Episode 53: Putting Trump in the White House, Playing Andrew Bird in the O.R.

Summary

The New Yorker Radio Hour – Episode 53: “Putting Trump in the White House, Playing Andrew Bird in the O.R.”

Date: October 21, 2016
Host: David Remnick
Featuring: Roger Stone, Max Boot, Sean Wilentz, Amy Davidson, Atul Gawande, Andrew Bird, Evan Osnos (moderator)

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Overview

This special episode, recorded live at the New Yorker Festival, is split into two engaging segments:

• Part 1: A prescient panel discussion, moderated by Evan Osnos, on what a Donald Trump presidency could mean for America, held just weeks before the 2016 election and at the peak of its unpredictability.
• Part 2: An intimate conversation between New Yorker medical writer/surgeon Atul Gawande and singer-songwriter Andrew Bird, discussing music, creativity, medicine, and mortality, including live performance.

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Part 1: Imagining the First Term of President Trump

(00:28–23:24)

Main Theme

The panel takes the prospect of a Trump presidency seriously, asking: If the unthinkable happens and Donald Trump is elected, what would America look like, both domestically and globally?

Panelists:

• Evan Osnos (moderator, New Yorker writer)
• Roger Stone (Trump surrogate and political strategist)
• Max Boot (national security analyst, lifelong Republican dissenter of Trump)
• Sean Wilentz (Princeton historian)
• Amy Davidson (New Yorker political columnist)

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Republican Party’s Crisis & Trump’s Power

• Max Boot expresses heartbreak over the GOP, breaking his lifelong voting streak to support Clinton:

  “That streak will be broken in a month because I will vote for Hillary Clinton without any hesitation.” (02:45)

• Roger Stone frames the election as a “national crisis,” not just a campaign, due to total polarization:

  “There is no common ground.” (03:13)

2. Executive Power & the Dangers of a Trump Presidency

• Max Boot highlights the president’s sweeping authority, warning that Trump could drastically alter foreign policy, specifically NATO:

  “He could destroy NATO ... All he has to do is come out and say, I will not honor our commitments... As commander in chief, he has the ultimate authority and he will exercise it.” (04:33)

• Amy Davidson cautions about Trump’s potential executive overreach, referencing historical Supreme Court decisions such as Korematsu:

  "Within the context of war, you can treat different citizens differently depending on their backgrounds... something that will be a great concern under President Trump." (07:00)

3. Election Legitimacy & Conspiracy

• Roger Stone expresses skepticism about election integrity:

  “I'm more concerned about election rigging. If the Russians can hack and rig a machine...” (05:49)

• Max Boot accuses Trump of racist insinuations regarding poll watching:

  “What Trump is saying seems to be pretty not so coded racism…” (06:28)

4. Cabinet Prospects & Republican Responsibility

• Stone predicts trouble for prominent GOP names rumored as cabinet picks, advocating for anti-establishment appointees:

  “I would hope that he would select people who are not neocons, people who are not connected to the two party duopoly and the 30 years of bad decision making...” (10:49)

• Max Boot and Amy Davidson see confirming Merrick Garland as the Supreme Court nominee as an act of GOP responsibility:

  “I think that the Republicans would be well advised to confirm Judge Garland, who is a pretty moderate liberal.” (11:47)

5. Russia, Putin, and Trump

• Max Boot notes that the DNC hacks were, with high confidence, orchestrated by Russia:

  “Not some random 400 pound couch potato ... but was in fact done by Russia using WikiLeaks and Julian Assange as a front...” (12:44)

• Amy Davidson suggests focusing less on blaming Russia and more on understanding U.S. political discontent:

  "If we talk about Putin fixing the election and fixate on that too much, it's ... a way of avoiding the question of why so many Americans do support Donald Trump." (14:27)

6. Political Culture and GOP Responsibility

• Amy Davidson dives into Trump’s long history of bigotry, connecting today’s crisis to GOP actions:

  “Who Donald Trump was, not in terms of the tackiness, not in terms of the crudeness, in terms of the raw racism, was clear to a lot of New Yorkers about ... the Central Park Five.” (16:37)

7. Populism and the Future

• Davidson identifies a global pattern:

  “This surge of populism here is not isolated... We’ve seen a surge of this kind of anti-immigrant racist language in France...” (21:16)

• She underscores the need for both parties to genuinely listen and engage:

  “Maybe listen is a better word than talk … because there is something happening.” (21:41)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Roger Stone, on conceding the election:

  “He should, unless there is any refutable evidence to the contrary.” (05:59)

• Max Boot, on Trump and war:

  “This is a guy who’s actually said, I love war, I want it. I’m always sorry I didn’t get a purple heart.” (15:38)

• Amy Davidson, on Trump’s legacy in GOP:

  “I resist the idea ... that Donald Trump is a complete alien force who’s descended on the Republican Party.” (17:53)

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Segment Timestamps

• Trump panel begins: 00:28
• Executive power concerns (NATO): ~04:33
• Election legitimacy debates: ~05:22
• GOP accountability (Garland discussion): ~11:36
• Russia and the campaign: ~12:44
• Political culture analysis: ~16:16
• Populism and international parallels: ~21:16
• Segment ends: 23:24

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Part 2: Andrew Bird and Atul Gawande — Music, Medicine, and Life

(26:20–54:12)

Main Theme

A unique crossroads conversation between acclaimed musician Andrew Bird and surgeon-writer Atul Gawande, exploring the creative process, personal vulnerability, and the surprising overlap between music and medicine.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Finding a Path in Music

• Bird’s musical journey began with Suzuki violin at age 4, without seeing music as a profession:

  “It was my mom’s idea... I still don’t [see it as a job].” (27:35)

• Bird describes musical exploration, chafing at rigid classical traditions in college in favor of improvisation and eclectic influences:

