From Critics at Large: After “Wicked,” What Do We Want from the Musical?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The New Yorker Radio Hour – "From Critics at Large: After 'Wicked,' What Do We Want from the Musical?"

Release Date: December 17, 2024
Hosts: Vincent Cunningham, Nomi Fry, and Alex Schwartz
Produced by: WNYC Studios and The New Yorker

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Introduction

In this episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour, hosted by WNYC Studios and The New Yorker, Vincent Cunningham, Nomi Fry, and Alex Schwartz delve into the evolving landscape of musical theater, centering their discussion around the highly anticipated movie adaptation of the Broadway hit "Wicked". The conversation explores not only the film's reception but also broader trends and future directions in the world of musicals.

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Wicked Movie Adaptation

"Wicked", directed by John M. Chu, brings Broadway’s beloved musical to the silver screen with Ariana Grande as Glinda and Cynthia Erivo as Elphaba. Clocking in at 2 hours and 40 minutes, the film is presented as Part One of a planned series.

• Alex Schwartz's Perspective:

  • Length and Pacing: "I can't emphasize enough how long it is. Like, like 40 minutes. Could have lopped off, like, a no miss." (03:29)
  • Performance Praise: "Ariana Grande... delivered pretty sensitive performances... Cynthia Erivo... was just so good at singing." (08:14)
  • Notable Scene Reaction: "He was like. I literally gasped." (10:39)

• Nomi Fry's Insights:

  • Performance Appreciation: "The singing was super strong. Ariana Grande was funny, which I appreciate." (20:29)
  • Critical Scene Analysis: "It just seemed like she wasn't expecting that. So that just took it too far." (10:45)

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Audience Reception and Success of Wicked

Despite its lengthy runtime, "Wicked Part 1" has resonated strongly with audiences, as evidenced by strong box office numbers and pervasive cultural presence. The hosts highlight how the film's emotional depth and character development have captivated viewers, even sparking discussions about underlying themes and character relationships.

• Voyeuristic Press Coverage:
  • Vincent Cunningham: "I feel like I've seen every single interview done by Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande." (03:40)

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Current State of Musicals

The hosts discuss the unstable place of musicals in contemporary culture, noting a dichotomy between jukebox musicals, which leverage nostalgic hits, and IP adaptations, which transform beloved movies into stage productions. This trend, they argue, has marginalized original narratives and creative storytelling within the genre.

• Nomi Fry: "Over the past few months, we've seen several movie musicals... each takes a wildly different approach to the form." (04:49)

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Personal Views on Musicals

Nomi Fry and Alex Schwartz share their personal histories with musicals, revealing a mix of skepticism and fondness. While not ardent fans, they acknowledge exceptions that have left a mark on them.

• Alex Schwartz: "I am historically, historically not a lover of musicals. But I may surprise you today by name checking a couple of favorites." (06:14)
• Vincent Cunningham: "I harbor kind of a soft place in my heart for musicals. In high school, I was in a couple of them." (06:28)

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Emilia Perez: A Contrasting Musical

Shifting focus, the discussion moves to "Emilia Perez", a contemporary musical about a Mexican cartel leader undergoing gender transition. The film, directed by Jacques Odiar, employs a telenovela-inspired style, blending Spanish dialogue with musical elements to heighten emotional experiences.

• Vincent Cunningham on Music Usage:

  • "I find there to be not very many singable songs... there was a very graphic sex scene in it and stuff like that." (28:58)

• Nomi Fry on Artistic Expression:

  • "Musicals do what you're doing... just like the Sound of Music... departures the realist world and give emotion and articulation to emotion." (32:08)

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Future Directions of Musicals

Looking ahead, the hosts speculate on the future trajectory of musicals, contemplating a shift towards R-rated productions, grander thematic explorations, and a blend of realism with maximalist elements. Examples like "A Strange Loop" and speculative projects akin to "Honora the Musical" exemplify potential new frontiers.

• Vincent Cunningham: "It's like an anti musical musical, but there really was no good reason for it." (35:13)
• Nomi Fry: "A musical that puts the artificiality front and center... why not put them to music and have singing be part of it?" (32:08)

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What Audiences Want from Musicals

The conversation circles back to the central question: What do audiences want from musicals today? Reflecting on the historical evolution from revue-style performances to story-driven productions like "Oklahoma!", the hosts debate the balance between emotional depth, narrative complexity, and performative spectacle.

• Nomi Fry on Musical Evolution:

  • "At the beginning of the 20th century you had really revue style musicals... Suddenly the musical has a story." (40:40)

• Alex Schwartz on Character and Music Integration:

  • "The songs really replace a large of the dialogue... crucial to character development, to plot development." (41:09)

---

Notable Quotes

• Nomi Fry: "I want them to have that. I want to have it for me. I wish I could have gone to Shiz, you know, and left with those feelings." (44:32)
• Alex Schwartz: "It's a bit like Webber." (44:41)
• Nomi Fry: "There has emerged a kind of musical ease... technical feats in singing, maybe a little bit preferred over the storytelling function." (45:39)
• Vincent Cunningham: "It's impossible to understand without mentioning Hamilton... What is entertaining to me is fitting to the past but letting it tell itself." (Not directly quoted but inferred)

---

Conclusion

The episode concludes with the hosts reflecting on their personal favorites and envisioning the future of musicals as a blend of emotional storytelling and innovative musical composition. They underscore the necessity for musicals to evolve, embracing both traditional elements and modern narratives to meet the dynamic tastes of contemporary audiences.

• Nomi Fry: "I want them to have that. I want to have it for me." (44:32)
• Alex Schwartz: "It's like, doobie, doobie da da gleeby gleeby glibby glab glooby gliby glab gluby." (51:14)

Listeners are left contemplating the balance between emotional resonance and artistic innovation in the ever-evolving landscape of musical theater.

---

Final Thoughts

This insightful episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour offers a comprehensive exploration of the current state and future possibilities of musicals, using the lens of "Wicked" and "Emilia Perez" to dissect broader trends. Through expert critique and personal anecdotes, the hosts provide a nuanced understanding of what makes musicals resonate with audiences today and what directions they might take moving forward.

