Podcast Summary: The New Yorker Radio Hour, Episode 47: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and the Ups and Downs of Ayahuasca
Airdate: September 9, 2016
Host: David Remnick
A co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker

Overview

This episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour explores modern cultural, political, and personal issues through a series of in-depth conversations and storytelling segments. The episode's centerpiece is a probing interview with basketball legend Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, discussing race, sports, activism, and his new book. The episode also features a moving profile of filmmaker Kirsten Johnson, an immersive first-person account of taking ayahuasca, and reflections on Chinese history, urban ants, and contemporary mindfulness. The tone is reflective, witty, earnest, and occasionally irreverent.

1. Poetry for Modern Mindfulness: Jenny Allen’s Odes to Everyday Life

• [00:41–02:59]
  • Jenny Allen recites whimsical poems about everyday moments with self-effacing humor and insight, setting a thoughtful tone.
  • Topics include the confusion of modern suburban life and the perils (and pettiness) of office politics and cinema-going.
  • Notable quote: “If I have done so now, here in the parking lot of Stop and Shop, may I smile with self compassion and not curse my cluelessness, as the cars where I live are all Subarus and all the same model and all the same Jasmine green. A bewildering forest of Foresters.” (Jenny Allen, 00:41)

2. In Conversation: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on Sports, Race, and Social Justice

• [03:20–16:33]
  • DNC Appearance and Racial Politics
    • Kareem recalls his speech at the Democratic National Convention and discusses why this particular political moment drew him out.
    • “I wanted to go this year because I thought that whatever happens in this election will be very important for our country.” (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 04:38)
  • The Resurgence of Racism and Xenophobia
    • Discusses the rise in racial tensions and xenophobia, attributing some of it to demographic shifts and heightened visibility due to technology.
    • “A lot of people are noticing a change in our country…seeing that change taking place and not being able to do anything has made a lot of people uptight. And I think Donald Trump recognized that and decided to take advantage of it.” (05:36)
  • 1968 Olympics and the Price of Protest
    • Kareem reflects on skipping the Olympic Games in protest, the resulting criticism, and his thoughts on activism in sports today.
  • Education and Mediocrity
    • Concerns about America’s declining education standards; cites underinvestment in schools as a root problem.
    • “We become too comfortable with mediocrity.” (07:43)
  • Role Models and Burdens of Representation
    • Discusses the complexities of being seen as a “role model” and the problem with equating individual success with nationwide equality.
    • “Sometimes it feels as if you’re more the source of false hope and crushed dreams.” (David Remnick quoting Abdul-Jabbar, 08:25)
  • Paying College Athletes
    • Strong criticism of NCAA hypocrisy and the exploitation of student-athletes.
    • “If the amateur experience was supposed to be so important, why aren’t the coaches participating in it? They’re taking home millions.” (Kareem, 11:12)
    • Recounts personal experience with ticket scalping during college, underscoring the lack of financial support for athletes.
  • Health, Retirement, the NFL’s Dangers
    • Kareem expresses concerns about concussions and health issues in football.
    • “I don’t know if it is, because I think the concussions are inevitable.” (13:28)
    • Touches on the physical toll of professional athletics even after retirement.
  • Transition from Sports to Writing
    • Discusses how writing offered fulfillment and discusses the pressure of public attention.
    • “I wanted the opportunity to excel, but… it was also a lot of pressure.” (16:09)

3. Kirsten Johnson & Tad Friend: Storytelling Through the Camera’s Eye

• [17:08–30:21]
  • An Artist’s Approach
    • Staff writer Tad Friend and filmmaker Kirsten Johnson discuss her film “Cameraperson,” a collage of personal and professional moments.
  • Visual Instinct and Empathy
    • Kirsten describes how her intuition and attraction to certain visuals guide her work. Her filmmaking is deeply empathetic.
    • “A lot of times it’s just what I’m attracted to… something happening with the interaction between his pants, these blue seats, the sky that just told a story of blue…” (Kirsten Johnson, 20:10)
    • On feeling responsible for her subject’s portrayal: “The footage absolutely shows how much I love my mother… and yet it is also absolutely a betrayal of her.” (24:18)
  • Making Darkness Visible
    • Johnson reflects on how trauma and loss are ever-present, shaping the stories she captures.
    • “Death and destruction is in the world. There’s invisible evidence of it in many places in the world. Sort of like trauma.” (Kirsten Johnson, 26:14)
  • Technique and Perspective
    • Demonstrates the craft of framing people—how choices in camera work parallel choices in narrative writing.
    • “You saw how suddenly all the different lens lengths changed the story completely. And did you see how beautiful she was in the close up?” (Kirsten Johnson, 29:36)

