Episode 7: The Mayor and the Mormon Church, and Roger Angell

Summary

The New Yorker Radio Hour, Episode 7: "The Mayor and the Mormon Church, and Roger Angell"

Date: December 4, 2015
Host: David Remnick (WNYC Studios & The New Yorker)

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Episode Overview

This multifaceted episode explores several core themes: the intersection of identity and politics through a Salt Lake City mayoral race and the Mormon Church's stance on LGBTQ+ families; the nature of political engagement among high school students through a mock presidential election; and a moving conversation with legendary New Yorker writer Roger Angell about baseball, writing, aging, loss, and memory. The show concludes with cultural recommendations from Amelia Lester.

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1. Comic Cold Open – Scheduling Woes of "Girls" ([00:00–02:32])

• Lena Dunham and Alison Williams recreate a comic exchange—written by Kelly Stout—about the difficulties young women face in making plans, featuring exaggerated self-deprecation and topical metaphors.
• Quote:
  "If you're garbage, then I am like the Deepwater Horizon oil spill." (Lena Dunham, [01:19])

Light-hearted, self-mocking banter sets the tone for the episode, blending humor and cultural references.

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2. High-School Political Simulation at Townsend Harris ([02:32–16:53])

Segment Introduction ([02:32–03:12])

• Josh Rothman reports on a senior-class mock presidential election at Townsend Harris High School in Queens.
• Students take on candidates' personas, media roles, and campaign teams, creating an in-depth reenactment of the U.S. election process.

Getting into Character ([03:12–07:42])

• Students impersonate Trump, Hillary, Jeb Bush, Bernie Sanders, Carly Fiorina, and others; they research policies and embrace campaign rhetoric.
• Quote:
  "I'm Donald Trump, but, I mean, everyone here should know that by now, if they've even watched the news. The media loves me, guys."
  (Matthew McAndrew as Trump, [03:12])
• Campaigns create ads, utilize social media, and appear on mock radio shows.

Ideology and Student Dynamics ([07:42–09:25])

• Townsend Harris is competitive, diverse, and mostly liberal, but conservative views exist.
• Students discuss the challenge of honestly representing assigned candidates' sometimes-controversial views, especially on immigration.
• Quote:
  "I agree that there are some good Mexicans, but right now, the ones that are coming into this country are... bringing with them their crime, their drug use, and it's really just not helping our country get better."
  (Matthew McAndrew as Trump, [08:52])

The Art of the Pivot & Campaign Media ([09:25–11:20])

• Students must master candidates’ dodges, including Hillary’s skillful deflection:
• Quote:
  "This is the Hillary Clinton campaign, not the Bill Clinton campaign… But my plan does call for more investment in infrastructure, scientific research, a greater tax relief for the middle class, and a system that can create affordable education."
  (Yasmin Ali as Hillary, [09:31])

Media, Entertainment, and Debate ([11:20–16:21])

• Campaigns blend adversarial questioning with entertainment tactics (best "Facebook page," creative ads).
• Debate tensions rise when a "Trump" character crosses a line by making a sexist comment, leading to real emotional fallout and administrative intervention.
• Quote:
  "You've insulted every woman in this room."
  (Yasmin Ali as Hillary, [13:23])
• Students reflect on the blurring lines between their mock election and real-world politics.
• Results: Jeb Bush wins the Republican primary simulation; Hillary Clinton the Democratic.
• Josh Rothman's reflection:
  "I wish the system they were simulating was a little more admirable and a little less like high school." ([15:45])

Musical Send-off

• Another student-created rap celebrates Carly Fiorina, showing the inventiveness and engagement of the student body.

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3. Roger Angell on Baseball, Writing, and Life ([17:53–38:27])

Roger Angell’s Baseball Hall of Fame Speech & Reflections ([18:28–19:45])

• Excerpt from Angell’s 2014 Hall of Fame induction.
• Quote:
  "My gratitude always goes back to baseball itself, which turned out to be so familiar and so startling, so spacious and exacting, so easy looking and so heartbreakingly difficult that it filled up my notebooks in Seasons in a Rush."
  (Roger Angell, [18:47])

Finding a Voice in Sportswriting ([19:45–22:54])

• Challenges of entering sportswriting; early anxiety and unfamiliarity.
• Rooted his perspective as a fan, which was novel at the time.
• Shift in sports journalism culture: writers once shared economic status with players—now, "they're making as much as an oligarch." ([22:47])

Life as a Fiction Editor, Editorial Process ([23:38–26:51])

• Editing is intimate, collaborative, and essential, even for greats like John Cheever and Nabokov.
• Quote:
  "Some of the best fiction writers we had needed heavy, heavy editing... Cheever hated the editing, but then knew that he needed it."
  (Roger Angell, [24:51])
• Anecdote: Harold Ross's delightfully thorough (and sometimes pedantic) editorial queries to Nabokov and Roald Dahl ([27:33]–[28:51])

Aging, Memory, Loss, and Love ([29:07–35:31])

• Angell discusses his acclaimed essay "This Old Man," the experience of physical debility, coping with loss, and finding new love in later life.
• Quote:
  "Old people are like everyone else. We need connection. We need love....Old people have a love life, have intimate connections, have sex lives. And people don't like to admit this."
  (Roger Angell, [35:00])
• Touches on memory as an ongoing process—writing about painful personal events causes them to "go away."

The Writer’s Life: Perseverance, Blogging, and Reflection ([35:31–38:27])

• Considers aging’s impact on writing; enjoys blogging for its brevity and immediacy.
• Quote:
  "I used to love to make paper airplanes...that's like a blog."
  (Roger Angell, [29:58])
• On memory and recurring stories:
  "We’re not trying to change the outcome, but we’re trying to keep [the memory] or to say, 'Was this the way it was?'"
  (Roger Angell, [37:26])
• David Remnick extols Angell's persistent brilliance and influence.

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4. Jackie Biskupski: Salt Lake City's First Openly Gay Mayor & Clash with Mormon Church

([39:54–49:52])

Utah Politics and the LDS Church ([39:54–41:49])

• Salt Lake City is a liberal enclave; election of an openly gay woman as mayor is both symbolic and significant.

Jackie Biskupski's Journey ([41:49–44:40])

• Biskupski describes her initial years in Utah, early systemic discrimination against gays, and her role as the state's first openly gay legislator.
• Quote:
  "I can remember when I first moved here that if we went to a club and it was a gay club, they made you sign this paper...and cops would come in and look at the list."
  (Jackie Biskupski, [41:55])
• Faced organized opposition in campaigns, but received crucial support from legislative leaders.

LDS Church Policy Change and Its Effects ([44:40–47:10])

• Recent Mormon Church policy bars children of same-sex couples from baptism until adulthood and after they "disavow" same-sex marriage.
• Quote:
  "There is, without question, a feel to it that sends a message to the children in our community that we're not all equal."
  (Jackie Biskupski, [46:01])
• Biskupski addresses policy timing, possible links to her election, and trust in Church assurances.

Polygamy and Tolerance ([47:10–49:50])

• Discusses parallels between Church policy on polygamy and same-sex parenting; mayor’s personal philosophy stresses non-judgment and child safety over legal enforcement.
• Optimistic note about progress in language and respect from Church toward LGBTQ+ community.