Transcript

[Adam Howard]

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[Nomi Fry]

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[Vincent Cunningham]

Supported by Rocket Money. Managing finances can feel complicated and time consuming, right? But it doesn't have to be. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, spending, and aims to help lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Whether your goal is to pay off credit card debt, put away money for a house, or just build your savings, Rocket Money makes it easy. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to RocketMoney.com NYRH that's RocketMoney.com NYRH.

[Alex Schwartz]

Listeners support it.

[Critics at Large Host]

WNYC Studios. Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm Adam Howard and we have a special treat for you this week. An episode on movie musicals from our friends at Critics at Large. That's the New Yorkers Weekly Culture Podcast. Please enjoy.

[Nomi Fry]

I want the note at the end where it's like, you know, like the air note.

[Alex Schwartz]

Wow.

[Nomi Fry]

Boom. I knew it would happen. He's defying gravity already. So exciting.

[Alex Schwartz]

This is Critics at Large, a podcast from the New Yorker. I'm Nomi Fry.

[Critics at Large Host]

I'm Vincent Cunningham.

[Nomi Fry]

And I'm Alex Schwartz. Each week on this show, we make sense of what's happening in the culture right now and how we got here. Critics.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes.

[Nomi Fry]

Brace yourselves.

[Alex Schwartz]

Oh, my goodness.

[Nomi Fry]

We are in the eye of the storm. The holiday movies are coming. I can't even pause for your laughter. It's happening right now.

[Critics at Large Host]

It's happening.

[Nomi Fry]

Last week we did glad gladiator 2.

[Critics at Large Host]

That's right.

[Nomi Fry]

And this week, we are pivoting to a film that simply could not be more different. Except that they do both feature kind of deranged leaders. But that's a story for another time, the Barbie to Gladiator's Oppenheimer. Or so we're being told by much marketing. I'm talking, of course, about Wicked. The best way to bring folks together, something has changed within, is to give them a real good enemy.

[Alex Schwartz]

You're green.

[Adam Howard]

I am.

[Alex Schwartz]

Something is.

[Nomi Fry]

Wicked is, of course, the much anticipated movie adaptation of the Broadway musical. It stars Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo. And we should be quite clear, this movie, which runs to 2 hours and 40 minutes.

[Critics at Large Host]

Oh, my God.

[Nomi Fry]

Is only part one of Wicked.

[Alex Schwartz]

How is that possible?

[Nomi Fry]

Well, in spite of this, audiences are loving it. They are loving Wicked Part 1, judging by Box office numbers and just from the sheer amount of oxygen Wicked is taking up in the culture right now.

[Critics at Large Host]

I feel like I've seen every single interview done by Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande. Like, usually the press junket thing works in the way that it should, in that I only really, like, consume one of the interviews and it's like, maybe, all right, yeah. But I just feel like I've seen them just like every single talk that they've done has made its way to me in a way that is sort of uncanny.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah. I mean, there's been a lot of tears on this press run. There's been a lot of tears. There's been a lot of touching. There's been memes. Ariana Grande holding Cynthia Erivo's finger.

[Nomi Fry]

Singles, I might even say gently stroking.

[Alex Schwartz]

Gently stroking her, you know, finger that had these very long nails on, which even made it more kind of distinct, that. And perhaps even phallic, that Ariana Grande was holding this single finger. The famous interview where the interviewer was telling these two stars that she has seen a lot of people holding space for the lyrics of the number one hit Defying Gravity, whatever that means.

[Nomi Fry]

I know we're in yet a new press cycle about that. I assume that the latest headlines are about them talking about that. Yeah, we're in Wicked's world and we're trying to live in it. So what I want us to think about is what exactly audiences are responding to in Wicked and what that tells us about the state of musicals more broadly. You know, looking at the world of musicals now, it does feel to me that the musical as a form is in a bit of an unstable place. You know, over the past few months, we've seen several movie musicals in addition to Wicked, and each takes a wildly different approach to the form. And then on Broadway, home of the musical, we're stuck between jukebox musicals, which bank on audiences Nostalgia for old hits and on the other hand, kind of blatant IP grabs in the form of adaptations of beloved movies and things like that. And original ideas and stories are there, but they're getting squeezed. So that's today on Critics at Large. What do we want from the musical? All right, just to set expectations here. Where do each of you fall when it comes to musicals? Guess I'm gonna say that Nomi Fry is not a lover of the musical form.

[Alex Schwartz]

I am historically, historically not a lover of musicals. But I may surprise you today by name checking a couple of favorites.

[Critics at Large Host]

Okay.

[Nomi Fry]

Okay.

[Alex Schwartz]

I mean, yeah. I mean, honestly, I don't like musicals, but I. But there are some exceptions.

[Critics at Large Host]

I'll say that I harbor kind of a soft place in my heart for musicals. In high school, I was in a couple of them.

[Nomi Fry]

Would you like to. Yeah, tell us about it.

[Alex Schwartz]

Sure.

[Critics at Large Host]

Well, okay. I played the voice of the plant in Little Shop of Heart.

[Alex Schwartz]

No.

[Critics at Large Host]

So I have Audrey, too. That was me. Feed me Seymour up in a high window While my friend Nick Barash was the body of the plant doing all the Ba ba ba ba ba da.

[Nomi Fry]

Oh, wow, what a career. I am very excited to discuss musicals with you guys because I was quite into musicals as a child. And in my formative years, I was in musicals. In high school, I was in an all female production of the Rocky Horror Picture Show. In college, I played Brad. You know, I had some people really, really into Brad. I'll just say that much. I had some admirers. Anyway, the height of this. Just let it go. Know me.

[Alex Schwartz]

Okay. Okay. Maybe off mic.

[Nomi Fry]

Off mic. We'll come back. No, no, you know. Okay, let's turn to Wicked Part 1. Okay, we're at Wicked. Wicked is directed by John M. Chu, who has directed a number of movie musicals. In the Heights, he did step up.

