Episode Summary: Jeanette Winterson’s Christmas and Obama’s Legacy

Podcast: The New Yorker Radio Hour
Date: December 16, 2016
Host: David Remnick
Guests: Jeanette Winterson, Deborah Treisman, Ryan Lizza, Amy Davidson, Anna Galland, Evan Osnos, Ocean Vuong

Overview

This episode offers a wide-ranging conversation moving from literary reflections on Christmas with acclaimed novelist Jeanette Winterson to an in-depth analysis of Barack Obama’s legacy at the twilight of his presidency. Additional segments feature a discussion on progressive activism in the Trump Era and a poetic detour into the immigrant food culture of Flushing, Queens, culminating in a sobering check-in with a Syrian civilian living through the conflict in Aleppo.

1. Jeanette Winterson on Christmas, Storytelling, and Identity

[00:29–15:23]
Deborah Treisman interviews Jeanette Winterson about her latest book, "Christmas Days," a collection of holiday stories and recipes.

Childhood Christmas Memories and Book Origins

• Winterson reveals her profound connection to Christmas, rooted in a deeply personal childhood memory: her mother’s rare happiness during the holiday season.
  • “I love Christmas because when I was growing up, it was the one time of the year when my flamboyantly depressed mother was actually happy.” — Jeanette Winterson [01:32]
• The book began with a handful of previously written stories and grew to include new stories and family recipes, crafted during the summer by creating a wintery ambiance in her home.
  • “I had to wait till it got dark or draw the curtains, then put the carols on…little decorations and bits of robins hanging about to put me in the mood.” — Jeanette Winterson [01:54]

Recipes, Nostalgia, and Home

• Recipes in the book are homemade and spontaneous, not haute cuisine.
  • “Are you trying to tell me something—You happen to throw together when you dig into the fridge and you find some old cake.” — Deborah Treisman [03:33]
  • “You have to have old cake for a proper sherry trifle, otherwise it doesn't soak up the sherry…most things are about how can we make do and mend, aren't they?” — Jeanette Winterson [03:40]

Religion, Apocalypse, and Family Lore

• Winterson recalls her mother’s apocalyptic fervor—preparing for the end times, practicing drills, and leaving treats for the Four Horsemen.
  • “We used to have a drill whereby we'd practice for the apocalypse...and leave out these little gifts when the Four Horsemen passed through.” — Jeanette Winterson [04:16]

Christmas as a Constructed, Inclusive Tradition

• She emphasizes the syncretic and evolving nature of Christmas, urging listeners to claim their own version.
  • “It doesn't have to be something which is bought off the shelf or handed down to us on tablets of stone…we’ve made it up as we've gone along.” — Jeanette Winterson [05:36]
• The holiday’s ghost stories, magic, and traditions are celebrated, with a nod to Dickens and Victorian fascination with the supernatural, possibly heightened by “low level carbon monoxide poisoning” and gin.
• The Christ story itself is reflected on as a sort of fairytale—an archetype humanity continuously seeks.

Self, Sexuality, Storytelling Roots

• Treisman and Winterson discuss her Dickensian childhood, lack of books at home except the Bible, and her eventual path to literature and feminism.
  • “No, no, no. We only had the Bible because she didn’t want me to have influences.” — Jeanette Winterson [10:31]
  • “The trouble with a book is that you never know what's in it till it's too late. So books were forbidden. And of course, anything that's forbidden, you want, don't you?” — Jeanette Winterson [10:34]
• Early discovery of feminism through encountering Nabokov; the experience of being forced to leave home for loving another girl forms the basis for her memoir’s title.
  • “Why be happy when you could be normal?” — Mrs. Winterson [13:30]

Writing Roots

• Winterson traces her literary voice back to sermon-writing as a child, and the Bible’s “economy of style.”
  • “Because it is the grand fiction, isn't it? And still well worth reading.” — Jeanette Winterson [13:50]

Holiday Reflections and Gratitude

• Winterson shares her Christmas ritual of homemade bread, carols, and contemplation, emphasizing gratitude for her life’s journey.
  • “Life should be joyful where we can find it. And listen, I'm really lucky...I've got a lot to be thankful for. So for me not to be thankful will be a kind of sin against the like.” — Jeanette Winterson [14:16]

2. Obama’s Legacy: Historians’ Debate on a Consequential Presidency

[16:31–33:51]
David Remnick discusses the Obama presidency’s meaning with New Yorker correspondents Ryan Lizza and Amy Davidson.