  “I want to bring improvisation back to classical music. And they’re like, no, just do the program.” (30:00)

2. Whistling, Looping, and Solo Performance

• Bird on including whistling in his music:

  “I whistle nonstop. If I’m not eating, talking or sleeping, I’m whistling... I didn’t think to put that on a record until Swimming Hour.” (31:14)

• The loop pedal as a tool for engaging live audiences:

  “Just trying to use everything at my disposal to keep people’s attention … fill my lungs with air and just hold a note until people stopped their conversations...” (32:16)

3. Songwriting: Between Obscurity and Directness

• Bird and Gawande discuss the balance between accessibility and complexity, paralleling The New Yorker’s editorial style:

  Bird: “My approach ... has generally been, yeah, a little bit perceived as maybe opaque... but it’s there for you if you want to dig into it.” (33:08)

4. “Puma” — Music Reflects Medicine

• Gawande shares how Bird’s deeply personal song “Puma” mirrored his experience as a surgeon:

  “As soon as I heard that line, I’m an endocrine surgeon. I do thyroid cancer care. And I’m like, this is a song about thyroid cancer.” (35:19)

• Bird describes chronicling his wife’s battle with cancer, and how the song explores both fear and resilience:

  “How could I go ahead and make another record and have gone through what we went through without and completely omit these things that were so real?” (36:24)

5. Artistic Vulnerability

• Gawande on the importance of vulnerability in both art and medicine:

  “Being that direct is not something that you have wanted to do before. And I was really struck by your letting it hang out there and be that personal.” (35:19)

• Bird reflects on leaving the ambiguity behind for emotional directness:

  “I paused for sure working on this song ... but basically, the song is about how my wife handled this really scary thing right after we had a kid.” (36:24)

6. Mortality, Cancer, and Meaning

• Bird muses on cancer as an existential reality:

  “Does cancer have a purpose? There seems to be some genetic ... Is there some reason cancer exists?” (38:45)

• Gawande responds, grounding the conversation in medical science and philosophical acceptance:

  “Your DNA undergoes mutations all the time, we generate a cancer cell almost every day, and your body clears it out ... It is one of the few ways in which we’re aware of our fragility.” (38:45)

7. Creating Connection through Song

• Bird and Gawande talk about the surprising reach and resonance of art, especially when rooted in something deeply personal.

8. “Valleys of the Young” — The Layers in Songwriting

• Bird reveals the song’s complexity, writing about parental love, growing older, and the hidden struggles beneath the surface:

  “It imagines two parents that are going to the aid of their adult child who’s just tried to commit suicide... so that was kind of a sucker punch in the song...” (41:57)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Bird on the challenges of honesty:

  “How could I go ahead and make another record and have gone through what we went through without ... these things that were so real and pervasive and just visceral?” (36:24)

• Gawande’s reflections on fragility:

  “It is one of the few ways in which we’re aware of our fragility… we’re still animal, mortal beings.” (39:52)

Segment Timestamps

• Conversation begins: 26:20
• Bird discusses his musical childhood: 27:35
• Whistling and looping performance: 31:11
• The making of “Puma”: 34:15–36:24
• On cancer and mortality: 38:45
• On “Valleys of the Young”: 41:57
• Segment ends: 43:35

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Live Performances by Andrew Bird

• “Capsized” (46:37–50:27): Bird delivers an energetic solo performance, showcasing his unique use of violin, guitar, and looping.

• “Left Handed Kisses” (51:42–54:12): Bird closes the episode with an atmospheric, poetic ballad.

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Summary Takeaways

• The Trump panel was a remarkably candid and sometimes tense exploration of what was, at the time, an extraordinary political possibility, with panelists warning of broad executive power, the fragility of American institutions, and the dangers of conspiracy, racism, and foreign influence.
• The Andrew Bird/Atul Gawande segment offered an unusual intersection of arts and sciences, with honest reflection on how personal crises, especially illness, become embedded into art and serve to connect performer, listener, and even practitioner.
• The episode ultimately showcased The New Yorker’s ability to foster deep, challenging, and empathetic conversations at the seams of politics, culture, and personal vulnerability—refusing easy answers, but offering much to ponder.

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Recommended listening for a provocative, thoughtful interweaving of politics in crisis and the healing/connecting power of art.

Transcript

[Andrew Bird]

Floor 38.

[Max Boot]

I'm so excited to be having a.

[Roger Stone]

Conversation with someone when they have that revelation.

[David Remnick]

How does this work as a national story?

[Atul Gawande]

Well, it's.

[Andrew Bird]

From one World Trade center in Manhattan.

[Atul Gawande]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour.

[Amy Davidson]

A co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

[David Remnick]

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Every year, the New Yorker throws a huge festival that lasts the whole weekend. We bring in all kinds of people from the arts, entertainment, politics, history, technology, everything for live conversations with the New Yorker's writers and editors. Today, we're going to hear two of those events. The singer and songwriter Andrew Bird will talk with a fan of his, Atul Gawande, who's a medical reporter for the New Yorker. And he's also a practicing surgeon. And when he's in the operating room, he listens to Andrew Byrd's music. But we're going to start off in a very different place. In the end game of the presidential election that just will not go away. We've assembled a group of experts to talk about the first term of President Trump. Yeah, I said it. President Trump. Now, as of today, that might seem hypothetical, let's put it that way. Our panelists met on the weekend the Billy Bush tape hit the news, and Trump's fall on the poll was already starting to spiral downward. But as Harry Truman reminds us by way of Casey Stengel, it ain't over till it's over. And the way this godforsaken election has gone, with videotapes turning up and Russians hacking and accusations of rigging, it would be a mistake to pretend that a Clinton victory is an absolute lock. So let's take a few minutes to consider seriously, what would a Trump administration look like? You might want to grab a libation of some sort. The conversation includes Roger Stone, a political strategist who calls himself a Goldwater conservative.

