The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode 12: Sarah Koenig on "Serial," and a Resilient Poet
Date: January 8, 2016
Host: David Remnick
Podcast by: WNYC Studios and The New Yorker

Overview

This episode features in-depth conversations and storytelling on three diverse topics:

• An interview with Sarah Koenig, creator and host of the podcast Serial, discussing its impact, journalistic style, and the evolution from season one to two.
• A profile of poet Robin Coste Lewis, interviewed by Hilton Als, tracing her artistic journey following a traumatic brain injury.
• Reflections on education reform with Jelani Cobb revisiting his alma mater, Jamaica High School, and its closure.
• Bonus: A segment with John Seabrook and his son Harry about the changing landscape of pop music and its influence across generations.

1. Sarah Koenig on Serial: Podcasting, Ethics & Empathy

[00:28–18:54]

The Beginnings: From Russia to Podcasting

• David Remnick recounts meeting Sarah Koenig in Moscow in the 1990s when she was a rookie reporter for The New York Times.
  "It was very, very clear that she had everything it takes to become a first-class reporter." (00:28)

Transition from Print Journalism to Serial

• Crime reporting in print: Koenig describes herself as too empathetic for conventional court reporting, often seeing truth on both sides.

  • Quote: "I was always really suckered by both sides... There’s shades of truth here that are a lot subtler than we generally acknowledge in this system." (02:30, Sarah Koenig)

• Why switch from newspapers to audio: She was uninspired by traditional assignments and inspired hearing This American Life on the radio:

  • "That is what I want to do." (04:27)

The Phenomenon of Serial

• Season 1’s murder mystery resonated with listeners far more than Koenig anticipated:
  • "People really like a murder story. I didn’t understand the true crime genre." (05:19)

Grappling with True Crime Ethics

• Koenig is unsettled by the commodification of crime stories, but feels Serial resists this trend:
  • "I see others doing it and I like to criticize them, but I don’t think I did that." (05:43)
  • Remnick draws a parallel to In Cold Blood and its ambiguity in blending reporting and sensationalism.

On Empathy & Understanding in Storytelling

• Koenig aspires to foster empathy without judgment:
  • "At least don’t judge before you’ve tried to understand. That’s what I want." (07:47)

Choosing Season 2’s Subject: Bowe Bergdahl

• The story came via Mark Boal, who had recorded 25 hours of interviews with Bergdahl; Koenig herself never interviewed him directly.
  • On access and ethics: "We’ve certainly not paid Bowe any money and as far as I know there’s not been any money exchanged between Page One and Bowe." (09:23)
  • Koenig had to rely on existing, intimate recordings: "He was trying really hard to explain himself in a way that I find rare." (10:57)

Bergdahl’s Motivation, In His Words

• Excerpt of Bergdahl explaining his mindset before leaving his post:
  • "I was trying to prove to myself. I was trying to prove to the world... that I was capable of... being that person." (12:01, Bowe Bergdahl)
  • "It wasn’t that I just decided, hey, I’m going to do this to prove that I could do it... I was trying to find a solution to the problem at hand, and I just tied into it this idea, kind of like two birds with one stone." (12:38, Bowe Bergdahl)

Sarah Koenig’s Distinctive Voice and Process

• Writing and performance are heavily scripted yet deliberately personal.
  • "I need to know what you make of all this... Otherwise, I don’t care. You need to make me care." (14:06, Julie Snyder as quoted by Koenig)
  • Objective: build trust with listeners: "You can trust me because I’ve done my homework... for me to get away with having a little fun in it, you have to earn [it]." (15:34)

Impact on Journalism and Podcasting

• Koenig sees Serial as blending established journalistic and serialized storytelling elements, but with unique week-to-week suspense.
  • "People found that they were interacting with it in their brains in the same way that they’re interacting with... escapist entertainment... It’s journalism. And I’m interacting with journalism in the same way that I interact with escapist entertainment." (17:20)

Memorable Quotes

• "Having a voice in your stories is not new. But there was something about the bringing together of all these things." (17:20)
• "You want the story itself to innately matter." (18:36, David Remnick)
• "A lot of people, listening helps make things matter." (18:38, Sarah Koenig)

2. Robin Coste Lewis: Poetry, Disability & Resilience

[19:33–30:30]

Prompt for the Conversation

• Poet Robin Coste Lewis won the National Book Award for her debut collection Voyage of the Sable Venus, inspired by images of Black women in Western art.

Uncovering Hidden Histories in Art

• The title comes from 18th-century pro-slavery imagery, leading to a research project uncovering Black women’s overlooked presence in art.
  • "So many black women in exhibitions all over the world... but you wouldn’t think of it, because who would think to look...?" (21:10, Robin Coste Lewis)

Personal Crisis: The Accident and Aftermath

• Lewis suffered a catastrophic fall, resulting in traumatic brain injury, losing the ability to read or write, and facing intense daily limitations.
  • "I fought really hard for a year to teach myself the alphabet again... the language control of my brain was badly damaged." (23:04)
  • Her new writing process: only able to write one line per day, which shaped her poetic style—"the best damn line I can think of." (24:47)

Triumph & New Freedoms

• Despite being told she’d never write, teach, or have a child, Lewis achieved all three.
  • "They told me I could never write again, teach again, read again, and not become a mother." (25:30)
  • On becoming a mother: "I tried and tried and tried for many, many years. And then it finally happened. The deep irony is I found out I was pregnant four days after my father's funeral." (27:36)

