The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode 39: The Gawker Sex-Tape Blowup, and George Saunders on Trump
Release Date: July 15, 2016
Host: David Remnick (WNYC Studios & The New Yorker)

Episode Overview

This episode delves into several compelling and varied stories:

• The legal, cultural, and ethical saga surrounding Gawker Media, Hulk Hogan, and Peter Thiel: Host David Remnick interviews Gawker founder Nick Denton about the lawsuit that toppled the era-defining media company.
• Writer George Saunders on the campaign trail with Donald Trump: Fiction writer Saunders discusses the unsettling and illuminating experience of reporting from Trump rallies and wrestling with the boundaries of empathy in political dialogue.
• The rapidly changing landscape of TV news coverage and the effects of the 2016 campaign on the industry: Composer Michael Friedman explores the lived experience of a network news producer.
• The search for new antibiotics in the soil under our feet: Rafi Khachaturian reports on scientist Slava Epstein’s quest to unlock unseen microbial worlds.

The episode is marked by sharp humor, moments of poignancy, and a close look at how media, politics, and science shape American life.

Key Segments & Insights

1. Comedy Opener: "A Few Words About Elliot"

[00:39 - 04:05]

• Performed by Parker Posey, written by Demetri Martin.
• A tongue-in-cheek letter from a parent to a camp counselor, describing her son Elliot as a complex and comically monstrous child.
  • "Whatever you do, do not resist. If you resist, he will bite down harder and start shaking his head from side to side in order to rip off as much flesh as... but probably not." – Grace Eldridge (Posey), [03:00]
• Functions as a whimsical, absurdist palate cleanser and nods to the storytelling spirit of the show.

2. The Gawker Sex-Tape Blowup & Media Ethics

[04:39 - 20:20]

Context and Stakes

• Host David Remnick summarizes the Gawker v. Hulk Hogan case as pivotal for questions of press freedom vs. privacy, and details the $140 million judgment against Gawker.
• He profiles Gawker founder Nick Denton's brash, confrontational approach—"Without any apology, he modeled Gawker from the start after the British tabloids with all their rudeness and half-truths." [04:39]

Interview with Nick Denton (Founder of Gawker)

• On embracing the "villain" persona:

  "Somebody called me in a blog post Dark Lord Balthazar, because I, I suppose I was a Dark Lord."
  —Nick Denton, [06:27]
  Denton believes inhabiting that role shielded him from criticism but admits he may have embraced it too readily.

• Gawker’s editorial philosophy:

  "Our impetus was always, when in doubt, put it out."
  —Nick Denton, [07:00]
  Remnick challenges this, noting mainstream places like The New Yorker use stricter standards.

• The price of radical transparency:

  "The snark or criticism can go over the line towards something that seems mean spirited."
  —Nick Denton, [09:37]
  Denton connects this to a broader culture of unfiltered expression online.

• On ‘outing’ and gay identity in the media:
  Denton, himself gay, defends reporting on the sexual orientation of figures like Peter Thiel and Tim Cook, calling out the double standard in media’s treatment of straight vs. gay lives.

  "The people who complain most about outing... tend to be straight people."
  —Nick Denton, [11:00] Remnick presses him on who gets to make those decisions.

• The Peter Thiel feud:
  In 2007, Gawker ran a piece headlined "Peter Thiel is totally gay, people." Denton claims the real annoyance was Gawker's irreverent coverage of Thiel’s political views rather than his sexuality.

  "He's a strange sort of Nietzschean libertarian..." —Nick Denton, [14:02]

• The Hulk Hogan lawsuit & Thiel’s secret funding:
  Denton asserts the newsworthiness of the Hulk Hogan tape, referencing judges who agreed. The trial’s outcome, he says, was heavily shaped by a darkly humorous moment:

  "...AJ Delario...made a dark New York blogger joke that a tape of a four-year-old would clearly not be acceptable...[the quote was] taken out of context, used in the trial, and used by the New York Post and others to hang us." —Nick Denton, [15:47]

• Gawker’s fate and media business model:
  With Chapter 11 bankruptcy looming and a pending sale to Ziff Davis, Denton argues Gawker’s profitability and innovative e-commerce model make it a viable brand.

  "We attract an audience which is equivalent to that of major newspaper groups...we're not even solely dependent on advertising." —Nick Denton, [17:56]

• Legacy and regrets:

  "Journalism now is more vibrant and more diverse and everything is being discussed. Everything does eventually come out."
  —Nick Denton, [19:36]

3. George Saunders on the Trump Campaign Trail

[22:06 - 34:04]

Setting the Scene

• Fiction writer George Saunders recounts reporting for The New Yorker at Trump rallies, capturing the tension, spectacle, and performance art of political confrontation.
  • Sound clip: Protesters and Trump supporters shouting "Trump is racist! So are you!" [22:06]

Wrestling with Empathy & Political Morality

• Saunders admits he took the assignment out of curiosity but was overwhelmed by the task’s complexity and emotional weight:

  "I think early on...I was trying so hard to be fairer to the Trump supporters that I was kind of missing the element of danger in it." —George Saunders, [24:09]

