The New Yorker Radio Hour: Episode 42

Main Guests: Paul Simon & Congressman John Lewis
Host: David Remnick
Original Air Date: August 5, 2016

Episode Overview

This episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour features two American icons: musician Paul Simon and civil rights leader Congressman John Lewis. Through in-depth conversations—Simon with poet Paul Muldoon, and Lewis with David Remnick—the show explores the nature of creativity, the evolution of American music, the roots of the civil rights movement, and the enduring struggle for justice.

Segment One: Paul Simon on Songwriting, Influence, and Artistry

Interviewed by Paul Muldoon at the 2013 New Yorker Festival

[00:31] Origins and Early Songwriting

• Influences:
  • Simon began songwriting in his teens, inspired by 1950s rhythm and blues and early doo-wop.
  • His father, a professional bass player, taught him that “most of the songs from that era were all written to the same chord structures.”
• Notable Early Song:
  • The first song Simon wrote was “The Girl For Me,” very much in the doo-wop tradition.

Quote:

“Also, when you’re young and you’re writing, there’s really no problem with the words because you don’t know anything. So whatever you say is fine, because you don’t know anything.” – Paul Simon [04:01]

[04:35] Changing Creative Process

• As Simon matured, songwriting shifted from a simultaneous process (music and words together) to a more intricate, layered approach.
• He became more aware of complexities like “irony and the yin and yang of everything.”
• Improvisation on guitar remains central but with greater attention to meaning and nuance.

[06:49] The Making of Graceland

• Big Shift in Method:
  • A key change started with the Graceland album. Simon moved from writing with guitar alone to building songs around existing tracks and rhythms, especially inspired by South African music.
• World Music Fusion:
  • Example of “Boy in the Bubble” and collaboration with South African musicians.
  • The track “Graceland” emerged from assembling elements from various musical traditions: “It sounds like a mix between South Africa and... Soweto, hillbilly rockabilly.”
  • Accidental creation: Simon recounts that a South African guitarist added a relative minor chord—rare in local music—by referencing Simon’s previous work.

Quote:

“What we have here, really, is world music. It's really people doing what they heard and vaguely remember and trying to imitate what it was.” – Paul Simon [12:00]

• Lyrics and Inspiration:
  • The phrase “I’m going to Graceland” began as a placeholder, but stuck.
  • The opening lines came from a real drive through the Mississippi Delta.

Quote:

“The Mississippi Delta was shining like a national guitar.” – Paul Simon, lyric quoted [10:00]
“There are aspects of the creative process that you really don’t understand. And that’s part of the great joy of it, is because it’s a mystery.” – Paul Simon [13:20]

[14:19] Reflections on Heroes and Influences

• Simon discusses his four personal heroes: Mickey Mantle, Elvis Presley, JFK, and Lenny Bruce.
• Tells an anecdote about listening to Elvis sing “Bridge Over Troubled Water.”
• Observes the African roots of rhythm in American music, referencing Bo Diddley’s beat as an early influence.

[19:19] Anatomy of a Song: “Darling Lorraine”

• Simon walks through the composition of “Darling Lorraine,” using humor and real-time storytelling.
• The improvisational, surprising process: Simon didn’t know where the story would go, including the song’s tragic turn.
• The song’s progression mirrors a real relationship with conflict, reconciliation, and loss.

Quote:

“As soon as I wrote that line, I said, I had no idea Lorraine is going to die. I’m sick to death of you, Lorraine. Never should have said that.” – Paul Simon [24:54]

• Paul Muldoon reflects:

“No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.” [26:23]

Memorable Moment:

• Simon recounts being recognized by a Peruvian musician in the Amazon, both connecting over each other's music; she plays “The Sound of Silence.”

“I sang doo dee doo da doo da da da da da. And she knew it and she played it and she said, I know an American song. I said, okay, let's hear it. And she played the Sound of Silence.” – Paul Simon [27:10]

Segment Two: Congressman John Lewis on Life, Leadership, and the Civil Rights Movement

Interviewed by David Remnick at the New Yorker Festival, 2015

[31:10] Childhood and Family Roots

• Grew up in rural, segregated Pike County, Alabama, as one of ten children.
• Early experiences with racism, Jim Crow laws, and economic hardship.
• Childhood dreams of ministry, practicing sermons on chickens.

Quote:

“Some of those chickens that I preached to during the 40s and 50s tended to listen to me much better than some of my colleagues listening to me today in the Congress.” – John Lewis [32:27]

• Early nonviolent protest: boycotting chicken meals when his parents wanted to eat them.

[35:05] The Impact of Emmett Till

• The 1955 lynching of Emmett Till galvanized Lewis, as did images in Life magazine and the black press.
• Also inspired by Rosa Parks; first direct encounter with segregation when denied a library card.
• Returned to that same library decades later for a book signing—finally receiving his first library card.

