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The New Yorker Radio Hour
Governor Gretchen Whitmer on COVID-19, Trump, and the Accusations Against Joe Biden
00:24:19
Michigan is the tenth-largest state by population, but it has the third-largest number of COVID-19 deaths. Governor Gretchen Whitmer enacted some of the country’s most stringent stay-at-home orders, even forbidding landscaping and fishing. Furious and sometimes armed protesters became national news. Meanwhile, Whitmer’s outspoken criticism of the Trump Administration’s efforts on behalf of the states made her a frequent target of the President. “I didn’t ask to be thrown into the national spotlight,” Whitmer tells Susan B. Glasser. “I’m just trying to do my job, and I’m never going to apologize for that. Because lives are at stake here.” Whitmer’s national visibility has brought rumors that she is on the short list for Joe Biden’s Vice-Presidential pick. Whitmer is a sexual-assault survivor herself, and she explains why she stands by Biden despite the accusation made by his former aide Tara Reade. Susan B. Glasser also speaks with David Remnick about the tensions that have emer...
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This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.
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Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. The Death toll from COVID 19 is now above 70,000. The hotspots are shifting and polls find broad public support for stay at home orders. And yet many states are moving to reopen as quickly as possible. This despite reports circulating in the White House that lifting restrictions too early will result in more cases of the disease. Texas Governor Greg Abbott admitted as much last week privately to legislators, while at the same time explaining his plan to reopen. More transmission of the disease means inevitably more deaths. And as for the president, he told the states to compete against one another to obtain medical supplies, and he's made reopening a matter for the governors to handle as well. Meanwhile, on Twitter, Donald Trump eggs on protesters like the ones in Michigan. The New Yorker's Washington correspondent Susan Glasser joins me now. Susan, welcome.
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C
Thank you so much, David.
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So the president seems to be encouraging protests, specifically in swing states with Democratic governors. Why for Donald Trump is it good to have these optics? Forgive me, that Washington word of armed people brandishing reactionary slogans on the steps of the state Capitol and even in the state Capitol. Why can that possibly be good for him?
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C
I'm only laughing because in conventional political terms, it's not. But Donald Trump is a fervent believer that in a divided, partisan, gridlocked United States, having a fervent minority behind you is more politically valuable than having a less passionate majority. And that is his strategy. There's also, I think, a sense that there is a deep don't tread on me kind of red America versus blue America divide to be exploited here. And in part, that reflects the painful geography and demographics of at least the early stages of the COVID 19 outbreak in the United States. Now, will the politics change as the death toll changes its location? That, I think is something we may yet be early days of understanding the political geography of this particular crisis.
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But here's what makes it even more confusing. The president is attacking not only Democratic governors, but even somebody like Brian Kemp of Georgia, who's a die hard supporter and seemed to be doing exactly what the administration wanted.
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Well, you know, you do also see Trump's completely situational approach to almost any kind of matter, even a national public health crisis. And I think that comes from the fact that he is willing to sort of do and say things that he perceives to benefit himself at the moment. So he was for Georgia's reopening before he was against it. And what's interesting about the decision making of Governor Kemp and other Southern governors who've made this decision to reopen their states is that none of those states, not a single one of those states, at least as you and I are having this conversation, met any of their criteria laid out by Trump's own administration and presented by himself at his own press briefing for. For reopening. Remember, there was supposed to be the three phases of reopening, and even phase one was not supposed to begin until you had seen a certain number of new infections going down. That had not been the case for a single day in Georgia before Brian Kemp decided to reopen the state. So even by Trump's own policy that he himself announced, none of these states have met those criteria. And I think that doesn't get said enough. To me, that's a very significant point to make, is that it's not by some arbitrary or democratic standard, but in fact, it's actually by the Trump administration standards. None of these states should have been doing this.
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Susan Glasser writes letter from Trump's Washington in the New Yorker. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. More in a moment. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Susan Glaser writes letter from Trump's Washington in the New Yorker. Susan also spoke last week with Gretchen Whitmer, governor of Michigan, where some of the most visible and angry protests against quarantine measures have taken place. Whitmer is widely thought to be on the short list of vice presidential nominees for Joe Biden. She spoke from the governor's residence in Lansing.
