High-Fashion Hijabs, Jill Soloway, and Bluesman Blind Joe Death

Summary

The New Yorker Radio Hour
Episode: High-Fashion Hijabs, Jill Soloway, and Bluesman Blind Joe Death
Date: March 17, 2017
Host: David Remnick
A co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker

---

Episode Overview

This episode brings together three distinct segments exploring artistic and cultural innovation: a candid interview with TV creator Jill Soloway about gender, feminism, and creative leadership; a profile of Nyla Limas, a designer redefining the fashion of high-style hijabs and the meaning of modesty; and an in-depth look at the life and legacy of John Fahey (aka "Blind Joe Death"), an influential yet enigmatic figure in American guitar music.

---

Segment 1: Jill Soloway – Gender, Art, and the “Female Gaze”

(00:30 – 16:40)

Main Themes:

• The personal roots and cultural impact of Transparent
• Representation of trans people in media
• Feminism, the “male gaze,” and the creation of the “female gaze”
• Leadership style and process on set

Key Discussion Points & Insights

On Creating Transparent and Its Inspiration

• Transparent is deeply personal:

  "I didn’t really have major political aspirations when I was writing. They were very personal. My parent had come out. I was very nervous. I didn’t really quite get it."
  — Jill Soloway (02:08)

• The show explores late-in-life gender transition, reflecting experiences in Soloway’s own family.

Impact of Feminism and the Male Gaze

• Soloway wrestled with expectations of femininity and feminism growing up:

  "There are so many things I want. I want power. I want to be brilliant. And then you’re being told constantly, be cute and engage the male gaze. G, A, Z, E, not G, A, Y, not gays."
  — Jill Soloway (03:45)

Media Representation & Trans Visibility

• Prior to Transparent, positive representations were rare:

  "There was Laverne Cox on Orange Is the New Black ... other than that, it was mostly victims or villains, very sensational."
  — Jill Soloway (05:42)

• Reading Whipping Girl by Julia Serano was transformative in understanding “transmisogyny.”

Controversy: Casting Jeffrey Tambor as Maura

• Soloway acknowledges criticism about casting a cis actor:

  "I take that criticism full force and absolutely, positively agree with all trans people who say that cis people should not be playing trans people. I 100% agree with that statement."
  — Jill Soloway (06:49)

• Notes context and age of the character as rationale, but sees industry changes as essential.

Discussing “I Love Dick”

• The new Amazon show adapts Chris Kraus’s novel, featuring a marriage reinvigorated (and disrupted) by attraction to a charismatic man named Dick (played by Kevin Bacon):

  "He’s the ultimate man-object ... There are so many ways in which heterosexual men allow other men’s masculinity into their relationship as a way to keep it up."
  — Jill Soloway (09:19)

• The narrative is described as transgressive and unlike typical portrayals of desire and marriage.

Soloway’s Evolving Feminism and Leadership

• Her shows are "a document of my becoming ... and everyone around me." (10:37)
• Jeff Bezos affirmed the power of storytelling over politics for cultural change:

  "Storytelling is probably one of the most effective levers I could think of that changes the world even more so than politics."
  — Jill Soloway, recalling Jeff Bezos (11:12)

Where Are We Now on Gender Progress?

"We’re absolutely moving forward ... This feeling of possibility, plus this incredible, fearful, violent fascism are both marks of the end of something ... it’s both at the same time."
— Jill Soloway (12:29)

• Soloway sees hope in the "end of a patriarchal construction" and anticipates a "matriarchal revolution."

The Female Gaze and Set Culture

(13:02–16:40)

• On leadership and collaborative sets:

  "You stand in the back of your troops and you push them forward ... working from underneath or from behind their staff."
  — Jill Soloway (13:29)

• Describes daily "box" sessions where any crew member can share, fostering emotional openness:

  "It prioritizes emotions ... We’re making a TV show about feelings ... protect feeling from the beginning of the day."
  — Jill Soloway (15:17, 16:18)

Memorable Closing Moment:

• David Remnick: "It's fascinating. I should do my job differently."
  Jill Soloway: "Okay." (16:37)

---

Segment 2: High-Fashion Hijabs – Nyla Limas Redefines Modesty

(17:18 – 30:41)

Main Themes:

• Fashion as cultural and religious expression
• Challenging stereotypes about the hijab
• “Underwraps” modeling agency for modest fashion
• The intersection of modesty, feminism, and self-determination

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Profile of Designer Nyla Limas

• Limas designs vibrant, bold hijabs inspired by African-American fabrics, taffeta, and prints.
• Hijabs are more than black headscarves: "She can whip up a hijab out of almost any sort of fabric."
  — Judith Thurman (18:10–19:38)

The Underwraps Agency & Its Mission

• Created in response to models’ discomfort with industry standards of exposure:

  "A lot of it was ones that were married or that were mothers. ... They kind of felt a little like they were compromising to be in this industry, but not comfortable with maybe what they were wearing."
  — Nyla Limas (20:24)

• Agency features strict guidelines: same-sex dressing rooms, privacy, no male stylists.
• Open to non-Muslim modest models, fostering cross-faith dialogue.

Similarities in Modest Dress Across Faiths

• Works with Orthodox Jewish models: "We have so many more similarities and differences. It works out just fine."
  — Nyla Limas (23:04)

Fashion, Identity, and Liberation

• On the stereotype of Muslim women being oppressed by modest dress:

  "She sees this actually as a ... very progressive, even radical foray into changing people's attitudes."
  — Judith Thurman (23:55)

• On color and individuality:

  "There’s no guidelines on that [color, design]. As long as your parts of your body are covered and your clothing is not skin tight."
  — Nyla Limas (25:03)

Modesty as Boundary and Consent

• The hijab as a feminist act:

  "A hijab is a refusal in some ways to objectify yourself sexually. ... It’s a boundary between you and the public ... I don’t consent to be devoured visually."
  — Judith Thurman (29:29)

---

Segment 3: Remembering John Fahey – Bluesman "Blind Joe Death"

(37:01 – 54:15)

Main Themes:

• The musical innovation and influence of John Fahey
• Americana, authenticity, and the dark side of musical genius
• Rehabilitation and legacy

Key Discussion Points & Insights

John Fahey: Early Life and Obsession with the Blues

• Fahey became an obsessive record collector and blues researcher as a teen, even rediscovering the lost bluesman Skip James.

  "Fahey sort of looked for the most obscure and the most esoteric of the blues musicians."
  — Steve Lowenthal (Commentator/Producer) (40:11)

Creation of Blind Joe Death

• Fahey invented the character "Blind Joe Death" as his alter ego:

  "I’m going to make the most extreme blues character I could think of."
  — Steve Lowenthal (41:33)

Struggles with Alcoholism and Alienation

• Terrible stage fright led to drinking; he dismissed the 60s folk scene as inauthentic.

