
James Taylor’s songs are so familiar that they seem to have always existed. Onstage at the New Yorker Festival, in 2010, Taylor peeled back some of his influences—the Beatles, Bach, show tunes, and Antônio Carlos Jobim—and played a few of his hits, even giving the staff writer Adam Gopnik a quick lesson.
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Adam Gopnik
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From one World Trade center in Manhattan, this is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of the New Yorker and WNYC Studios.
David Remnick
Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. If you're a James Taylor fan, what would you ask him? If you could ask him anything, the New Yorker's Adam Gopnik got his chance.
Adam Gopnik
James this evening runs the risk of being an episode in the Chris Farley Show. I don't know if you remember Chris Farley on Saturday Night Live when he would have people he admired on, he would just say, do you remember when you wrote Fire and Rain? And say, that was great. And I could go through everything you've done and simply stand here and sweat and say that was great. But I will try at least to find out why it's all been so great. Thinking about your music. One of the things that's always sort of stunned me about it is when you first appeared, you had a distinctive way of playing the guitar which wasn't like anybody else's distinctive kind of voicings. And you had an amazing harmonic language. You know, I always think when I go through your sheet music and see that wonderful song like Don't Let Me Be Lonely tonight starts with an E minor 9th chord and then goes to a major 7th chord. Those weren't the C, A minor, F, G progressions of pop music at the time. Did you study music? How was it that the language of music came to be the language you speak?
James Taylor
So naturally I studied cello when I was a kid. My parents thought it would be good for there were five of us. So I got the cello and I played for about four years, badly, reluctantly. I was a bad student and it Never gave me the kind of feedback that I needed to have it take off and. And have its own momentum, its own reason to continue. But all along, I noticed that the guitar was going to be it for me. And I finally prevailed on my folks. We lived in North Carolina. My mother would bring little groups of us up on the train to Manhattan to expose us to something other than trees, and we.
Adam Gopnik
Was it art or music or the shows that she took you to?
James Taylor
Museums and shows. Yeah, and the city itself. You know, my folks loved the Rogers and Hammerstein, Rogers and Hart, Cole Porter, My Fair lady in South Pacific and Oklahoma. And some light classics and some folk music, too. And of course, I loved Elvis and I loved the Beatles, and I loved Ray Charles. When I was exposed to those things, that's sort of the second tier of stuff I was exposed to. That amazed me, too. And it just opened my eyes, and I wanted to explore that music and I wanted to sing it, I wanted to play it. But I was 12 when I got a guitar here in Manhattan at Schirmer's.
Adam Gopnik
Really? In the.
James Taylor
The Schirmer Music Company.
Adam Gopnik
So you drove up with your mother to.
James Taylor
Well, we took the train up, and I think it was my mom and my dad on that trip. And we went to Schirmer's and found a guitar. I saw the Fender electrics, the shape, the amazing finish of them, the way they looked, the chrome, the mother of toilet seat, you know, but they wouldn't go for it. So it was a classic guitar. And I, you know, immediately I got. I'll show you what. The first thing I ever played on. It was simple, but it spoke to me. And it just immediately started making sounds that I wanted to hear more of. And the cello never did.
Adam Gopnik
You sold the cello at that point and pawned it on 46th Street.
James Taylor
I don't know what happened to that damn cello. It's gotta be around somewhere. I hope someone's playing it.
Adam Gopnik
And you started to compose just the way kids do, teenagers do on the guitar. You just chord to chord and idea to idea. What was the first song you ever wrote that you thought was a good song?
James Taylor
I wrote a song called when I was 13 or 14 called Roll River Roll, which is pretty awful. I can play it for you.
Adam Gopnik
Would you, please? Yes. I don't think this is ever here. James Taylor's first song. Has this been widely covered, James?
James Taylor
No, it hasn't been widely covered. And the fact that nobody here tonight has ever heard it is probably proof of how lame it was. You know, it was really.
Adam Gopnik
This is.
James Taylor
Something called Travis Picking that we all learned. Sort of a walking thumb and then the one or two fingers thrown in.
