magic, 39:45):
  "What could be better than not reality? Nothing is better than not reality. To me, reality is the worst."

• Daniel Mendelsohn (on closure with his father, 52:16):
  "We had many late night conversations... about deep and big subjects. And I think the great gift that I got... was that when my father really got sick, I felt that we had said everything we needed."

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Jeff Zucker interview begins: 00:59

  • On greenlighting "The Apprentice" and Trump's persona: 01:49–04:01
  • Zucker on Trump’s political ambitions: 06:52
  • Zucker reflects on CNN’s coverage decisions: 08:48–10:19
  • "Fake news" and media attacks: 14:46–16:36

• Steve Bannon’s Hollywood years (Connie Bruck & Dorothy Wickenden): 20:45–33:30

  • On Bannon’s lack of Hollywood stature: 21:29–24:40
  • Bannon’s Reagan documentary and activism: 28:43–32:22

• Bruce Eric Kaplan’s Seinfeld set visit: 34:09–40:42

• Daniel Mendelsohn on the Odyssey and his father: 41:37–54:17

  • Seminar insights: 41:37–44:42
  • The "Odyssey" cruise and father-son revelations: 46:11–52:16

This episode weaves together meditations on personal reinvention (Trump, Bannon), media responsibility, the constructed realities of TV, and the search for truth—whether in politics, storytelling, or family relationships. The conversations blend behind-the-scenes anecdotes, media critique, personal reflection, and cultural analysis, offering multiple perspectives on how public narratives are built and understood.