The New Yorker Radio Hour — Episode 26: Syrian War Crimes, Country Music, and a Central Park Salad

Date: April 15, 2016
Host: David Remnick
Podcast: The New Yorker Radio Hour by WNYC Studios and The New Yorker

Overview

This episode weaves together three distinct narratives, highlighting the breadth of The New Yorker’s reporting and storytelling. The show opens with a whimsical audio tour of Todd Neazel’s apartment before shifting to a foraging adventure for wild salad greens in Central Park, led by Patricia Marx. The tone then pivots sharply to an in-depth, harrowing exploration of the Syrian civil war’s war crimes, investigative efforts to document them, and the prospects for future justice. The episode closes on lighter notes, with a book and movie discussion and a celebration of country music.

Segment 1: The Todd Neazel Audio Tour (00:00–03:18)

Highlights & Key Points

• Comedic audio tour of Todd Neazel’s apartment, narrated by “Debbie” (Stephanie Jansen), satirizing the earnestness and detail-obsession of museum guides.
• Humorous look at everyday clutter, quirky possessions, and neighborly intrigue—e.g., the mysterious presence of a black lace brassiere and faux-marble tables.
• Memorable quote:
  “If you enjoyed yourself, call Todd Neazel and tell him so. He can be reached at 3am; he likes pizza, 10 pies at a time. And Rizzo’s delivers.”
  — Debbie [02:58]

Segment 2: Foraging in Central Park — “A Central Park Salad” (03:18–10:29)

Main Theme

Patricia Marx and producer Stephen Valentino join naturalist Steve Brill and his daughter, Violet, on a humorous, insightful foraging trip in Central Park, poking fun at foodie trends and city constraints.

Key Discussion Points

• Shift in food trends: Former obsession with exotic imports now replaced by the ultra-local, even “hyperlocal” like ingredients foraged from Central Park.

  • “Today, on the other hand, the most fashionable food is local. In fact, the closer to your apartment that it was born and raised, the better.”
    — Patricia Marx [03:35]

• The foraging tour: Led by Steve Brill (“the Mr. Rogers of Central Park”) and his energetic daughter, Violet.

  • Violet’s nature facts and enthusiasm add levity:
    “She reminded me of a vegan Shirley Temple.”
    — Patricia Marx [05:14]

• Illegality and hazards: Foraging in Central Park is, technically, illegal. Steve Brill himself was once arrested (and released after eating the evidence). Confusion over edible versus poisonous plants, like hemlock and crocuses, brings comedic uncertainty.

  • “With all this hemlock, you'd think there'd be more dead dogs around here.”
    — Patricia Marx [06:59]

• Doubt and bravado:

  • “Can we eat them [crocuses]?... No, they're poisonous.”
    — Violet Brill (by phone) [08:52–09:13]
  • “I don’t believe her. I think we should eat it.”
    — Patricia Marx [09:18]

• City salad economics and social commentary:

  • “Salad bars in Manhattan are like $8.99 a pound. This is why Steven and I returned to Central Park to test our knowledge and save money on greens.”
    — Patricia Marx [05:51]

• Mock dangerous culinary ambitions:

  • “We should have a dinner party and serve this, and people would be so sick. You wouldn't need to have an entrée.”
    — Patricia Marx [10:13]

Segment 3: The Syrian War Crimes Investigation (10:29–39:10)

Main Theme

A profound, meticulously reported investigation by Ben Taub into the Assad regime’s documented war crimes, the efforts to build legal cases against perpetrators, and the complexities of international justice.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Syria’s Atrocities and Documentation Effort

• Scale of the catastrophe: Assad’s regime has detained tens of thousands, killed hundreds of thousands, and displaced half the country—sparking a massive refugee crisis engulfing Europe.
  — David Remnick [11:06]
• Failure of global response: Disillusionment among international officials; shifting hope to documentation for future justice.
  • “A large number of high-level UN and government officials...had left their positions. It’s as if this conflict was so hopeless and so politically messy, there was just nothing they could do to end the killing.”
    — Ben Taub [12:12]

The CIJA and Evidence Building

• Introduction to CIJA:
  • The Commission for International Justice and Accountability (CIJA), directed by William “Bill” Wiley, is secretly building war crimes cases using smuggled regime documents.
  • “In secret, this group has built a case that’s ready to go to trial...this has never happened in the history of international criminal justice.”
    — Ben Taub [14:09]
• Risks and methods:
  • Evidence is extracted at great risk; smugglers face death, detention, and suspicion from both regime loyalists and jihadi groups.
  • “Paper’s heavy...We’ve extracted from Syria approximately 600,000 pages...You need vehicles, those vehicles need to get through checkpoints.”
    — Bill Wiley [28:49]

Inside the Assad Regime’s Repression

• Chain of command:

  • CIJA’s evidence traces at-scale atrocities back to documented regime decisions, creating links to the highest officials.
  • “They want to show that these crimes are happening across the country in all security branches and that they link back to the crisis cell’s instructions.”
    — Ben Taub [37:55]

• Testimony of Mazen Alhamada:

  • A survivor of multiple arrests, torture, and imprisonment, Mazen’s story illustrates the horror and bureaucratic perversion of Assad’s apparatus.
  • “There was a 17-year-old boy behind him as he thumbprinted these documents...I promised myself that if I get out from jail, that I will tell everyone what happened just because of this kid.”
    — Mazen Alhamada, translated [32:16]
  • On torture: “They started beating him and demanding the names of opposition leaders…At the beginning, they were using cigarettes...Then they stripped him naked and put a plumbing clamp on his penis.”
    — Ben Taub, Mazen via translator [22:11–23:32]
  • “A UN investigation...said that the medical staff at Hospital 601 had been co-opted into the maltreatment of detainees. It also said that many patients had been tortured to death in this facility.”
    — Ben Taub [34:15]