Kim Taylor
Roll, river, roll Long as you can be Longest river I've done seen Rolling.
James Taylor
To sea.
Adam Gopnik
Went like that and then. But, you know, the strange thing is, James, I never heard that. It sounds like a James Taylor song, you know. I mean.
James Taylor
Yeah, it does.
Adam Gopnik
You know, I mean, it. Not the Oompa part maybe so much at the beginning, but the way that the bass line goes down and goes to.
James Taylor
All of that ends on the minor.
Adam Gopnik
Ends on the minor. Exactly. Yeah. In that.
James Taylor
Yeah, it does. It had a certain.
Adam Gopnik
It hints at things you will write. If not everybody. I think everybody here knows that you went off to London eventually and you recorded that first record. How old were you when that. When you did that, James?
James Taylor
I guess I was 19 when I went to London and got my recording contract with Apple Records, with the Beatles. And that was such an amazing reversal of fortune for me. That was the door that opened and let me through to the life that I've lived ever since. It was my big break. I'd been at it since, you know, when I came to New York in 1966, and instead of graduating high school, I came here and I started with Danny Kortsmore, a band called the Flying Machine, which was. It was ill fated. And we had problems and, you know, typical problems, and never got our recording deal that we needed. We signed one, but the people who signed it just. They couldn't follow through with it. And after that, fell to pieces in 66, when I was 18, I went home to North Carolina to recover a little bit. I needed soup, I needed a bed. I needed my parents. I needed to go home. My dad actually heard me on the phone. I called him in North Carolina from. From New York. And the band had been broken up for about a month. And he could hear that I wasn't well. And he said, you just stay right there. He got my address. He said, you stay right there. I'll be there in 10 hours. And he was, that's wonderful. I just sat there for 10 hours and my dad showed up in a station wagon and took me home. That's one of my, you know, my treasures, that little. That memory, that thing he did. I wrote a song about it called Jump Up Behind Me.
Kim Taylor
This land is a lovely green it reminds me of. Of my own home Such children I've seldom seen Even in my own home the sky's so bright and clean well.
Adam Gopnik
Speaking of that, one of the things that was so potent about your music, when, as a very young man, people first started paying attention to it, was that it seemed to be so amazingly emotionally accessible. It seemed to sum up so many of the longings of a. Of a generation, so many people. Songs like Rainy Day man or Something's Wrong, and then more famously, in the next Go round, in the next group of songs, Fire and Rain and those things. Was it strange and difficult to have to see your own experience turning into songs and then becoming these kinds of universal vehicles for other people's feelings?
James Taylor
Very strange indeed. And, you know, I think that that's. Obviously, you want success, you want to be heard, you want to be listened to and. And encouraged, but it's always that moment of going from the private thing. And in the case of a singer songwriter who doesn't have a band who's sort of going there with him and sort of a posse or a crowd or a tribe that you're running with and doing it with, when you're doing it alone and by yourself, it is a very strange transition to make. And I wrote songs about that too. Hey, mister, that's Me up on the Jukebox or Fading Away or Company Man. Those are songs about the difficulty of starting off with a very private and personal thing. And as my friend David Crosby says, the first album you make is the result of 10 years of work. Then you've got a year to make the next one. But those first songs weren't written with an audience in mind, except in the most general sense. They really were personal, like diary entries or poems that you write for yourself. But then when you take this stuff to market and engage the music business and the popular culture and all that stuff, it can be. That's a very interesting thing to try to negotiate and to make, to go public with it and to make a living. I'm sure that writing has a similar. There's a similar thing to it when you take your work to market.
Adam Gopnik
But it had to be, you were saying it had to be peculiar because, yes, of course, it's true for everyone. But a writer may be six people read it. When a musician genuinely develops a following, it's millions of people who see your music as their internal. Not just as your journal, but as their internal diary. And that's an extraordinary rich time. Must be. What's the first song of that body of work that you feel. A lot of it you still perform, that you feel is strong, is a finished song that you feel good about?