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5. Pop Culture Check-in with Amelia Lester ([50:26–53:07])

TV and Book Recommendations

• Amelia Lester pitches "Please Like Me" (Australian TV) as "Larry David meets Lena Dunham in the body of a 21-year-old gay man."
• Discusses reading "The Lost Child" by Elena Ferrante and "Purity" by Jonathan Franzen, and the value of reading more women writers.
• Quote:
  "I generally have a rule where I don't like to read books written by men because I hear enough from them every day at work."
  (Amelia Lester, [52:36])

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6. Next Week's Teaser: Homeless River Adventurer ([53:13–54:32])

• Brief excerpt previews a profile of Dick Conant, a homeless man/adventurer who traversed America by canoe, rejecting modern distractions for river life.
• Quote:
  "I got tired of TV and automobiles, so I just took off and jumped in the river."
  (Dick Conant, [39:44])

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Notable Quotes by Segment

| Quote | Speaker | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------------------------|-----------------------------------|---------------| | "If you're garbage, then I am like the Deepwater Horizon oil spill." | Lena Dunham | 01:19 | | "Turn this country around. We need to stop being losers, guys..." | Matthew McAndrew (Trump) | 04:37 | | "You've insulted every woman in this room." | Yasmin Ali (as Hillary Clinton) | 13:23 | | "My gratitude always goes back to baseball itself..." | Roger Angell | 18:47 | | "This is the Hillary Clinton campaign, not the Bill Clinton campaign."| Yasmin Ali (as Hillary Clinton) | 09:31 | | "Old people are like everyone else. We need connection. We need love."| Roger Angell | 35:00 | | "I used to love to make paper airplanes... that's like a blog." | Roger Angell | 29:58 | | "There is… a feel to it that sends a message... that we're not all equal."| Jackie Biskupski | 46:01 | | "I generally have a rule where I don't like to read books written by men because I hear enough from them every day at work."| Amelia Lester| 52:36 | | "I got tired of TV and automobiles, so I just took off and jumped in the river."| Dick Conant | 39:44 |

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Engagement & Tone

• The episode artfully mixes serious journalism, humor, literature, and personal reflection.
• Each segment maintains the characteristic New Yorker blend: intellectual curiosity, urbanity, and warmth.

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Suggested Listening Guide with Timestamps

• [00:00–02:32] – Comic opener: Lena Dunham & Alison Williams (funny, sharp cultural commentary)
• [02:32–16:53] – Townsend Harris high-school political simulation: student engagement, media, debate, and reflection
• [17:53–38:27] – Roger Angell: Baseball, writing, aging, editing, memory, and love
• [39:54–49:52] – Jackie Biskupski & the Mormon Church: Progress, religious policy, and Salt Lake City's changing landscape
• [50:26–53:07] – Amelia Lester’s pop culture picks: TV and literary recommendations, gendered reading habits
• [53:13–54:32] – Next week’s teaser: Dick Conant, canoe adventurer

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Summary Takeaway

Episode 7 offers a lively, thoughtful mix of youthful political engagement, literary mastery, candid discussions of personal and societal change, and cultural recommendations. Whether dissecting the spectacle of American elections, reliving baseball’s poetic glories, or probing the boundaries of tolerance in Salt Lake City, the New Yorker Radio Hour manages to be as entertaining as it is enlightening.

Transcript

[Lena Dunham]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. Hey, girls. So great to see you at Mike's party on New Year's. Do you want to grab drinks? Yes, I'd love to. Tuesday? Tuesday's my friend Rachel's birthday. I'm the worst. What about Wednesday? Wednesday works. Let's email next week about where to go. Yay. I am total garbage at scheduling and forgot we were supposed to meet up tonight. Could you do Monday? So, so sorry. I feel terrible. Omg. Do not feel terrible. If you're garbage, then I am like the Deepwater Horizon oil spill. Because Monday doesn't work. What about tomorrow? I am worse than the rollout of healthcare.gov. tomorrow's no good. Hopefully I'll get my act together by next week. Hug. Hey. Yeah, we both totally dropped the ball on this. We are like the subprime lending crisis of hanging out, right? You around on Wednesday? I want to go back to that tapas place. Shoot, Wednesday doesn't work. Dare I say Friday? Friday's no good. I am literally Operation Rolling Thunder mixed with the NFL's policy on domestic violence. But what you gonna do right Monday? Lunch. Lunch it is. So excited about our lunch date. 12:30. This is basically just a joke at this point, but I have this dumb meeting about records retention that got pushed back to one. You don't have to tell me that I'm mercury poisoning hooking up with the crusades in the bathroom at Fat's wedding to voter suppression because I know. Sorry. Don't worry about it. Dude, how's tonight? Can't tonight. Tomorrow. Oh, no. Sorry to be Aaron Sorkin eating toothpaste right from the tube. But my writing group meets tomorrow. Then Wednesday I have a thing. It's too hard to explain. And on Friday, I have dinner with some work people. You're gonna think that I'm the Salem Witch Trials giving Osama bin Laden a massage at a spa run by the California drought. But I'm also pretty busy next week. How about the 9th, though? The 9th works great. Yay.

[Alison Williams]

Y.

[Lena Dunham]

These girls are so dumb. They're so dumb. I love that they're so smart. But smart. Do you need us to do it one more time? Just so you have it. I'm Lena Dunham. I'm Alison Williams, and you're listening to the New Yorker Radio Hour.

[Alison Williams]

Why are we both doing this?

[Lena Dunham]

I don't know. I also almost said I'm Lena Dunham, and you're listening to New York Radio Hour. We should mix it up.

[David Remnick]

I'm David Remnick, and thanks for joining us again at the New Yorker Radio Hour, that was Lena Dunham and Alison Williams from HBO's show Girls. They were performing a piece by Kelly Stout. Let's get drinks. Now. Our next story is about young people, but even younger high school kids, to be exact. Josh Rothman, who's an editor at the New Yorker, spent a lot of time this fall at a public high school where every year the senior class gets involved in reenacting elections. One year, it can be a city council seat or a judge. This year, it's the whole shebang. This year, they're doing the presidential race, Donald Trump and all.

[Matthew McAndrew (as Donald Trump)]

If any of you don't know I'm Donald Trump, But, I mean, everyone here should know that by now, if they've even watched the news. I mean, the media loves me, guys. I'm all over it all day, every day, right?

[Josh Rothman]

If you're wondering who you're listening to, his name is Matthew McAndrew, and he's a senior at Townsend Harris High School. He's been given the most coveted assignment of the fall being Donald Trump. Luckily, with so many candidates running for president right now, there are a lot of starring roles to go around. Max Lacoma. I'm playing Jeb Bush.

[Yasmin Ali]

Hi, my name is Yasmin Ali. I'm a senior at Townsend Harris, and in the election simulation, I'm playing. Playing Hillary Clinton.

[David Remnick]

Hello, my name is Jacob Hutter, and.

[Jacob Hutter]

I played Bernie Sanders in the election simulation game.

[Josh Rothman]

Do you like Ben Carson in real life?

