Podcast Summary

Podcast: The New Yorker Radio Hour
Episode: David Simon’s “The Deuce” Charts the Rise of Pornography
Date: August 28, 2018
Host: David Remnick

Episode Overview

This episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour explores three in-depth conversations:

1. David Simon discusses his television series The Deuce, which examines the rise of the pornography industry and its intersection with sex work in 1970s New York.
2. Yiyun Lee, fiction writer, reflects on her connection to place, memory, and fiction during a walk through Oakland's Mountain View Cemetery.
3. Nick Lowe, the “Jesus of Cool” British singer-songwriter, looks back on his career, the challenges of aging in rock music, and his family.

The focus of the first and central segment is the sociological and dramatic exploration of pornography’s transition from taboo to legitimate business, the realities of labor and misogyny in sex work, and the narrative approach behind The Deuce.

1. David Simon on The Deuce and the Birth of Modern Pornography

Main Discussion Points

The Origins of the Deuce

• The Deuce was inspired by real stories about the rise of pornography, collected through a contact who had been a mob front for the Gambino family on 42nd Street.
  • “We walked out of Mark’s apartment... after listening to the guy for three and a half hours. He wasn’t done... We walked around the block and said, my God, I think we’re going to do a story about the rise of pornography.” — David Simon (02:13)

From Prohibition to Legitimacy

• The legalization of pornography in NYC stemmed more from court decisions than the sexual revolution.
  • “It was the courts, more than the sexual revolution that did this.” — David Remnick (04:20)
  • Simon elaborates on how courts, unable to consistently define “obscene,” essentially stopped enforcing prohibitions, enabling the sex industry to flourish rapidly with mafia investment.

The Labor of Sex Work

• Simon’s work centers the dignity and structural realities of all kinds of labor—even when undignified.
  • “Even when it’s undignified. That’s exactly right... I think that’s what we’re trying to convey, and then we’re trying to show you, well, so where does the power and the money route itself?” — David Simon (06:20)
• The Deuce straddles the line between individual experience and broader economic and power structures.

Misogyny and Writers' Room Dynamics

• Misogyny is a core theme. Simon acknowledges that to tell an authentic story, his team had to include women writers and invite argument and critique.
  • “This could in no way be the boys version of sex work, the boys version of pornography... We needed the woman’s voice in the room. We needed to be argued out of our own sensibilities.” — David Simon (07:59)
• Example: Changing a character’s name from a derogatory street nickname to a real name at the urging of women writers.
  • “Can this person have a name? ... She absolutely can have...” — David Simon (09:41)
• Lisa Lutz wrote an especially “fundamentally feminist” scene: a raw, honest diner conversation among sex workers (10:01–10:49).

Pornography’s Societal Impact

• Simon connects the ubiquity of porn to shifting gender attitudes and public tolerances, even within politics.
  • “We’ve gone so fast. I’m not sure we’ve taken stock of just how profoundly you think it’s affected consciousness.” — David Remnick (11:55)
  • “I think the blunt ubiquity of pornography has made the terminology and the demeanor with which men address women now... I think it’s transformed it.” — David Simon (12:38)

Simon’s Politics and Principle

• Simon identifies as left-leaning but is a “First Amendment literalist” — staunchly in favor of free speech, even for things he finds objectionable.
  • “I got no patience for anything that interrupts the idea of open speech. I find what’s going on on college campuses... incredibly naive...” — David Simon (14:14)
• He supports ideas further left than current politics, such as universal basic income, recognizing the impact of automation on work (15:28–15:47).