James Taylor
I guess something in the Way She Moves is probably the first Song that I had written, Knocking around the Zoo, and a song called Sunshine, Sunshine before Something in the Way She Moves and actually all the songs on the first album, some of them before, some of them after Something in the Way She Moves, but that was the first one that I thought really worked as a song.
Adam Gopnik
Yeah, you still do material from that period and I know you've talked about it a lot, but one of the things that interests me, if you don't mind just to fast forward a little bit, as a listener of yours, as a follower of yours, one of the things that seemed to me to be true, and I wonder if it was true, is that in the kind of mid-70s, you were searching a bit for a sound for work. And then beginning in the late 70s, you started doing a couple of things. You started doing covers for the first time. You started doing Motown covers, How Sweet It Is and so on. And it seemed as though there was a kind of rebirth through sort of being free to do other people's work as well as yours and sort of shedding the skin of Sweet Baby James and of that material. Was that a fantasy or did you feel some of that?
James Taylor
You know, it just wasn't very, very carefully considered ahead of time. All of those cover tunes that I would do were things that would be thought of at the spur of the moment in the recording studio after we had already recorded two songs that day. That's the way it was with How Sweet It Is. That's the way it was with Handyman, and we're going to be paying for it anyway, so you still feel strong and energetic. And Cooch says, why don't we try How Sweet It Is.
Kim Taylor
How sweet it is to be loved by you how sweet it is to be loved by you.
David Remnick
James Taylor talking with Adam Gopnik at the New Yorker Festival. Ahead this hour, we hear a live performance from James Taylor. It's the New Yorker Radio Hour. Stick around.
Kim Taylor
Needed someone to understand my ups and downs.
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You into the heart of the south with stories that'll make you say, wait.
Adam Gopnik
A second, this is actually real.
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Listen to the broadside one story every week exploring the rich traditions of the South.
David Remnick
This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. James Taylor joined Adam Gopnik in conversation at the New Yorker Festival, and they talk there about how Taylor formed his very distinctive sound, which was so influenced by Brazilian music and in particular Antonio.
Adam Gopnik
Carlos Jobim of that beautiful song Only a Dream in Rio. Did Brazilian music open up your ears and your musical vocabulary?
James Taylor
It sure did. You know, I mentioned the Broadway stuff, the folk music and the light classics that my parents listened to and some satirical stuff. Tom Lehrer, the next level of that was what my brother Alex brought into the house. He brought Ray Charles and Joe Tex and Don Kove and the Hot Nuts, which were a beach music band, and. And his stuff extended into some light jazz. And one of them was that great album recorded in 1963 in three days here in Manhattan. Astrid Gilberto, Joao Gilberto. Girl from Ipanema Tall and tan and.
Adam Gopnik
Young and lovely the girl from Ipanema.
Kim Taylor
Goes walking and when she passes each.
Adam Gopnik
One she passes goes.
James Taylor
And that stuff had a huge effect on me. I loved the chords. I love the. You know, for a guitarist, that Brazilian thing is just a rich vein to get into. And, man, I couldn't get enough. So. And I. You know, that song more recently, the. The idea of that song is it was sort of like one note samba. It's just that. And then the. Changes the harmony underneath it. And that's a very Brazilian, very Jobim thing to do. So I was hugely impressed by that stuff and it was a great source for me. What happened is I developed a little bit of a guitar style from playing Christmas carols and hymns from school. God, that's Deutschland uber alles too, isn't it?
Adam Gopnik
That is. That's the part you want to keep quiet if you can. James, that influence you, really.
James Taylor
No, I only learned. Came to realize that later. We can cut. We can edit right here.
Adam Gopnik
Hi. So, yeah.
James Taylor
No, the. I played hymns, I played Christmas carols. And it gave me that sort of very bedrock kind of western musical.
Adam Gopnik
Bach harmony.