  "To him, there’s a bunch of rich college kids ... who had never gone through any hardships themselves."
  — Steve Lowenthal (43:05)

Musical Evolution & Legacy

• Founded Takoma Records and lifted up new talent (notably Leo Kottke).
• Fahey’s later years marked by poverty, reclusion, and mental health struggles, but he found renewed cult status in the ‘90s.

Memorable Anecdote:

• On inviting Leo Kottke to stay at his place:

  "John Fahey slams the door open, puts a shotgun in his face and screams at him, I told you not to wake me up."
  — Steve Lowenthal (47:02)

Death and Reflections

• Passed away at 61, after years of personal and professional turmoil.
• Biographer Steve Lowenthal speaks about Fahey’s prophetic humor and influence:

  "John Fahey predicted my writing this book many years before I was born."
  — Steve Lowenthal (53:00)

Signature Quote on Fahey’s Music:

"The level of feeling and ennui and sadness and darkness I feel is unparalleled in American music."
— Steve Lowenthal (53:44)

---

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• "I take that criticism full force and absolutely, positively agree with all trans people who say that cis people should not be playing trans people." — Jill Soloway (06:49)
• "There are so many ways in which heterosexual men allow other men’s masculinity into their relationship as a way to keep it up." — Jill Soloway (09:19)
• "A hijab is a refusal in some ways to objectify yourself sexually... It’s a boundary between you and the public when you’re under covered." — Judith Thurman (29:29)
• "Storytelling is probably one of the most effective levers I could think of that changes the world even more so than politics." — Jill Soloway, quoting Jeff Bezos (11:12)
• "Being a mentally unstable underground icon ... for the only time I could recall in American history was a viable commercial commodity. So John Fahey all of a sudden is the right guy at the right time." — Steve Lowenthal (51:06)

---

Segment Timestamps

• Jill Soloway Interview: 00:30 – 16:40
• High-Fashion Hijabs Feature: 17:18 – 30:41
• John Fahey / Blind Joe Death Profile: 37:01 – 54:15

---

Overall Tone and Style

This episode embodies The New Yorker’s depth and curiosity: candid, at times wry, but always thoughtful—whether discussing leadership on set, reframing what it means to dress modestly, or digging into the melancholy genius of an American musical outsider.

---

For listeners interested in cultural change, artistic leadership, and stories that challenge the familiar, this episode stands out as a rich, multidimensional tapestry of voices and ideas.

Transcript

[Host/Interviewer]

Floor 38. It's very exciting to be having a.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Conversation with someone when they have that revelation.

[Host/Interviewer]

I mean, it'd be good if you.

[Commentator/Producer]

Have a source for it.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Jill Soloway]

The telegraph from one World Trade center in Manhattan. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour.

[Host/Interviewer]

A co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

[David Remnick]

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Generations of guitarists have been obsessed with the work of the late John Fahey. And later this hour, we'll learn why. And we're going to learn a thing or two about what feminists call the male gaze. My colleague Judith Thurman visits the Muslim designer of of some beautiful high fashion hijabs to talk about what it means to dress modestly in our not so modest culture. And I'm going to talk with Jill Soloway, one of the most influential directors and one of the most committed feminists working in television right now. Soloway's show Transparent debuted in 2014 starring Jeffrey Tambor as a person transitioning rather late in life to a new identity as a woman. I think it's already joined that small list of TV shows like all in the Family or Black Ish, and that capture an issue that everybody's talking about and makes it more real through fiction. Soloway's got a new show coming out on Amazon this spring, and if anything, it's even more provocative. And we'll get to that in a minute. Jill. Transparent is a phenomenon and it's brought something new into our lives, but through an old means, using comedy, family comedy, and poking at the narcissism of families. But politically, it's bringing something completely new, which is the life of a trans person who's making a transition from male to female. I wish I could start. I wish we could start by talking about the environment into which this show came, the media representation of trans people, how you saw it and what you set out to do.

[Jill Soloway]

Yeah, I didn't really have major political aspirations when I was writing. They were very personal. My parent had come out. I was very nervous. I didn't really quite get it. I was, you know, I knew younger trans people, but I didn't know people. My parents age early 70s, and I think I was writing myself into being okay with it.

[David Remnick]

Your father, you're calling your parent, but you grew up with a dad who you did not get along with particularly well, as I understand it from Mario Levy's profile of you that was in the New Yorker some time back. Yeah, it was a complicated relationship.

[Jill Soloway]

We had a complicated relationship.

[David Remnick]

Okay. Complicated always covers a huge geography.

[Jill Soloway]

Yeah.

[David Remnick]

And then you encounter a phone call that you get.

[Jill Soloway]

Yes.

[David Remnick]

And describe that and then what happened to you internally in the months to come.

[Jill Soloway]

Yeah. I think of the phone call as a huge turning point in my life, as a light going on, because I think I had really, really struggled to understand what this missing piece, not only in my family, in your memories of your childhood. And you go, I had a sense there was something else going on, and I didn't really know what it was. I think a lot of people have that. And so as you become an adult, you start to realize, oh, this was the way my mom struggled. This is the way my dad struggled. I had sort of on top of that, this, like, unavoidable, you know, constant obsession with gender my whole life, probably, you know, from the age of 15 up until, you know, when I got this phone call.

[David Remnick]

Beginning with when. What set it off?

[Jill Soloway]

I just hated, you know, a lot of. It's just feminism. Growing up in patriarchy, you have this real sense as a young woman growing up or a girl. Like, I have so many. There are so many things I want. I want power. I want to be brilliant. And then you're being told constantly, be cute and engage the male gaze. G, A, Z, E, not G, A, Y, not gaze. Yeah, I know you know, you're nodding, but I just want to make sure the listeners aren't wondering why I'm trying to engage male gaze. If I was.

[David Remnick]

We'll get to that.

[Jill Soloway]

So as I tried to really kind of become myself, I was always, you know, anything that involved being female or feminine, I did because I was identified as straight. But I always felt a lot of confusion, you know, about dressing up or makeup or high heels or sororities or things that tons of women actually feel confusion about. So I just thought, I'm a feminist warrior and worrier. And, yeah, I think when my parent came out, I went, oh, I come from a queer family. I come from a genderqueer family.

[David Remnick]

And you're. And you're how old when you get the phone call from your parent?

[Jill Soloway]

Like, I don't know, it was four years ago. 47, 46.

[David Remnick]

It's got a complete. Your head must have almost come off.

[Jill Soloway]

Yes.

[David Remnick]

Just as it does in the show. Just as you tell me this in the show.

[Jill Soloway]

Yeah, no, it was. It was illuminating. And also, I was obviously emotionally.