4. Chinese History, Childhood, and Fables: With Jiang Fan

• [30:21–34:33]
  • Jiang Fan, former fact-checker turned writer, discusses a documentary about Wu Zetian and the parallels between powerful women throughout history and the present election cycle.
  • Shares a formative Chinese fable (Mr. Dong Guo and the Wolf) that shapes perceptions of trust, compassion, and national identity in China.
  • “The wolf has often been used as a metaphor for the US, for Japan, for the Dalai Lama… but the Chinese lesson to themselves is that ultimately they have their own agenda. And if the Chinese do not arm and protect themselves, they will be eaten by the wolf.” (Jiang Fan, 33:05)

5. Ayahuasca: The Allure and Reality of Psychedelic Medicine

• [34:38–48:51]
  • Michael Pollan Article and New Trends
    • David Remnick introduces the topic of ayahuasca and recent research into its therapeutic promise.
  • Ari (Ariel) Levy’s Reporter's Journey
    • Ari shares her preparation for and experience with an ayahuasca ceremony in Brooklyn.
    • “If I took this drug, I would puke my guts out and possibly experience my own death.” (Aria Levy, 36:02)
  • Interview: Dennis McKenna, Ethnobotanist
    • McKenna recounts his long history with ayahuasca, the science behind how it works, and its therapeutic potential.
    • “What’s emerged for me as important is its potential therapeutic effects—treating intractable depression, PTSD, certain kinds of addictions… possibly OCD.” (Dennis McKenna, 39:10)
    • On prohibition: “Legislators, who are usually misinformed about almost everything, decided, oh, this is a great threat, and we have to ban it.” (Dennis McKenna, 39:49)
    • Contrasts 'bad trips' and their value: “The dark experiences are often the most useful because you can get deeply into some of these conflicted places.” (Dennis McKenna, 42:28)
  • Ari’s Ceremony Experience
    • Describes a chaotic, emotional, messy ayahuasca group session—vomiting, tears, catharsis, and self-discovery.
    • “As the vomit is pouring over my body, I’m thinking to myself, in a second, I am gonna be irate and disgusted. But it never came. I was not irate. I was not disgusted. I was amused. That was my ayahuasca trip.” (Aria Levy, 48:13)
  • Neuroscience Insights
    • Explains the “default mode network” and how ayahuasca mimics effects of deep meditation.
    • “Maybe it worked on me by shutting down my default mode network.” (Aria Levy, 45:50)

6. The Secret Life of Urban Ants with Amy Savage

• [49:12–53:59]
  • Amy Savage, Rutgers biologist, describes field studies of ants in urban environments and how their foraging changes due to city life.
  • “In street medians on Broadway, over 90% of them went for fats, which wasn’t at all what we were expecting. But the same species living in forests and parks in Manhattan went for sugars.” (Amy Savage, 51:51)
  • Talks about how human ‘litter’ changes ant behavior and ecology, highlighting unexamined connections between our lives and urban wildlife.
  • “If you feed ants lots of carbohydrates, then they eat insects more quickly. They’re more voracious towards insects.” (Amy Savage, 53:06)

7. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on role models:
  “Although you are proof it can be done, like a happy lottery winner waving a million dollar ticket, the odds are so astronomically against others that it sometimes feels as if you’re more the source of false hope and crushed dreams.” (08:25)
• Dennis McKenna on psychedelic prohibition:
  “Legislators, who are usually misinformed about almost everything, decided, oh, this is a great threat, and we have to ban it.” (39:49)
• Aria Levy after ayahuasca:
  “I used to be disgusted, but now I’m so amused.” (48:37)
• Kirsten Johnson on capturing the invisible:
  “Death and destruction is in the world. There’s invisible evidence of it in many places… trauma… the film, for me, is acknowledging my mother’s loss… we all suffer these sort of fundamental traumas…” (26:14)

8. Segment Timestamps (for Easy Navigation)

• Poetry for Modern Mindfulness: 00:41–02:59
• Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on Activism, Sports, and Society: 03:20–16:33
• Kirsten Johnson: “Cameraperson” & The Ethics of Filming: 17:08–30:21
• Jiang Fan on Wu Zetian & Chinese Fables: 30:21–34:33
• Ayahuasca Special – Ari Levy and Dennis McKenna: 34:38–48:51
• Ants in the City – Amy Savage: 49:12–53:59

9. Closing Thoughts

This episode weaves together reflections on mindfulness, personal transformation, the burdens and rewards of public life, the hidden worlds of city ants, and the ethical complexities of storytelling. It’s anchored by curiosity, skepticism, and the search for meaning in both the extraordinary and the mundane.

Listeners seeking depth, humor, and new perspectives on culture, wellness, and history will find much to savor in this wide-ranging hour.