James Taylor
Bach harmony, that kind of thing. And from then I fell into the Beatles and Jobim and it really. I found that I had enough of a technique to be able to adapt those things into it. But the technique itself, I would. I think I'm playing Ray Charles. I think I'm playing Joe Beam. I think I'm playing Paul McCartney, Lennon McCartney. I think I'm playing Holland Dozy or Holland. I think I'm, you know, but actually. Or Sam Cooke or Marvin Gaye. But it actually is put through this sort of narrow filter of my technique of your guitar.
Adam Gopnik
Guitar fingering.
James Taylor
And it makes it sound like James Taylor, like, you know, Carol's tune Up on the Roof, which we did all summer long, and we went back and forth between her version of it and mine. It started being like a.
Kim Taylor
When this whole world starts getting me down and people are just too much for me to feel.
James Taylor
Well, when I adapted the tune and we did it, it was like.
Kim Taylor
When this whole world starts getting me down and people are just too much for me to feel I climb way up to the top of the stairs and all my cares Ages right. And.
Adam Gopnik
All that inner voicing of the. So now we know.
James Taylor
So it gets really Beatles.
Adam Gopnik
Beatles chords, Beatles beats, Brazilian chords and Bach harmonies. And you have James Taylor tune. It's just too painful to have James Taylor up here and not hear you play. Would you play a few things for us?
Kim Taylor
We ring around the rosy Children they were circles around the sun. Never give up, never slow down Never grow old Never ever die young. Synchronized with the rising moon Even with evening star they were true love all written in stone. They were never alone they were never that far apart and we couldn't bear to believe they might make it. We got to close our eyes to cut up our losses into doable doses and brassen our tears and sighs. You can see em on the street on a Saturday night. Everyone used to run them down Their little tears They're a little too tight they're not enough tough with this town. We couldn't touch them with a ten foot pole Nor didn't seem to rattle at all. They were fused together, body and soul that much more with their backs up against the wall. Oh, hold them up, hold them up. Never do let them fall. Pray to the dust and the rust and the ruin that names us, shames us, claims us all. I guess it had to happen someday soon. There wasn't nothing to hold them down. They would rise from all the slaves like a big balloon. Take the sky and forsake the ground. Yes, other hearts were broken and I know other dreams ran dry. But our golden one sailed on and on to another land Beneath another sky. Let other hearts be broken Let other dreams run dry. Let our golden one sail on to another land Beneath another sky Beneath another sky. Up. Hold them up. Hold them up. Hold them up. Hold them up. Hold them up. Hold them up Won't you hold them up.
James Taylor
Thank you. You never die young. I'm going to play that first song. Very early song. First presentable song. I think that I ever a road.
Kim Taylor
Well there's something in the way she moves Looks my way or calls my name that seems to leave this troubled world behind. And if I'm feeling down in blue Troubled by some foolish game. She always seems to make me change my mind I feel fine Anytime that she's around me now she's around me now almost all the time. If I'm well you can tell she's been with me now she's been with me now Quite a long long time and I feel fine Every now and then things at a tino lose their Meaning and I find myself convening into places where I should never let me go she has a power to go but no one else can find me and it's silently remind me of the happiness and good times that I know well, I guess I just got to know them it isn't what she's got to say how she thinks of where she's been to me the words are nice the way they sound I like to hear them best that way doesn't much matter what they mean she says the mostly just calm me down I feel fine Anytime that she's around me now she's around me now I mean just about all the time if I'm well you can tell that she's been with me now she's been with me now Quite a long Quite a long time Quite a long, long time and I feel fine.
Adam Gopnik
I have been playing. I have two children, and for the last 16 years, I've been playing. You can close your eyes for them every night when they go to sleep. And they always ask me, daddy, did you make up that song? And I say, I did, actually.
James Taylor
Yes, of course.
Adam Gopnik
But now they're here tonight and they'll be aware that I didn't actually. James did. But I wonder if, on behalf of this audience, who I know are all moving their fingers, would you teach me to play that song properly?
James Taylor
I will indeed, yes. Let's get a guitar.
Adam Gopnik
Is there a guitar?
James Taylor
Can I get one guitar and plug it in?