[David Remnick]

And it's not as simple as. Aha. Now I know everything. It's gotta be much more complicated.

[Jill Soloway]

I think it's. Now I know why I never understood anything, and I think I'm still in the process of understanding all of the versions of having a trans parent.

[David Remnick]

Were there writers? Were there presentations of either feminism or trans people in the arts, in film, in books that helped you get to the point where you were able to write Transparent?

[Jill Soloway]

Well, there was Liver and Cox on Orange Is the New Black. And there weren't a lot of other sort of regular positive experiences of just trans people living their lives.

[David Remnick]

It's usually as victims on crime shows.

[Jill Soloway]

Victims or villains.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Jill Soloway]

And then, you know, talk shows and this kind of very sensational kind of circus feeling around transness. There's a book called Whipping Girl by Julia Serrano, which totally changed my life. And my thinking really just kind of zeroing in on trans misogyny. And that really kind of helped me to understand something I knew a lot about, which was misogyny and being able to connect it to trans women. And in particular, people from my parents generation who might be a little bit older, who might not, quote, unquote, be passing as easily, who might be the brunt of a lot of anger in society or people yelling things on the street. And it just kind of really helped me to understand how everything fit together.

[David Remnick]

You got a little bit of criticism that you have Jeffrey Tambor playing this role instead of a trans actor, but how do you react to that criticism?

[Jill Soloway]

Yeah, I mean, sort of my headline is I take that criticism full force and absolutely, positively agree with all trans people who say that cis people should not be playing trans people. I 100% agree with that statement.

[David Remnick]

Is it understood as a kind of the equivalent of blackface, or.

[Jill Soloway]

Yes, it's considered trans face. All of my trans friends are rightfully really angry. And I do kind of agree that four years after Transparent, or three years after Transparent, in many ways, we as a culture should know better. There have been some amazing defenses of Transparent out there that I really appreciate. One is that Maura was transitioning a late age, and this is really the best way to show somebody who went all the way up to the age of 70 presenting male.

[David Remnick]

Jill, I also want to talk to you about your new show, also on Amazon, called I Love Dick, based on a book of the same wonderful title. This is a story about a couple married for what seems like a very long time, maybe erotically bored with each other, and they go from their house in New York City on a creative adventure to Marfa, Texas, which I think may be the second great stronghold of hipsterism in America. What drew you to that story?

[Jill Soloway]

Well, I loved the book. I couldn't believe that Chris Krause existed and somehow she had been kept from us. In particular, though, I think this triangle where here's a couple, Chris and Silvere, who haven't had sex in a while and who, you know, have a real intellectual connection, but the physical is no longer really working. And they meet a guy, the writing instructor. Yes. Aptly named Dick. And suddenly they have a new Dick in their marriage.

[Host/Interviewer]

Love that you just go by Dick because usually someone would, you know, if.

[Commentator/Producer]

One is born a richer, they would.

[Host/Interviewer]

Rich Rick, Richie, Ricky.

[Narrator/Reporter]

There's so many.

[Host/Interviewer]

Just Dick. Yes. Is it possible that I saw you on a horse yesterday? Yeah.

[Nick Thompson]

I have a ranch just outside of town.

[Host/Interviewer]

Oh, how big? Curious. You want to know how big my ranches.

[David Remnick]

Dick is played, I should say by Kevin Bacon with the steeliest of blue eyes and even. And every wrinkle exquisite in his neck and face. It's just. It's like Richard Ford come to life on the screen.

[Jill Soloway]

Yeah. I mean, he's the sort of ultimate man object. And Dick is performing masculinity hard. And he's doing it to. Yeah, he's doing it because he's worshiped for that masculinity. And I just love watching this marriage attempt to. First they see him and then they try to use him, and then they, you know, they have him in their minds. And to me, I feel like I've never seen this story before. I've never. I've never seen, you know, the story you think is that the woman's gonna have the affair. But in this story, Silvere goes, let's keep talking about this. I'm in. Let's keep talking about Dick. And that is so transgressive to me and so un. Heterosexual American male, but yet so incredibly common. There are so many ways in which heterosexual men allow other men's masculinity into their relationship as a way to keep it up.

[David Remnick]

Yeah.

[Jill Soloway]

Maybe porn, maybe patriarchy. There are ways in which men depend on other men to be a man. And I love the way that this story takes that and makes it really personal.

[David Remnick]

And do you feel that you've said what you're gonna say about. I don't think. I can't imagine it is about feminism with these shows, or is this gonna remain your theme or generalized theme for years to come? And what plans do you have?

[Jill Soloway]

Yeah, I think the shows are a document of my becoming as cheesy as that sounds. I sound like Tammy. She had like a. I am becoming so awful.

[David Remnick]

Yeah.

[Jill Soloway]

And it's a document of all of becoming, you know, everybody in my family and the people in the writers room and the people on the set. And I was having a conversation with Jeff Bezos at the Golden Globes. He was sitting next to me at the table.

[David Remnick]

Because Transparent is produced by Amazon.

[Jill Soloway]

Yes. And I said, I gotta use this time wisely. I'm gonna ask him some important questions. And I said, you know, he wanted.

[David Remnick]

A discount on books.

[Jill Soloway]

Exactly. I said, sometimes I get really distracted from TV making because I really get excited about the idea of movements and changing the world and feminism. And he said, you know, storytelling is probably one of the most effective levers I could think of that changes the world even more so than politics. And, yeah, that kind of calmed me down and said, okay, I am doing it. You know, I think as a kid, I was so like, okay, I have to. You know, my mom was involved in the women's movement and the civil rights movement was going on. You know, I was growing up in the 70s Chicago in an integrated neighborhood in the middle of the city, and it was all about ERA and the Black Panthers, and I really wanted to be part of a movement, and he made me realize that I am part of it, and I'm doing so through storytelling.

[David Remnick]

Right now you have awareness of gay and lesbian issues that is far greater than it's ever been before, even, to some extent, trans issues. When you look at the American scene, when it comes to the issues that you are most passionate about, when it comes to gender issues, where are we and where do you expect to see us in a short period of time down the road, does it seem like forward progress or is it that dark?

[Jill Soloway]

Well, we're absolutely moving forward. And this feeling of possibility, plus this incredible, fearful, violent fascism are both marks of the end of something. When you say, is it getting better or getting worse? It's both at the same time.

[David Remnick]

It's the end of a patriarchal construction, is what you're saying.

[Jill Soloway]

That's the plan. Can you help me with this matriarchal revolution imminent? Yes, that is coming. The question is, will it happen soon?

[David Remnick]

You also use a phrase that has been around for a while. The female gaze. The male gaze and the female gaze.

[Jill Soloway]

Yeah. G, A, Z, E. G, A, Z.