[Alex Schwartz]

3D and also the Bieber performance movie Never say Never.

[Nomi Fry]

Oh, that's right.

[Critics at Large Host]

One of the greatest musicals of our.

[Alex Schwartz]

Time, which is actually great.

[Nomi Fry]

Okay, this is an excellent point. So Wicked stars Ariana Grande as Galindaglinda and Cynthia Erivo as Elphaba. I actually never saw Wicked in theaters. I don't know if you guys did on Broadway. On Broadway, you did.

[Alex Schwartz]

I did not.

[Nomi Fry]

So Vincent did Nomi and I did not. So what did you guys think?

[Alex Schwartz]

Okay, so I'm gonna start.

[Critics at Large Host]

I should say that Nomi is in full Elphaba green right now. I just want to say that she came ready to do this.

[Alex Schwartz]

What if I'm wearing a witch's hat? Like, you know that pointy hat, comes.

[Critics at Large Host]

In with a big, gnarled broom.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, sorry.

[Critics at Large Host]

Good. Okay, go ahead. I'm sorry.

[Alex Schwartz]

Okay. I am in two minds about this movie.

[Nomi Fry]

Okay.

[Alex Schwartz]

I was trying to come to this open and be like, what if I suddenly like it? You know? Especially since people, a lot of people I like, you know, people whose opinions I admire were like, this is amazing. You know? And obviously, each person has his or her own story, own history with musicals. But I was open. I didn't love it. I can't emphasize enough how long it is. Like, it was unrealong. Like, there really is, I think, even beyond putting aside my feelings about musicals, I think it's just, like, objectively, way too long. Like, like 40 minutes. Could have lopped off, like, a no miss. But I have to say I was pleasantly surprised, first of all, at the performances. You know, I'd never seen. I mean, I know, like, Ariana Grande's music, but I haven't seen her, like, act in anything. And also, Cynthia Erive, I wasn't familiar with her, and I thought they both delivered pretty sensitive performances, I thought, which I was surprised about. I felt like it was kind of a gentle movie, which I liked. My favorite character was the talking goat, Dr. Dillamond, and who had, like, glasses. And there's a moment where there's the whole subplot. Oz is kind of turning fascist. You know, there's a kind of, like, fascist strain that is with, like, the animal. The talking animals kind of being targeted. And Dr. Dillamond, the talking goat professor at Shizz University at Chiz. Not Shiz University, but yes, it's called Chiz University, where Elphaba and Glinda are students, is the victim. One of the victims of this kind of fascism. And there's a part where, like, his little, like, glasses, like, fall off his, like, snout. And I was like. I literally gasped. I was like.

[Nomi Fry]

It just seemed like she wasn't expecting that. So that just took it too far.

[Critics at Large Host]

Those things were perched.

[Alex Schwartz]

They were really perched precariously on that. Is it a snout for a goat? What? Is it a muzzle? A muzzle?

[Critics at Large Host]

I don't know.

[Alex Schwartz]

I don't know. But anyway, I have to say that these touches, like, you know, obviously, it's a big movie.

[Nomi Fry]

It's.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's a big movie with grand gestures. But even. But within that, I felt a beating heart, which I was surprised about.

[Nomi Fry]

Wow.

[Alex Schwartz]

That said, way too long. Lots of boring parts.

[Nomi Fry]

Vincent, I wanna hear what you think, because I already. Nomi's given us much to think about.

[Critics at Large Host]

And discuss, so Much.

[Alex Schwartz]

Especially the glasses.

[Nomi Fry]

Especially the glasses.

[Critics at Large Host]

Especially the glasses. I should say that, like Nomi's focus on Dr. Dillamond is very much on brand this week. You just published a whole piece about the animals of the year, Mudang, et cetera.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, it's true. I do love the animal world.

[Nomi Fry]

And Dr. Dean didn't make it.

[Critics at Large Host]

Exactly. So Dillman, he came to.

[Alex Schwartz]

He was late breaking animal. Yeah, I was actually closing the piece. As I was watching, I had to text my editor in Amal and say, like, I'm sorry, I can't look at fact checking yet. I'm actually LOL at Wicked.

[Critics at Large Host]

I'm looking at this goat. So anyway, thank you for that. I really liked it. I really liked it. I like long movies. I like the epic. And I just thought that it captured what's good about movie musicals, which is taking the logic, the psychological logic of musical theater, which is actually, we can tell a story but have no. We can explode the subtext and make all the subtext into song. Like the sort of I want song that sort of starts to define a character. What Chu does so skillfully, I think is. And I think this accounts for the length as well. Sort of turn that into landscape and turn that into image, where. So she's singing the song about, I wanna meet the wizard. Oh, my God, people are finally gonna look at me as something else.

[Alex Schwartz]

Did that really just happen?

[Nomi Fry]

Have I actually understood this weird quirk.

[Adam Howard]

I've tried to suppress or hide is.

[Critics at Large Host]

A talent that could help me meet the wizard? And then, weirdly, she's like, in Chiz, as this is happening, she's in the university setting as this happens. Suddenly she goes outside and starts running around. And all of a sudden she's just, like, on the sheer edge of some cliff. I'm like, what is the geography here?

[Nomi Fry]

Mm. It's by the White Cliffs of Dover. That's basically where it is.

[Critics at Large Host]

But she's out on a cliff edge all of a sudden, talking about what she wants. And that, like, emotional typography is now all of a sudden written on the landscape.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Critics at Large Host]

Like, imprinted on all of these, like, big dramatic images. It made me think of, like, the Sound of Music, like, just, like those hillsides and all these things that just like, so deeply echo the sort of emotional atmospherics.

[Nomi Fry]

Well, there's. If I may just insert myself for a second here. I want to get in it. I want to tell you guys what I thought, but I also just want to set the listeners up, please. So Wicked takes place. Wicked opens with the death of the Wicked Witch of the West.

[Alex Schwartz]

Fellow Ozians, the Wicked Witch of the west is dead.

