The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: Have State Legislatures Gone Rogue? And Joshua Yaffa on Evan Gershkovich
Air Date: May 5, 2023
Host: David Remnick
Guests: Jacob Grumbach (Political Scientist, University of Washington), Joshua Yaffa (New Yorker Contributor)

Overview

This episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour is divided into two segments:

1. State Legislatures and Democratic Backsliding: David Remnick and political scientist Jacob Grumbach discuss recent alarming trends in state legislatures, particularly the expulsion and silencing of Democratic lawmakers by Republican supermajorities. They explore how state-level politics have become battlegrounds in national culture wars, why these anti-democratic tactics are increasing, and the consequences for American democracy.
2. Joshua Yaffa on Evan Gershkovich's Detention in Russia: Remnick speaks with longtime Russia correspondent Joshua Yaffa about the arrest of Wall Street Journal reporter Evan Gershkovich, a personal friend, on espionage charges. Yaffa reflects on the life of foreign correspondents in Moscow and the escalating repression under Vladimir Putin.

Segment 1: State Legislatures, Culture Wars, and Democratic Erosion

(00:11 – 16:15)

Key Discussion Points

Recent Legislative Expulsions & Silencing

• Tennessee Expulsions: Two Democratic lawmakers were expelled from the Tennessee legislature for joining a gun control protest after the Nashville school shooting—not for corruption or criminal conduct.
• Montana Ban: Rep. Zooey Zephyr, a Democrat, was barred from the Montana House for opposing a ban on trans healthcare (00:59).
• Broader Pattern: Legislatures in Arizona, Wisconsin, and North Carolina have tried to strip power from Democratic officials, transferring authority to Republican-controlled figures.

The Nationalization of State Politics

• State legislatures have become “the front line of battling over the national tug of war over issues in the culture war,” especially on transgender rights and racial conflict (02:22 – Grumbach).

Role of Outside Organizations and Money

• Koch Brothers, ALEC: Groups like Americans for Prosperity and the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) fund and equip state legislatures, providing “legislative subsidies” in the form of model bills—especially in less professionalized states (03:46 – Grumbach).
  • “State legislatures, I don’t mean this as an insult, are less professionalized and more amateurish than Congress.” (04:17 – Grumbach)
  • ALEC organizes business, gun rights advocates, and the religious right to quickly spread template laws like “Stand Your Ground.”

Shift from Local to National Issues

• Disconnect from Constituents: State politics used to focus on local concerns (e.g., agriculture, property tax), but now prioritize culture war issues often unrelated to local needs (05:35 – Remnick; 06:00 – Grumbach).
  • “An issue like policies to go after transgender health care or rights…they’re not responding to a local concern.” (06:30 – Grumbach)
• Politicians' motivations: “Your best bet is to join the national culture war.” (06:56 – Grumbach), citing figures like Ron DeSantis as “entrepreneurial” in nationalizing their brand.

Media Decline and Accountability

• Loss of Local Journalism: The decline of local news (especially from lost ad revenue) has made it harder to hold state officials accountable and shifted focus entirely to national party dynamics (08:38 – Grumbach).

Erosion of Democratic Norms

• Stripping Power, Gerrymandering, Expulsions: Remnick raises examples from Arizona and other states where Republican-controlled legislatures strip power from Democratic state officials (09:30).
• Unique American Vulnerability: The U.S. places unusual trust in state control over election administration, opening avenues for “electoral subversion” (10:03 – Grumbach).
  • “That’s the key question, David. So I would say the most serious consequence…has been threats to American democracy.” (10:03 – Grumbach)

Urban-Rural Divide & Party Coalitions

• Demographic Trends: The Republican Party combines an “elite economic base” with an electoral base “motivated by anti-immigration and other culture war issues,” a combination rare globally (11:49 – Grumbach).

Political Asymmetry & Dangers of Overreach

• Remnick challenges the idea of false equivalence, noting that while Democrats have sometimes bent norms (e.g., committee assignments, filibuster, minor gerrymanders), the scale and severity are not comparable to the current Republican practices (12:34 – Remnick; 13:14 – Grumbach).
  • “When you just look at them in the aggregate, they don’t stack up.” (13:14 – Grumbach)
• On Republican culture war issues like abortion, gun rights:
  • “Going too far? Absolutely has been backfiring.” (14:47 – Grumbach)

Paths Forward

• Healthier States: Some, like Washington and Colorado, have fair redistricting and expanded voting access (15:18 – Grumbach).
• Labor Unions as Moderators: Grumbach credits organized labor for tempering partisan polarization, particularly among working-class white and Latino men.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the nationalization of state politics:
  “We really have two national teams, the Republicans and the Democrats, battling over this tug of war nationally through the institutions of state government.” (03:13 – Grumbach)
• On professionalization:
  “They don’t have big staff to write bills, they don’t have staff lawyers all the time.” (04:27 – Grumbach)
• On party incentives:
  “If you are a politician and you’re trying to rise in the ranks...your best bet is to join the national culture war.” (06:56 – Grumbach)
• On accountability and media:
  “There’s been a huge decline in state politics journalism...voting is really detached from the performance of state legislators and governors.” (08:38 – Grumbach)
• On threats to democracy:
  “That’s the key question, David...the most serious consequence...has been threats to American democracy.” (10:03 – Grumbach)
• On Republican overreach:
  “Going too far? Absolutely has been backfiring.” (14:47 – Grumbach)

Key Segment Timestamps

• [00:11]–[02:22] – Remnick introduces the Tennessee/Montana incidents, posing the overarching question.
• [03:06]–[04:54] – Grumbach describes ALEC’s role in shaping state legislation.
• [08:38]–[09:30] – The collapse of local journalism and democratic accountability.
• [10:03]–[11:18] – Unique features of American federalism and risk of election interference.
• [13:14]–[14:20] – Discussion about the differences in partisan tactics and potential for overreach.
• [15:18]–[16:09] – Grumbach on states with “healthier” democracy and the role of labor unions.