[Jacob Hutter]

No, not at all.

[Josh Rothman]

So why did you want.

[Jacob Hutter]

What drew you to.

[Josh Rothman]

He's a neurosurgeon, and I thought this.

[Jacob Hutter]

Might be the closest I'll ever get.

[David Remnick]

To being a doctor.

[Josh Rothman]

I visited Townsend Harris for their big kickoff rally, which the whole senior class comes together in a courtyard outside the school. Everyone gives big, exciting speeches. These are incredibly smart students. They're some of the smartest kids you'll ever meet. And the whole senior class participates. So there are pollsters, there are newspaper reporters, there are even super PACs and fundraisers. And money is a really big part of the simulation. So when I met them, some of the students were just getting into their roles, and others were totally naturals to.

[Matthew McAndrew (as Donald Trump)]

Turn this country around. We need to stop being losers, guys. We're losing to China, we losing to Mexico financially in our education and on the border. And something you should know about me, I refuse to lose.

[Jacob Hutter]

All right?

[Matthew McAndrew (as Donald Trump)]

Trump is not a loser.

[David Remnick]

10 seconds.

[Matthew McAndrew (as Donald Trump)]

Don't rush me. We need to turn this country around before it's too late. And I'm your man. Okay. We are going to make America great again. Thank you.

[Yasmin Ali]

You are listening to Hawk radio 201.6.

[Josh Rothman]

Just like in the real presidential election, the kids make the rounds on political talk shows.

[Yasmin Ali]

Hello, welcome to Morning Hawk. I'm your host, Danielle. And I'm Jacqueline. It's time for the Townsend minute. Last Friday, students gathered to attend the presidential primary school election simulation kickoff rally where candidates in special interest groups were able to discuss their goals for the future of America. At the kickoff rally, Jeb Bush and Hillary Clinton were very confident with their speeches and seemed to win over the crowd. I'm Hillary Clinton and I'm.

[Jacob Hutter]

Hey, everybody, I'm Jeb Bush.

[Josh Rothman]

America's in a big problem right now.

[Yasmin Ali]

Donald Trump brought a comedic approach with his statement, don't rush me. 10 seconds.

[Matthew McAndrew (as Donald Trump)]

Don't rush me.

[Yasmin Ali]

Carly Fiorina seemed distant, and although Bernie Sanders started off roughly, he managed to regain composure.

[David Remnick]

It's time that we allow our future children and grandchildren to live the life that they should by allowing universal health care.

[Yasmin Ali]

And that's your Townsend minute. We have Jeb Bush in the studio today. Remember, this is a call in show, so please call us at 5113 with questions or comments. Hello, Jeb Bush, how are you?

[Josh Rothman]

I'm good, Jacqueline, how are you?

[Jacob Hutter]

Good.

[Yasmin Ali]

So, Jeb, Hillary Clinton is currently in the lead of the Democratic race. Why do you believe you deserve the presidency over her? And what makes you, as a candidate, the right fit for the presidency of America? Okay, caller, please, please hold.

[Josh Rothman]

I think Hillary Clinton is a criminal and a liar. She can't be trusted. There's too many blurry things about her like the Benghazi scandal and the email scandal. And we don't need a president who can't be trusted. And for me, I've proven myself. I've fixed the economy in Florida. I grew it by 4% for eight years and created millions of jobs. And I'm fit for president, so I've proven myself.

[Yasmin Ali]

Thank you for visiting us at Morning Hawk. Jeb Bush, you know what time it is.

[Josh Rothman]

The campaigns also run political ads and they take a lot of creative liberty.

[Yasmin Ali]

C to the A to the rly vote. Carly Fiorina, I'll tell you why. She's not gonna fill our nation with any more problems. Unlike her opponents, she can actually solve them. Education makes you want to walk out of the door. No more. She's off the common core. She supports small biz in the DREAM Act. I'm not fooling. She's not even Scared of Vladimir Putin, President Trump, Carson Bush, and even Ted Cruz. Cause unlike them, she is never, ever gonna lose. If you want to live in a greater usa, then college arena on election day.

[Josh Rothman]

So I should point out that Townsend Harris is a pretty unique public high school. It's incredibly elite, it's incredibly competitive. Kids from around New York City apply to get in. On the whole, it's pretty liberal, but there are definitely some conservative kids. So you're Jeb?

[Jacob Hutter]

Yes.

[Josh Rothman]

Hey, I'm Josh. Hi, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Do you like Jeb Bush? I do. I'm one of the only conservative people in this school and I agree with his views. I agree with a lot of the conservative candidates views. So it'll be pretty easy for me to portray that. Is there any possibility that it would actually be better to be unsympathetic to your candidate's point of view? I don't necessarily agree with his immigration policy. He's a little more moderate with his immigration. I'm more towards Trump on immigration policy in real life. So that's, I think, the most drastic thing that I'll have to say lie about. Okay. Now, Townsend Harris is in Queens, which is the most diverse borough in New York City. And more than half of the students are from immigrant families. So that means that the real Donald Trump's message about immigration is not one that's going to go over very well with the student body. And unfortunately for the fake Donald Trump, he's just stuck with it. He has to mirror the candidate that he's been assigned.

[Matthew McAndrew (as Donald Trump)]

I agree that there are some good Mexicans, but right now, the ones that are coming into this country are, are bringing with them their crime, their drug use, and it's really just not helping our country get better.

[Yasmin Ali]

Thank you, Mr. Trump. Now let's take a quick commercial break.

[Josh Rothman]

These kids really learn the facts about their candidates. In some ways, they're more informed than the average voter. But they also have to confront the pervasive BS of our political system. The media love to ask gotcha questions, and the candidates get really good at dodging them. Hillary, in particular, is a master of the art of the pivot. Your husband is former President Bill Clinton. Do you feel that you are running in his shadow? And if elected, how would you run things differently?

[Yasmin Ali]

Well, I don't like to compare my campaign to my husband's because I am running a separate campaign. This is the Hillary Clinton campaign, not the Bill Clinton campaign. And I don't believe we can truly compare our economic policies because his Policy was enforced during a completely different financial situation. But my plan does call for more investment in infrastructure, scientific research, a greater tax relief for the middle class, and a system that can create affordable education.

[Josh Rothman]

It seems like the major challenge that you guys have to overcome is like boredom with Hillary, like familiarity. It's not like Donald Trump. Like, everyone wants to interview Donald Trump, but you guys don't have that right.

[Jacob Hutter]

I think.

[Yasmin Ali]

Yeah, I don't think Hillary is looked at as a entertaining candidate, but I believe that if we inform ourselves to the best of our abilities, that a candidate for presidency should be knowledgeable and not necessarily an entertainer.

[Josh Rothman]

Just like in real life, the media and the candidates have partly an adversarial relationship where, you know, hard hitting reporters are asking tough questions. But also, just like in real life, they also work together to make politics as entertaining as possible.

[Yasmin Ali]

And we're back. It's time. It's time for the Golden Hawks. All results were taken from either the newspaper or information gathered from social media. I'm sorry, caller, we're not taking any more calls. So the best Facebook page goes to Donald Trump. He had the most posts and likes. And the worst candidate in the polls is John kasich, with only 3% of freshman support and and 0% from sophomores, juniors and seniors. Mr. Kasich, would you like to respond?