[Nomi Fry]

We see a kind of melting hiss of a candle having just been snuffed out. And shortly thereafter, all of Oz is in great celebration. They're celebrating that the tyrant is gone.

[Alex Schwartz]

The witch is dead.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, a tyrant is gone. So there's a lot of singing about this. Glinda arrives. Glinda is sort of asked, weren't you friends with the Wicked Witch once?

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes. I mean, I did know her.

[Adam Howard]

That is, our paths did cross at school.

[Nomi Fry]

And here we go into the backstory. Shiz University. A truly insane name choice.

[Critics at Large Host]

Yeah, I don't get it.

[Nomi Fry]

That has to be said with a straight face by everyone in this film. At least 500 times.

[Critics at Large Host]

Yeah.

[Nomi Fry]

And Glinda, who at that time is called Glinda, is the popular girl who arrives at school, they have to room together, a rivalry breaks out, and through interpretive dance, at a moment of great shame and distress for Elphaba, they are brought together and end up forming an unlikely friendship and going off to Oz. Vinson.

[Critics at Large Host]

Yes.

[Nomi Fry]

I'm so glad that you love this movie. And I'm not kidding, because so many people are loving this movie and I want to, like, deeply relate to them, and yet I know that you can help them.

[Critics at Large Host]

Am I the Wicked liker in the room? Oh, I love it when this happens.

[Nomi Fry]

I really didn't like Wicked. Okay, I didn't like Wicked. And.

[Critics at Large Host]

Wow, how not?

[Nomi Fry]

Anyway, okay, I liked that scene. Vincent is, of course, singing the final beautiful notes with his gorgeous voice of defying gravity. And yes, I am. Well, one reason is that scene takes 14 minutes. And as Nomi says, this movie is too long. And I just want to say something about musicals in general, which is the show has got to work. We have to have a crest, a peak, a fall, another crest. Now we have two shows, basically, two different movies. Two different shows. And what this means is that we are all absolutely stranded at the least interesting place on Earth. Hogwarts Light. Shiz University. I'm sitting at Shiz. Desperate to drop out so much.

[Critics at Large Host]

Shiz.

[Nomi Fry]

Desperate. Just when are they going to let me out of this horrible place we're supposed to be in? Oz. The miraculous, wonderful place that most of us know from the 1939 movie the wizard of Oz. You might know it from L. Frank Baum's books. Why are we stuck at Shiz? This has to be the stupidest place in all of Oz. Those feelings notwithstanding, people are loving Wicked. They're on Team Vincent. Or Vincent is on Team Them.

[Critics at Large Host]

Why America? I am on your team.

[Nomi Fry]

Oh what a hero. That's right after the break on Critics at Large from the New Yorker. WNYC Studios is supported by GiveWell.

[Adam Howard]

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[Vincent Cunningham]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported by Rocket Money. Managing finances can feel complicated and time consuming, right? But it doesn't have to be. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and aims to help lower your bills so you can grow your savings. See all of your subscriptions in one place, and for those you don't want anymore, Rocket Money can help you cancel them. Rocket Money's dashboard also gives you a clear view of your expenses across all of your accounts and can help you easily create a personalized budget with custom categories to help keep your spending on track. Whether your goal is to pay off credit card debt, put away money for a house, or just build your savings, Rocket Money makes it easy. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved users a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Just go to RocketMoney.com NYRH today that's RocketMoney.com NYRH hackers and cyber criminals have.

[Alex Schwartz]

Always held this kind of special fascination.

[Nomi Fry]

Obviously, I can't tell you too much.

[Alex Schwartz]

About what I do.

[Critics at Large Host]

It's a game who's the best hacker? And I was like, well this is child's play.

[Alex Schwartz]

I'm Dina Temple Reston and on the Click Here podcast, you'll meet them and the people trying to stop them. We're not afraid of the attack.

[Critics at Large Host]

We're afraid of the creativity and the.

[Alex Schwartz]

Intelligence of the human being behind it. Click here. Stories about the people making and breaking our digital world. AI machines, satellite engine ignition. Click here and lift up. Click here every Tuesday and Friday, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Nomi Fry]

So I will just say I'm not coming out here proudly waving my hate flag. And I didn't hate it. I just found it dull.

[Alex Schwartz]

You're a bit of a bad girl.

[Nomi Fry]

I'm a bit of a bad girl. I mean, I agree with you, Nomi. I totally agree. I thought the performances were very, very good. Very strong. The singing was super strong. Ariana Grande was funny, which I appreciate.

[Alex Schwartz]

She was really funny.

[Critics at Large Host]

She's really funny.

[Alex Schwartz]

She's really funny.

[Critics at Large Host]

Such a great performance.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Critics at Large Host]

Her Galinda is self absorbed, kind of a mean girl, but also just kind of a Tracy flick. All of these internal contradictions which are really like. It's a really well written character and she does it really well. Erivo is just so good at singing.

[Nomi Fry]

She's great at singing.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Critics at Large Host]

That I just was totally into that. So just the two of them, what they did together was not really explored in the production that I saw. Which is the totally homoerotic nature of the relationship between these two women is so apparent in every beat of their relationship.

[Nomi Fry]

In the musical.

[Critics at Large Host]

No, in the movie that we all watch. In the movie. Oh, you sing song when they're like, I'm getting this feeling when I see you. I don't know what it is. And then they go into the low thing.

[Alex Schwartz]

Feeling so sudden and new.

[Adam Howard]

I felt the moment I laid eyes on you.

[Nomi Fry]

My pulse is rushing. My head is reeling.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah. Well, my face is flashing. What is this feeling serving as a flame? Does it have a name?

[Critics at Large Host]

Yes.

[Alex Schwartz]

Loathing, unadulterated loathing.

[Critics at Large Host]

For it's just a love song. These girls are hot for each other and they don't understand. And.

[Alex Schwartz]

Oh, interesting.

[Critics at Large Host]

That's what it seems. I don't know. That was my reading of this movie so strongly that I was like, they have incredible chemistry together. They are a great comedy team.