• The Buddhist idea of "idiot compassion" is discussed—empathy so reflexive it neglects to challenge harmful views:

  "...what do you do when someone has an idea that's hurtful to other people and dangerous? ...You'll do what the Buddhists call idiot compassion...you don't call a spade a spade." —George Saunders, [24:25]

On Race, Nostalgia, and Dialogue

• Saunders shares recognizing both a rational basis and a deep anxiety—especially racial uneasiness—among Trump supporters:

  "A lot of Trump supporters are feeling a kind of a racial nostalgia...demographics of the country are shifting. ...There's a racial element to the anxiety that they feel, and...it didn't seem quite true to me to say they're all racists." —George Saunders, [27:10]

• He recalls connecting with a grieving mother of a slain police officer, describing being shaken from liberal assumptions:

  "I was sitting there going, 'Oh my God, I'm becoming a convert.' ...You become less hopeful that real communication could happen." —George Saunders, [28:20]

On Gentleness & Political Discourse

• Saunders concludes that civility—"the existential value of gentleness"—is crucial if fragile in the current era:

  "Having some baseline curiosity, some intention of maintaining affection for the person, some sense that their views are as valid as yours..." [29:28]

• He finds hope in honest conversations—even ones ending with confusion:

  "...the conversation would become more respectful because there was an actual human being that was being discussed...When people say, yeah, that's a tough one. I really don't know. That moment seemed to me really promising." [33:31]

4. Song from the Campaign Trail: The Changing Face of TV News

[34:55 - 41:32]

• Composer Michael Friedman sings text from interviews with a network news producer in LA, reflecting on repetitive disaster coverage, the shift toward entertainment in news, and Trump as a "ratings juggernaut."

  • "Since I started as a fact checker, a job that doesn't exist anymore, I wanted to do stories that would make my mom cry in Chicago...now I’m interviewing JLo in Las Vegas at the Billboard Awards." —Network news worker (in song), [36:20]
  • "When Trump showed up with his Mar A Lago ratings juggernaut of tackiness at the debates, it was the first time I'd ever seen the entertainment shows like Entertainment Tonight show up for the Republican debates." [37:37]

• The worker expresses nostalgia for a more unifying media era, as well as ambivalence and a drive to "appear impartial" even when supporting Hillary Clinton.

5. The Unseen Microbial World: A Story of Scientific Discovery

[43:02 - 54:53]

Meet Slava Epstein

• Staff writer Rafi Khachaturian profiles Slava Epstein, a Russian immigrant and microbial ecologist at Northeastern University.

  • "If you take a textbook and you eliminate 99% of the words and you leave 1% of randomly distributed words on the page, how much will that book tells you? Well, that's about how much we know about the microorganisms on our planet, about 1%." —Slava Epstein, [43:49]

• Epstein’s journey: Blocked from physics in the Soviet Union due to anti-Semitic quotas, he turned to biology, emigrated, and landed in the U.S.

The Great Plate Count Anomaly

• Classic attempt to cultivate bacteria fails for 99% of species. Epstein’s insight: grow bacteria where they live.
  • "A few grams of soil...is a few billion cells, tens of thousands, if not millions of species...If we knew how to grow all the organisms from...would probably keep the drug industry going for years just from a couple of grams." —Slava Epstein, [48:53]

Discovery and Hope for New Antibiotics

• After trial and error (and a date-night deadline), Epstein and colleague Kim Lewis invent a "washer-and-membrane" container to culture microbes in their natural habitat—leading to potential new antibiotics like texobactin, effective against superbugs.
• Vision for the future: Theoretical robotic "Gulliver" lab for use on Earth, Mars, or Europa.
  • "We may be able to use it and study microbial life on Mars or on Europa..." —Slava Epstein, [54:18]

Most Notable Quotes & Moments

• Nick Denton on Gawker’s legacy:
  "Journalism now is more vibrant and more diverse and everything is being discussed. Everything does eventually come out." [19:36]

• George Saunders on the Trump phenomenon:
  "Trump is kind of this incredible, like, locus of all these weird American energies." [25:41]

• Saunders on dialogue:
  "Having some baseline curiosity, some intention of maintaining affection for the person, some sense that their views are as valid as yours..." [29:28]

• Slava Epstein on scientific discovery:
  "We're wonderfully ignorant. And I'm saying wonderfully because it gives you not only a challenge, but also an immense opportunity." [43:49]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Comedy Opener: "A Few Words About Elliot" – [00:39-04:05]
• Gawker, Nick Denton & Media Ethics – [04:39-20:20]
• George Saunders on Trump, Empathy, and Political Culture – [22:06-34:04]
• Song from the TV News Front Lines – [34:55-41:32]
• Rafi Khachaturian on Bacteria & the Microbial Frontier – [43:02-54:53]

Tone & Style

The episode balances dark humor and outright absurdity with sharply observed, insightful journalism and thoughtful reflection on current events, American culture, and scientific advancement.

Useful For

• Listeners interested in the collision of media, ethics, and technology
• Readers seeking nuanced takes on the Trump era and political dialogue
• Audiences fascinated by the ways science and curiosity shape our world

All advertisement, intro, and outro segments have been omitted.