How Alpha Kappa Alpha Shaped Kamala Harris; Plus, Bill T. Jones

Summary

The New Yorker Radio Hour: How Alpha Kappa Alpha Shaped Kamala Harris; Plus, Bill T. Jones

Release Date: October 29, 2024

Hosted By: David Remnick
Produced By: WNYC Studios and The New Yorker
Description: Profiles, storytelling, and insightful conversations exploring pivotal influences shaping prominent figures and groundbreaking works.

---

1. The Influence of Alpha Kappa Alpha on Kamala Harris

Introduction to Alpha Kappa Alpha (AKA) and Its Impact

David Remnick opens the episode by highlighting Kamala Harris's well-documented narratives about her middle-class upbringing, single motherhood, and early career as a prosecutor. However, he points out a less discussed yet crucial aspect of her background: her membership in the sorority Alpha Kappa Alpha (AKA).

Jasmine Hughes on AKA's Significance
Timestamp: [02:12]

Jasmine Hughes, author of the featured New Yorker article, delves into the multifaceted identity that AKA represents for its members. She states:

“It is an identity, I would say probably as important to them or you know, on the same list as their race, their gender, political affiliations, religion, what have you. It is a lifetime commitment. It is a community service organization. It is a secret society. It is Alpha Kappa Alpha Incorporated.”
[02:12]

Historical Context and Mission of AKA

Founded in 1908 during a tumultuous period for African Americans, AKA emerged as a self-reliant organization in response to the exclusion of Black students from white fraternities and sororities. Jasmine Hughes connects this history to the broader concept of the "Talented Tenth," a term coined by W.E.B. Du Bois, emphasizing the role of educated Black individuals in uplifting their communities.

“The mission of the organization among many is to uplift the social status of the Negro… if Kamala Harris does win the presidency, that is sort of literally what AKA was created to do.”
[03:33]

Personal Testimonials and the AKA Network

Latifah Simon, a congressional candidate and longtime friend of Harris, shares her experiences working under Harris's mentorship:

“When I get an unknown call on my phone, I know it's either student loans or Kamala Harris calling me.”
[05:29]

Simon recounts how Harris instilled a sense of professionalism and excellence, exemplified by moments like Harris insisting Simon attend college while working for her, emphasizing AKA's role in personal and professional development.

AKA's Role in the 2024 Campaign

Despite being a nonprofit organization that traditionally does not endorse candidates, AKA has been instrumental in mobilizing voters through grassroots efforts:

“They're really pounding the pavement and getting people to register to vote, to know the issues, to be able to get to the polls.”
[09:38]

Jasmine Hughes underscores the organization's impact on voter turnout, particularly within Black communities, which are crucial for Democratic success in national elections.

Comparative Analysis: Kamala Harris vs. Barack Obama

Hughes contrasts Harris's deep-rooted Black American experience with Barack Obama's more geographically and culturally diverse upbringing:

“Kamala at Howard University at age 18, that's like as black as black can be… versus Barack Obama, which is just sort of a different sort of blackness.”
[08:11]

This distinction highlights why certain segments of the Black vote may feel a stronger connection to Harris, perceiving her identity as more authentically tied to the Black American experience.

Challenges and Reflections on Identity Politics

Addressing current polling trends, Hughes speculates that Harris's approach to identity politics might be affecting voter enthusiasm:

“Kamala Harris's reluctance to embrace that, at least so far, is causing people not to [be as excited].”
[11:40]

She reflects on the balance between appealing to broader, independent voters and galvanizing the core Black electorate, suggesting that embracing her identity more openly could resonate better with her base.

---

2. Bill T. Jones and the Dance Piece "Still Here"

Introduction to Bill T. Jones and "Still Here"

David Remnick transitions to the second segment, focusing on Bill T. Jones, a renowned dancer and choreographer. He introduces Jones's seminal work, "Still Here," which debuted at the Brooklyn Academy of Music (BAM) 30 years prior and is being restaged.