[Roger Stone]

Well, first of all, thank you for having me here. And now I know how the Christians felt when they were led into the arena. See, this is. They call you a conspiracy theorist when you challenge the mainstream media narrative in any way. No, I'm a conspiriologist. I try to ferret out the facts. I don't carry water for the Republicans or the Democrats, the Bushes or the Clintons. I do think we have a political elite that has run the country into the ground.

[David Remnick]

Max Boot is a commentator and national security analyst.

[Max Boot]

Well, Evan, I'm heartbroken by the condition of the Republican Party. I've been a Republican a long time. I have always voted for the Republican presidential candidate, going all the way back to 1988, when I voted for George H.W. bush, who is a good man. And that streak will be broken in a month because I will vote for Hillary Clinton without any hesitation, because.

[David Remnick]

And Sean Willance is a Princeton University historian and a Clinton supporter who has studied presidential campaigns going back to the founding of the republic.

[Roger Stone]

It's an abnormal election. It's really not an election. It's a national crisis. I mean, this is not an election. We call it an election because there are parties and it's been there. But something happened that is abnormal. There is no common ground. There cannot be any common ground because of the nature of the process that we're.

[David Remnick]

They're all joined by the New Yorker's political columnist Amy Davidson, who's written critically about both candidates, but makes absolutely no bones about her preference. And the conversation is moderated by Evan Osnos, who reports for the New Yorker from Washington. Here's Evan.

[Evan Osnos]

So the day after Max, this is a serious question in terms of what happens on the day after this election, because let's assume for the moment that's our topic today, that President Trump has been elected. There are a lot of Republican national security officials who have declared their intention never to support Donald Trump. I Live in Washington, D.C. i know folks who say to me, look, this is Washington. If he's elected, it's not a political choice to go into a Trump administration. It's a patriotic act. If your president calls, you go. Do you think other Republican national security officials would join a Trump administration?

[Max Boot]

I'm sure some would.

[Evan Osnos]

Should they?

[Max Boot]

I think it's a very difficult choice. I mean, I personally could not possibly serve under somebody I regard as an American fascist. Others will make a different decision.

[Evan Osnos]

And if they do, will you come out publicly? And do you think other Republicans would come out publicly to denounce that choice?

[Max Boot]

Well, I would focus not on denouncing the appointees. I would focus on denouncing the president, who is the decision maker. And I think, as you pointed out, Evan, in your excellent piece on what Trump could do as president, it's actually pretty terrifying to understand the extent of executive authority in this country. There is so much he can do that Congress would not serve as a check and balance on him, especially not in the realm of foreign policy, where he can do so many destructive things by fiat. I would say, you know, he could actually destroy NATO, an alliance that has been the most successful in world history and has kept the peace in Europe for more than six decades. He could destroy it overnight. All he has to do is come out and say, I will not honor our commitments to all these freeloaders in Europe. If they're invaded by Russia, they're on their own. As commander in chief, he has the ultimate authority and he will exercise it.

[Evan Osnos]

Roger, if in fact Donald Trump loses the election on November 8, would you advise him to concede and accept the legitimacy of the result?

[Roger Stone]

As long as there's no irrefutable efforts of fraud, yes.

[Evan Osnos]

Well, what does that mean? I mean, do you.

[Roger Stone]

Oh, voter fraud doesn't exist in America.

[Evan Osnos]

So let me put it another way, though. Let's put it another way. I mean, you've seen the same studies which show that the tiny, infinitesimally small number of votes that are actually fraudulent, it's not even a significant number.

[Roger Stone]

Right. I'm more concerned about election rigging. If the Russians can hack and rig a machine.

[Evan Osnos]

Do you think Donald Trump will accept the result?

[Roger Stone]

He should, unless there is any refutable evidence to the contrary.

[Evan Osnos]

Do you agree, though? I mean, as an American, as a patriot, do you agree that there would be great damage to the American democratic process if Donald Trump does not recognize the result of a legitimate.

[Roger Stone]

Unless there is widespread evidence of fraud? I would like to see exit polls compared to the actual machine results in certain precincts, in certain states across the country, so that we may be sure those certain precincts.

[Max Boot]

I mean, Trump always talks about sending poll watchers to certain precincts, which, I mean, I'm glad that Rogers so concerned about racism, but that what Trump is saying seems to be pretty not so coded racism that he's worried that African Americans will somehow cheat to vote for Hillary Clinton.

[Roger Stone]

I don't think poll watchers would tell you much. A scientifically conducted exit poll, however, would.

[Max Boot]

I think Trump would probably suggest that we should rule based on Internet polls.

[Amy Davidson]

Amy, this is just to pick up on what Max was saying about what an executive is able to do, for example, to initiate military conflict with few checks. But I think we should also look at what say there is a war that Trump starts or doesn't start. What an executive can and has done in American history in the context of war and with the justification of war. One thing that people might remember is that a Supreme Court ruling that actually has never been officially overturned, this Korematsu, which is still in place, the idea that within the context of war, you can treat different citizens differently depending on their backgrounds, I think that that's something that will be a great concern under President Trump. I would also Say that one of the few Supreme Court decisions that's up there in terms of terribleness with Korematsu is, is Dred Scott, which was basically overturned effectively by the 14th Amendment. But President Trump has talked about a radical and unconventional reading of the 14th Amendment that might give a different status to children whose parents were born in other countries. This is his whole. When he talks about anchor babies, that's what he's talking about. And then you have the question with the Supreme Court, not just is he going to appoint justices who overturn Roe v. Wade, but is he going to appoint justices who provide any sort of a check.

[Evan Osnos]

Sean, how strong is in fact, the arrangement that a Trump president would inherit? The institutional setup? Every school child will tell you that there are checks and balances.

[Roger Stone]

President has a lot of power, period.

