The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode Summary: Glenda Jackson Onstage, and Marco Rubio on “Modernizing” Conservatism

Airdate: June 1, 2018
Host: David Remnick, with Susan Glasser
Guests: Glenda Jackson, Marco Rubio

Episode Overview

This episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour features two in-depth interviews. First, Susan Glasser sits down with acclaimed British actress and former Parliament member Glenda Jackson, reflecting on her return to the stage and her thoughts on contemporary politics. Second, Glasser interviews Florida Senator Marco Rubio, who discusses his vision for a "modernized" conservatism, U.S.-China relations, and the challenges of Republican leadership in the age of Trump. The conversations blend cultural and political insights, with both guests offering candid views on their fields and the current state of the world.

Part 1: Glenda Jackson – The Power and Torment of the Stage

1.1 Glenda Jackson's Triumphant Return to Broadway

• Performance: Jackson is starring in Edward Albee’s Three Tall Women, portraying a 90-something-year-old with “fight and wit,” nominated for a Tony Award.
• Resilience: At 82, Jackson delivers emotionally wrenching performances eight times a week.
  • Quote: “Within the play, as within all good plays, there is an energy. That is what gives you… the capacity to find those characters, find them anew.” (02:12)
• Approach: Every performance should leave “nothing to take home.” Jackson emphasizes a complete investment in each night’s work.
  • Quote: “In a strange kind of way, you should have nothing to take home. I mean, you should have put everything that has to be put on that stage and left it in the theatre.” (02:59)

1.2 Her History with Edward Albee

• Collaboration: Jackson recounted being directed by Albee in Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? in 1990.
• Challenging Dynamics: She describes Albee as “a man in a glass case,” distant and lacking typical camaraderie.
  • Quote: “There seemed to be no capacity within him for ordinary human exchange. I can’t remember him ever smiling... never going for a drink with us.” (03:32)
• Creative Tensions: Disagreements about script details illustrated Albee’s rigid expectations vs. Jackson’s practical approach to character.

1.3 Transition from Politics to Stage

• Parliament Experience: Served as a Labour MP for 23 years; returned to theatre simply because “it was about time somebody else had a go.” (05:15)
• Playing King Lear: Inspired by Spanish actress Nuria Espert's portrayal in Barcelona, Jackson proposed the radical casting of herself as Lear in London.
  • Quote: “As we age, those gender barriers begin to crack, they begin to fray... similarities on a human level... are not risible or dismissable simply because of age.” (06:10)

1.4 On Aging, Experience, and Fear in Acting

• Reflecting on Youth: Jackson is not nostalgic; finds watching her earlier performances “torment” and questions her past choices (07:46).
• Stage Fright: Recalled working with actress Mona Washburn, whose genuine pre-show terror revealed that “you are always, always afraid” as an actor (08:47).
• Quotable Story: Repeats a story about Laurence Olivier’s post-show fury at not knowing why a performance excelled—a testament to acting’s unpredictability (09:55).

1.5 Views on Politics: Brexit and Global Illiberalism

• Comparing Political Chaos: Sees parallels between U.S. and British political turmoil (10:10).
• Brexit: Criticizes both major parties for failing to address constituent concerns, leading to the EU referendum.
  • Quote: “All the political parties, in my view, tap danced around that issue for a good decade.” (11:01)
• On Immigration Policy: Acknowledges cultural strain from unchecked immigration, emphasizing the need for open dialogue among nations (12:42).
  • Quote: “We have to talk to each other. When I say we, I mean the countries of the world as well as the individuals.” (12:48)
• Sympathy for Theresa May: Calls May “the only adult in the room” amid Brexit turmoil, and criticizes David Cameron for calling the referendum (13:14, 13:31).
• Looking Forward: Remains open to future acting projects, declaring, “You’re lucky to be given a job. That’s the bottom line as far as I’m concerned.” (14:21)

Part 2: Marco Rubio – Modernizing the Republican Vision

2.1 China as America’s Defining Global Challenge

• Comprehensive Threat: Rubio expresses increasing concern over the breadth of China’s ambitions—economic, technological, and geopolitical.
  • Quote: “When you put it all together, suddenly the light bulb goes off and you realize this is much deeper than just a conflict with a country. This is an all out effort to change the world order.” (16:45)
• Trump Administration: Rubio views President Trump’s China instincts as “right,” yet portrays the administration as internally divided, with the policy debate ongoing (18:13).

2.2 Rethinking Conservatism in the Trump Era

• “The Era Made Trump”: Rubio argues that larger trends produced Trump, rather than vice versa (19:29).
• Security and Economics Linked: Stresses that China’s rise is not just economic but a fundamental security threat; controlling future technologies globally has vast implications (20:27).