[Commentator/Producer]

E. I got it.

[David Remnick]

And I want to get a sense of the way that works in practical terms, where you work in terms of writers and producers and people doing lighting, how you work Jill Soloway, as opposed to the way generations of male directors and producers in television and film have worked what's different?

[Jill Soloway]

Yeah, I bring sort of, you know, whether or not it's the female gaze or feminine style of leadership, meaning that you stand in the back of your troops and you push them forward. I'm definitely not inventing this. This is, you know, when a lot of people are talking about management right now, they talk about, you know, working from underneath or from behind their staff. And I think it's a really common sense way of, you know, being lazy. Actually. I love to come to work and have the attitude of I don't know the answer. Let's ask the production designer. I have no idea. What do you think? You know, to ask people what they think actually allows me to come to work and kind of just be a leader rather than micromanage everyone.

[David Remnick]

So less Napoleonic.

[Jill Soloway]

Yes. And what happens on the set? You know, we just kind of connect over the feeling that we can't believe that we get to do this for a living. We do this thing called box, where we waste a ton of time standing in a circle talking about how we're doing. We waste like a half an hour every day.

[David Remnick]

So describe what that discussion is like.

[Jill Soloway]

So, you know, it's call time. It's 8:30. It's time for the first rehearsal. So if you were on a normal set, it would be time to go to the set and rehearse. But instead, the AD kind of starts clapping a little slowly, and then the clap kind of moves throughout the stage, and we all just kind of start to murmur, box, box, box, box, box, box, box, box. And then we all kind of move into a circle. Sounds really culty, right?

[David Remnick]

A little bit.

[Jill Soloway]

But it has a purpose. So we move into a circle, and so whoever wants to gets up on the box and they just speak for a minute.

[David Remnick]

And it's non hierarchical.

[Jill Soloway]

Yes. Could be anybody.

[David Remnick]

Okay.

[Jill Soloway]

From craft service to, you know, the executive from Amazon. And they just speak for a minute or two and they say, this is about what however they're feeling that morning. You know, I had a really rough weekend because this happened. And, you know, my mom is ill and I was, you know, I spent all weekend in the hospital. It feels really good to be here.

[David Remnick]

Okay. Half the audience is applauding this and half the audience is rolling their eyes. Why is it effective? What does it bring to that?

[Jill Soloway]

Okay, so it brings the fact that we actually spend the day working faster because we're all emotionally connected. We all kind of heart connect early in the day. So we actually are able to then just jump into the sense of a really quick Moving machine.

[David Remnick]

Was anybody not with the program? And so I.

[Jill Soloway]

They probably are. I don't hear about them.

[David Remnick]

But nobody walked.

[Jill Soloway]

No. We do it all the time, now and then. What else? It prioritizes emotions. We're making a TV show about feelings. So I think a lot of times when there's a sort of masculine or patriarchal set, a lot of people are spending a lot of energy trying to come back from the ways in which they cut the energy by going, you know, we're in a hurry. We're running out of time. We're running out of light. Prioritize the equipment. Hurry, hurry, hurry. Schedule, schedule, schedule. Yelling, Quiet.

[Host/Interviewer]

And action.

[Jill Soloway]

And now the camera is rolling, and we're looking at two people who are attempting to portray feeling. So all we do by some of these methods is just protect feeling from the beginning of the day. We don't have to figure out how to bring it back. We're just spending the whole day being and feeling.

[David Remnick]

It's fascinating. I should do my job differently.

[Jill Soloway]

Okay.

[Commentator/Producer]

Yeah, exactly.

[David Remnick]

Thanks so much for coming.

[Jill Soloway]

Thank you so much for having me.

[David Remnick]

Jill Soloway, the creator of Transparent, I spoke with her last fall just after the first episode of I Love Dick premiered. Amazon is releasing the entire season this May ahead this hour. Your 2pm meeting looks like it's shaping up to be a little bit more interesting than usual.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Commentator/Producer]

I haven't understood a single thing anyone said to me in three years.

[Host/Interviewer]

Have you guys ever heard me crying in the bathroom?

[Narrator/Reporter]

I have.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yes. It's really loud. I wasn't sure how thick the walls are. I don't know what our company does. We make software.

[Jill Soloway]

I knew what you.

[Host/Interviewer]

Oh.

[David Remnick]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Welcome back. Some months ago, the New Yorker's Judah Thurman wrote about a fashion designer named Nyla Limas. Now, Limas has a particular specialty. She designs hijabs. And they're not what you might imagine. They're bright and they're bold and full of color and pattern, and they're pretty stunning. You can see some photos of them on newyorkerradio.org Limas is also a model, and she talked with Judith Thurman about the unusual modeling agency that she's founded, and she calls it under wraps.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Beautiful. On a very hot Saturday in August, I went downtown to lower Manhattan to a photography studio where the temperature was about 42 degrees. And I watched a photo shoot on which the two models, two very beautiful young women, were. Hijabis they were modeling hijabs that one of the models, Naila Limas, had designed. Normally, we associate the hijab with a black headscarf, but it doesn't have to be. And Naila, partly because she's so exuberant herself, and as she says, my taste runs to jazzy. She loves vibrant color. She loves African American fabric. She loves prints, she loves glitter. So her hijabs are very, very fanciful. And they're sort of a cross between an Easter bonnet and, you know, one of the great Easter bonnets you especially see in African American neighborhoods or that you see at the races at Ascot. She loves leopard skin. She loves taffeta. She loves West African prints. She can whip up a hijab out of almost any sort of fabric. It seems to need some body for the turbans and for the ziggurats. You know, there's some wonderful ziggurat shaped hijabs. You pin them in place. It's not like you go to a hat shop and you buy a hat and you plop it on your head.

[Host/Interviewer]

Take a break. Two seconds.

[Commentator/Producer]

Right, the ice.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yes. Okay.

[Narrator/Reporter]

After the shoot, I sat down with Naila in a quiet corner to talk about the shoot, to talk about her work as a designer, and to talk about the agency. Were you born into a Muslim family or did you make the decision to convert yourself?

[Host/Interviewer]

I was born into a Muslim family, and in all actuality, I was the only born Muslim sibling. My mother, my father, and my sisters converted to the religion as a family. So I was the last born. So I was born into the religion.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Let's talk about the agency. Were you doing something before you started this? Did you have another kind of job? How did you found the agency and when did that happen?

[Host/Interviewer]

I was working prior to the agency as a clothing designer, which I still have a clothing line, and as a wardrobe stylist. And in working with that company, I just met a lot of models. And these are all industry high paid models that had body complexes and really weren't really happy with themselves and what they were doing. And a lot of it was ones that were married or that were mothers. And they kind of felt a little like they were compromising to be in this industry, but not comfortable with maybe what they were wearing. Like, as a mom, I don't really want to wear, like, the string bikinis, but my agent says I have to, you know, in order to make my money, because this is what I do as a career. And I just felt like that was unfortunate.