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All right, I'm here. Hi. How is everyone?
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Oh, hi, Governor Whitmer. It's Susan Glasser from the New Yorker. How are you today?
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I'm doing great. Glad to be with you.
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Well, I have to tell you, I was speaking with some friends in one of those omnipresent zoom phone calls the other day, and these friends are actually in Europe, in Eastern Europe. And first thing they asked me about was, what is up with those protesters in Michigan? So I said, well, I'm gonna interview Governor Whitmer and I'm gonna ask her. That is one of the indelible images, I think, for people in the US and internationally is this visceral image of men with long guns inside the Michigan State House. How could it come to be right?
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Right. So in a state of 10 million people, the vast majority of people are doing the right thing. We are staying home. We are observing the best practices. We've really seen our curve just get pushed down and a lot of lives have been saved. And there are certainly a small number of people that descended on the Capitol and got a lot of attention and showed up with things like Confederate flags and nooses and swastikas and automatic rifles. I've never seen that happen in the state capitol of Michigan. And you know, I've been in office for the better part of the last 20 years. I've never seen anything like it. And it was a felt very much like a political rally as opposed to citizens who are unhappy about the stay home order, which is what it was billed as. And it's unfortunate because I think that's what people see and get an impression of Michigan that really isn't reflective of who we are and what is happening here in our state.
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Well, I have to say I think one thing for people certainly living outside the US Was just the shocking idea that it's even legal to bring guns into the state House.
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Yeah, well, you know what, that's what the law has been in Michigan for a long time. We are a big hunting state. There's a lot of recreational, you know, gun owners. I think that the policy is reflective of that. And the fact of the matter is you could still take a gun into the Capitol, but not a sign which tells you kind of that the policy doesn't make a lot of sense. And as a result, there's actually a conversation that's been started about preventing guns from being brought into the Capitol. And in my opinion, it's long overdue.
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C
That's interesting. That might be one of the outcomes. Let's step back for a second. You're still in the middle of the crisis, of course, and I guess the numbers still suggest that Michigan is dealing with the third largest death toll so far in the nation from COVID 19. What is the latest thinking from you as far as what the next month is going to look like in Michigan?
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You know, Michigan's experience with COVID 19 was worse than other states. Not in sheer numbers because we are the 10th largest state, but we've got the third highest number of deaths in the country. And it demanded that we take a more aggressive approach to mitigating community spread, to keeping our hospital systems from becoming overwhelmed. And so the policies that I signed, as an example, executive orders, we're more aggressive than other states. And so as we see people anxious to re engage, we've been able to turn the valve a little bit to start to re engage some things like landscaping and motorized boating. These are things that were already being done in most states. But the fact that we had to be so aggressive means we can start taking these smaller steps and continue to determine how prevalent COVID 19 is in Michigan as we decide whether or not we can turn that dial and take the next step.
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Do you feel like you were, as a governor, left to fend for yourself by the federal government in trying to figure out things like this decision?
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I do think that a national strategy would have been a good thing for our country. I said so early on, and I got. I got quite a backlash from the White House because I shared that observation. A national strategy for what the policy is, how we procure all of the supplies that we need. These are two really critical components of what I think would have helped us as states all across the country that we're lacking.
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If I'm working for you and I call you up and I say, governor, listen, we got a huge crisis of, I don't know, N95 masks in the hospital. Do you know who to call in the federal government to get that sorted out? Who would you call?
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Well, so in that scenario right now, I would say I would call my state emergency operations center because we've become procurement officers at the state level because we had to. There was never the Defense Production act invoked, whereby there was a central place where we would all go to get these things. Instead, we kind of been trying to outbid one another and outrace one another to procure these items. And so we've been able to build up a supply here in Michigan. Now we've been able to transition some of our manufacturers into making ppe. And so I do have a number that I text to get on the phone with the vice president. He's been very accessible, always very cordial, and I've had a good working relationship with him. But if someone called me right now and said, we need N95 masks, I'd be calling my people.
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C
Why do you think you, of all the governors, have been such a target of the president and those who seem to be his supporters in Michigan? Does this have to do with national politics? Is it domestic politics? Did you just get under his skin because he doesn't like to be criticized by a powerful woman? Why do you think it is?