Adam Gopnik
Thank you.
James Taylor
Thank you. I bring two in case. These are Olson guitars made by a guy in Minneapolis, St. Paul, and he manages to. He managed in 1985 to get one into a hotel room that I was checking into in Minneapolis. And I've never looked back. So this is the first one that. And this is the most recent one he built. So.
Adam Gopnik
So this is. So I'll take it home tonight. Now we're in D, which Miles Davis said was the key that belonged to you.
James Taylor
Well, it's true. I met Miles Davis once up on 94th Street. And it was, you know, it's one of those things that you take as. With you, as the great man indeed, that he noticed me enough to mention. He said, you know, D is your key.
Adam Gopnik
The oracle is spoken. And the oracle is spoken.
James Taylor
So that's it.
Adam Gopnik
And D is your key. So we start on D. So it's.
Kim Taylor
The sun is short.
James Taylor
That's good. Actually, before we go. That is, before we go any further, I sing this song at home, too. And I've actually more and more recently gotten used to singing with my dear wife Kim, who is here. And I'm gonna pull. She's gonna kill me. Pull me up. Pull her up on stage here somewhere. She is here.
Adam Gopnik
Hi, Kim. Hello.
James Taylor
Good.
Kim Taylor
So.
Adam Gopnik
So this is sort of like open. Open mic night.
James Taylor
It's open mic night. That's right. We are. We're going to. We're gonna. We're gonna go out with a. With a whimper here. So again.
Kim Taylor
When the sun is short, he says, rising down, but the moon is slowly rising. So the soul world must still be spinning around. Can I still love you? So close your eyes. You can close your eyes. It's all right. Great. I don't know no love songs. I can't sing loose anymore.
David Remnick
That was Adam Gopnik on the guitar, accompanied by James Taylor and his wife Kim. I'm David Remnick. Please join me next week and until then, have a great week.
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The New Yorker Radio Hour: From the Archive – "James Taylor Will Teach You Guitar"
Episode Release Date: December 18, 2024
Host: David Remnick
Produced by: WNYC Studios and The New Yorker
In this archived episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour, hosted by David Remnick, listener-supported WNYC Studios presents an intimate conversation between renowned musician James Taylor and writer Adam Gopnik. Recorded during the New Yorker Festival, the episode delves deep into Taylor's musical journey, his distinctive guitar style, and the emotional resonance of his songwriting. The episode seamlessly blends storytelling with live musical performances, offering listeners both insightful dialogue and captivating melodies.
Adam Gopnik initiates the conversation by highlighting James Taylor's unique guitar playing and harmonic language, contrasting it with the prevalent pop music trends of the time.
"Did you study music? How was it that the language of music came to be the language you speak?"
— [01:25] Adam Gopnik
James Taylor shares his early musical experiences, mentioning his initial foray into cello before embracing the guitar, which ultimately defined his musical identity.
"I noticed that the guitar was going to be it for me... It just immediately started making sounds that I wanted to hear more of."
— [04:11] James Taylor
Taylor reminisces about receiving his first guitar from the Schirmer Music Company in Manhattan at age 12, a pivotal moment that steered him away from the cello and towards his beloved instrument.
Adam Gopnik probes into Taylor's early songwriting, asking about his first self-composed song that he considered "good."
"What was the first song you ever wrote that you thought was a good song?"
— [05:17] Adam Gopnik
James Taylor candidly discusses his youthful attempts at songwriting, humorously presenting an early, less polished piece titled "Roll River Roll."
"You know, nobody here tonight has ever heard it is probably proof of how lame it was."
— [05:48] James Taylor
The conversation transitions to Taylor's move to London at nineteen, securing a recording contract with Apple Records, and the emotional challenges of transitioning personal experiences into universally relatable music.
"It was a very strange transition to make... from the private thing to engaging the music business and the popular culture."
— [09:05] James Taylor
Gopnik explores Taylor's evolving musical style in the mid to late 1970s, noting his venture into Motown covers and the sense of rebirth it brought to his artistry.