[Narrator/Reporter]

So three or Four years ago, she had the idea of starting an agency for modest and Muslim models. And she called it under wraps because to some degree, but not to an extreme degree, the women are under wraps. Her guidelines for the clients who hire the models are that they have to have same sex dressing room, they have to have a full length robe in the dressing room, and that no male stylists or makeup people or hair people or crew members will intrude on their privacy or touch them. So this was a very daring and for New York anyway, for the United States, an apparently unique idea. A Muslim modeling agency. You have about eight women, eight models working for you. Tell me about them. They're not all Muslim.

[Host/Interviewer]

They're not all Muslim? No. I have five Muslim models and I have three non Muslim models. What's unique about the agency, as far as the mix of the Muslim models and what I call my modest models, which aren't Muslim, but we all have the same concept, just various levels of modesty, is how we all interact with each other. It becomes like a learning of religions and faiths and like a melting pot where it's easy conversation, where a lot of times when you're discussing different religions, sometimes it can turn into like a battleground. You're like, what's going on? But because the commonality is that they're all models, we can like easily have these dialogues.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Do you ever work with Orthodox Jewish?

[Host/Interviewer]

I actually have a Jewish model. She's. We work, we work on and off. A lot of her scheduling is tight and definitely on Saturdays, you know, she's not working, so. But we're so similar.

[Narrator/Reporter]

No, I'm saying it's more similar than not more similar.

[Host/Interviewer]

Oh, yes, yes, I agree completely. Yeah, exactly. The dress is like so, so similar. I mean, except for, I mean, a little bit of the skin, bottom of the leg, you know, but the skirts have to be really long, the arms are covered. Right.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The hair has to be covered.

[Host/Interviewer]

Exactly. Ex. And that's a story in itself because you have a Muslim woman who's representing a Jewish model and that becomes like, well, how does that work? But it's like we have so many more similarities and differences. It works out just fine.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Do they all experience or have they all, as models experienced sort of a sense of conflict with the demands to expose their bodies? Do they have ambivalence about self exposure? Because if you are a model, you are exposing yourself and you're exposing yourself, your beauty, you're selling your beauty.

[Host/Interviewer]

I haven't really heard that from my Muslim models because they joined the agency with that particular mindset. So they never really conflicted in that way. Now, as far as my three non Muslim models, they feel like this is more of a home for them where they don't feel like they're settling to be, you know, to be a model.

[Narrator/Reporter]

I raised this paradox with Naila herself. I said modeling is about arousing desire. How do you reconcile the notion of basically positioning yourself as an object of temptation, which is what you are, with the notion of the Islamic notion of guarding its daughters from being objects of temptation? And she said no. She seemed to feel that, on the contrary, this would help to dispel stereotypes that non Muslims have about covering and about who and what Muslim women and girls can be. So she sees this actually as a sort of. As. Not in any way as regressive, but as a very progressive, even radical foray into changing people's attitudes. I'm very interested in the notion of color because I think for many non Muslim people, we associate Islamic dress for women with black or the blue of the burqa. How does it work with color? Where does the other subcultures in which the dress is very bright?

[Host/Interviewer]

You know, naturally, culture and tradition kind of plays a role into any religion that you practice. So even though they're Muslim by faith, you know, they're Muslim, but they're Malaysian or Muslim, but Jordanian. So they're gonna pick up some of those style stylistic ways of just where they're from and incorporate that into. Okay, well, Islamically, I need to be mod, but I still want to embrace bold, exciting jewels, crystals, you know, and you can do that Islamically, there's no guidelines on that. There's no guidelines? No, there's no guidelines on that. As long as your parts of your body are covered and your clothing is not skin tight.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Okay, I wanted to ask you about that. So explain that to us, because some of the clothes that you've designed that women have modeled, there's no flesh showing, there's no skin showing. Yeah, but they have a fit they're definitely for.

[Host/Interviewer]

Well, my design aesthetic is a little more kind of fit flair. Sometimes it'll be tube or like strapless dresses, which would be more fitted in the bust area and then flow out empire waist down.

[Narrator/Reporter]

But is strapless okay?

[Host/Interviewer]

Strapless is not okay for a Muslim woman to wear just as a strapless dress. Right now we can wear a strapless dress, but we'll either. Right, we might wear. Might wear a shirt under it, long sleeve shirt, or you might wear like a blazer over it or a cami or something of that nature that gives you sleeves. So in the Quran, when it speaks to our guidelines of how we dress, it doesn't say black, it doesn't say colors, it just says what we need to cover and how we need to carry ourselves. Now how you interpret that is, you know, that's up to anyone. When you practice your religion, you read and you interpret what's comfortable for you.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Well, there's a stereotype about submission and obedience.

[Host/Interviewer]

Well, yeah, that's true. And I think that garment that they show so often, to kind of drill it in your mind, what makes you think that way as well?

[Narrator/Reporter]

Yeah, the weekend that I went to the shoot, it was a torrid weekend. And it was torrid everywhere. It was very torrid in the south of France, where in the past month there's been a tremendous controversy about the banning of the burkini. Burkini is a garment that was invented fairly recently. It's a suit of neck to ankle covering that allows modest Muslim women to go into the water on the beach, which is a sort of jokey word. It comes from burqa. It's not at all. Doesn't look like a burqa, but it's burka and bikini. So the French were reacting to of course, many things. The recent terrible acts of terrorism and the influxes of refugees, anti French sentiment in Muslim neighborhoods. So they passed a bikini ban. You could appear topless, you could appear in a micro string bikini, but not covered. And so while we were in the photo studio, women were being forced to disrobe, forced to take off their bikinis in some pretty horrific images on the beaches of France. So I think though that some of the reaction that people have is that these women are being oppressed by the obligation to wear these clothes. And it's true that in the summer you see somebody head to toe black on a 95 degree day. You have to wonder if it isn't oppressive. But then you have to remind yourself that they have made this choice and it is a free country.

[Jill Soloway]

From my.

[Host/Interviewer]

Angle and what I wanted to accomplish, especially with breaking down the stereotypes and keeping and maintaining your modesty or like your feminine hood and your womanness. And I feel like we've kind of, we've lost a sense of that somewhere. I don't know when. Cause in like 40s, 50s, 60s, I mean all women were kind of dressing modest. I mean they had their poodle skirts and their fitted shirts, but it was like not skin out. 1968, Plungey was at it.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Was that like, actually, you know. You know what it was? It was earlier. It was the year they invented pantyhose.