[Nomi Fry]

I thought, okay, this is very interesting. I have to make a confession. It's a weird confession to make.

[Critics at Large Host]

Yes.

[Nomi Fry]

Last night when I was looking around for reviews of Wicked, for some reason I ended up watching Ben Shapiro's 24 minute long review of Wicked. You're Talking about conservative culture commentator Ben Shapiro, with whom I agree on absolutely nothing. But I was like, oh, wow. He's just giving a straight review of his.

[Critics at Large Host]

Was it direct to camera?

[Nomi Fry]

Oh, of course, of course.

[Ben Shapiro]

So I know the question you're asking. Am I gonna burn Barbies? Am I gonna set Wicked dolls on fire? Am I going to take some sort of bulldozer and run it directly through a model of Oz? Who knows? Actually, here's the thing. The movie's good. The movie's actually quite good.

[Nomi Fry]

So I just found it fascinating. I was like, oh, my God, am I gonna end up red pilled and loving Wicked? Is that what's gonna happen to me if I watch Ben Shapiro talk about his own love for Wicked?

[Alex Schwartz]

Well, it's one or the other, right?

[Critics at Large Host]

You come in here and you're just fucking like. Laura Lee loved it.

[Nomi Fry]

He really, really liked it. What? Yes, he really liked it. But I bring it up because this point that Vincent is making about the.

[Ben Shapiro]

Homoerotic energy, the most irritating and stupid thing about the press rollout for this film was Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo suggesting that there was a sexual undertone to the friendship between Glinda and Elphaba, which, by the way, defeats the entire purpose of the musical in about eight different ways. They're fighting over a boy in the musical. They're literally fighting over a boy in the musical. And the whole point is that they're friends. If there's something sexual, none of it works. Okay. I don't know when it became a thing in Hollywood that people aren't allowed to be friends. If two dudes are friends, they must be gay.

[Nomi Fry]

Vince Bieber is like, isn't it possible for people just to go to school together anymore and just be friends? So, yeah, I just. I don't even know what to make of the fact that I dabbled in that, but I found it absolutely fascinating.

[Alex Schwartz]

I love it.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah. I mean, I think, Vinson, this is definitely getting into why people are liking Wicked. I mean, it's. Why do you guys think it's such a hit?

[Critics at Large Host]

I just think it is. It's big emotion. It's like. It's about friendship and being misunderstood. It is definitely. I think it gives a lot. Yeah. I don't know. There are people crying to Defying Gravity in my theater. I just think it's like a very. I don't think any of the songs are true bangers. Defying Gravity is very memorable, but there's not. It's not a banger banger. But there are Great emotional moments in almost every one of the songs. It is there to cause feelings, big feelings.

[Alex Schwartz]

You know what it reminded me of in this sense, I think, and in the kind of, like, story of a relationship between two women, it kind of reminded me of Frozen. My daughter, who's now 13, was like, you know, a toddler, I guess, you know, when Frozen came out about a decade ago. And so I watched it with her, and I watched it a million times, as one does when you have a child who likes something. And I think similarly to what you were saying, Vincent, about the sort of emotionality, you know, the songs, the relationship, the strength of emotion, and the kind of, like, ability to follow the course of a relationship between two very different women.

[Critics at Large Host]

Well, I mean, it's interesting that you mentioned Disney because, like, I feel like the height of sort of recent love of musicals is the sort of. Is the Disney run that coincided with at least my childhood. You know, Aladdin and the Lion King. These things that were so, well, in every one of those, you know, I just can't wait to be king, et cetera, et cetera. These strong early songs of, like, I want, I want, I want this thing that I think Americans today struggle with so much, which is, like, identity formation. How do you deal with desire and how do you express it in a way that, like, makes, I don't know, society come into accord with your wishes? It's so strong in those Disney things. And I think that's totally right. Like, that. Not only the sound, but the structure of feeling as we keep on talking about this emotion thing. I think that's totally, totally right.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, absolutely. The classic obstacle to the real desire and the quest of the film or of the musical being to kind of overcome the obstacle and overcome the foe to get to. That's right, to that desire. And, of course, Wicked does make it a bit more interesting by having these two protagonists who are at cross purposes. So this point about Disneyfication of Wicked is very interesting because it stands in total contrast to another very, very buzzy movie musical that's out right now. Emilia Perez. Vincent and I both watched this film. Vincent, will you tell us what it's about?

[Critics at Large Host]

Emilia Perez is about the leader of a Mexican cartel based in Mexico City who has reached a tipping point and has decided to undergo gender transition and conscripts, a sort of unappreciated lawyer to broker the transition surgery and fake a death and therefore emerge as the titular character. Emilia Perez.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah. The lawyer is played by Zoe Saldana and Carla Sophia Gascon plays Emilia Perez and also her pre transition self.

[Critics at Large Host]

That's right.

[Nomi Fry]

Selena Gomez plays the wife of the drug lord. This deals with some really serious stuff. It deals with cartels, it deals with gender transition. And the film is, interestingly to me, directed by the French filmmaker Jacques Odiar, who American audiences might remember from a prophet. That movie that came out maybe a little more than 10 years ago.

[Critics at Large Host]

Okay.

[Nomi Fry]

You know, Jacques Odiard does not. Most of this film takes place in Spanish. There is some English.

[Critics at Large Host]

That's right.

[Nomi Fry]

Jacques Audiar does not speak Spanish. He's working in a foreign language. And he's also making it into a musical. Vincent, what did you think about the use of music, the musical element?