[Evan Osnos]

More than people think a lot.

[Andrew Bird]

Yeah.

[Roger Stone]

President's center of action. They can do a lot of things. Foreign policy in particular. There's a great deal he can do in foreign policy. It requires no congressional action whatsoever. And that has only increased over time. Executive orders, all sorts of things can happen. I know he says he's against executive orders. Watch what happens. No, a president is the most powerful figure in the American government, federal government, period. I don't have to say much more.

[Evan Osnos]

I don't think, Roger, when we think about what a Trump. There have been a number of names that have been floated. I'd be curious. I think a lot of us want to know what that would actually what it might look like if you were going to imagine, if you were going to try to plot out based on what you know and your sense of how the players interact with each other. Donald Trump, for instance, has talked about potentially Chris Christie as attorney general. There's been talk about Bob Corker from the Senate being either secretary of State or secretary of the Treasury. Justice Sessions has been an idea that people have floated. Justice Cruz perhaps has been floated by Mr. Cruz. What do you think? What do you think, Roger? Can you map it out for us? What do you think it looks like? What does the Trump White House look like?

[Roger Stone]

Well, since I think Chris Christie will be impeached as governor for lying to the people and then spending $10 million to cover his lie, which I wrote a year ago.

[Max Boot]

This is the head of the Trump transition team he's talking about.

[Roger Stone]

And I was opposed to that appointment. I thought it was insanity, and I wish the guy would now step down. Who was your second example? I apologize.

[Evan Osnos]

The other one would have been, let's see, Bob Corker, perhaps he's been talked about as Secretary of State.

[Roger Stone]

I actually think by the time that happens, Trump would become president, that he will be unconfirmable based on a series of stories that I think will break shortly regarding the senator and corruption. The Wall Street Journal has actually written extensively about this, but I believe we'll learn more.

[Evan Osnos]

What makes you believe that we'll learn more?

[Roger Stone]

Because I am active in American politics and I talk to a lot of reporters who I respect.

[Max Boot]

Yeah.

[Roger Stone]

But I would hope that he would select people who are not neocons, people who are not connected to the two party duopoly and the 30 years of bad decision making that have gotten the country to where it is today.

[Evan Osnos]

What about Michael Flynn, who's been a.

[Roger Stone]

CIA director or Secretary of defense? I think that would be a fine appointment.

[Amy Davidson]

One figure who Republicans have it in their power to put in the mix under President Trump is Justice Garland. You know, there's on the table a nomination. If the respectable Republicans really were concerned about what might happen under President Trump, that's one appointment that they have influence over right now.

[Evan Osnos]

I think that respectable Republicans line was directed at you. Max, do you think, is there a scenario by which, and this is open to anybody, is there a scenario by which Merrick Garland gets confirmed?

[Atul Gawande]

Sure.

[Max Boot]

I mean, I think it's crazy to hold that seat open for Donald Trump. I mean, I mean, Trump, you know, announced this list of judges that he would appoint, but I mean, this is a guy who lies on average about once every three minutes, according to Politico magazine. So I would certainly not take his word on who the heck he would appoint. I mean, he could appoint Judge Judy, the Supreme Court as much as anybody else. So I think that the Republicans would be well advised to confirm Judge Garland, who is a pretty moderate liberal.

[Evan Osnos]

Justice John, what are we not talking about when it comes to a Trump presidency? What is the thing that we really should be talking about, about what a Trump, a President Trump could do?

[Roger Stone]

I mean, I'm still wondering about whether, you know, Hillary Clinton was really involved in a murder plot.

[Evan Osnos]

Roger.

[Max Boot]

You know, I'm fully expecting that by the end of this panel discussion, all of us will be implicated in the John F. Kennedy assassination.

[Evan Osnos]

I left out our last choice for president, by the way, which is a giant meteor crashing into the whole thing and taking us all off.

[Max Boot]

It's looking more attractive. I think it's worth noting amidst all the other news, that we may have forgotten that yesterday the office of the Director of National Intelligence announced with high confidence that the hacking of the Democratic National Committee this summer was not done by some random 400 pound couch potato sitting in his bedroom, as Donald Trump would have you believe, but was in fact done by Russia using WikiLeaks and Julian Assange as a front for this leak of information that was accessed by Russian intelligence hackers. We don't know exactly what Putin is up to, but there is certainly reason to believe that he sees an opportunity to influence the outcome of this election because he sees that the Republican Party this time around has nominated the most pro Russian candidate in American history. He has a chance to reorient American policy fundamentally in a way that would allow him to dominate and even to conquer his neighboring countries.

[Evan Osnos]

Go ahead, Roger.

[Roger Stone]

Two political appointees in the Obama administration say the Russians are going to hack our election. That doesn't make it so. They offer no evidence, even classified evidence. Let the Republicans on the Intelligence Committee see the, the proof of that. The CIA director said he was concerned about this three weeks ago. That's the tip off. That is number one. Number two, we're discrediting Trump because he doesn't want war. He's not the war candidate and we are hurtling towards war.

[Evan Osnos]

This past week, I think actually, hold on. People are discrediting Trump because he has misstated the reality of Russian intervention in Ukraine. I mean, either because he didn't understand it or because he's deliberately trying to mislead the voters. You would agree that, that Vladimir Putin has invaded Crimea, is that right?

[Roger Stone]

The whole meme that Trump is in bed with Russia. It's nonsensical. It's so ridiculous.