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You know, I can't get inside the mindset to answer that with confidence. I'll just say that I spoke out and I said what I needed, and for whatever reason, it cut through and they singled me out for criticism. Nationally. It was. I didn't ask to be thrown into the national spotlight. I'm just trying to do my job and I'm never going to apologize for that because I. Lives are at stake here.
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C
You know, it's really interesting. I do think that was just, as an observer, a key moment early on that suggested where the President was going to go with this. Right. You know, we still, none of us really understood what was going to happen in March. And I think that was such a, like, attention, head snapping moment when he, when he started to, you know, call you names and, you know, suggested that it was going to be a much more partisan approach to the coronavirus. And, you know, obviously from there it's gotten more so in some ways and not less. How has that manifested itself like in reality? I mean, do you think Michigan has been hurt by this approach because it has a Democratic governor? Has Trump done anything to follow through on the rhetoric of saying you weren't nice enough to him and therefore your state will suffer?
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I'll tell you, when the tweets came, it was in the evening. And I remember I couldn't sleep that night because my biggest fear is that partisanship is going to stand in the way of us being able to save lives here on the front line. You know, I couldn't get my mind around it because it's just, I mean, it shouldn't be that way. We're all Americans. The enemy is not one another. The enemy is a virus. And it doesn't care what party you're in, it doesn't care what state you're in. Every one of us is vulnerable. Every one of us should have an expectation that the federal government is going to care and work with whomever our governor is to deliver.
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Was there a moment that leaps out to you that you remember where you realized this was happening and your life and your entire governorship was now going to revolve around dealing with this crisis? I mean, I remember my last trip was that Friday, March 6th, I believe. Was there something like that for you where you're like, oh, I'm not going to do this again. It's not going to be normal.
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You know, we literally went in the span of 24 hours from probably hosting the last campaign rallies of the 2020 presidential cycle. The primary here was on March 10, March 9, I was in Detroit at a big rally with Vice President Biden. He won. The next day, just as the race was being called, the phone call came in and said we had our two first positive cases of COVID 19 in Michigan. I went straight down to the state emergency operations center. And did the press conference, and every day from that has been completely dedicated to this effort to build up our public health side, to protect people, to issue orders, to. I mean, it's just been zoom calls with the front line. I mean, there wasn't a moment where it all dawned on me. Life may not be the same for a long, long time. It was that 24 hour period where it flipped from being a political rally to all of a sudden being in essentially a stay home posture for two months. It's been now.
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C
Well, you mentioned the presidential race, of course. You know, it's been widely reported that you're on the short list of possible vice presidential nominees to run with Joe Biden. You have stuck with the vice President as these accusations of sexual assault against him from Tara Reid have come out. What basis do you have for evaluating it besides just listening? As I'm listening and reading and evaluating, what do you think should be done to vet these allegations? Or do you think we already know what we need to know?
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Well, you know, as an assault survivor myself, I'll just say that I think that we need to listen to women. We need to give every woman an opportunity to tell her story if she wants to and consider it and then vet it. And I think that that's really important. You know, 27 years ago I was in college. You know, I wasn't. I don't have any firsthand knowledge of any of these accusations, but I have, I've read a lot, I've listened, I've paid attention, and I've talked to Joe and I know.
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C
You know, have you talked with him directly about this?
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No, not specifically about this, but you know, in a bigger sense, and I know that this one allegation is not consistent with what I know of Joe Biden and the inconsistencies in the allegation just lead me to feel comfortable saying that I believe Joe and I support Joe.
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C
You know, you obviously hear a lot of accusations, you know, from conservatives, from Republicans, that this is essentially a hypocritical stand. For those who said very similar things on the right about Brett Kavanaugh when he was being appointed Supreme Court, we need to listen to Christine Blasey Ford. But I just don't, you know, you know, it doesn't square with what I know about Brett Kavanaugh. You know, what you just said about Joe Biden is not that dissimilar from what some senators said about Brett Kavanaugh, is it?