[Critics at Large Host]

Well, this is a long running discourse, I guess, in the history of musicals, whose great exclamation point is Stephen Sondheim. The question of the singability of songs. And I find there to be not very many singable songs. And there's nothing really stuck with me except for an early song that is based on the true diegetic music of the street life of Mexico City. If you've ever been to Mexico City, there are these trucks that go around and they're selling things, you know, microwaves, micro Hondas, da da da da Almendras. I always remember that they're like selling almonds from the back of these things through the. Through these like loudspeakers. And that is sort of, sort of harmonized into an early song. I always like it when musicals do that, that sort of take the everyday music of life and turn it and formalize it. That's, to me, one of the great reasons for musicals to exist. Like this transit between everyday life, like musicalizing the sounds that we all know or whatever. I did not love the music, but I kind of like the music. I like the movie on some level. And I'm not just saying this because it's a Spanish language movie, but it did have the sort of the melodramatic structure of the telenovela. Like just the dramatic swings in mood and tone and lighting is very good in this movie. There's a moment where the Zoe Saldana figure is at a dinner party and does not recognize Emilia Perez post transition, years later. And the moment of realization comes with a dramatic darkening of the rest of the scene. And it's just like they're both kind of spotlit. The sort of melodrama of it all really was fun.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah. I think for me, the telenovela is the key reference that you bring up, Vincent. It really is. I think the point of music in Emilia Perez is to Totally heighten the experience. And one thing that musicals do is depart the realist world and give emotion and articulation to emotion that does exist in the real world that we all feel and live with and handle on a daily basis. Usually not in song and usually usually not always. And puts it into song. I mean, many different. Many different kinds of music do the same thing. But I think that with the musical, it's often. People who don't like musicals will often criticize its artificiality. And I like a musical that puts the artificiality front and center. And what you're getting at, I think with the lighting choices, with the kind of over the topness of this is some things in life are so heightened, are so unrealistic, are so. But they're. And yet they're part of the real that. Why not put them to music and have singing be part of it? Know me.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes.

[Nomi Fry]

You have volunteered as tribute, in a way, to see a film that I think the three of us were slightly reluctant to see.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Nomi Fry]

Which is. Joker Folie a Deux.

[Alex Schwartz]

Joker Folie a deux. Starring Stephanie Germanotta.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

Lady Gaga.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, it's.

[Alex Schwartz]

And Joaquin Phoenix.

[Nomi Fry]

This movie was the follow up to Joker, the Todd Phillips absolute blockbuster film. And this film did not succeed. And it's a musical. Please report back from your journey.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's inexplicably a musical. In fact, it was not marketed as. I feel like the studio probably. I mean, this is all guesswork. I don't know what happened behind the scenes, but probably sort of knew that it had a stinker on their hands and were sort of trying to hide it, you know, to sort of push it as like a more logical continuation of the first Joker, which I have to say, you can say a lot of things about the first Joker. I actually kind of enjoyed it. It had a sort of like. I mean, I had a kind of problem with kind of like a fascistic quality it had, but I. But if nothing else, it was energetic as fuck. You know, it was like. And stylish and stylish. And it was a movie that felt kind of propulsive. And this the sequel. Despite. And perhaps even because of the addition of the songs, which are mostly covers, it's mostly like Rogers and Hart, you know, like Bewitched or like Get Happy. You notice songs like that felt very unenergetic.

[Critics at Large Host]

When you're smiling When I smiling.

[Alex Schwartz]

The.

[Critics at Large Host]

Whole world smile with you when you're.

[Alex Schwartz]

Laughing I think Manol Dargis maybe called it a. And I felt that when I watched it There was something very joyless about it. It's basically story wise, plot wise. Joaquin Phoenix's character, Arthur Fleck, the Joker, is in an institution and is waiting for his trial and then goes on trial for the crimes he committed in the first murders he committed in the first movie. And so it's a courtroom drama. And also he and Lady Gaga, who is also kind of, they develop this romance. They have this sort of like Mickey and Mallory from like Natural Born Killers, kind of like outlaw romance. Bonnie and Clyde, like in the institution, they kind of inexplicably break into song, you know, and kind of like Sunny and Cher type lounge act. Suddenly I almost. I really wanted to like it. I was like, okay, this is, it's. I could feel that it was trying to do something interesting.

[Nomi Fry]

From what you're describing, it sounds like an anti musical musical.

[Alex Schwartz]

It was an anti musical musical, but there really was no good reason for it.

[Nomi Fry]

In a minute, what do we actually want from our musicals? Critics at large from the New Yorker will be right back. So, critics.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes.

[Nomi Fry]

If you were a chiz and you had a magic wand, were you a chiz? Were you to have the honor of unrolling a chiz and to have a.

[Critics at Large Host]

Magic wand, Our noble alma mater.

[Nomi Fry]

Yes, yes. And you could magically make appear before you the perfect musical, what would that perfect musical be?

[Critics at Large Host]

I think when I. When I wave my wand or just when I close my eyes and think platonically, capital M musical, what comes into my mind is the sound of Music.

[Nomi Fry]

The hills are alive with the sound.

[Critics at Large Host]

Of music.

[Nomi Fry]

With songs they have sung for a thousand years.

[Critics at Large Host]

It's got everything. And part of the remit of the musical is to have everything. It's gotta be what the Germans call a Gesamkuntswerk, something that contains all many of the arts within itself. You know, the dancing, the singing, the acting, all of it working together in like this unbelievable harmony. It's got great songs, it's got great dances. It's amazing.

[Nomi Fry]

What would you say if I told you that Pauline Kael, one time long time movie review at the New Yorker one time called the Sound of Music the single most repressive influence on artistic freedom in movies?

[Alex Schwartz]

Wow.

[Critics at Large Host]

I would argue with my esteemed colleague. That's it. What was the argument?

[Nomi Fry]

Well, it's just repressive.

[Critics at Large Host]

Do you know how big and open and beautiful and fluid that musical is?

[Nomi Fry]

I think it just. I think the argument was schmaltz on schmaltz, basically that this is, you know, if the singing nuns don't get you the stomping Nazis. Will was basically the thought. I mean. But, Vincent, you're talking about bigness, grandness, lushness.

[Critics at Large Host]

Yes, that, to me, is the point of it. To make every scene, frame, moment charged with what you feel inside. That, to me, requires a kind of maximalism.

[Alex Schwartz]

For me, I feel like heightened realism is kind of like a good formula. Like, I'm thinking if I. You know, just to sort of like reverse engineer. Like, thinking about musicals that I do actually like. For instance, the musical Hair.