"You started doing covers for the first time... Was that a fantasy or did you feel some of that?"
— [12:37] Adam Gopnik
Taylor explains that these covers were spontaneous studio choices rather than a premeditated artistic direction, highlighting the organic nature of his musical exploration.
"All of those cover tunes... were thought of at the spur of the moment in the recording studio."
— [13:25] James Taylor
The discussion shifts to Taylor's exposure to Brazilian music, particularly the influence of Antônio Carlos Jobim, and how it enriched his guitar playing and harmonic approach.
"It had a huge effect on me. I loved the chords... that Brazilian thing is just a rich vein to get into."
— [17:56] James Taylor
The episode transitions into a live performance segment where James Taylor and his wife, Kim Taylor, join Adam Gopnik in a musical demonstration. Gopnik, an avid guitarist himself and father to two children, seeks Taylor's guidance in teaching him to play one of Taylor's songs properly.
"I have two children, and for the last 16 years, I've been playing... would you teach me to play that song properly?"
— [31:36] Adam Gopnik
Taylor graciously agrees, leading a hands-on guitar lesson. He introduces Gopnik to an Olson guitar, sharing a personal anecdote about his first Olson guitar and its significance in his musical career.
"These are Olson guitars made by a guy in Minneapolis, St. Paul... I've never looked back."
— [32:12] James Taylor
As they begin the lesson, Taylor emphasizes the importance of the key of D, honoring a memorable encounter where jazz legend Miles Davis declared D to be Taylor's key.
"Miles Davis... said, you know, D is your key."
— [32:43] James Taylor
The segment features a collaborative rendition of "Something in the Way She Moves," with Gopnik attempting to play while Taylor provides guidance, showcasing the practical application of their earlier discussions on musical technique and harmony.
"I'm going to play that first song. Very early song. First presentable song."
— [28:22] James Taylor
Throughout the performance, Kim Taylor contributes vocals, enriching the live experience and highlighting the familial aspect of Taylor's musical journey.
As the episode draws to a close, David Remnick wraps up the conversation, reflecting on the profound insights shared by James Taylor. The episode ends on a high note, leaving listeners with a deeper appreciation of Taylor's artistry and the intimate bond between musician and mentor.
"That was Adam Gopnik on the guitar, accompanied by James Taylor and his wife Kim. I'm David Remnick."
— [35:16] David Remnick
Musical Evolution: James Taylor's transition from cello to guitar was pivotal, allowing him to develop a unique harmonic language influenced by diverse genres, including Brazilian music.
Songwriting as Personal Expression: Taylor's ability to transform personal experiences into universally relatable songs underscores the emotional depth and accessibility of his music.
Live Interaction and Teaching: The episode's live segment offers a rare glimpse into Taylor's role as a mentor, showcasing his willingness to nurture fellow musicians and share his expertise.
Influence of Diverse Genres: Taylor's exposure to Broadway classics, folk, Motown, and Brazilian music significantly shaped his guitar techniques and songwriting approach, contributing to his distinctive sound.
Adam Gopnik:
"Did you study music? How was it that the language of music came to be the language you speak?"
— [01:25]
James Taylor:
"It just immediately started making sounds that I wanted to hear more of."
— [04:11]
Adam Gopnik:
"What was the first song you ever wrote that you thought was a good song?"
— [05:17]
James Taylor:
"It was a very strange transition to make... from the private thing to engaging the music business and the popular culture."
— [09:05]
James Taylor:
"It had a huge effect on me. I loved the chords... that Brazilian thing is just a rich vein to get into."
— [17:56]
Adam Gopnik:
"I have two children, and for the last 16 years, I've been playing... would you teach me to play that song properly?"
— [31:36]
This archived episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour serves as a testament to James Taylor's enduring legacy in the music world. Through heartfelt conversation and live performance, listeners gain an intimate understanding of Taylor's creative process, influences, and the profound impact of his music. Whether you're a long-time fan or new to his work, this episode offers a rich, engaging exploration of one of America's beloved singer-songwriters.