[Host/Interviewer]

Oh.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Because you could then wear short skirts. You couldn't before because women had garters. And unless you were gonna go looking.

[Host/Interviewer]

Like a hooker, you could walk out.

[Narrator/Reporter]

But then suddenly they were. That was the lead into the mini skirt. That was one of them. That was one of the technological steps, too.

[Host/Interviewer]

That's one that took us in the route. Now it's party dresses on a Tuesday. I'm like, why are you going grocery shopping with that on? Gosh.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Boundaries are a feminist issue. So in that sense, I think you could say a hijab is a refusal in some ways to objectify yourself sexually. A refusal to court desire from strange eyes. It's a boundary between you and the public when you're under covered and walking down the street. Let's say you're a young and attractive person. You're sort of a morsel that's out there for to be devoured visually. Right. Covering is a way of saying, no, I don't consent. I don't consent to be devoured visually. I don't consent to be looked at with lust. I don't consent. It's a question of consensual participation in the public sphere. In that sense, it seems to be in line with many of the sexual guidelines that have been passed in universities about what constitutes appropriate sexual contact. Making sure that everybody is in agreement. These are my boundaries. These are my boundaries for being looked at. These are my boundaries for keeping my body private.

[David Remnick]

Judith Thurman, a staff writer at the New Yorker. She spoke with designer and model Nyla Limas. And you can see some of those jobs that they were talking [e-mail] and now, time for your next meeting.

[Host/Interviewer]

So that's the proposed marketing plan for next year. I want to give everyone a chance to chime in with feedback before we.

[Commentator/Producer]

Move on to next steps.

[Host/Interviewer]

Amy, you want to kick things off? Sure. Tom. First of all, thanks for sharing this with us. I know how much work has gone.

[Jill Soloway]

Into this deck, and I found it incredibly helpful.

[Host/Interviewer]

Very helpful. It's such a great deck. The diagram toward the end really crystallized the breadth of our strategic opportunities. Oh, yeah. For me too. Agreed. Excellent. That's great to hear, everyone. I've made terrible career decisions. What? What?

[Narrator/Reporter]

What did you just say?

[Host/Interviewer]

Just that it's great to hear you guys like the marketing plan.

[Jill Soloway]

Oh, sorry. I just thought you said something else.

[Host/Interviewer]

Nope.

[Jill Soloway]

Okay. Well, in terms of feedback, my Main.

[Host/Interviewer]

Concern would be making sure that all.

[Jill Soloway]

Of our objectives are actionable from a budgetary standpoint.

[Host/Interviewer]

I really dread seeing each of you every day. Oh, it's funny, Amy. I was actually going to say the same thing, but also add that we want to avoid a situation where we're allocating valuable resources to the wrong brand pillars. I can't feel my face when I say things like that. Really good points, you guys. I'm gonna add those to the deck. Great. Sorry. Isn't it also about aligning with our.

[David Remnick]

Product team to better define our brand pillars first? I've snorted oxycontin twice during this meeting.

[Jill Soloway]

Yeah, we should absolutely set up a meeting with the product team to lube them into this. That is a great idea.

[Host/Interviewer]

I'm so high right now. Yeah, agreed. The brand pillars have been a bit of a moving target. We can't expect consumers to know who we are if we don't even know. I urinate in my fern a lot. Yeah, I licked the bagels before I brought them in. Right. Let's not forget the important role that the competitive landscape plan in that discussion, though, because if we aren't careful, the.

[Jill Soloway]

Marketplace will define us instead of the other way around. My pantsuit is on backwards.

[Host/Interviewer]

Oh, and the cream cheese knife. I licked that, too. Yeah.

[Commentator/Producer]

I haven't understood a single thing anyone said to me in three years.

[Host/Interviewer]

Have you guys ever heard me crying in the bathroom?

[Jill Soloway]

I have.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yes. It's really loud. I wasn't sure how thick the walls are. I don't know what our company does.

[Jill Soloway]

We make software. I knew what you call it.

[Host/Interviewer]

Oh. When I was a little girl, I used to ride horses. That sounds nice.

[Jill Soloway]

I haven't menstruated since I started working here.

[Commentator/Producer]

Sometimes I think I'm smiling, but actually I'm frowning.

[Host/Interviewer]

You're smiling now. Am I? No, not really. I have nightmares where I live here. Like, right here in this conference room. My bed's right over there. In my nightmares, it's late.

[Commentator/Producer]

I'm at my desk, and the cleaning lady's coming through with her vacuum.

[Host/Interviewer]

And when I get a good look.

[Commentator/Producer]

At her face, I see that she's actually me.

[Host/Interviewer]

Cool.

[Commentator/Producer]

And then she stabs me with her mop.

[Host/Interviewer]

Can you stab someone with a mop? Sure. Can I keep having this dream where I'm giving birth to our CEO? Fully grown suit, beard, the whole shebang. Then he tries to get up, but his legs buckle like a gooey newborn foals. Cool. So gooey it takes me two hours.

[Jill Soloway]

To get here every day.

[Host/Interviewer]

And then two hours to get home. That's four hours a day. A third of my waking life. I flipped over the vending machine last week.

[Commentator/Producer]

Now the Three Musketeers don't get stuck anymore.

[Host/Interviewer]

I spend quite a lot of time in the supply closet making sticky note people. There are hundreds of them now. Soon they will rise and take back what is rightfully theirs. That is so weird.

[Commentator/Producer]

I masturbate in this. That supply class.

[Host/Interviewer]

I know. Me too. I'm riding a horse right now. Whoa. Are you guys hot? I'm so hot right now.

[Jill Soloway]

Crazy hot.

[Host/Interviewer]

I'm so hot. I gotta take my clothes off. Y' all should. Let's all do it. I'm gonna put a bagel under each armpit and see if it feels funny. I bet it will. Wow. Yeah, it does. Hey, Eric. You know what? I don't like the way you're looking at me.

[David Remnick]

Me?

[Host/Interviewer]

You see another Eric in here? I thought this day would never come. Give me your shirt. I have a light on corral with a torch. Fire. Brace your face. Finish him. Wait, wait. Stop. Stop. What is he? Do you feel that? The reins of Alberon are upon us. Just as it was written. As it was destined. Quickly, everyone on my horse. There isn't much time. Where are we going? To the castle. Yah. To the castle to kill the queen. Kill her? How far will our journey take us? A fortnight, perhaps. But I must warn you, we will pass through the forest of Ranuk. Many have died there. Surely there's another way. I'm leery of speaking of it, but there is one. We may summon Xor and the Dark Prince of the North. But black magic comes with a price. A costly one. These both sound like terrible options. Get out. It's too late. I hear the footsteps of the Queen's guard approaching. Quickly. Build cover. Yes, yes. Build cover. There's still hope for us. No. It's too late for lyrics. Eric. Yes. No.