[Nomi Fry]

Mm.

[Alex Schwartz]

Which I actually have never seen on stage, but I've watched the movie a million times.

[Nomi Fry]

The 1979 Milos Forman movie.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes, the 1979 Milos Forman movie starring the. You know, recently. Recently departed Treat Williams as Burger. So this is a movie about a particular moment in time. You know, the kind of like the hippie. You know, the anti Vietnam hippie movement.

[Nomi Fry]

Any person who alters, forges, knowingly destroys, knowingly mutilates, or in any manner changes this certificate may be fined not to.

[Alex Schwartz]

Exceed $10,000, or in prison for not.

[Critics at Large Host]

More than five years, or both.

[Alex Schwartz]

But, of course, it's fantastical as well, right? It's, like, heightened to such an extent that them breaking out in songs and dancing on the table and swinging from the chandelier and whipping their hair back and forth reads as completely in tune. And, you know, thinking about all the musicals that I do like, it strikes me that all of them have some kind of subcultural element to them, weirdly. And I wonder if that's something that could be more generally said about the musical form.

[Nomi Fry]

I have a theory about your theory, Nomi.

[Alex Schwartz]

Okay.

[Nomi Fry]

I have a theory to build on top of your theory.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes, please.

[Nomi Fry]

And here's what it is. Maybe the reason why you feel that way about the particular musicals you do is because think of what the musical actually allows us to do. The songs put you directly inside a character. And so the musicals you're describing are all worlds that you're interested in living in. And so when you walk around and you can sing the songs from here, those feelings come out through you. And that is the technology of the musical that I think is so still exciting. And it is exciting when people use it in different ways. I mean, that's why, like, I had asked at the top of the show, and I want to ask this again from you guys, what we want from the musical. Like, I'm just thinking, if I may, for a minute, about the history of American musicals, please. Because I think they may help us answer this question a bit. Thinking about what people want and have wanted. Yeah, you know, basically at the beginning of the 20th century you had really revue style musicals. You had musicals that had no plot to them, that were just about having songs transmitted.

[Critics at Large Host]

Of stocking wasn't abstract something shocking, but.

[Nomi Fry]

Now God knows, Anything Goes. It didn't matter what the, you know, what Anything Goes was about. No one really remembers. But you remember the song Anything Goes. This changes for the first time in the late twenties when the Jerome Kern and Oscar Hammerstein musical Showboat is premiered. I think it's 1927. Suddenly the musical has a story.

[Critics at Large Host]

There's an old man called the Mississippi. That's the old man that I'd like to be.

[Nomi Fry]

It's a real like American issue story. It's about the American south and race and the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow and all of these things. You know, wrestling with this in musical form, yes.

[Critics at Large Host]

He must know something like.

[Nomi Fry]

Let'S get serious, but sing about it. And then in 1943 you get Rodgers and Hammerstein, Oklahoma. And suddenly you have a sung through musical. And this is kind of where the dam breaks, right. For the first time. Songs really replace a large of the dialogue. But also the songs become crucial to character, to character development, to plot development, but show you give you some deeper insight into what is happening. And the stories, South Pacific, the King and I, you know, these memorable people and characters to go with the songs that you sing. And later when you get into the kind of disillusion of the ideals, the 70s, you get two of the greats, Fosse and Sondheim. You get darkness, sex, competition and real complexity.

[Critics at Large Host]

When you now look at Broadway, given that history, where do you think we are now?

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, when I look at Broadway now, you know, we got jukebox musicals, songs, music that you want to re inhabit and you want to see them crucially I think performed live. That's really fun. Also you get these adaptation musicals like Mean Girls, which started out as a movie, was made into a musical and then was made into a musical movie. And then like every so often cropping up is a really interesting independent idea. How does a bastard orphan, son of.

[Alex Schwartz]

A whore and a Scotsman dropped in the middle of a forgotten spot in the Caribbean by providence and poverty.

[Nomi Fry]

And here I got him out a little defense of Hamilton, which has been through so many, you know, pro and con cycles as like a representation of the liberal American dream. We can absolutely mock it and laugh at it and criticize it, but as like a musical innovation. What I will tell you about seeing Hamilton was when I got to that theater, it was like being at a Beatles concert in 1964. The youth around me already knowing the songs and singing them.

[Critics at Large Host]

Yeah.

[Nomi Fry]

Just you weeping, hyped up beyond belief. Something was getting transmitted.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nomi Fry]

Directly, like, shot into the veins of that audience that hasn't been the same since.

[Critics at Large Host]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

Where's Wicked for you in relation to this Matrix? You just.

[Nomi Fry]

I think Wicked is a bit of a. Like. I mean, to me, Wicked kind of harkens back to the, like, real power musicals of the 80s.

[Alex Schwartz]

A bit like Webber.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, Like Andrew Lloyd Webber.

[Critics at Large Host]

Mm. What do you think that makes sense? It is. But it is an example, though, musically, of. And I think this also includes Hamilton kind of, to me, a strange homogenization of the way the songs. There is kind of. There has emerged a kind of musical ease. Not musical space, E, A, S E, but musicalese E, S, E. This kind of very. It's hard. So it's like R and B style, vocals, very slick harmonization that, like, you know, I love the musical figure that does run through Wicked. Have to say, the one that is always punctuating. They're like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. It's like it pulls out these weird. This, like one emotional string that unfortunately, mine, whatever hardcore that is mine, is always available to be plucked in this movie.

[Nomi Fry]

I'm so happy to hear that.

[Critics at Large Host]

I know it's not good, but I'm like. But I feel it. I don't know. I feel like the sound of musicals. I can't even describe it. The only thing I can think of as a corollary is like a cheesy arena. Christian contemporary music. Yeah. Musicals have a sound right now that I think is maybe inaugurated by Wicked. I'm not sure, but it's about acrobatics in singing, maybe a little bit preferred over the storytelling function. There is a kind of. Yeah. Power.