[Amy Davidson]

You can keep, I would say three things. First, without diminishing the importance of cybersecurity and everything like that, I think that if we talk about Putin fixing the election and fixate on that too much, it's also a way of avoiding the question of why so many Americans do support Donald Trump and avoiding coming to terms with that and what that says about our political culture. Second, if Trump wins, and if the morning after that, Hillary Clinton's main point is that Putin did it, I think that's destructive. A third thing, I think that I'm not sure how clear a view Donald Trump has about the realities in Russia. And I think that it may be most interesting and most important to our question today to think about what kind of president he would want to be. He wants to be like the cartoon he has of Putin by which Crimea. How much does Trump know about that? But he knows about the idea of a president who can act outside the law. And act in an authoritarian manner. And that is a very, very highly alarming thing about the Putin.

[David Remnick]

I agree with that.

[Max Boot]

I agree with that. And it's just funny to me to hear Roger suggests that Donald Trump is the anti war candidate. This is a guy who's actually said, I love war, I want it. I'm always sorry I didn't get a purple heart. He's also said that he wants to bomb, quote, unquote, the out of isis. He wants to torture captured terrorist suspects, he wants to kill the families of terrorists, he wants to steal Iraq's oil. Think about the fact that, that Donald Trump has nasty, nasty comments about just about everybody in the world except for one person. He has never said one negative word about Vladimir Putin.

[Evan Osnos]

Amy, I wanna talk about political culture. We find ourselves now at a moment where you almost have to wonder whether it's okay to show a nine or ten year old child the front page of the New York Times because of the language, because, because of the kind of the nature of our political discourse right now. And how did we get to this.

[Amy Davidson]

Moment, to this moment with when we're talking about President Trump coming up? I'm afraid I can't. My heart does not go out to the institutional Republican Party. I don't think it was obvious who Donald Trump was for the first time when he walked down, you know, came down that escalator. I think that who Donald Trump was, not in terms of the tackiness, not in terms of the crudeness, in terms of the raw racism, was clear to a lot of New Yorkers about somewhere in the early 90s when he was calling for the execution of three children who were accused of rape. The Central Park Five. If we hadn't had the news about the Billy Bush video, it might have been a bigger story that Trump again said he believed in the guilt of, of those then boys who were exonerated by DNA evidence. For a long time he was the person who was also pushing birtherism. And if there's one person who might be most culpable for the respectability of Donald Trump, for his ability to get this far, I would argue that it might be Mitt Romney who now is.

[Evan Osnos]

Quite, he's adamantly against Trump.

[Amy Davidson]

Well, but he sought out, went to Las Vegas in the midst of the birtherist movement, sought out his endorsement, talked about what a wise economic mind was, really brought him into the Republican Party and had him do paid advertisements on behalf of his campaign. So what I resist is the idea and I think this has a lot to do with what a Trump presidency would look like, that Donald Trump is a complete alien force who's descended on the Republican Party. There's a lot that you can say. I think that the subject of this panel is also the subject of a lot of daydreams on the part of Republicans about where their own ambitions fit in. Paul Ryan, who cringes every time Trump says something and yet has endorsed him and yet chaired the convention, you know, it's. I'm sorry. And through it all, keep saying that it's worth it, because then President Trump, he's just going to sign whatever I get through the House. I think that we need to talk about how much the ambitions of the Republican Party have to do with where we are. And one of the questions is how deluded they are about how particular things are going to be realized.

[Roger Stone]

I agree with you on the Central Park 5. I was not at all happy when he raised that issue. I was equally unhappy when he started to advocate stop and frisk and that they were.

[Evan Osnos]

So now, you mentioned two things that offended you that he's done. What would he have to do, frankly, Roger, to lose your vote?

[Roger Stone]

You know, that's an interesting question. Let me say this. First of all, since he favors detente with the Russians, not war, which. Which is what I think we're hurtling toward, which I think Hillary is for as a neocon, I think he favors a period of hardheaded negotiations, so perhaps we could get together and try to destroy isis, our common enemy. He's not running against Joan of Arc.

[Evan Osnos]

But hold on a strategy question here for a second. There are 31 days till election Day. If it was held today, he would lose.

[Roger Stone]

Yes, but it's.

[Evan Osnos]

What is he going to do? What is he going to do in the next 31 days?

[Roger Stone]

But let me say this. In politics, 31 days is a lifetime.

[Evan Osnos]

So, Amy, you've been waiting patiently.

[Amy Davidson]

You know, the funny thing is, after the last debate, there was a lot of talk of cheating. And I think that.

[Roger Stone]

No, not cheating. Not interested in cheating. That's your interpretation. This is not about indiscretions. It's about violence against women.

[Amy Davidson]

No, no, no, I'm not talking about that kind of cheating. I was talking about the micro.

[Roger Stone]

Well, I'm reacting to something. Pardon me? I'm reacting to something you wrote that I read just before we.

[Amy Davidson]

What I was trying to say was to get back to one of your initial questions about the political culture. One of those who have come out against Trump have said, I can never vote for him. All of the things that you've said and then unlike you, they've said, but of course, I couldn't vote for Hillary Clinton either. Either I'll write somebody in or Gary Johnson or maybe I'll just sleep late. My concern is that our political culture in a Trump presidency is going to be characterized by a renunciation of politics, by a sense that it's not the route to solve American problems.

[Evan Osnos]

Amy, I have one question for you. The truth is, you know, this is not what we're seeing right now in the United States. This surge of populism here is not isolated. You know, we're seeing versions of this in other countries. We've seen Angela Merkel's party suffered a defeat recently. We've seen a surge of this kind of anti immigrant racist language in France. How do you see this phenomenon playing out? Is this going to come and go, or do you think we're entering into a new phase that's going to last a long time?