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You know, every, every instance is different. And I think that our system of due process requires that these allegations are listened to. There was a long time where people wouldn't even listen to women where they were written off or threatened to even come forward. I didn't tell my story for many years because I was worried about it. And I didn't do it because of anything other than I needed to give voice to women who were being completely discounted and left out of a conversation around our reproductive health. I think that none of this is simple and none of this is equal. I think that it's really important that we take it upon ourselves to get the facts and make our own determination.
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C
So you are hopeful that there will be further investigation or some additional vetting of what she said about Vice President Biden?
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I think that there's, you know, from what I understand, there's been quite a thorough vetting and that there, you know, haven't been substantive information shared that leads me to believe that that particular allegation is true. I don't discredit her personally, I assume. You know, I mean, I believe that a lot of women, you know, have gone through tough times. And so. So I'm never going to attack another woman who's come forward. I'm just telling you that in doing my due diligence and what I know of Joe Biden, that this is inconsistent with who I know him to be. And I believe him.
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C
Well, it certainly is going to be notable to see if the Trump campaign and President Trump, who's been accused of numerous incidents of sexual harassment and assault by a number of women, I think it's at 26 or something right now, whether this comes up in the fall campaign or not.
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A
Well, you know, I think right now, you know, what we've spent the vast majority of our conversation today about is about this moment in America. And in this moment in America, we have 30 million people who've lost their jobs. We have lost the equivalent of a 9, 11 in a 24 hour period is what they're anticipating before the month's end and maybe in many concurrent, you know, succeeding 24 hour periods. These are really tough times that we are in. And I think as we think about who we are, who we are as Americans, where we want to be, what we want for our children, that the leadership matters and steady hand matters and a vision that is inclusive and creates opportunity for all. And I think that's what's going to be front and center as we get closer to November.
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C
Governor Whitmer, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you.
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Glad to be with you.
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Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer talking with the New Yorker's Susan Glasser earlier this week. Susan, I have to say Governor Whitmer seemed to be walking a very fine line there trying to figure out how to support Joe Biden in spite of Tara Reid's allegations. One of the phrases that came out of the MeToo movement, and it was a very serious phrase, was believe women. Where does this leave us with Joe Biden?
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C
Well, you know, Biden said in his interview about this accusation, well, believe women, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have a full investigation or a vetting of their claims. That's a starting point, not an ending point. In our conversation just now, Governor Whitmer seem to echo that view of Joe Biden's. But you know, again, we're talking about in this case, a 27 year old allegation. There's no legal process set up to deal with it. There appears to be no contemporaneous allegation or complaint that at least we're going to have easy access to. And so, you know, what are the standards by which any of us can judge this? I think it's very difficult. Now I remember at the beginning of the MeToo movement and worrying that without some standard of due process to go along with accusations like this, we would be left in a sort of morass of truth being elusive and never establishable. And I think that is a dangerous thing for a country and I don't think it's good for women either. So it's a worrisome development that we're essentially in this sort of post truth moment of throwing up our hands as a polity and saying, I don't know, how are we supposed to establish the veracity or not of these claims?
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So given the extensive body of accusations that exist against Donald Trump, how is this issue going to play out? We saw how Trump used Bill Clinton's past against Hillary in 2016. How do you think he might deploy it against, ironically, Joe Biden?
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C
Well, that's right. Donald Trump is sort of a extremely successful human fog machine and he spews forth enough confusion and uncertainty that it helps to absolve him of accountability or responsibility for many of the things he's been accused of over the course of his career. And even though I think an outside observer would say the weight of accusations from, I believe it's something like more than two dozen women at this point against Donald Trump versus this single disturbing but perplexing incident from one woman against Biden, you know, those do not appear to be equivalent matters, but Donald Trump and his team, I think, will do their best to put it into the fog machine.
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I spoke with Susan Glasser, the New Yorker's Washington correspondent, last week. I'm David Remnick and that's the New Yorker Radio Hour for today. Thanks for listening.
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The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Alexis Cuadrado. This episode was produced by Alex Baron, Emily Botin, Ave Carrillo, Rhiannon Corby, Calla Leah, David Krasnow, Gofen M. Putubwele, Louis Mitchell, Michelle, Michelle Moses, and Steven Valentino, with help from Allison McAdam, Danny Bonner, Meng Fei Chen, and Emily Mann. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.