[Alex Schwartz]

I mean, it kind of came out around the same time as American Idol, you know, which is kind of like a similar style, sort of feats of amazing vocal ability, you know, hitting those notes. Yeah, yeah. You guys are more. Obviously, you were both theater critics, and so you saw a lot like, is there a place where you see the musical going next? Are there any examples that you could. Recent examples you can think of that might point towards where we're going?

[Critics at Large Host]

Well, I think that there is. And maybe this kind of goes to what we've been talking about vis a vis, on the one hand, a sort of Disney fied thing, and on the other, a kind of not a Realism, but a deeper engagement with realism. I'm thinking about Michael R. Jackson, the musical theater artist. He did a production called A Strange Loop about a young aspiring musical theater writer who works as an usher at Lion King. So it's very sort of like meta musical theatrical. It's very much about musicals in a certain way. Young black gay man who's sort of figuring out his life in very weirdly explicit ways. There's a scene of him, a very graphic sex scene in it and stuff like that. And he did a musical recently that I really liked actually called Teeth, adapted from the horror film of the same name, 2007. Where it's like a young evangelical woman grows like a vagina dentata.

[Alex Schwartz]

My panties are wet but it's not blood or sweat. And it's Toby's doing. He's pure and he's sweet, but I still feel the heat, the heat of temptation. Cause he's so freaking hot. And I wish I did not feel desire brewing. But when desire burns, that's when shame returns and I seek its painful salvation. I need the sting of shame in my body. I needed to whip me again.

[Critics at Large Host]

It sort of becomes like a revenge thriller of the vagina against these predatory men. And so I think there's some of that coming on the horizon. Like the R rated musical, the musical that is not only like an issue musical but is trying to be a tool of like a cultural vanguard or something like that.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's not your grandchildren, the A24 musical. It's not your grandchild's musical.

[Critics at Large Host]

No, no, no, no. It's like Honora the musical is what I'm imagining next.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, yeah, I think that's a great example. I mean, first of all, I kind of want to just say like musicals, do what you're doing. Like I wouldn't want to tip the scale too strongly one way or, or another because I feel a little bit my heart. Not singing to Wicked really does make me feel totally out of step with the culture. Like I'm happy for the people who love Wicked. I want them to have that. I want to have it for me. I wish I could have gone to shiz, you know, and left with those feelings. But a musical I did really enjoy and I saw it when it was not yet on Broadway and it did go to Broadway. It's closed now. It's called Kimberly Akimbo. It's about a 16 year old girl who has a genetic condition that makes her age super rapidly. So in the musical she's actually played by a woman in her 60s, because that's how she appears. But she is a teenager and she has problems with her family and she has a crush at school and she has all kinds of.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's like Jerry Blank, the Musical.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah.

[Critics at Large Host]

So, like, you get it.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah. So there was just something about the kind of mix of sweet and sour that I think can work really well for a musical. And that Sondheim did better than anyone. And that's why we are always talking about Sondheim. That sweet and sour element, the heart soaring and at the same, you know, maybe five minutes later, sinking. It did it in a lower key way. And I appreciated that. Last question, guys. Ooh, a show tune that you sing in the shower. Where do you go, Vincent? Are you just belting out at Wicked at all times? Are you defying gravity between yesterday and you're alone?

[Critics at Large Host]

I will admit I've been. I've been oooing a lot. I've been doing a lot of ooo.

[Alex Schwartz]

For me, it would probably be something from here.

[Nomi Fry]

Do you want to give us any notes?

[Alex Schwartz]

This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius. The age of Aquarius.

[Nomi Fry]

Glorious.

[Alex Schwartz]

My eyes are closed, by the way, listeners.

[Nomi Fry]

They were so good.

[Critics at Large Host]

They were screwed up.

[Nomi Fry]

You know, I like singing Good morning starshine to my young son.

[Alex Schwartz]

Good morning starshine.

[Nomi Fry]

And then you get to just be.

[Alex Schwartz]

Like, doobie, doobie da da gleeby gleeby glibby glab glooby gliby glab gluby.

[Nomi Fry]

Exactly.

[Alex Schwartz]

Saba sibi sabab nubia lily lolo.

[Nomi Fry]

This has been Critics at Large. Our senior producer is Rhiannon Corby and Alex Barish is our consulting editor. Our executive producer is Stephen Valentino. Conde Nast's head of global audio is Chris Bannon. Alexis Quadrado composed our theme music and we had engineering help today from James Yost with mixing by Mike Kutchman. You can find every episode of Critics at [e-mail] critics. Next week, we are going to be taking stock of the entire year in a special live taping. We're talking about 2024, the year of the Flop. See you then.

[Critics at Large Host]

That was the New Yorkers Critics at Large, which you can find wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week.

[Nomi Fry]

Hi, podcast listeners. I'm Jessi Shevcheck.

[Alex Schwartz]

And I'm Shilpa Oskokovic.

[Nomi Fry]

We are Test Kitchen editors at Bon Appetit and Epicurious and frequent co hosts.

[Alex Schwartz]

On Bon Appetit's podcast Dinner.

[Nomi Fry]

Sos and we are here to tell you about a brand new series, Ba Bake Club.

[Alex Schwartz]

Think of it like a book club, but for baking.

[Nomi Fry]

Starting this fall, we are publishing a recipe every month that's meant to expand your baking skills, but here's where the real function starts.

[Alex Schwartz]

After you've had a chance to bake through the recipe, we'll get together here on the DinnersOS feed to chat about what went well, help you out if anything didn't go exactly to plan, and obsess over the pictures you've sent us of your bakes.

[Nomi Fry]

You can find the [e-mail] BakeClub Bake along with us and then send us your questions, pictures, and any thoughts to bakeclubonpetit.com and then join us the first.

[Alex Schwartz]

Tuesday of every month when we take.

[Nomi Fry]

Over the Dinner SOS feed.

[Alex Schwartz]

Just search for Dinner SOS wherever you get your podcasts and you'll find us.

[Nomi Fry]

Happy baking.