Quote:

“I never went back to the Pike County Public Library... until July 5, 1998, for a book signing of my book Walking with the Wind. And hundreds of black and white citizens showed up. The end of book signing, they gave me a library card.” – John Lewis [34:36]

[36:13] Training for Nonviolent Protest

• Studied philosophies of nonviolence with Jim Lawson, including role-playing extreme scenarios to build resilience.
• Emulated Martin Luther King Jr. and other leaders; determined to “redeem the soul of America” through love, peace, and nonviolence.

Quote:

“We accepted the idea that the philosophy of nonviolence is one of those immutable principles that you couldn’t deviate from. No matter what.” – John Lewis [37:46]

• Arrested 40 times during the 1960s, five times as a Congressman.

[39:38] Selma, Voting Rights, and March on Washington

• Deeply involved in SNCC, worked across the South on voter registration and civil rights actions.
• Describes the murder of civil rights workers Goodman, Schwerner, and Chaney, and its impact on the movement.
• The urgency of dramatizing racial injustice to spur legislative change.

[42:20] Tensions Within the Movement

• Candid about the divergence between nonviolence (King, SCLC, his own path) and more militant approaches (Malcolm X, Black Power).
• Refused to get caught up in “rhetoric” alone, focusing on concrete organizing and actions.

[45:05] First Encounter with Malcolm X and President Kennedy’s Legacy

• Met Malcolm X shortly before the March on Washington; Malcolm was skeptical about its impact, seeing it as co-opted by the establishment.
• Remembers shifting attitudes from President Kennedy before and after the March.

Quote:

“He kept saying, you did a good job. And when he got to Dr. King, he said, you did a good job, and you had a dream.” – John Lewis [46:04]

• On J. Edgar Hoover’s spying and the need for truth and transparency, even concerning his own FBI files.

[48:12] Hope, Progress, and Ongoing Struggles

• Remains optimistic despite setbacks and continuing racial inequity.
• Candid reflections on dysfunction in Congress:

  “I think there are people who go to bed mean, they dream mean, they get up mean, and be mean for the rest of the day until they go back to bed and just mean some more. ...They don’t believe in government.” – John Lewis [50:31]

[51:23] Views on Black Lives Matter and the Next Generation

• Expresses admiration for BLM activists, viewing them as part of a continuing lineage.

  “Maybe they’re picking up where we left off, but they’re part of an extension of that movement.” – John Lewis [51:58]

[52:33] The Ongoing Battle for Voting Rights

• Traces history of the Voting Rights Act and its challenges from the Supreme Court’s decisions.
• Warns of renewed attempts to suppress the vote in various states, driven by demographic changes and fear of a “browner America.”

Quote:

“People shouldn’t be afraid, should embrace the future. As the Pope said, we all are immigrants.” – John Lewis [54:05]

Notable Quotes (with timestamps)

• “Whatever you say [as a young songwriter] is fine, because you don’t know anything.” – Paul Simon [04:01]
• “It’s really people doing what they heard and vaguely remember and trying to imitate what it was.” – Paul Simon, on world music [12:00]
• “No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.” – Paul Muldoon, quoting Robert Frost [26:23]
• “Some of those chickens that I preached to during the 40s and 50s tended to listen to me much better than some of my colleagues... in Congress.” – John Lewis [32:27]
• “We had to insist that the Congress pass a voting Rights Act.” – John Lewis [42:00]
• “To lose hope is to give up. You have to be optimistic. You have to believe somehow, in some way, we’re gonna work it out.” – John Lewis [48:12]
• “Maybe they’re picking up where we left off, but they’re part of an extension of that movement.” – John Lewis, on Black Lives Matter [51:58]
• “People shouldn’t be afraid, should embrace the future. As the Pope said, we all are immigrants.” – John Lewis [54:05]

Episode Flow & Recommended Timestamps

• Paul Simon on Songwriting: [01:31] – [28:44]
  • Song craft, influences, “Graceland” deep dive, “Darling Lorraine,” musical cross-currents, stories of inspiration.
• John Lewis on Civil Rights: [30:46] – [54:46]
  • Childhood, Emmett Till and motivation, philosophy of nonviolence, SNCC, Selma, working with King, challenges in Congress, connection with current movements, future of voting rights.

Conclusion

This episode provides rare, intimate insight into how two of America’s most influential figures—one in music, one in social change—wrestle with the demands of creativity, integrity, and purpose. Paul Simon’s openness about the mystery of artistic creation complements John Lewis’s unyielding belief in courage, nonviolence, and hopeful action—across generations and into the present day.