[Amy Davidson]

I don't think it. It'll simply go. I think that there is an impulse that can take a lot of different shapes. I don't believe that President Trump is going to really do anything that speaks to those complaints that really solves them, which is one reason I think that it will just be crisis after crisis and alarm and search for a new enemy, which is an ugly place to be. But, but this has to be the moment then, where both parties learn to talk to the American people and not talk in a demagogic and pandering or fear mongering way. Maybe listen is a better word than talk because there is something happening. You know, Bernie Sanders who came up, I have to say he's a bit of a contrast to a lot of the Republicans who are saying, I just can't endorse anybody. I'm not going to. I don't like him. I don't like her. You know, he's been out there in a way that actually, I think, shows his character in a quite admirable way. Campaigning for Clinton and saying to people like, these are the choices and we're not going to give up on our political system and we're not going to give up on democracy and we're not going to give up on pursuing the interests of working people. And he's doing it through these instruments that we've been building for 200 years.

[Evan Osnos]

Well, we have covered a lot of ground. We are absolutely out of time. We're beyond time. This was a terrific audience. Thank you for your questions and please join me in thanking this panelist for coming today.

[David Remnick]

President Trump. We heard from Amy Davidson, Roger Stone, Max Boot and Sean Wilentz with Evan Osnos moderating. Now we're going to take a blessed relief from politics, a big break. In a minute, we'll hear a conversation and live performance from the songwriter Andrew Bird. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. The war in Syria has gone from bad to worse to horrendous, with the Russian military deeply involved and the US Facing unbelievably tough choices about how to engage. And meanwhile, the crisis in places like Aleppo is escalating all the time.

[Evan Osnos]

There is a situation now where people.

[Andrew Bird]

Can really not leave their homes.

[Roger Stone]

They're petrified.

[Evan Osnos]

And to say that people in Aleppo are petrified is shocking.

[Andrew Bird]

It's surprising for me because these people.

[Evan Osnos]

Are used to these bombs. They're used to barrel bombs and they've gotten used to it. But now they're petrified because they see.

[Andrew Bird]

That there is a clear intention to.

[Evan Osnos]

Totally put this city into submission and there is nowhere to run.

[David Remnick]

Next week, we're going to go deep into the problem of the war in Syria and what the US can do to move forward. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. And today's show was recorded live at the New Yorker Festival, which took place this month. Now, Atul Gawande usually writes for the New Yorker about the practice of medicine. He's also a busy surgeon, a public health researcher, a father, the author of four best selling books. But when he came to the New Yorker Festival, he didn't interview some innovator in cancer treatment. He wanted to talk to one of his favorite musicians. See, Atul is an absolute music nut. He listens to music even in the operating room. And he sent me his playlist for a recent day in the or. It included Father John, Misty's Strange Encounter, Lake Street Dives, call off your Dogs, Beyonce singing with Kendrick Lamar, freedom and Alabama Shakes, don't wanna Fight. It also included a song called Puma by Andrew Bird. Atul adores Andrew Bird, who writes these gorgeous melancholy songs, sometimes in a rock and roll vein, sometimes more acoustic. Bird plays guitar, violin whistles like nobody else in business. And along with a looping machine, he's crafted the ultimate one man band. So here's Atul Gawande with Andrew Bird.

[Atul Gawande]

I've been a fan of yours from the first album, 2003, Weather Systems. When I heard the next album or two albums after that dark Matter, you said that, you know, when I was a little boy, I threw away my action toys and devoted myself to playing operation.

[Andrew Bird]

Yeah.

[Andrew Bird (singing)]

When I was just a little boy, I threw away all of my actions while I became obsessed with operation.

[Amy Davidson]

With.

[Andrew Bird (singing)]

Hearts and minds uncertain breath.

[Atul Gawande]

Did you really actually want to be a surgeon? Because I've been hoping.

[Andrew Bird]

No, I was more interested in psychiatry, actually. I wanted to be a psychiatrist. Seriously?

[Amy Davidson]

Yeah.

[Atul Gawande]

You did?

[Andrew Bird]

Yeah.

[Atul Gawande]

Where did you grow up and did you know you were interested in music? Were you actually or were you thinking might like to be a doctor?

[Andrew Bird]

Well, I grew up around Chicago, north of Chicago, in Lake Bluff, Illinois. And I started playing violin when I was 4. And it was just. It was something. It was my mom's idea. And I played Suzuki violin completely by ear for the first 10 years. And it's just something I did every week, almost every day of my life from before. I was really conscious human. So I didn't really think of it in terms of. And I still don't as like a profession. So when I thought of, like, what do you want to be when you grow up? I thought, I like the interior design of the psychiatrist's office. I like the wood paneling and all the accessories. And I was curious about human behavior.

[Atul Gawande]

But yeah, you were growing up with lots of different interests as a kid. Yeah. What was the path that you were that led you down this particular path and what were the others that might have happened?

[Andrew Bird]

Well, I mean, I didn't get really serious about music until I was maybe 15, when not much in your life is going very well, you know, And I was already pretty good at this. And I was looking for something, some sort of thing to feel good about. And I was like, wow, I already kind of have this in the bag, almost half in the bag. And I threw myself into it in a sort of high school, sort of, I'm going to be an artist sort of thing. And then my head was filled with all these lofty ideas. I'm going to be the greatest violinist. And. And it was my goth music, you know, in high school. I mean, all my friends were kind of the goth kids, but I didn't actually care for that music very much. I preferred, you know, Dvorak and Mozart's Requiem and all that stuff. It was the same thing.

[Atul Gawande]

You were truly goth?

[Andrew Bird]

I was old school goth.

[Atul Gawande]

Yeah.

[Andrew Bird]

Yeah. But then I started practicing six to eight hours a day. I got pretty fanatical about it.

[Atul Gawande]

You did classical music by the time you went to college, it was with a focus on classical music.

[Andrew Bird]

Yeah. Violin performance. Yeah.

[Atul Gawande]

And where Were you in school at Northwestern? And so what were you thinking would happen after that?