Opening Prompt: Is Obama “Consequential”?

• Remnick situates Obama’s ambition among historic presidents.
  • “I don’t want to be just one of those normal presidents. I want to be a consequential president.” — Barack Obama, quoted by David Remnick [16:31]
• Lizza asserts Obama earned his consequential status, referencing transformative legislative achievements during the first two years:
  • “Those first two years will go down in history on par with FDR’s most successful legislative period and LBJ’s.” — Ryan Lizza [18:24]

Legislative Highlights: ACA, Dodd-Frank, Stimulus

• ACA (Obamacare) ends refusal for pre-existing conditions; Dodd-Frank reforms Wall Street.
• $800 billion stimulus “stuffed with Democratic priorities.”
  • “I think the enormity of those first two years often gets lost because there was so much going on…” — Ryan Lizza [20:29]

Source of Resentment: Bailouts and White Working Class

• Obama’s economic rescue credited for stabilization, but is also blamed as source of populist resentment.
  • “The economic rescue program…is often pointed to as the source of white working class resentment because jobs were not the priority so much as financial repair.” — David Remnick [21:38]

Temperament: Strength & Weakness

• Obama’s restraint contrasted with Trump’s bombast; was this caution a liability?
  • “If there’s one downside to it, you might argue that Obama is cautious to a fault.” — Ryan Lizza [24:03]
• Missed opportunities cited: immigration reform and climate change. Obama never secured durable climate change policy (“cap and trade”).

The Existential Issue: Climate Change

• “Has he done enough on climate change? No one has done enough on climate change.” — Amy Davidson [25:39]
• The challenge of making climate policy: “Short term pain for long-term gain…such a difficult political case to make.” — Ryan Lizza [26:28]

Stymied Progressivism and Cautious Foreign Policy

• Obama’s efforts stymied by congressional realities and internal party limitations.
• Guantanamo discussed as an example of unfinished business, both a legal and moral failure.

Foreign Policy: Iraq, Syria, and Limits of Retrenchment

• Obama’s “retrenchment” (reduction of military engagement) was a double-edged sword.
  • “I do think that reputation pushed him not to take as seriously what would happen if he pulled out of Iraq prematurely. …There’s a credible argument that ISIS’s rise was enabled by the vacuum.” — Ryan Lizza [30:13]
• Syria’s catastrophe and the consequences of non-intervention are assessed as legacies with lasting global repercussions.

Accomplishments and Failures: The Final Tally

• Greatest accomplishment: averting greater economic and social catastrophe post-2008.
  • “We’re stronger now than we were in 2008 and I think better able to deal with Donald Trump.” — Amy Davidson [32:47]
• Greatest failure: Inequality remains, and climate policy is not secured for the long-term.
  • “His biggest failure…was not putting in place a climate change policy that is sure to outlast the next president.” — Ryan Lizza [33:10]

3. MoveOn’s Anna Galland on Progressive Strategy in the Trump Era

[35:11–44:59]
Evan Osnos interviews Anna Galland (Executive Director of MoveOn.org) about the organization’s response to Trump and the left’s strategy.

Obstruct or Cooperate with Trump?