[Commentator/Producer]

No.

[Jill Soloway]

Hey.

[Host/Interviewer]

Sorry, but this room is booked at 3. Are you guys about finished? Why are the sprinklers going off? What happened to the table and the chairs and your clothes? Did you mean the 3:00pm Salesforce meeting?

[Narrator/Reporter]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

Oh, I'm actually in that one. Me too. Should be good. I heard the Q4 projections are finally in.

[Jill Soloway]

About time, right?

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. That'll really help inform a lot of the things that we talked about here. Absolutely. A good meeting, everybody. Really good meeting. Really good meeting.

[David Remnick]

Whoa, whoa. How about we take a minute to recover from that one? That was good meeting. Written by Colin Nissen it was performed by Scott Adsett, Laura Gray, Ed Herpsman, Tammy Sager and April Mathis, and produced for us by the podcast the Truth. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. More to this is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Nick Thompson was, until very recently, my colleague at the New Yorker and the editor of newyorker.com now he's the editor of Wired magazine. So, Nick, you're very much a tech guy, but you also play guitar pretty seriously. And there you're kind of low tech. Talk about that.

[Nick Thompson]

That's funny, I hadn't thought about that. Contrast. Yeah, when I play guitar, I just play acoustic guitar, not electric. And I use my fingers, I don't use a pick. So it's the. The most organic way you can play guitar. And it's not intentional or it's not deliberate. It's just the way it happened. It turns out that's the form I can play well.

[David Remnick]

So who's in the category of people who are low tech and that you idolize as guitar players?

[Nick Thompson]

You know, it started out as a lot of people who play the kind of music I do with a guy named Leo Kotke and then other players at the time. Michael Hedges, Seth Austin were important influences. I liked William Ackerman a lot, and then I discovered John Fahey along the way, and that was transformative.

[David Remnick]

So I don't want to reveal any secrets here, but you keep a guitar in your office and you keep it sadly tuned to some crazy opening tuning. Open tuning. So I can't play it all that well. Did you just hate rock guitar and immediately went to this?

[Host/Interviewer]

No.

[Nick Thompson]

My first music experience was in a Guns N Roses cover band actually in high school. I just wasn't good at it. And then I discovered fingerstyle guitar, and I was much better at playing that kind of music.

[David Remnick]

Explain what that is.

[Nick Thompson]

Fingerstyle guitar, it's not just not using a pick and you're not playing chords, you're not singing, you're just making instrumental music. Often with open tunings. There's often a lot of harmonies in the background, there are often notes droning, and it has a fairly distinctive sound.

[David Remnick]

So you spent this summer poring over a biography of John Fahey?

[Nick Thompson]

Yeah, the book is called Dance of Death, and I really enjoyed it. So after finishing it, I sent the author, Steve Lowenthal, a note and I went up to his apartment where he has an incredible collection of Fahey Records, all LPs, of course, and we sat down and listened to a few of them and talked about them.

[Commentator/Producer]

John Fahey was one of the sort of original record collectors in a lot of ways. He would drive down to the Deep south, and this was during the late 50s. He would literally go knocking on doors, asking people if they had any old records they wanted to get rid of.

[Nick Thompson]

And this is when he's what, 19 years old?

[Commentator/Producer]

He's just a teenager. Absolutely. 17, 18. He did this all through his early 20s.

[Nick Thompson]

And he finds some incredible stuff.

[Commentator/Producer]

Right. He found recordings that literally had been uncatalogued and no one had ever heard before.

[Nick Thompson]

Who is somebody? He found Skip James. Right. He found Skip James in a hospital, Right?

[Commentator/Producer]

Indeed.

[Nick Thompson]

Let's put on Skip James.

[Host/Interviewer]

Sure.

[Commentator/Producer]

He found Skip James. Yeah, Bo Literally suffering from testicular cancer in a hospital. And John was so excited because Skip James had this deep, dark guitar tuning that John was just infatuated with. And he really wanted the secret to Skip James guitar sound.

[Nick Thompson]

And Skip James had been sort of forgotten. He hadn't recorded in a long time.

[Commentator/Producer]

And he wasn't a popular artist to begin with. I mean, his recordings were obscure at their time. But, you know, Fahey sort of looked for the most obscure and the most esoteric of the blues musicians.

[Nick Thompson]

Why, at 18, 19 years old, is John Fahey from Takoma Park, Maryland? Why does he do this? Is it the adventure? Is it the romanticism? Is it?

[Commentator/Producer]

You have to understand, there wasn't any music that spoke to him in the way that this old blues music did. The popular music of his time was, you know, Rosemary Clooney in sort of this genteel, sort of, you know, suburban, sort of 1950s pop music. And he was a really unhappy kid growing up. He was dealing with a lot of issues at home. And there wasn't any rebellious music that spoke to sort of the darkness and ennui. That the blues to John offered him really, a window into his own dysfunction.

[Nick Thompson]

Fahey comes back from the south and he starts to record his own music. Let's listen to a little bit of his first album. It's called the Legend of Blind Go Death.

[Commentator/Producer]

You know, John wanted to make sort of, you know, his take on a blues record. But he's not from the Deep south and he's never, you know, he didn't have the blues in the classic sense. So he creates this fictional alias, Blind Joe Death, which is sort of his, you know, goof on sort of the legends and the myths that all these writers make of these old blues guys. So his idea was like, I'm going to make the most Extreme blues character I could think of. And Blind Joe Death was sort of his approach. The further he moved away from the blues and the more sort of, you know, avant garde and classical elements he would bring into the picture. The music sort of got a little stranger, it got elongated.

[Nick Thompson]

So tell me one of your favorite strange tracks from this period.

[Commentator/Producer]

Oh sure. This track I'm going to play is from John Fahey, Volume 4. It's called Sail Away Ladies.

[Nick Thompson]

So when did drinking become a serious problem for Fahey?

[Commentator/Producer]

Right around when he started performing. He had terrible stage fright and he hated getting in front of audiences. But I think John was insecure about his abilities as a guitar player, you know, next to some of the more flashy, technically precise people in the folk scene. So he would just get obliteratedly drunk in order to deal with it. Once he started doing that, he started getting obliteratedly drunk to deal with all of his problems. So he decides to get his master's in folk music, which was a new program at ucla. He moved to west coast really for his academic studies. And you know, the folk scene there was really in full swing. And he didn't really have any use for the 60s folk scene. What he was trying to do is sort of this hybridized modern classical, contemporary like Death Chants, which is sort of like the exact opposite of this Peace Love sort of of pre hippie movement. To him. There's a bunch of rich college kids sitting around talking about civil rights who had never gone through any hardships themselves. So he felt that it was inauthentic and it was bs. I mean he wasn't interested in it.