[Andrew Bird]

Well, at first I was thinking, I guess I'm going to do this classical thing. Although I was starting to get hints that maybe that was going to be tough. And I wasn't really cut out for it. I didn't love being in orchestras and I didn't get along with my teachers, so. Well, not that I didn't get along, but we had. They were trying to show me how to do one thing and I was excited about, you know, Hungarian gypsy music. Or I was like, look, I want to improvise my own cadenza in this concerto. And they said, no, you have to play the transcription of the guy in 1880 who did this. And I was like, I want to bring improvisation back to classical music. And they're like, no, just do the program. And then when you get out, you can do what you want. Which by the time I got out, I was so eager to do what I wanted that I haven't read a lick of music since I left school.

[Atul Gawande]

When did you start to think, you know, maybe this violin and whistling would be the basis for fantastic rock and roll?

[Andrew Bird (singing)]

Um.

[Andrew Bird]

Well, I kind of backed into it. I didn't whistle at first because I thought, oh, that'd be too cute, you know, But I whistle. If you hung out with me for a day, it would drive you crazy. Because I whistle non stop. I often say if I'm not eating or talking or sleeping, I'm whistling no matter what mood I'm in. And so I didn't think to put that on a record until swimming hour. And then when I started playing solo and I noticed and I started doing the looping, that the timbre of the whistle really cuts through all the mid rangy violin stuff. It was more like a mix thing. I'm just trying to use everything at my disposal to keep people's attention in a solo context. And the whistling, I would fill my lungs with air and just hold a note until people stopped their conversations. And it was really effective because they.

[Atul Gawande]

Wondered what the hell you were doing.

[Andrew Bird]

What is that piercing sound?

[Atul Gawande]

There's something maybe where I resonate so much with what you do, and to some extent the New Yorker does, because it's occupying the space between being challenging and wanting to be generally connecting with lots of people and yet being relatively demanding. 10,000 word stories on why we itch and a woman who scratched her way all the way through her skull.

[Andrew Bird]

Is that your article?

[Atul Gawande]

That was me. That was one of mine. But the kind of thing that I'm not toying with you, but wanting to draw people in without the same tricks. Right. That's what I think the New Yorker is generally trying to do.

[Andrew Bird]

Yeah, I mean, I guess it's. My approach to communication has generally been, Yeah. A little bit perceived as maybe opaque or obtuse or whatever. But it's there for you. It's there for you if you want to dig into it. It's like usually I start with a really strong melody and I'm compelled to sing that melody. And I have a need for words. And I think, well, let's talk about something interesting. That's generally how I come at it.

[Atul Gawande]

This album is really different because it's so direct and personal. You're singing about meeting your wife, and you're singing about having a child. Love to play A Few Minutes from Puma. The first time I heard this song, I felt like I knew exactly what it was about. And I hadn't read anything about it, heard anything about it. If we could play Puma.

[Andrew Bird (singing)]

Do you see particles in the air? Ungodly particles in the air? Do you see particles in the air? Nobody notices, nobody cares? Oh, don't try to tell her she's less feline than human? Cause it gets rides through the rumor She's a girl and that life that shines is not a pearl it's just a tumor. She was radioactive for seven days. How I wanted to be holding her anyway but the doctors, they told me to stay away. Beautifying the genos and the gamma rays.

[Atul Gawande]

It's just a tumor and she was radioactive for seven days. And as soon as I heard that line, I'm a endocrine surgeon. I do thyroid cancer care. And I'm like, this is a song about thyroid cancer. And the treatment you undergo for it involves being radioactive for seven days, and the doctor tells you to stay away. Only you made it this beautiful thing of. Because of the flying neutrinos and the gamma rays, but you wanted to hold her anyway. And you made this thing that's like a regular part of my life and what I do for people and turned it into art in a way that I didn't really even understand could be possible. It was this amazing thing. I mean, I play this song for patience now, and I play it in my operating room. And being that direct is not something that you have wanted to do before. And I was really struck by your letting it hang out there and be that personal. I don't think you're entirely comfortable being there.

[Andrew Bird]

Are you No, I had some major. I paused for sure when I was working on this song. But, I mean, how could I go ahead and make another record and have gone through what we went through without and completely omit these things that were so real and pervasive and just visceral? So basically, that song opens with. Do you see particles in the air? This is when we were living in New York in an apartment where you couldn't see much more than just a patch of sky out the window, and there's maybe an electrical wire? And have you ever had that experience where you look out at the air and you feel like you can see the subatomic particles and it's probably just some dust? But either way, in New York.

[Atul Gawande]

Yes.

[Andrew Bird]

Yes. And I was thinking. I mean, basically, the song is about how my wife Kathy, handled this really scary thing right after we had a kid. This really crazy, reckless thing. It seemed like. I mean, a guy in a spacesuit comes in and puts a pill on your tongue, and they say, okay, just take a cab home, but sit as far away from the driver as possible. And then she had to lock herself in her apartment for at least seven days. And I took our son upstate just to assured that we wouldn't be tempted. And I thought, this is crazy reckless. And I was thinking about those particles and how are we constantly being lacerated by these subatomic particles? What is cancer? I mean, that's my question for you. I guess what I'm wondering is. And maybe there's been discussions of this or not, but does cancer have a purpose? There seems to be some genetic. It seems to be in our genetic code to some degree. And then there's environmental. But does it. Is there some reason cancer exists?

[Atul Gawande]

If I told you, then the song wouldn't happen, right? It occurs because where we're constantly bombarded by radiation from the sun and from outer space, and our DNA undergo mutations all the time, we generate a cancer cell almost every day, and your body clears it out. And we have a defense mechanism that is really good at clearing it out. And yet, every once in a while, one can get through. And the longer you live, the more likely it gets through. And the, you know, the shocking thing is it can nonetheless get through when you're a child. It can get through in young age, like you guys, and go onward. And the fantastic news is she's doing great. But nonetheless, it is one of the few ways in which we're aware of our fragility. Unlike a century ago, when you could get a flu, you could get A broken leg. You could get a strep throat. George Washington died from a strep throat. You know, three days later, he was dead because we didn't have treatment for it.