2.3 Russia, 2016 Election, and “The Deep State”

• Election Interference: Rubio reiterates lack of evidence that Russian interference changed the 2016 outcome but concurs that Putin preferred Trump (21:29).
  • Quote: “But his real goal, his ultimate goal, was to sow chaos in American democracy because that way he can turn around and say, you have no right to lecture us on our internal processes when your own process is corrupt, flawed and broken.” (21:59)
• On Deep State: Dismisses conspiratorial interpretations; acknowledges that bureaucrats sometimes work counter to elected officials but sees no evidence of a “vast organized conspiracy” (23:40).

2.4 The Republican Identity Crisis and Policy Modernization

• Economic Realism: Rubio admits the party must better address the human costs of free trade and automation.
  • Quote: “Our instincts are right... but that has to be melded with reality of everyday life.” (25:06)
  • On trade: “Even if free trade creates 50 new jobs, it destroyed 30... They’re human beings with families. And a lot of those 30 live in the same community, working in the same industry, far from where the 50 new jobs were created.” (26:03)
• Conservative “Software Update”: Describes his vision not as “reform conservatism” but as “modernizing”—updating policies to address modern challenges (27:22).
  • Quote: “Just like every couple weeks I get an update... I think we have to update... because there’s new ideas.” (27:22)

2.5 Working with President Trump

• Professional Relationship: Despite the bitter primary, Rubio reports frequent, functional communication with Trump. Uses a boxing metaphor:
  • Quote: “I’ve never heard a boxer after a match asked, hey, were you upset when he punched you in the face in the third round? ...Of course he punched me in the face. It was a boxing match.” (28:08)
• Balancing Dissent and Cooperation: Rubio insists he works with Trump when possible, speaks up in disagreement, and maintains autonomy.
  • Quote: “When I disagree with him, I’ve spoken about why I disagree, and I’ve tried to change his mind, but I tell him myself. I don’t...” (28:53)

2.6 Will He Run for President Again?

• Uncertain Future: Rubio is noncommittal about 2024, citing family considerations and current Senate responsibilities.
  • Quote: “I don’t say no. But it’s certainly not something I’m building towards because right now we have a lot of work to do here.” (30:15, 30:58)
• Trump’s Reelection: Rubio predicts Trump will run and believes he will be reelected (31:00).

2.7 Responding to Intra-Party Criticism

• On Jeff Flake’s Critique: Rubio respects Flake but rejects the label of “utterly supine,” insisting he pushes back when necessary and avoids living in the “outrage cycle” (31:46).
• Navigating Outrage: Differentiates genuine lines that must not be crossed (e.g., policy, Charlottesville) from media overreaction, explaining how constant outrage can distract from substantive work (32:50–33:45).

2.8 Governing in a Polarized Era

• Pragmatism: Calls for collaboration wherever possible, opposition when essential—across and within party lines.
  • Quote: “This system of government does not work if people who have different views cannot figure out how to at least talk to each other and find out what they do agree on.” (34:40)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Glenda Jackson: “I think most actors are sadomasochists, actually. Why do we put ourselves through this torment? Because it is torment. It is absolutely. It is.” (07:46)
• Glenda Jackson on Brexit: “In essence, really, the person who made the biggest error was David Cameron, who called the referendum in the first instance, now he called it to quiet his own backbenchers.” (13:31)
• Marco Rubio on China: “This is an all out effort to change the world order. And I think that's a dangerous development...” (16:45)
• Marco Rubio on conservatism: “It starts with a proposition that the economy should serve people, not people serve the economy.” (26:33)
• Rubio’s Boxing Analogy: “Of course he punched me in the face. It was a boxing match.” (28:08)

Segment Timestamps for Key Discussions

• Glenda Jackson interview: 00:45–14:39
  • Discussing Three Tall Women and acting: 02:12–08:55
  • Brexit and UK politics: 10:03–14:16
• Marco Rubio interview: 16:12–34:57
  • China and foreign policy: 16:12–20:55
  • 2016 election and Russia: 20:55–24:51
  • Modernizing conservatism/economic challenges: 25:06–27:33
  • Working with Trump/Republican future: 27:37–34:50

Conclusion

This episode offers a rare look into the artistic and political realities of two public figures—Glenda Jackson’s fearless approach to acting and her sharp political analysis, and Marco Rubio’s evolving conservatism moderated by real-world experience and party dynamics. Both interviews candidly reflect on resilience, change, and the necessity of dialogue in turbulent times.