[Nick Thompson]

At some point here in the mid to late 60s, he decides he's actually gonna make some money doing a Christmas record. Tell me about this.

[Commentator/Producer]

He did. I mean that was his thing. He was in a record store during Christmas season and he saw this guy opening up a box of Bing Crosby white Christmas records. And he asked the guy about it and the guy's like, yeah, we sell a box of these every year. And he said that's a great idea. And so he made a Christmas record and there was actually a market for, you know, acoustic instrumental versions of Christmas songs. And it became his best selling record.

[Nick Thompson]

I've got to admit, I've listened to a lot of John Fahey in my life. I have never listened to his Christmas music. So let's, let's hear something.

[Commentator/Producer]

Sure.

[Nick Thompson]

That's actually pretty good. Alright, maybe I'll listen to this record in full when I get home. Alright, so during this period, 1967 and 1969. He's recording an album every 15 minutes.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Nick Thompson]

He also starts a label, Tacoma, and he finds a young musician named Leo Cocky. Let's put on leo Cocky's record, 6 and 12 string guitar. I just love this record so much. Listen to it a thousand times.

[Commentator/Producer]

Leo Kaki was, in a lot of ways, everything John Fahey was. He was young, personable, an amazing technical guitar player. Lightning fast in some ways, to John's credit, that he could recognize sort of the potential of someone like Leo Khaki.

[Nick Thompson]

I mean, this is an album that every guitarist has listened to. So how important was Fahey to the recording of this album? 6 and 12 string guitar.

[Commentator/Producer]

Hugely important. Leo sent in his demos and asked, you know, what he should do and if he should sing and whatnot. And John said, no, just do, you know, acoustic guitar. Just do an instrumental record. John heard the potential of what Leo had and, you know, Leo Cocky delivered a tour de force guitar record that changed the nature of acoustic guitar music. Leo's from the Midwest, this young guy, and John invites him to stay with him in California. And he goes to John's place and John puts him out on the couch and says, listen, whatever you do, don't wake me up. So a couple hours later, Leo's just sitting there, just watching tv, minding his own business or something, and John Fahey slams the door open, puts a shotgun in his face and screams at him, I told you not to wake me up. How dare you wake me up. And Leo is terrified and perhaps lacking a certain amount of common sense, he did not flee, but he stuck around. And he said afterwards, Leo said if he survived that first night, then he figured nothing worse would probably happen to him.

[Nick Thompson]

So after this, after Kottke, Fahey's music evolves a little bit more and he puts forward. I think my favorite album is FairForward Voyagers. I know I'm in a minority opinion on that among John Fahey fans.

[Commentator/Producer]

There's a lot of people that think so.

[Nick Thompson]

And he puts out America, which I think a lot of people think is his best. Why don't we listen to America?

[Jill Soloway]

Sure.

[Commentator/Producer]

Both America and Fair Forward Voyagers are that find John at the height of his powers as a guitar player and as a composer. I think it's the furthest away from the blues and it's the most unique in his catalog in terms of just straight guitar playing. And it's the most Fahey esque.

[Host/Interviewer]

Sam.

[Commentator/Producer]

So he's a pretty bitter, unhappy guy. You know, he hates the whole New Age thing. He hates playing with all those people, and yet that's his livelihood, and he absolutely resents it. He moves out of LA in the 80s. He moves up to Oregon. He's kind of out of the music scene and gets increasingly angry and hostile and difficult and sort of devolved so much that he didn't really want to be part of society anymore. And he sort of moved into a cheap weekly motel and just covered himself in pizza boxes and garbage and lived basically like a crazy person.

[Nick Thompson]

All right, so he's living in pizza boxes, in cheap motels, in shelters, and he kind of gets rediscovered in 1994. Tell me that story.

[Commentator/Producer]

There's this guy, Byron Coley, who's a music writer. You know, he's had this idea to write this story about John Fahey. So he pitched it to Spin magazine. You know, they flew him out to Oregon to do an interview with John Fahey. And Byron tracked him down at some motel and knocks on the door. And John opens up the door in total squalor with his robe hanging open, naked underneath, asking who he was. And Byron told him who he was. And John said, come back some other time. Byron comes back the next day and he goes, you know, what do you want to do? And Byron's like, oh, yesterday I just went around to record stores. And John goes, oh, you didn't tell me you were going to record stores. That sounds great.

[Host/Interviewer]

Let's go.

[Commentator/Producer]

And so Byron's like, all right, let's go to every record store in Oregon.

[Nick Thompson]

So this article in Spin comes out, and then Fahey's life changes. For the last few years of his life, he's actually. He's kind of back on the scene.

[Commentator/Producer]

It's a really interesting time, the mid-90s. So, like, it's 1994. Kurt Cobain's accepting an MTV Music Award wearing a Daniel Johnston T shirt. Daniel Johnson was a schizophrenic who made home recorded cassette tapes of his songs. Daniel Johnson got a deal on Atlantic Records. So all of a sudden, being a mentally unstable underground icon for the only time I could recall in American history was a viable commercial commodity. So John Fahey all of a sudden is the right guy at the right time. And of course he rejects it and wants nothing to do with it.

[Nick Thompson]

Yeah.

[Commentator/Producer]

And decides to make avant garde industrial sound collage music. He fell in love with this woman named Hitomi on a late 90s tour of Japan, was the woman he met once. And he just became so deeply infatuated with her. He couldn't think of anything else. It got to the point it got so bad that he tried to go see her in Japan and he was greeted at the airport by the police. He was pretty despondent. He was an unhealthy guy with extreme excesses. And you know, sadly, John Fahey died at the age of 61 due to complications of a sexteval bypass operation.

[Nick Thompson]

Tell me, what drew you to the story? Why did you decide to invest several years writing his biography?

[Commentator/Producer]

It's weird. I'm not a superstitious guy. I'm a very practical sort of man. But in the liner notes to 1965's Transfiguration of Blind Joe Death album, John Fahey writes the story of a student who's writing his master's dissertation on a 20th century genius. John Fahey, set in the year 2010. Prior to reading it, I decided to get my master's degree and write my thesis on John Fahey. So John predicted my writing this book many years before I was born. This last song is called Dry Bones in the Valley and I just think it's a great example of the level of feeling and ennui and sadness and darkness I feel is unparalleled in American music.

[David Remnick]

John Fahey on acoustic guitar that was his biographer Steve Lowenthal in conversation with Nicholas Thompson, formerly of the New Yorker. And that's the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remember, hope you enjoyed the show and let us know if you did. Go to newyorkerradio.org and leave a comment or find us on Twitter ewyorkerradio. See you next week.

[Host/Interviewer]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Alexis Cuadrado. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by by the Turina Endowment Fund.