Legacy of Journalism

• Reflects on his journalism roots and hints at future writing projects.
  • “There are parts of me that think there’s gonna come a point where you don’t want to sit in those goddamn deck chairs at 4 in the morning... and at that point, maybe you should be writing prose again.” — David Simon (16:10)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Deuce’s mission:
  “If we fail... to create a world where real people seem to be laboring and trying to scratch out an existence... then I think we probably screwed up our mission.” — David Simon (06:20)
• On how porn and misogyny intertwine:
  “Porn itself influences the misogyny directed at... and the misogyny pushes porn. I think it’s quite a cycle.” — David Simon (13:51)

2. Yiyun Lee: Cemeteries, History, and Fiction (17:39–23:44)

Main Discussion Points

• Lee takes listeners through Oakland’s Mountain View Cemetery, reflecting on her love of visiting cemeteries worldwide and imagining the lives buried there.
  • “There are a lot of human stories buried in cemeteries. And I write fiction, so I like to imagine lives already lived...” — Lee Yiyun (18:14)
• She discusses the experience of immigration, finding a sense of home in California and how this seeps into her writing.
  • “I realized California is coming into my fiction too. So more and more, California feels native to me.” — Lee Yiyun (21:40)
• Individual family stories and local history (e.g., the Mazzanti graves) prompt deeper empathetic connections and narrative impulses.

3. Nick Lowe: Aging, Music, and Family (25:03–38:07)

Main Discussion Points

Processing Loss and Growing Older

• Lowe mourns the recent loss of friends, notably longtime producer Neil Brockbank, reflecting on how mortality shapes his work and mindset.
  • “He worked for me for years and we collaborated. He also used to tell me if something I did was complete shit. Well, he died unexpectedly and really threw me for quite a loop.” — Nick Lowe (27:10)

Rejecting Rock Star Clichés

• Lowe has embraced aging in his music–rather than denying it like some contemporaries.
  • “To accept the fact that I was getting older and to actually sort of embrace it and use it as sort of an advantage instead of trying to hide it or be embarrassed about it... it sort of worked.” — Nick Lowe (28:54)

Family Memories

• He reminisces on his father, a Royal Air Force pilot, and how their worlds diverged, especially musically.
  • “He didn’t want really get it, you know... My mum was my big champion, you know, she sort of taught me how to play the guitar and sing.” — Nick Lowe (31:45–32:04)
• A moving story about his father’s final days and the symbolism of a half-shaved mustache (33:48–34:18).

Personal Identity

• Lowe frames his shift from potential pilot to musician not as rebellion, but as finding a life “that would have me.”
  • “‘A life that would have you and a life that would have me. How well put. Yes, it was a life that would have me. Exactly.” — Nick Lowe (35:49–36:03)

Key Timestamps

• [00:09] - Introduction (David Remnick)
• [01:28–03:18] - David Simon details the real-life inspiration for The Deuce
• [04:20] - How courts (not just sexual revolution) legalized porn
• [06:09] - Simon on the dignity of labor
• [07:32–08:53] - Writers’ room dynamics and the need for women’s perspectives
• [10:01–10:49] - Feminist scene in The Deuce (discussion of menstruation among sex workers)
• [11:09–13:51] - The impact of porn’s ubiquity on society and misogyny
• [14:14–15:47] - Simon’s political philosophy (free speech, universal income)
• [16:08–16:35] - Journalism and future ambitions
• [17:39–23:44] - Yiyun Lee on cemeteries and belonging in California
• [25:03–38:07] - Nick Lowe on aging, music, loss, and self-discovery

Tone and Style

• Reflective, thoughtful, and candid throughout, with Simon and Lowe both displaying self-awareness and humor even when addressing weighty issues.
• Lee’s segment is poetic, sensory, and deeply empathetic.

Summary Takeaway

This episode deftly weaves together explorations of sex, labor, identity, and artistic legacy. Simon’s critique of both the structures of power and the culture they produce, paired with his commitment to authenticity and inclusivity in storytelling, sets the intellectual tone. Lee anchors fiction in the lived landscape and memory, while Lowe brings the conversation home—reminding us that finding belonging, whether in art or in life, is often about listening as much as it is about asserting one’s own voice.

Notable Quotes Recap

• “We needed the woman’s voice in the room. We needed to be argued out of our own sensibilities.” — David Simon (07:59)
• “If we fail... to create a world where real people seem to be laboring... then I think we probably screwed up our mission.” — David Simon (06:20)
• “A life that would have you and a life that would have me. Exactly.” — Nick Lowe (36:03)
• “I like to imagine lives already lived and lives that are in the past so I can reimagine their lives and then I could make up a story.” — Yiyun Lee (18:16)