• Defector ‘Caesar’ and photographic evidence:

  • A police photographer defected with 55,000 images of corpses, now critical evidence for war crimes investigations.
  • “Bodies...kept in the toilets in other detention facilities…[Caesar] hid flash drives in his socks containing 55,000 photographs.”
    — Ben Taub [35:26, 35:41]

The Elusiveness of Justice

• Building a case without a court:
  • Systematic documentation continues even without immediate legal mechanisms.
  • “When the day of justice does arrive, they’ll have better evidence than anyone has had since Nuremberg.”
    — Ben Taub [38:15]
  • “At some point...the most serious perpetrators in Syria...will be brought to justice.”
    — Bill Wiley [38:43]

Segment 4: The Politics and Prospects of International Justice (39:10–49:09)

Main Theme

David Remnick interviews Professor Kevin Jon Heller, expert on war crimes trials, discussing the challenges in holding Assad (and similar figures) accountable for atrocities.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

• Limits of international prosecution:
  • “I don't think we will ever see Bashar al Assad prosecuted by the ICC. Obviously, that would require a referral from the Security Council, and Russia and China have already vetoed one attempt to do that.”
    — Kevin Jon Heller [40:32]
• Flawed precedents and lessons:
  • The Saddam Hussein trial serves as a cautionary tale—justice can falter, creating martyrs and provoking instability instead of healing wounds.
  • “It ended up turning him really into a martyr and just further destabilizing Iraq. That's the last thing we would want for an Assad in Syria.”
    — Kevin Jon Heller [43:10]
• Examples of successful trials:
  • “Really probably you do look at the Rwanda tribunal and the Yugoslav tribunal...They were credible, effective international institutions.”
    — Kevin Jon Heller [45:41]
• On defending war criminals:
  • “I would absolutely defend him...every defendant deserves a zealous defense...Your job as defense attorney is to ensure that they're convicted of what they actually did and not...what the prosecution says they did.”
    — Kevin Jon Heller [48:26; 48:31]
• Systemic challenges:
  • Justice is slow and often partial—the expectation of swift and total accountability is unrealistic in international law.

Segment 5: Book, Movie, and Country Music Picks with Kathryn Schulz (49:09–54:42)

Main Theme

A return to lighter fare, with Kathryn Schulz sharing recent cultural delights—books, films, and music.

Highlights

• Elizabeth Bishop’s posthumous poetry:
  • The pleasure of reading her drafts in Edgar Allan Poe and the Jukebox.
• Film recommendation — “The Prestige”:
  • Kathryn is captivated by Christopher Nolan’s magician rivalry period piece, especially its cleverly repeated plot twists.
  • “The inability to solve it was thrilling.”
    — Kathryn Schulz [51:32]
• Love of country music:
  • “I think I might be one of the very few...New Yorker staff writers who is a dyed in the wool country music fan.”
    — Kathryn Schulz [52:03]
  • Country music praised for storytelling—Charlie Parker’s appreciation for “the stories, man.”
  • Recommends Miranda Lambert (with Pistol Annies) and their song “Trailer for Rent.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the futility and necessity of justice:

• “You just can’t. You just don’t want to be found with this stuff. You have this regime material—ipso facto, you work for the regime. Conversely...your American spy. So one way or another, you’re going to lose.”
  — Bill Wiley [30:05]

On the horrors of the Assad regime:

• “As soon as they touched my backside, I said, I will admit...you've got the worst methods being used against you. You've gotta just, tell them what they want.”
  — Mazen Alhamada, via Moaz Mustafa [24:38]
• “I swore, I promised to myself that...when I get out from jail, that I will tell everyone what happened just because of this kid.”
  — Mazen Alhamada, via Moaz Mustafa [32:33]

On war crimes trials:

• “If we can give the Nazis a fair trial, and many of the Nazi defendants themselves said that they received fair trials, you know, I would like to think that no matter how dangerous the suspect, that we could give them fair trials today.”
  — Kevin Jon Heller [44:12]

On food, humor, and local obsessions:

• “If I die, I think probably the cause would be complications due to lesser celandine. That was too near hemlock.”
  — Patricia Marx [07:33]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–03:18 – Todd Neazel audio tour
• 03:18–10:29 – Central Park foraging adventure
• 10:29–39:10 – Syrian war crimes investigation, survivor testimony, evidence gathering (includes explicit torture testimony at [23:03–24:55])
• 39:10–49:09 – Conversation with Prof. Kevin Jon Heller on the challenges of achieving justice
• 49:09–54:42 – Kathryn Schulz’s book, movie, and country music picks

Episode Takeaways

• Breadth of content: The episode traverses tone and substance—moving from playful lampooning and urban food adventures, through rigorous, urgent investigative journalism on war crimes, and back to culture and personal taste.
• Syrian segment impact: The CIJA’s work showcases both the depth of Syrian suffering and a glimmer of hope for justice, even if only in the long view.
• Sobering realities: Justice for atrocity is rare, slow, and complicated by realpolitik—but documentation and hope persist.
• A touch of joy: Even amid weighty themes, The New Yorker’s curiosity for storytelling—whether in salad, poetry, magic, or song—shines through.