Segment 2: Joshua Yaffa on Evan Gershkovich’s Arrest by Russia

(16:15 – 29:56)

Key Discussion Points

Arrest of Evan Gershkovich

• Background: Evan Gershkovich, Wall Street Journal reporter and friend of Yaffa, was arrested by Russia’s security agency on espionage charges—widely seen as manufactured—(17:15).
• Historical Escalation: The first imprisonment of an American journalist in Russia on spying charges since the 1980s; marks a new phase of repression for both Russian and foreign press.

Personal Connection and Life in Moscow

• Yaffa relates the tight-knit, competitive yet supportive foreign correspondent community in Moscow. He reminisces about Evan’s energy and rapid integration into Russian society thanks to family roots and language skills.
  • “He was very clear eyed...covered the story of protests in the summer of 2019...but he also found the time...to write about dying languages in remote parts of Russia.” (21:55 – Yaffa)
• On Moscow before the war:
  • “It actually had the trappings…of a fun, happening, almost European city...great bars, great parks, a food scene that was developing.” (20:17 – Yaffa)

Reporting in Increasing Danger

• Gershkovich covered both high-profile and underreported stories—protests, language loss, wildfires in Yakutia—often involving risky travel and immersive reporting.
  • “He got really visceral, important, first person journalism.” (24:08 – Yaffa)

Post-Invasion Changes & Expanding Repression

• Foreign journalists increasingly needed to leave but continued to enter Russia for reporting stints post-2022 invasion.
• Previously, the worst case for foreign journalists was expulsion; arrest and prolonged imprisonment mark a dramatic shift.
  • “There was no reason to think that foreign journalists would be targeted by Russian law enforcement…The precedent held that somehow Western reporters were safe.” (25:37 – Yaffa)

Emotional Toll on Gershkovich’s Family

• Yaffa describes the anguish and anxiety of Evan’s family, now facing the prospect of a show trial, a possible trade, and indefinite uncertainty (28:12).

Solidarity & Advocacy

• Efforts are ongoing to keep Evan’s name visible in media and government so he isn’t forgotten.
  • “All I can do…is just talk about him wherever I can…keep his name in people’s minds, in the minds of people in Washington so…hopefully in some way gets him home a little bit faster.” (29:19 – Yaffa)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On seeing Gershkovich in detention:
  “There were these pictures and video of our friend Evan in the aquarium…painful and outrageous, frankly, to see him that way.” (18:40 – Yaffa)
• On foreign correspondents’ lifestyle:
  “I was invited to a press breakfast and the hour it was called for was noon.” (21:19 – Yaffa)
• On danger and reporting ethos:
  “You have to have a specific idea of fun to think that going up in Soviet-era propeller planes flying through wildfire smoke is like a good time that you’re jealous on having missed out on.” (23:35 – Yaffa)
• On the changed rules for journalists:
  “There was no reason to think that foreign journalists would be targeted by Russian law enforcement…this clear violation of precedent, a really escalatory step…obviously contains a very strong kind of message of political intent.” (25:52 – Yaffa)
• Message to Evan:
  “I tell him how proud I am of him…how impressed, if that’s the right word, I am, in how he’s handling the situation with dignity, courage, humor, of all things.” (29:01 – Yaffa)

Key Segment Timestamps

• [16:15]–[17:15] – Introduction to Evan Gershkovich’s case.
• [18:02]–[19:17] – Yaffa describes hearing the news, the “aquarium” scene in court.
• [19:34]–[21:46] – Life as a foreign correspondent; culture and community in Moscow.
• [21:55]–[24:44] – Yaffa recounts the stories Gershkovich covered, including local nuances.
• [24:55]–[25:52] – The new danger for foreign correspondents post-invasion.
• [27:38]–[28:52] – The agony of Gershkovich’s family; their courage and dignity.
• [28:59]–[29:56] – Advocacy, solidarity, and messages sent to Evan.

Summary Flow & Tone

The conversation is urgent, thoughtful, and often personal—especially in the latter half. Remnick and his guests balance scholarly analysis with vivid personal stories, providing both historical context and present-day stakes. The tone is clear-eyed and, in moments, poignant—particularly around the family experience and camaraderie among foreign journalists.

Takeaways

• State legislatures are increasingly central to national partisan conflict, driven more by national party incentives and out-of-state money than local concerns.
• Democratic backsliding is manifest in legislative expulsions, disenfranchisement efforts, and power grabs—phenomena facilitated by weakened local media.
• Advocacy for working-class and labor issues could provide a healthier politics, moving away from culture war fixation.
• The arrest of Evan Gershkovich marks a harrowing new era for the free press in Russia, shifting the boundaries for repression and sending a chilling message.
• Solidarity and keeping public focus are vital for journalists detained in authoritarian states.

Selected Quote to Close:

“All I can do, and that’s what I’ve also told Evan in these letters, is to just talk about him wherever I can...so that everyone knows and Evan knows that, that we’re waiting for him to come home and hopefully that in some way gets him home a little bit faster.”
— Joshua Yaffa ([29:19])