[Jacob Hutter]

I don't know.

[David Remnick]

Vote for me on election Day.

[Yasmin Ali]

Okay.

[Josh Rothman]

That's all I have to say. Obviously we're listening to high school kids, but at the same time, the longer that I spent at the election simulation, the more I started to wonder how different is real politics from high school fundamentally.

[Yasmin Ali]

And the best TV commercial is Bush, Rubio and Cruz with their popular ad Stump the Trump.

[Josh Rothman]

Okay. I mean, it's not exactly like high school, but I have to say it would be pretty amazing if the real Jeb Bush, Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio got together to make one anti Donald Trump attack. What do you even expect to achieve? At least I don't try to support our immigrants. So it's all pretty fun, but it's also pretty serious because there are real issues that are really at stake and real feelings really do come into play. And that all came to a head during the debate when those feelings really blew up. Mr. Rubio, can I ask you something? In 2007, you said climate change was real. And then when you started running for senator for Florida, you said that it didn't exist because we didn't have enough scientific evidence to prove it. Can you explain your Clinton here on Flip Off? It's a little hard to understand, but what just happened was Jeb Bush challenged Marco Rubio's statements about climate change by saying, you flip flop just like Hillary Clinton. At this point, Hillary, who's been waiting in the wings, strides on stage and she is pissed.

[Yasmin Ali]

Well, Hillary's question was directed to me as well, Margarita.

[Josh Rothman]

It wasn't. It was directed towards Mr. Naturally she defends herself.

[Yasmin Ali]

You're saying that I flip up on issues, but we need someone who's proactive, we need someone who's opinion.

[Josh Rothman]

Then Donald Trump crosses a line. He accuses Hillary of PMSing and the crowd goes absolutely nutsing.

[Yasmin Ali]

Every single woman in this room.

[Josh Rothman]

You've insulted every woman in this room. She says 70% of the students in this school are women. When you're, when you're in the debate and you're being Donald Trump and you're saying crazy Donald Trump stuff like do you have to, I don't know. Did that give you any insight into the real Donald?

[Matthew McAndrew (as Donald Trump)]

There's definitely like a line to be drawn when you're talking in a school. But I mean, I don't think he sees that even when it's like nationally national tv. But I mean it was definitely like a different experience where you can really just say whatever's on your mind and like not really have any punishment for it. Even though there was almost like consequences in the school after that.

[Jacob Hutter]

No way.

[Josh Rothman]

Really?

[Matthew McAndrew (as Donald Trump)]

Yeah. There was talks of kicking us out of the campaign, like just eliminating our campaign in general after that because they felt it was not something that should be said in a school. But the government teachers argued that it was, we were staying accurate with our candidates. So they decided to let us keep running.

[Jacob Hutter]

Yeah.

[Josh Rothman]

In general, do you think that your experience here and the dynamics between Hillary and the Republicans here are representative of what's happening in the real world?

[Yasmin Ali]

I think so because I think both debates were very like, were basically a mirror image of what happened in the actual debates. The Republicans were very off topic. The Democrats were very calm and on topic. But what Hillary does most of the time is she doesn't really attack her, her fellow Democrats. She more so attacks the Republican candidates and especially Donald Trump. I know she has her and Donald go back and forth all the time, so I think I'm pretty sure this does go on in real life. Hello, Townsend Harris, welcome to Morninghawk. Don't forget to vote next Monday during lunch bands 4, 5, 6 and 7. You'll need to know your TownsendHarris.org login information and voting will hopefully be available before and after school as well. Good morning, Townsend Harris.

[David Remnick]

Here are the results of the election simulation primary election in the Republican Party.

[Jacob Hutter]

Jeb Bush.

[Jackie Biskupski]

Morning, Hillary Clinton.

[David Remnick]

Thank you everybody for coming out to vote. And thank you for a wonderful election simulation.

[Jacob Hutter]

And here are the morning announcements.

[Josh Rothman]

Looking back on the whole simulation, I have to say I'm of two minds. On the one hand, it made me really optimistic about the future. I was so impressed by these students. I thought they were amazing. And not only did they learn a lot about politics, but they really care about the issues. And I hope a lot of them are in charge someday. On the other hand, the political system that they so effectively emulated is totally messed up. That's one of the things that it captured. So if I had to sum it up, I'd say I wish the system they were simulating was a little more admirable and a little less like high school.

[Yasmin Ali]

Chilling on the first floor, strolling around, wondering what all the fuss floating was about news giving fake sass and laughing like hyenas. And all of a sudden I heard about Carly Fiorina. Ooh, she's too real. Down with the Dream act and the Kinsey Ram deal. Now that I know her, I haven't been left to say. Except now I know what I'm gonna do. Monday I'm voting Carly on election day. Cause she'll really make our country great. Equality for women and men and power to the state will be given again. Go. Her crew was ill. Her intelligence has no chill. So on election day, don't forget Carly Fiorina is your best bet.

[David Remnick]

I'm not sure I'm ever gonna be able to look at Carly Fiorina the same way again. That was Josh Rothman with students from Townsend Harris High School in New York. I'm David Remnick. Still to come on the New Yorker Radio Hour, a conversation with the new mayor of Salt Lake City, who's gay, about how she's dealing with the Mormon Church. And I'll talk in a minute with the great Roger Angell, who's been writing for the New Yorker for, it's amazing 70 years and still going strong. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. Stick around. I'm David Remnick, and this is the New Yorker Radio Hour. Roger Angell first wrote for the New Yorker in 1944, and in the 70 years since, he's published just about everything imaginable. He's been fiction editor. He's written an annual Christmas poem. He sat in as a movie critic for Pauline Kael and reviewed Jean Luc Godard's Breathless. Last year, his essay on aging and loss and love won the National Magazine Award. And that piece, this Old man, is the title piece in his new book. But chances are, if you know Roger Angel's work, you probably know him as the best baseball writer in the history of the game. And for this he was inducted two summers ago at Cooperstown in the Baseball hall of Fame. Let's hear a little bit of his speech at that induction.

[Jacob Hutter]

So this is a thrill for me as well as an honor. The roster of Spink honorees is stuffed with old heroes of mine like Red Smith and Tom Meaney, and with baseball writer friends who have also been models and heroes. Folks like Jerome Holtzman and Peter Gammons and Bill Madden, who were so quick to put me at my ease in the clubhouse and to fill me in whenever I turned up again. My gratitude always goes back to baseball itself, which turned out to be so familiar and so startling, so spacious and exacting, so easy looking and so heartbreakingly difficult that it filled up my notebooks in Seasons in a Rush. A pastime indeed.

[David Remnick]

That was an amazing day, Roger. I just wonder, you know, a year and a half later, looking back at it, what it meant to you. You've been writing about baseball for a long time, since the early 60s.

[Jacob Hutter]

I was extremely anxious beforehand and I was anxious about so many friends of mine who were coming up this enormous distance. I thought it was not going to be very good. And I actually was using little mahlocks near the end and I lost some weight, but the minute I got there, it was just terrific.