[Andrew Bird]

Right.

[Atul Gawande]

And so I think it's still our being in touch with the fact that we're still animal, mortal beings.

[Andrew Bird]

I like to write about things that I don't understand, you know, so let's not get to the bottom of it tonight. Let's not exactly.

[Atul Gawande]

We don't have anything to write about.

[Andrew Bird]

The other part of that song is the reason why it's so upbeat is because it's more. There's other lines there that are about how my wife dealt with this scary thing with a sense of humor and grace that impressed the crowd out of me. But it was just the line, we were on our way to get some test results and we knew something wasn't right.

[Atul Gawande]

And.

[Andrew Bird]

And she says, I'm afraid they're gonna tell me I'm a girl and not a puma. Which is an inside joke to some degree. But I just thought it was amazing that she was able to think that way in such a scary moment. Anyway, she has kind of a very feline fixation and embodies that as well.

[Atul Gawande]

So, anyway. I think this album, though, has done so well because it is accessible at times. And then other times when, you know, I didn't understand what Puma was about. I knew there was something personal in it, but it brought out something that was just at another level of connection. And that's what makes it art and what makes it beautiful with the music. Interplay, interplaying with the lyrics. And I think there are those many moments, you know, valleys of the young, which struck me as, on one level, being straightforward about having a child and suddenly not being connected to those people who have brunches and sleep in late every day. And yet there seems to be a whole nother layer to it that I never could guess or understand. Am I reading that right?

[Andrew Bird]

Yeah. I mean, and I say that for the last verse, which gets kind of brutal talking about. It's based on an actual something that a friend of mine went through. But it imagines two parents that are going to the aid of their adult child who's just tried to commit suicide, but they're at the end of their life, or quite a bit. They're still in that parent mode of going to the aid of their child who's in middle age. So that was kind of a sucker punch in the song, because I'm talking otherwise about these more Superficial things that happen in urban environments between people who have kids and don't and that chasm between which is something to talk about. But this last verse was like, I'm gonna grab you by the collar, make sure you're really listening, you know?

[Atul Gawande]

Well, I want to thank Andrew Bird for the time we've had to mine a little bit of your life in music. You're an amazing person and musician and we're in for a treat with you playing solo on stage and constructing your music in front of us. So like to have a warm round of applause for Andrew Bird.

[David Remnick]

Andrew Bird talking with Atul Gawande, surgeon, author and music fanatic. In a minute, we'll hear some live music from Andrew Bird. This is a special edition of the New Yorker Radio Hour live from the New Yorker Festival, more to come. I'm David Remnick, and this is the New Yorker Radio Hour. A minute ago we heard medical reporter and music nut Atul Gawande interviewing the indie singer songwriter Andrew Bird. Here's Bird playing a song called Capsized off his record Are youe Serious? Which came out earlier this year.

[Andrew Bird (singing)]

When you wake up nice fall someone is by your side Put it together darling you're not alone but when you break up Sky's falling no one is on your side Side spoon of the laundry Darling, you're all alone.

[Atul Gawande]

Just to.

[Andrew Bird (singing)]

Keep it now He's a dumb bit maker He's a downbeat maker Jesus gonna make mine and it's the Holy Ghost, Holy Ghost religion It's a Holy Ghost religion Jesus come to make mine and when you wake up another sunrise it when you wake up night's falling Someone is by your side Put it together darling you're not alone but when you break up Sky's falling no one is on your side Spoon a little laundry Darling, you're all alone and when you wake up Another sunrise, another breaker.

[Andrew Bird]

Your.

[Andrew Bird (singing)]

Ship is cap sad.

[David Remnick]

Andrew Bird playing capsized at the New Yorker Festival. I'm David Remnick, and we've got more highlights of the New Yorker Festival in store for you in the coming months. John Goodman talking with the New Yorker's Lawrence Wright, comedian Sarah Silverman with Andy Borowitz. And I'll talk with a guy named Bruce Springsteen. We'll save that one for a little Thanksgiving treat. And to wrap things up today, here is Andrew Bird playing Left handed kisses.

[Andrew Bird (singing)]

See you take such pains that she won't notice you.

[Andrew Bird]

And your ex Rays.

[Andrew Bird (singing)]

Of your paleo man O gaze how they rest Iron place slowly corrupting you I wonder what the chances you wanted to Thousand vacant stairs one make it you now you need a witness just to know you're there from the tips of your fingers have a strand of hair to know someone's watching you Watching me watching you and all that we look upon you may not know me but you feel feel my stare and if she sees you it changes you Rearranges your molecules if you see her it changes her She's a danger now after school and if she sees you it changes you Rearranges your molecules.

[Amy Davidson]

If.

[Andrew Bird (singing)]

You see how it changes as her she'll be seeing you after school He's a gentleman of veterans maybe she's a gentleman in disguise. You need a witness just to know you're there from the tips of your fingers ever strand of hair to know someone's watching you, Watching me watching you and all that we look upon you may not know me but you feel feel bad and when I see you.

[Andrew Bird]

How it changes me.

[Andrew Bird (singing)]

When you see.

[Atul Gawande]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a.

[David Remnick]

Co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

[Andrew Bird]

Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Alexis Cuadrado.

[Amy Davidson]

This episode was produced by Alex Barron.

[Andrew Bird]

Emily Bottin, Ave Carrillo, Rhiannon Corby, Jill Duboff, Karen Frillman, David Krasnow, Sarah Nix, Michael Rayfiel, Mythali Rao and Steven Valentino, with help from Rhonda Sherman, Sarah Edwards.

[Amy Davidson]

David Ohana, Alexis Goldberg and Bradley Gee.

[Atul Gawande]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported.

[Andrew Bird]

In part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.