• Galland argues there is both a moral and practical imperative to unambiguously oppose Trump.
  • “You can't play footsie with a white supremacist...You can't be in bed with this guy.” — Anna Galland [37:03]
• Practical benefit from cooperating on issues like infrastructure is dismissed: "There’s no way that an infrastructure bill…is really going to advance progressive values." [37:03]

Digital Activism and Petitions: Gateway to Action

• Online petitions are seen as first steps, but not sufficient.
  • “It’s like a door through which you can walk into a room…A petition is one way to do that…and now let's move to action together.” — Anna Galland [38:35]

The Future of Protest: From Petitions to Direct Action

• Standing Rock’s successful resistance cited as a model for future activism—“frontline direct action…is going to characterize the protests and the fights ahead” [40:43]
• Progressives must learn to be as “fierce and unrelenting” as groups like the NRA but without “the seedy part.” [42:35]

Leadership Pipeline: Where Are the New Faces?

• Need to build new leadership beyond current aging figures.
  • “There’s a real need to build up the pipeline right now…to have someone ready to go who's an inspiring movement connected candidate as we get ready for 2020.” — Anna Galland [44:11]
• Specific mention: Pramila Jayapal, Lucy Flores.

4. Ocean Vuong: Food, Family, and Immigrant Memory in Flushing

[45:28–51:47]
Poet Ocean Vuong tours the New World Cafeteria in Flushing, Queens.

The Café as Cultural Memory

• Flushing is described as the “real Chinatown,” evoking nostalgia and family memories.
  • “My Asian friends and I joke, this is the real Chinatown. They call it the People’s Republic of Flushing.” — Ocean Vuong [46:34]
• Growing up amid Vietnamese family, food, and women’s stories; kitchen as a cradle of poetry.

Language and Belonging

• On literary alienation and forging linguistic identity:
  • “Roland Barthes, the French philosopher, says, ‘If you do not have a language, you must steal it as men steal bread.’ And that's perfect in a way.” — Ocean Vuong [49:28]

5. Syria in Crisis: Omar Dawood’s Perspective from Aleppo

[53:11–54:02]
Translation of a conversation with Omar Dawood, a civilian living through the siege of Aleppo.

War and Parenting Amid Ruins

• Dawood describes trying to give his war-born children hope for a future beyond conflict.
  • “I try to give them hope so that they wouldn’t just give up completely on the future.” — Omar Dawood [53:36]

The Ongoing Crisis

• The episode leaves listeners with concern for Omar’s family, underscoring the enduring severity of the crisis in Syria.

Notable Quotes by Timestamp

• “I love Christmas because when I was growing up, it was the one time of the year when my flamboyantly depressed mother was actually happy.” — Jeanette Winterson [01:32]
• “You have to have old cake for a proper sherry trifle, otherwise it doesn't soak up the sherry…” — Jeanette Winterson [03:40]
• "Why be happy when you could be normal?" — Mrs. Winterson (via Jeanette) [13:30]
• “Those first two years will go down in history on par with FDR’s most successful legislative period and LBJ’s.” — Ryan Lizza [18:24]
• “Has he done enough on climate change? Nobody has done enough on climate change.” — Amy Davidson [25:39]
• “You can't play footsie with a white supremacist...You can't be in bed with this guy.” — Anna Galland [37:03]
• “Roland Barthes...says, 'If you do not have a language, you must steal it as men steal bread.’ And that's perfect in a way.” — Ocean Vuong [49:28]
• “I try to give them hope so that they wouldn’t just give up completely on the future.” — Omar Dawood [53:36]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Jeanette Winterson on Christmas & storytelling: [00:29–15:23]
• Obama’s legacy roundtable: [16:31–33:51]
• Anna Galland on MoveOn and resistance: [35:11–44:59]
• Ocean Vuong at Flushing food court: [45:28–51:47]
• Syria/Aleppo civilian story: [53:11–54:02]

Tone and Style

The episode blends Winterson’s wry, thoughtful humor with the earnest, measured analysis of the Obama segment and the passionate, urgent tone of Anna Galland’s political counsel. Ocean Vuong’s segment is lyrical and evocative, providing a sensory counterpoint to the more cerebral discussions before ending with the raw realism of life in Aleppo.

This episode traverses themes of tradition, personal and political transformation, activism, and global crisis—wrapped in the distinct voices and lived experiences of its contributors.