[David Remnick]

But you had to invent a voice for this. You had to figure out a way of covering baseball. God knows that baseball, especially when you began, was the focus for sports writers. In fact, in the 50s, the most.

[Jacob Hutter]

The prestige sports were boxing sports guys were in.

[David Remnick]

In baseball?

[Jacob Hutter]

Yeah. In baseball, yeah. I approached it with sheer terror. I didn't know what I was doing. I was a baseball fan, I'd been a writer, but I'd not written about baseball only a little bit. And I was very self conscious, talking to the players, really, quite, quite scared.

[David Remnick]

Why is that?

[Jacob Hutter]

Well, I felt that they would know more than I did. They wouldn't. What's this guy doing here? I was shy and a little bit nervous. So what I did was to sit in the stands at first and because I'd felt I didn't realize that nobody was writing about the fans and I was a fan and I could sit in the stands and be a fan. And also Be a writer.

[David Remnick]

Is the press box a bad place to cover things from?

[Jacob Hutter]

No, I don't think so, but once you get used to it. But I wasn't at ease in the press box yet.

[David Remnick]

One of the things that always amazed me about your baseball riding is that you have a tone of a happy man, of someone who's going at this at his leisure. And that all the difficulty of writing, which we know to be the case, is somehow way out of the frame. That there is this voice of someone just in love with what he's watching. That's hard to achieve.

[Jacob Hutter]

Well, it developed over the years. I didn't really plan it in advance. It was just. It was some kind of me.

[David Remnick]

What was the kind of sports writing that you couldn't stand? What were you trying to avoid?

[Jacob Hutter]

Actually, when I started, Sean said, William.

[David Remnick]

Shaw on the editor.

[Jacob Hutter]

William Shaw, my editor said, why don't you get onto spring training and take a look? And he said, we don't want to be sentimental and we don't want to be tough guys. You know, there are two things to avoid.

[David Remnick]

Did Sean know anything about baseball?

[Jacob Hutter]

Nothing. Nothing. My first piece, he came into my office carrying the galleys. My first piece in that spring training. And he pointed to a place on the. On the page. And he said, what's this? And I looked and I said, that's a double play, Bill. And he said, what's a double play? And I explained it to him and his cheeks glowed with excitement. It was something new.

[David Remnick]

Did you find it harder to talk with players as time went by, as you got a little older, did you gravitate more toward coaches and managers than players?

[Jacob Hutter]

Once they call you Siri, you're in big trouble. I gravitated toward good talkers, as I've said before.

[David Remnick]

But did they thin out is what I mean. Did the good talkers become less and less numerous?

[Jacob Hutter]

Yes, I think so. It's very. I mean, when I got over 80, it was impossible for me to talk to players really, because they would say sir. And also, as you've said, the habit of talking openly as a person, not as a very well paid celebrity, semi celebrity ball player, is pretty well gone.

[David Remnick]

It's because it's a big difference when the ball players are making about as much as a solid orthodontist, and now they're making as much as an oligarch.

[Jacob Hutter]

Sure, but you did pay attention, as I did. I would carry notes and write endlessly, like long notes and keep my ears open and listen for something. I remember being outside the office of Jim Fry, the Kansas City manager, after his great star, George Brenne, had another extraordinary day at the plate. And I'm waiting to go in to see the manager. And there are two old coaches at their lockers just outside the door in their underwear and clogs talking. A couple of country guys, and one of them says to the other, everything that George hits goes through the infield like a stream of milk. And this country image. And I wrote it down. I wrote it down. Wow. Thank you.

[David Remnick]

You wait days for things like that in the nonfiction game, Roger. You practice nonfiction, as it were, by night and fiction by day. For years and years, you were the fiction editor of the New Yorker. To this day, you read short stories for us and in the fiction department. Tell us a little bit about what that life is. What does it mean to be a fiction editor?

[Jacob Hutter]

The image of an editor is somebody who is taking away the wonderfully original, perfect writing above a young, talented or.

[David Remnick]

Brilliant writer, crushing their spirit forever.

[Jacob Hutter]

It isn't quite that way. Writing is very hard, as you know. It's really hard to get it right for anybody. And if you're doing it all your life, and it's still hard to write a good sentence and a good paragraph sometimes. And the flood of fiction that we buy had great variety. Some of the best fiction writers we had needed heavy, heavy editing.

[David Remnick]

Who, for example?

[Jacob Hutter]

Well, I came aboard in the 50s and John Cheever was still writing. And I saw off Cheever Prouth, which had just all the way through, all the way down, every column. There was heavy editing by an editor. He did not write finished copy. What he wrote was great, but it needed a lot of tailoring.

[David Remnick]

That's an amazing thing to hear, that John Cheever, who reads in this incredibly crystalline way, was edited unto a fare thee will.

[Jacob Hutter]

Well edited with him. I mean, we never edited without the writer being there. There was never anything was added to a story or taken away without the writers being right there and agreeing to the process.

[David Remnick]

And how did he react to the editing to know that each sentence was getting altered in some way?

[Jacob Hutter]

Well, I think Cheever hated the editing, but then knew that he needed it. His editor was a wonderful editor. It was my editor when I was writing fiction, Gus Lebrano. And they got along well, but he wasn't a very good tempered writer, let's say. And so I don't think he took too happily to it. But the process really becomes a very intimate one. And the writer depends and counts on the editor. And they're doing this together. You're There, either on the phone or by letter or somewhere side by side, looking at the text and you're going through it. And in fiction editing, a very significant thing, the tone is right. Is this too cynical? Is it too sentimental? Is it too brisk? Is it too distant? The difficulty lies on the page and between the two of you. You're trying to get this right and to tone something down, take something out.

[David Remnick]

Did any writers refuse this process at all?

[Jacob Hutter]

Some are much more difficult than others. But as a writer myself, I relied on my editor. So I knew that I needed editing like everybody else. And I had very close relations with wonderful editors like Gardner Botsford or Chip McGrath or now Ann Goldstein.

[David Remnick]

Was this bread in the bone with you? I think some of our listeners will know that your mother really had singular responsibility for introducing serious fiction to the New Yorker. Katherine White was the person who brought real fiction to the New Yorker. And you must have grown up hearing about this process and knowing this process.

[Jacob Hutter]

My stepfather was E.B. white, who was E.B. white and writing for the magazine every week. And my mother and stepfather's house was full of galleys and pencils and racer rubbings and conversation about the magazine and about Harold Ross and about the writers of the day. And sure, I paid close attention, but I wasn't planning to be a New Yorker editor or to be a New Yorker writer.

[David Remnick]

What were you planning on?

[Jacob Hutter]

I was hoping to be maybe boy naturalist. A herpetologist was my first aim. But I did pay attention, and they were doing the same thing. And my mother was editing Vladimir Nabokov and people like that.

[David Remnick]

How did Nabokov take editing?

