Podcast Summary
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Episode: Don’t Worry, the Robots Can’t Do Your Job—Yet
Date: December 12, 2017
Host: David Remnick
Overview
This episode delves into how advanced automation and robotics are transforming the American workforce, particularly in industries reliant on manual labor. Sheila Kolhatkar, New Yorker staff writer, investigates whether robots and smart machines are fueling job losses and driving increasing income inequality—issues that tangled themselves up in the 2016 presidential election. The episode features insights from economist Andrew McAfee (MIT), robotics expert Stephanie Tellex (Brown University), Chris Gahagan (CEO of Symbotic), and contextual reflections on historical and policy solutions. The tone is thoughtful, analytical, and occasionally wry, balancing both marvel and caution regarding what automation means for jobs, communities, and the future of work.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
The Changing Nature of Automation and Its Effects on Jobs
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Traditional vs. Modern Automation
- Historically, new technologies destroyed some jobs but created new, better ones ([01:04]).
- Current automation, powered by AI and robotics, seems different, possibly eliminating more jobs than it creates; this may drive income inequality.
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Economist’s Anxieties
- Andrew McAfee (MIT): CEOs privately express concern that their own tech investments may eliminate vast numbers of jobs.
"I can identify the technologies that we're investing in right now that are going to put very, very large numbers of people in my organization out of business. Do not quote me on this." — Andrew McAfee [01:46]
- Andrew McAfee (MIT): CEOs privately express concern that their own tech investments may eliminate vast numbers of jobs.
State of Current Robotics
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Advancements: Smarter, More Dexterous Machines
- Sheila Kolhatkar visits Professor Stephanie Tellex, who focuses on robotic dexterity and object recognition ([02:50]).
- Robots are much better, but still limited:
"If I am a 90% pick success rate and I'm dropping 10, I am not a cost effective robot." — Stephanie Tellex [03:23]
- Adapting robots to new objects and environments remains a major challenge.
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Real-World Industry: Warehousing Automation
- Symbotic, a company near Boston, is automating warehouse tasks (e.g., stocking and pallet-building) almost entirely, reducing the need for human workers ([04:43]-[07:36]).
- Robots stack goods in store-preferred order, improving efficiency, saving not just on wages but also on operational costs like lighting (i.e., "dark warehouses").
“When we build the pallet robotically, we build it in the order that the store wants it. ... That product is taken immediately from the truck out to the store for restocking.” — Chris Gahagan [06:48], [07:17]
- Installing such systems is expensive, but returns through efficiency gains and labor savings can be significant.
- Robots stack goods in store-preferred order, improving efficiency, saving not just on wages but also on operational costs like lighting (i.e., "dark warehouses").
- Symbotic, a company near Boston, is automating warehouse tasks (e.g., stocking and pallet-building) almost entirely, reducing the need for human workers ([04:43]-[07:36]).
Societal Implications & Political Underpinnings
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Job Market Transformation and Geographic Disparity
- McAfee notes that though the US economy continues to add jobs, these are often lower-paying, less stable, and lack the classic middle-class security ([08:50]):
"Instead of turning out lots of really solid middle class jobs... the job creation engine is kicking out lots of lower middle class jobs that are lower paid, they're more precarious, the hours are all over the map, and they're just not as good a job." — Andrew McAfee [08:50]
- Automation may not be a “hot button” in Washington, but it's at the root of anxiety about diminished opportunity—a feeling that played a role in the last presidential election.
“These job market challenges brought on by technology and globalization are not the full explanation for Donald Trump as our president. However, it is really hard for me to imagine that a message of isolationism and nationalism... would have played to the electorate in 1996, in 2000.” — Andrew McAfee [09:58]
- McAfee notes that though the US economy continues to add jobs, these are often lower-paying, less stable, and lack the classic middle-class security ([08:50]):
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Personal Reflection: The Technologist’s Dilemma
- Professor Tellex expresses anxiety about her own role in potentially fueling inequality and labor shifts ([11:07]):
“If those problems are really caused by me, by robotics, that's bad… if we don't tell the story right, someone else is gonna tell it for us and I'm not necessarily gonna like how that story goes.” — Stephanie Tellex [11:07]
- Professor Tellex expresses anxiety about her own role in potentially fueling inequality and labor shifts ([11:07]):
Potential Solutions and Societal Responses
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Universal Basic Income vs. Meaningful Work
- Universal Basic Income (UBI) is discussed as a safety net but viewed skeptically.
“I don't think lack of money is the great problem. It's a lack of dignity, glue for a community, meaning, purpose in life, stuff to do to fill up the hours of the week, things like that, things that a job is really, really good at, giving to people.” — Andrew McAfee [13:08]
- Universal Basic Income (UBI) is discussed as a safety net but viewed skeptically.
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Need for Big Policy Shifts
- The history of response to technological surges (i.e., creation of universal K-12 education in response to electrification/internal combustion) suggests America can adjust—but isn't preparing now.
“My huge frustration is I just don't even see the will or the desire or the awareness of the need to come together and to do big things.” — Andrew McAfee [15:09]
- The history of response to technological surges (i.e., creation of universal K-12 education in response to electrification/internal combustion) suggests America can adjust—but isn't preparing now.
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Geographic and Educational Issues
- Economic fate is becoming zip code-dependent, and both the innovative economy and jobs are geographically concentrated.
- Mobility rates are falling, making adjustment harder ([14:23]).
Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments
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On Robots’ Limitations:
"It's not going to take very many drops before you're like, don't want you robot. I'm going to go get my water bottle myself." — Stephanie Tellex [03:23]
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On the Realities of Displaced Workers:
"Adding 2 or 3 million more of those people to the ranks of the unemployed is not a recipe for stability. I don't think." — Andrew McAfee [11:49]
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On Societal Denial:
"Automation doesn't ever seem to come up in Washington. Members of Congress never talk about it. ... But it's the future. There are a lot of things we could be doing to prepare for it, but the first step we need to take is... to just acknowledge that it's happening." — Sheila Kolhatkar [15:37]
Timestamps for Important Segments
- Automation and Job Loss — Introduction: [01:04]
- MIT’s Andrew McAfee on CEOs’ Concerns: [01:41]
- Robotics Dexterity Limits (Tellex at Brown): [02:50]-[04:09]
- Real World Warehouse Automation (Symbotic): [04:43]-[07:36]
- Economic and Political Impact — Election, Inequality: [08:50]-[10:37]
- Technological Change and Solutions (UBI, Education, Policy): [11:49]-[15:37]
- Final Thoughts on Denial and Preparation: [15:37]
Conclusion
The episode paints a nuanced picture of technological advancement’s double-edged sword. On one side, robotics and automation hold promise for efficiency and economic gains; on the other, they threaten stability and shared prosperity by eroding the types of jobs that built and sustained the American middle class. The discussion underscores that while robots can’t do all our jobs yet, they are changing work and society—and public dialogue and policy are lagging behind.
Further Reading:
- Sheila Kolhatkar’s article, “Welcoming Our New Robot Overlords,” available at newyorkerradio.org