Living with Brain Injury

• Lewis views her brain’s quirks as artistic gifts:

  • "I still very much appreciate that my brain has become an odd little bedfellow... that's kind of sexy to me. I like that you see things that other people aren't seeing." (28:00)

• Parenting with disability:

  • "It's like, mommy's brain is in a wheelchair... I feel like I'm constantly repressing his little spirit in ways in order to stay asymptomatic and take care of him." (29:29)

Notable Quotes

• "That calm brain damage, the gift that keeps on taking, you know." (24:30, Robin Coste Lewis)
• "Partly because if I'm gonna die, I can write whatever the hell I want... I'm so free, yes." (24:33–24:48)
• "There's nothing like being annoyed to get... the juice is going." (25:46, Robin Coste Lewis)
• "You wake up with him and it's like, look, we're here." (28:40, Hilton Als / Lewis)

3. Jelani Cobb Returns to Jamaica High: Schools, Community, and Change

[34:43–45:56]

The Story of Jamaica High School’s Demise

• Once prestigious, Jamaica High in Queens closed in 2014 after years of decline and policy changes.

  • "...Produced several Pulitzer Prize winners and Olympians. As recently as the mid-80s... cited as an outstanding school on the national level." (34:46, David Remnick)

• Journalist and alumnus Jelani Cobb revisits, reflecting on the school’s racial and cultural diversity and the sense of community it fostered.

  • "Jamaica was the kind of place where a black kid from the south side of the borough and a Pakistani Muslim... could bond over our mutual interest in breakdancing." (35:09)

Systemic Changes and Decline

• City policies and changing demographics led to a drop in performance and support—even as the building kept its grandeur.
• Former student Kimberly Walcott discusses the loss of academic programs and resources.

Closure and Broader Significance

• A past school shooting in 1986 continued to shape perceptions decades later.

  • "Unfortunately, school shootings are common now. But at this point in time, we did not have any frame of reference for something like that happening." (42:55, Jelani Cobb)

• Cobb reflects on why communities rally to save “failing” schools—not just for nostalgia, but belief in their potential and the loss of opportunity for future students.

Memorable Quote

• "When we close schools, we're not just closing the school... we're closing a particular history." (43:50, Jelani Cobb)

4. Music Across Generations: John and Harry Seabrook

[46:45–54:39]

Pop Music Bonds

• John Seabrook, inspired by his son Harry’s love of contemporary pop, became fascinated by the behind-the-scenes songwriters shaping today’s hits.
  • "Some guys talk about sports with their kids, but music, that's something that we totally kind of saw eye to eye on and bonded over." (49:00)
• Together, they discuss how pop production has become an "assembly line," and how the music's raunchier lyrics and sonic complexity mark it as different from previous generations.
  • "I realized that this giant change had taken place... There had been this enormous change, and now songs were tracks... the whole thing is a giant assembly line." (52:57, Harry Seabrook)
• Harry: "It's sort of disenchanting." (53:22)

Memorable/Funny Moments

• John: "I don't think the book would exist without you, man." (54:21)
• Father and son camaraderie, sharing and sometimes resisting each other's musical tastes.

Notable Quotes & Highlights

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Highlight | |-----------|------------------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:30 | Sarah Koenig | "I was always really suckered by both sides...There’s shades of truth here..." | | 05:19 | Sarah Koenig | "People really like a murder story. I didn’t understand the true crime genre." | | 07:47 | Sarah Koenig | "At least don't judge before you've tried to understand. That's what I want." | | 12:01 | Bowe Bergdahl | "I was trying to prove to myself. I was trying to prove to the world..." | | 15:34 | Sarah Koenig | "You can trust me because I’ve done my homework..." | | 17:20 | Sarah Koenig | "Having a voice in your stories is not new...But bringing together..." | | 21:10 | Robin Coste Lewis | "So many black women in exhibitions all over the world...but you wouldn't think of it." | | 24:30 | Robin Coste Lewis | "That calm brain damage, the gift that keeps on taking, you know." | | 27:36 | Robin Coste Lewis | "The deep irony is I found out I was pregnant four days after my father's funeral." | | 43:50 | Jelani Cobb | "When we close schools, we're not just closing the school...we're closing a particular history." | | 52:57 | Harry Seabrook | "It's kind of like the whole thing is a giant assembly line..." |

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Sarah Koenig Interview: 00:28–18:54
• Robin Coste Lewis Conversation: 19:33–30:30
• Jelani Cobb on Jamaica High: 34:43–45:56
• John & Harry Seabrook on Pop Music: 46:45–54:39

Episode Takeaways

• Sarah Koenig explores the ethics, empathy, and innovative style underpinning Serial, and how her work gently bends, but doesn't break, traditional journalism’s rules.
• Robin Coste Lewis turns profound adversity into artistic voice and agency, redrawing the limits of what’s possible after catastrophic injury.
• Jelani Cobb’s walk through Jamaica High is a meditation on community memory, systemic neglect, and the layered value of public institutions.
• John and Harry Seabrook’s dialogue illustrates how music bridges generational deep-dives—and how the pop industry’s mechanics both enchant and disillusion.

Perfect for listeners seeking layered, empathetic storytelling and critical thought across reporting, art, education, and pop culture.