[Jacob Hutter]

With his usual haughty way. And the famous Nabokov editing was by the great New Yorker founding editor Harold Ross, who loved clarity above all and was not classically or much educated, but loved clearness. And in the middle of some terrific Nabokov mem. I think part of his Speak memory pieces, his wonderful memorial memories about his family. There's a line at the dinner table and somebody says, pass the nutcracker. And one of Harold Ross's endless queries. He always had about 20 or 30 queries about every piece of copy. He said, from the evidence we've been given so far, I would have assumed that the Nabokos were more than one nutcracker family. So Raoul, Dahlia.

[David Remnick]

I was looking through some letters that came to Harold Ross and Roald Dahl, who wrote all those great children's books, but also a number of things for the New Yorker and memoir pieces for the New Yorker. Wrote a Scathing letter to Ross complaining about the editing and the number of commas that had been injected into things. And he says, it's as if you would take a great comma shaker and sprinkled commas throughout my class.

[Jacob Hutter]

Well, that was our style. Yeah, it's lightened up a little bit.

[David Remnick]

Roger, what does age do for your writing? How does it affect things? How does it either deepen your work or make it more difficult? What's the effect of time on a writer's house?

[Jacob Hutter]

I'm not sure. I mean, I'm aware of my waning powers, I really am, but I can't. I'm not writing long pieces. I'm not going out there and writing another 10 or 12,000 word baseball piece. I'm not sure.

[David Remnick]

And that's a matter of what? Getting up and down stadium steps, doing.

[Jacob Hutter]

The interviewing and doing the traveling and taking the time. A lot of hard work. And it's hard for me to get around. It's hard for me to see, it's hard for me to hear a little bit. And I'm doing much. I'm very happy to fall back and do posts and blogs.

[David Remnick]

This is the amazing thing. You are in your mid-90s, I hope you don't mind me saying. I think you're perfectly aware of it. And yet, sentence by sentence, you're as funny and as touching and as good a writer as you ever were. And you've taken to the Internet in a way a lot of people resisted. You took right to it.

[Jacob Hutter]

Well, I like the brevity of the blog. You can make it quite short. You could just go on as long as you want to go and then just stop. It's sort of like making a paper airplane. No, it's about. I used to love to make paper airplanes. I made great paper airplanes. And you throw it out the window and it goes a little ways or a turn, it occurs beautifully and then it goes out of sight and is forgotten forever. And that's like a blog.

[David Remnick]

Do you like the immediacy of the Internet? You're putting up a post and at 6 o' clock it's there and bang, you're getting a.

[Jacob Hutter]

Well, it's taking me till the middle of the afternoon sometimes, but fair enough. But no. I can sort of see the end when I'm starting, which is not bad.

[David Remnick]

Now, tell me about this new book. You've put together an enormous range of things you've got in here. Some obituaries that were published in the New Yorker or online. You've got A couple of long sustained essays that we'll talk about, some baseball writing letters. The book is called this Old man by Roger Angell, all in Pieces.

[Jacob Hutter]

Roger, this old man, Roger Angell, all in Pieces. Well, I'm a little tired of the joke in the title already.

[David Remnick]

But tell me about the book itself.

[Jacob Hutter]

Well, I wrote the piece this Old Man. I started the piece in 2013, I think late in the year, and I think handed it to you along about February, something like that.

[David Remnick]

It came as a complete surprise to me. You just plopped it on my desk, done it.

[Jacob Hutter]

Well, I wrote it in different pieces. I didn't quite know what I was doing and it was about physical debility. And it starts off with a description of my arthritic hands, which you say.

[David Remnick]

The tips of your fingers look like they've been the subject of torture by the kgb.

[Jacob Hutter]

Yeah. If I point my forefinger at you like a pistol and fire it for your nose, I'll hit you in the knee. But I describe some of the everyday debilities of age and I didn't quite know what I was doing, but I knew that loss was at the middle of this. I had lost my wife, we were married for 48 years and I'd lost a daughter and a beloved dog of Carol's and mine went out the fifth floor window in the middle of a threw in panic, jumped out the window on the fifth floor and was killed. Losses for people my age are common. Ed Hirsch, the wonderful poet, lost his son and wrote a great book about it last year and he says that anybody over the age of 65 has a 100 pound bag of cement of loss on his shoulders. And he writes about writing about the loss of his son and he says you can't make a story out of it, you can't do that with a life. So I didn't know how to touch on these subjects and I didn't know if I wanted to even. And I did so actually through the loss of the dog. I'd written a piece about losing my wife, losing Carol, called Over the Wall, which sort of began this process. And I waited six months just after the first Obama election. She died in April. And I said she didn't know this news and she didn't know about the hurricane that fall and lot of things she didn't know. And I said the dead don't know what's happening and the dead leave quickly. And I quoted a Kenneth Koch poem, say le mort vin vite, did it go quickly? And there's a line in that which says, no more scenes in the bedroom. No more waiting in the hall, waiting to say hello. With mixed feelings, perfect line. I described the death of Harry, this dog, and then threw in that. Carol and I wept. We couldn't get over weeping for him. And he lay in our bathroom between us on the floor and we threw Kleenex back and forth. And I said we were also weeping for my daughter, Callie, who'd committed suicide a couple years earlier. And events that we couldn't just get our minds around in any way. But it was for both. But I don't want to dwell on this. I don't want to make much of this, because everybody's experienced loss. And there are many changes of mood through this piece. I patched the thing together, and some of the sadder little moments, paragraphs that are hard to take, are often followed by a joke or a lighter moment. There's some actual jokes in there, and it's okay, because I like to take jokes. I count on jokes myself. I'm known to tell jokes.

[David Remnick]

And there's also the opposite of loss. There's new love.

[Jacob Hutter]

Yes. And this was happening. I was finding someone new in my life, my present wife, Peggy. And this was going on and dishonored. I wanted to say that. And time was going by and I was still engaged in life. And I said that old people are like. Like everyone else. We need connection. We need love.

[David Remnick]

We need intimate love and a hand on the shoulder. I mean, there's sex. I mean, the piece ends with, in a sense, life against all other things.

[Jacob Hutter]

Against all odds. Against all odds, yes. But I wanted to say what was happening with me which happens with other old people. Old people fall in love. Old people have a love life, have intimate connections, have sex lives. And people don't like to admit this.

[David Remnick]

Mostly their children, but because they're somehow revolted by it.

[Jacob Hutter]

Well, it's. But I think people are getting over this because it's now known. I mean, it's not something to be repelled by. It's something to be grateful for. This brings up something else which I've noticed with writers that I've dealt with now and then, if a writer lives long enough. This didn't just happen much with American writers. Famous thing about American writers was there are no second acts in American lives for writers. But writers that go on and on often go back, as Updike did, go back to the same subjects again and again. He went back to his mother, to the sandstone field farmhouse, to his father, to his teenage courting years, and did the Same story, really, again and again, but much better each time with increased feeling. Some of the very best stories he wrote for us were at the very end. And the same thing happened with another writer of mine that I edited over a period of 40 years. VS Pritchett, the great British writer in his middle 80s, suddenly got on this amazing hot streak, writing some of the greatest stories of his life. Full of life, full of sex, full of amour and adventures and comedy and childhood things all rushing out of him. And I think that all of us do this at any age because we go basically go over the same material in our minds again and again, the stories that really mean a lot to us. And it's not. We're trying to get them right, but we're trying to. We're not trying to change the outcome, but we're trying to keep them or to say, was this the way it was? And psychologists and experts on the subject say that this is what memory is. It isn't just a defensive thing to protect us from falling out of a tree when the tiger's passing by, but it is a trying out of a scenario again and again because it may be of use. That's what memory is. And this is why the same scenes recur after I wrote scenes. A lot of this personal stuff I used to have dreams about or think about over. And once I put them down and get them published, I don't think about them anymore. It's very strange. It goes away when you go back.

