Podcast Summary:

The New Yorker Radio Hour
Episode: Governor Gretchen Whitmer on COVID-19, Trump, and the Accusations Against Joe Biden
Date: May 8, 2020
Host: David Remnick
Guests: Susan Glasser (New Yorker correspondent), Governor Gretchen Whitmer

Overview

This episode explores the intersecting crises of the COVID-19 pandemic, volatile partisan politics, and high-stakes accusations in the 2020 presidential race. David Remnick and Susan Glasser discuss President Trump’s approach to the pandemic, the tension between federal and state authority, and the resulting protests—particularly in Michigan. The episode features an in-depth interview with Governor Gretchen Whitmer, who describes her experiences managing Michigan’s crisis, being targeted by the White House, and addressing the sexual assault allegations against Joe Biden. The conversation balances political analysis, firsthand leadership insights, and the complex calculus of public trust.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Political Calculus and the State Protests

[00:11–04:21]

• Remnick frames the context: Over 70,000 COVID-19 deaths, shifting hotspots, but states reopening amid warnings. President Trump incites protests, especially in swing states like Michigan.
  • “The president seems to be encouraging protests, specifically in swing states with Democratic governors. Why… is it good to have these optics… of armed people brandishing reactionary slogans…?” (Remnick, 01:17)
• Glasser: Trump believes a passionate minority base is more powerful than a dispassionate majority, enabling him to exploit America’s partisan and demographic divides.
  • "Donald Trump is a fervent believer that in a divided, partisan, gridlocked United States, having a fervent minority behind you is more politically valuable than having a less passionate majority. And that is his strategy." (Glasser, 01:39)
• On Trump’s situational governance: Trump’s support of state reopening is inconsistent and tied to political perception rather than his administration’s own public health guidelines.
  • "None of these states, at least as you and I are having this conversation, met any of their criteria laid out by Trump's own administration… And I think that doesn't get said enough." (Glasser, 03:47)

2. Governor Whitmer on the Michigan Protests

[05:06–07:47]

• Whitmer describes Michigan as largely compliant but internationally known for the dramatic protests at the State Capitol, marked by guns and hate symbols.
  • “There are… a small number of people that descended on the Capitol and got a lot of attention… with Confederate flags and nooses and swastikas and automatic rifles. I've never seen that happen in the state capitol of Michigan.” (Whitmer, 05:50)
• She points out the absurdity that guns are legal in the capitol, but signs are not, suggesting the policy is overdue for change.

3. Michigan’s Crisis Management and Federal-State Relations

[07:47–11:04]

• Michigan’s COVID-19 experience, with the third-largest death toll, prompted aggressive restrictions and a cautious reopening strategy.
  • “The policies that I signed… were more aggressive than other states. And so as we see people anxious to re-engage, we've been able to turn the valve a little bit…” (Whitmer, 08:12)
• Whitmer criticizes the lack of a coherent federal strategy, emphasizing the difficulties states faced in acquiring medical supplies.
  • “I do think that a national strategy would have been a good thing for our country… I got quite a backlash from the White House because I shared that observation.” (Whitmer, 09:28)
• On supply chains, she describes becoming de facto procurement officers due to federal inaction:
  • “We've become procurement officers at the state level because we had to… We kind of been trying to outbid one another… to procure these items.” (Whitmer, 10:11)

4. Political Targeting and National Spotlight

[11:04–13:26]

• Whitmer reflects on being singled out by Trump and his supporters, suggesting it’s partly because she “spoke out and… said what I needed.”
• She voices worries that partisanship would jeopardize the state's ability to save lives.
  • “My biggest fear is that partisanship is going to stand in the way of us being able to save lives here on the front line… The enemy is not one another. The enemy is a virus.” (Whitmer, 12:41)

5. Personal and Political Turning Point

[13:26–15:06]

• Whitmer recalls the rapid transformation from political campaigning (with Biden in Detroit, March 9) to crisis management as Michigan received its first COVID-19 cases on March 10.
  • “We literally went in the span of 24 hours from probably hosting the last campaign rallies… to… our two first positive cases… It's just been zoom calls with the front line… Life may not be the same for a long, long time.” (Whitmer, 13:52)

6. On the Accusations Against Joe Biden

[15:06–19:02]

• Whitmer, rumored VP candidate, addresses the Tara Reade sexual assault allegation against Biden.
  • “As an assault survivor myself… we need to listen to women… consider it and then vet it… I don't have any firsthand knowledge of any of these accusations, but… this one allegation is not consistent with what I know of Joe Biden.” (Whitmer, 15:43; 16:23)
• She distinguishes between believing women and supporting due process:
  • “Every instance is different. And I think that our system of due process requires that these allegations are listened to… I think that it's really important that we take it upon ourselves to get the facts and make our own determination.” (Whitmer, 17:14)
• On further investigation, Whitmer notes a “thorough vetting” has happened and reiterates her support for Biden.

7. Reflections on Political Weaponization of Allegations

[20:26–23:23]

• Glasser and Remnick analyze the broader implications for the MeToo movement and the difficulties in vetting decades-old allegations.
  • "Without some standard of due process… we would be left in a sort of morass of truth being elusive and never establishable. And I think that is a dangerous thing for a country and I don't think it's good for women either." (Glasser, 21:34)
• Trump’s strategy is described as a “fog machine,” seeking to create confusion and minimize accountability, including over the issue of sexual misconduct allegations.
  • “[Trump] spews forth enough confusion and uncertainty that it helps to absolve him of accountability…” (Glasser, 22:31)
• Despite the vast difference in volume and nature of accusations between Trump and Biden, Trump’s campaign is expected to use the Biden allegation for political leverage.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Having a fervent minority behind you is more politically valuable than having a less passionate majority.” — Susan Glasser (01:39)
• “I've never seen anything like it. It felt very much like a political rally as opposed to citizens… which is what it was billed as.” —Gretchen Whitmer on Capitol protests (05:50)
• “We are Americans. The enemy is not one another. The enemy is a virus.” —Gretchen Whitmer (12:41)
• “We need to listen to women… and then vet it… I'm just telling you that in doing my due diligence and what I know of Joe Biden, that this is inconsistent with who I know him to be.” —Gretchen Whitmer on the Biden allegation (15:43, 18:15)
• “[Trump] is a… human fog machine and he spews forth enough confusion and uncertainty that it helps to absolve him of accountability…” —Susan Glasser (22:31)

Key Timestamps

• 00:11 – COVID-19 crisis context, Trump’s political strategy
• 01:39 – Glasser on Trump’s base and optics of protest
• 05:50 – Whitmer on Michigan protests, gun laws
• 08:12 – Aggressive response and cautious reopening in Michigan
• 09:28 – Critique of federal government, supply chain struggles
• 13:52 – Whitmer’s turning point from campaigning to crisis
• 15:43 – Addressing the Biden accusation, due process, personal reflection
• 22:31 – Glasser on Trump’s political use of allegations

Tone & Language

The episode maintains a measured, analytic, yet personal tone. Governor Whitmer is straightforward, sometimes emotional; Glasser is incisive, occasionally wry but firmly grounded in political reality. Remnick is probing but empathetic, guiding discussions with clarity.

Summary

This episode offers a candid exploration of the turmoil facing American politics and public health in spring 2020. It highlights the challenges of leadership under fire, the urgency of coordinated crisis response, and the fraught intersection of gender, power, and accountability during a politically charged pandemic. Governor Whitmer’s insights reveal the strain and responsibility of state executives, while the discussion on sexual assault allegations against political leaders underscores broader questions about trust, due process, and political gamesmanship in an era defined by deep partisan divides.