[David Remnick]

And read your earlier stuff, do you recognize it? Does it feel like you.

[Jacob Hutter]

Not the very early stuff, no. It feels like Hemingway.

[David Remnick]

And can you relate at all to a decision like Philip Roth's to stop writing?

[Jacob Hutter]

Well, I haven't got there yet. I'm thinking of not blogging anymore because I don't think my blogs are quite up to what they were.

[David Remnick]

But I'll be the judge of that.

[Jacob Hutter]

I'll keep going. Please. No, I don't want to stop. I like to have it still going on a bit. And then this way, once again, I think I'm extremely lucky. I'm 95 and still writing. My goodness. I mean, I'm startled and very happy.

[David Remnick]

I'm happy to be here with you always, Roger. Thank you very much.

[Jacob Hutter]

Thanks. Thank you, David.

[David Remnick]

The great Roger angel, el supremo. He's the author of many, many books on baseball and most recently, the collection of essays, this Old Man. I'm David Remnick, and this is the New Yorker Radio Hour. More to come. I'm David Remnick. And welcome back to the New Yorker Radio Hour. Next week on the show, we're going to bring you the story of a remarkable man named Dick Conant. In the town where he lived, he was homeless, but on the river he was a modern day adventurer, something out of a Mark Twain story. And he took amazing journeys all over the country by canoe.

[Jacob Hutter]

August 20, 1999, some guy and his wife woke me up from a nap at Lewis and Clark State Park. He asked me if that was my rig in the river. I said the red canoe was mine. He asked me where I was going.

[David Remnick]

I said the Gulf of Mexico.

[Jacob Hutter]

He asked me eventually why. I told him I got tired of TV and automobiles, so I just took off and jumped in the river.

[David Remnick]

He and his wife stared at me blankly.

[Jacob Hutter]

Like Pat Schroeder used to say, some of you people just don't get it.

[David Remnick]

That's next week on the New Yorker Radio Hour. It's not necessarily front page news anymore when a gay man or woman, of course, is elected to public office. Houston as a gay mayor, Seattle, Santa Fe, Chapel Hill, but Salt Lake City electing a gay woman for mayor caught a lot of people's attention, especially because just days after the election, the Mormon Church announced a new policy that basically bars children of same sex couples until those children are grown. The New Yorker's David Haglin has been following the story and just spoke with the mayor elect, Jackie Biskupski. David, you were born in Salt Lake City and grew up in the Mormon Church. Did it surprise you to see a gay woman elected there? Not especially.

[David Haglund]

Salt Lake City is far more liberal than people outside the region probably realize. It's basically to Utah what Austin is to Texas. It's the state capital. It's where the largest public university is. And if you live in the state or even in the region and you're a progressive person, Salt Lake City is probably where you want to be.

[David Remnick]

And where's the church been on gay rights?

[David Haglund]

Well, people probably remember Proposition 8, which the Church was a huge force behind passing in California, which barred same sex marriage there for a time. And it is not welcoming, particularly to gay people. It considers same sex attraction not a sin, but it considers acting on same sex attraction a sin. So I asked Waskupski, who's not from Utah originally and didn't grow up Mormon, why she moved to the state in the first place and why she decided to stay.

[Jackie Biskupski]

You know, I came here on a ski trip after I graduated from college and I just never left. I fell in love with the Mountains here. And then I started a small business that I had for several years that led me to a job that enabled me to run for the legislature. So I just kept staying and made it my home.

[David Haglund]

And did you feel welcome from the start? So this was the 1990s. Is that right when you moved there, or was it earlier?

[Jackie Biskupski]

Yes, it was a really different time. I can remember when I first moved here that if we went to a club and it was a gay club, they made you sign this paper when you came in and put your driver's license number on it. And cops would come in and look at the list. And it was really awkward time and uncomfortable. And it was not popular to be out as a gay person, at least not here in Utah. It pretty much wasn't across the country.

[David Haglund]

If I'm not mistaken at the time. And this is my experience in Utah, bars were technically not allowed in the city. Is that right? So any place that served alcohol was actually a club, which is why you would put your name down when you got there, right?

[Jackie Biskupski]

So you had membership, club memberships. And it is why you put your name on these lists. But when the cops would come in and look at the list, that was a whole other story. It wasn't like we were embraced by law enforcement back then like we are today. And we've come a long way. We really have, since I got elected.

[David Haglund]

And then eventually. So you. You worked in business for a while before running for office. Now, when you were elected to your first public office in 1998, as I understand it, you were Utah's first openly gay state legislator, is that right?

[Jackie Biskupski]

Yes, that's correct.

[David Haglund]

From what I've read during that election, you did face a fair amount of opposition specifically because you're gay. Was that surprising for you, or at that point, were you ready for it? You were expecting that kind of opposition?

[Jackie Biskupski]

You know, it wasn't a surprise because in 97, I had run for the Salt Lake City Council. And during that race, the Eagle Forum and another organization called the alliance for Stronger Families surfaced and were working very hard against me then and then came out in force in my 98 race. That race led to a two thirds majority victory. And I can remember the speaker calling me. There were people from the Eagle Forum asking the speaker to not seat me, that I must be breaking the law since I was a gay person. He called me and was very kind and said, jackie, you will be sworn in like everyone else. You will be treated with respect and dignity. Don't fear what's going on around you and don't listen to what's going on around you. We'll work through this together. And he was great.

[David Haglund]

Since Proposition 8, which the church worked very hard to pass in California, there had been steps taken toward greater inclusiveness. There was a piece of legislation that people referred to as the Utah Compromise, which brought people together to bar discrimination against gay people in Utah. This new policy of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, as it's known, was announced. I wonder, it's maybe somewhat complicated for people who don't know the church well. I wonder if you could describe what that policy is.

[Jackie Biskupski]

So essentially, the policy prohibits children of gay couples from being baptized into the church.

[Jacob Hutter]

Right.

[David Haglund]

And those children can then join the church at 18 if they so desire, but only if they've moved out of their parents house and disavowed the practice of same sex marriage.

[Jackie Biskupski]

Yes. And the policy, I think, has been as hard for the members of the LDS Church as it has been for the LGBTQ families that live here. There is, without question, a feel to it that sends a message to the children in our community that we're not all equal.

[David Haglund]

Yeah. There's a lot of people who have said that it seems unchristian. You have a son yourself, and you've said in a statement that if he wanted to become Mormon, you would support that, and this policy would seem to make him unwelcome.

[Jackie Biskupski]

Yes. And, you know, my son is also African American. And so there are life challenges anyway. And equality will never truly exist for any of us if it doesn't exist for all of us. And so we have a lot of work to do in the broader community here, and I am committed to doing that work.

[David Haglund]

There was some speculation that the timing of this policy, it actually was announced after the election. Do you think that was a coincidence? Did it have anything to do with the fact that you had apparently won?

[Jackie Biskupski]

There's a lot of speculation, obviously, but I did receive a text message from the public affairs leader with the LDS Church denying that that was. That the two were related at all.

[David Haglund]

So you feel like you can trust him and this is not a PR move, that, in fact, it's a total coincidence.

[Jackie Biskupski]

I have to go with what I'm being told and trust that the church.

[David Haglund]

Of course, espoused polygamy in the 19th century and then disavowed the practice toward the end of that century. And having this policy with polygamous families as a way of drawing a line and saying, this is no longer okay. This is not a practice we endorse And I wonder, one, what you make of that. But two, whether, you know, polygamy obviously still goes on to some extent in the shadows, some extent openly in Utah and elsewhere in the west, do you have a responsibility to deal with that as mayor, or is that not an issue you expect to confront?

[Jackie Biskupski]

I don't see polygamy as an issue that I'll be confronting. And again, this is a religious organization, and there have been many people along the way who I've met who are in polygamy, and I don't judge them for that. I do want to make sure that children are safe and that we aren't doing anything in polygamy that puts children at risk. But beyond that, I don't take issue there.

[David Haglund]

So when it comes to plural marriage, as the church has often called in the past, your feeling is that you want to make sure that the children in those families are all right, but in terms of people living that way, kind of in the abstract, you don't see that as a problem or as a law enforcement issue?

[Jackie Biskupski]

You know, I don't personally. Obviously, there are laws around this and that people need to abide by the laws, but I am not somebody who feels like we need to disband polygamy. I just am not one of those people.

[David Haglund]

Do you think the church has a responsibility to foster an atmosphere of tolerance, whatever their own policies may be?

[Jackie Biskupski]

Well, you know, and they have worked, I think, pretty hard since I was first elected in 98, to message very differently around the LGBT community. And initial messaging when I first was elected was very hard to embrace or hear. And where we are today and the dialogue that the LDS Church has about the LGBT community has come a long way. It really has. And there is a great deal more respect in the language and what is being said, and hopefully we will continue to move in that direction.

[David Haglund]

Well, Jackie, thanks again so much. I really appreciate it.

[Jackie Biskupski]

Well, thank you. I'm so excited to serve.

[David Remnick]

That's David Hagland talking with Jackie Biskupski. She'll be sworn in as mayor of Salt Lake City on January 4th. Before we wrap up today, I want to check in with my friend and colleague Amelia Lester, who always seems to know what's happening, what restaurant to go to, what shows to watch. She's the executive editor of newyorker.com and somehow she manages to watch at least as much television as I do. So I asked her what she's been watching lately.

[Alison Williams]

So I was thinking that I had to introduce you to please like me, which Is. I was trying to figure out how to describe it to you. Imagine Larry David meets Lena Dunham in the body of a 21 year old Australian gay man.

[David Remnick]

I'm there with you.

[Alison Williams]

Interest peaked.

[David Remnick]

Why don't we watch?

[Jacob Hutter]

Clip.

[Alison Williams]

Okay.

[David Remnick]

Did you swallow it?

[Josh Rothman]

Yeah, I swallowed him.

[Matthew McAndrew (as Donald Trump)]

Josh, it's in you. It's in my tummy.

[Josh Rothman]

Sick of you just swallowing things all the time.

[Jacob Hutter]

Yeah, now it's in you.

[Josh Rothman]

Just like, pressuring us like a time bomb.

[David Remnick]

No, don't put this on me, okay? You do what you like. I like maths.

[Josh Rothman]

Not maths. It's all making our own individual choices about recreational drugs.

[Jacob Hutter]

Of course, we have to do it now.

[Josh Rothman]

What else would we do? Yeah, just sit around watching you be high. You'll embarrass yourself.

[Alison Williams]

I will not embarrass myself.

[Josh Rothman]

You will.

[Jacob Hutter]

You will.

[Josh Rothman]

You'll be there writhing around in ecstasy, making out with the sofa cushions.

[David Remnick]

That looks good.

[Alison Williams]

I do punch that.

[Josh Rothman]

I think that's gonna be.

[Alison Williams]

Anyway, so then I was thinking about a book I've read. And the problem is, like every other woman in Brooklyn, I've just been reading Elena Ferrante. I just finished the last book, the fourth book, the Lost Child. Have you read Elena Ferrante?

[David Remnick]

Just the Days of Abandonment.

[Alison Williams]

Days of Abandonment. I read that after a breakup, and I really don't recommend anyone do that.

[David Remnick]

That's a really bad idea.

[Alison Williams]

That, along with Blue is the warmest column, meant that I couldn't move with grief for a few days.

[David Remnick]

Well, so I haven't read the series. I have only read Days of Abandonment, which is just astonishing.

[Alison Williams]

Yes, this is very different in feel to Days of Abandonment. So Days of Abandonment is a novella. And of course, this is a four part sort of epic book series, and it's all about how female friendships can be just as complicated as romantic relationships. And it's about these two women who grow up in Naples together, and you follow them through their life, and by the end of the books, you feel like you really know them. And it was sort of a nice contrast to what I read just before that, which was, again, like everyone else in Brooklyn, my reading list is wholly unoriginal. I read Purity by Jonathan Franzen. I generally have a rule where I don't like to read books written by men because I hear enough from them every day at work. So I only like to read books by women. And Ferrante is sort of the.

[David Remnick]

Like, I read around and I. No, I've read Front.

[Alison Williams]

Yes, but you read the novella.

[David Remnick]

It wasn't a novella. It was long enough, for God's sake. Can we go back to the part where you only read books by women because you hear I'm being a little flip?

[Alison Williams]

But I do try and make sure that my reading list skews more women heavy because I just think that's my responsibility.

[David Remnick]

It's always good to see you. See you soon, Amelia.

[Alison Williams]

Bye.

[David Remnick]

Amelia Lester is executive editor of newyorker.com and it's about time I joined her book club. Next week, pianist Robert Glasper joins us for a live performance and a conversation from the studios of wnyc.

[Josh Rothman]

Miles doesn't have a problem with selling records. It's my contemporaries that are having a problem.

[Jacob Hutter]

So my thing is, hey, you know, all jazz doesn't sound alike.

[Josh Rothman]

There's a young, fresh sound out there that has influence of our music. So that's why I chose to do jazz trio. But do songs that people of my time today know, Kendrick Lamar, Janaine Aiko, Bilal, John Legend, Radiohead, you know, because those are people that are relevant now.

[David Remnick]

I'm David Remnick. Thanks for joining us and have a good week.

[Jacob Hutter]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a.

[Josh Rothman]

Co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

[Lena Dunham]

Our theme music was composed and performed.

[Jacob Hutter]

By Meryl Garba, Saint of Tune Yards.

[Josh Rothman]

This episode was produced by Emily Botin.

[David Remnick]

Ave Carrillo, Rhiannon Corby, Jill Duboff, Karen Frillman, David Krasnow, Sarah Nix, Paul Schneider and Steven Valentino, with help from Becky Cooper.