Exploring "Still Here"

Kamala Harris narrates the essence of "Still Here," emphasizing its roots in personal loss and the quest to find meaning amidst mortality:

“After his partner Arne Zane's death and after the loss of so many young gay men to HIV and AIDS, Bill T. Jones went in search of a choreography that spoke to our mortality, but also to the meaning of our lives.”
[18:10]

Workshops and Creative Process

Jones describes the workshops that formed the backbone of "Still Here," where participants facing terminal illnesses contributed their movements and narratives:

“He would start asking questions like, 'How do you get up every day? How do you love your children? What have you learned about life? What are you afraid of?'"
[20:02]

These interactions fueled the choreography, making the piece a profound exploration of life, death, and resilience.

Reception and Legacy

Originally met with mixed reactions, including criticism labeling it as "victim art," "Still Here" has since been recognized as a landmark in contemporary performance art. Jones reflects on the evolving perception of his work:

“No one's having that argument. No one would call it victim art in 2024. That's such a foreign concept.”
[36:42]

He acknowledges the initial controversies but asserts that the art world's acceptance signals a triumph over past prejudices.

Intergenerational Dialogue and Modern Relevance

When restaging "Still Here," Jones engages with a younger generation unfamiliar with the socio-political climate of the original workshops. He poses contemporary questions about identity and mortality, bridging past and present:

“Do you think your sexuality is just next door to being the kiss of death?”
[32:08]

The young performers embrace the challenge, eager to contribute to a piece that intertwines meaning with artistic expression.

Artistic Philosophy and Personal Reflections

Jones shares his philosophy on art's role in addressing profound human experiences:

“Show me one feed after another on Instagram in terms of virtuosity… What is that thing called meaning?”
[31:17]

He emphasizes the necessity of art to grapple with mortality and meaning, transcending mere aesthetic appeal to touch the human spirit.

Closing Thoughts on "Still Here"

Jones and Harris conclude their conversation by affirming the piece's enduring relevance and its ability to foster dialogue about life and death:

“As people, we're always grappling with mortality, whether we're running from it or not.”
[37:10]

Jones expresses hope that "Still Here" continues to resonate, offering both generations a space to reflect on their existence and connections.

---

Conclusion

David Remnick wraps up the episode by reaffirming the significance of both discussions—AKA's profound influence on a political leader and "Still Here" as a transformative work of art. The episode underscores the intertwined nature of personal identity, community, and artistic expression in shaping societal narratives.

Notable Quotes:

• Jasmine Hughes on AKA's Identity:

  “It is a lifetime commitment. It is a community service organization. It is a secret society.”
  [02:12]

• Latifah Simon on Kamala Harris's Mentorship:

  “When I get an unknown call on my phone, I know it's either student loans or Kamala Harris calling me.”
  [05:29]

• Jasmine Hughes on Voter Mobilization:

  “They're really pounding the pavement and getting people to register to vote, to know the issues, to be able to get to the polls.”
  [09:38]

• Bill T. Jones on Art and Mortality:

  “Bill's art was turning what happened in the survivor workshops into the dance. Still Here.”
  [23:08]

• Bill T. Jones on Overcoming Criticism:

  “Now, they say it starts there, but it's got to climb to the Apollonian heights to earn its place as great.”
  [28:56]

---

For more insightful stories and conversations, tune into future episodes of The New Yorker Radio Hour, available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

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[Justin Wines Representative]

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[Justin Wines Representative]

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[Kamala Harris]

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[Jasmine Hughes]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production.

[Justin Wines Representative]

Of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

[David Remnick]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. You can often hear Kamala Harris on the campaign trail talking about growing up middle class, being raised by a single mom. She talks about a summer job at McDonald's. And Harris talks a great deal too, about the early part of her career as a prosecutor in California. But there's one aspect of her background that's relatively overlooked and it's critical to understanding her Harris membership in the sorority Alpha Kappa Alpha because AKA is no simple drinking club.

[Jasmine Hughes]

It is a identity, I would say probably as important to them or you know, on the same list as their race, their gender, political affiliations, religion, what have you. It is a lifetime commitment. It is a community service organization. It is a secret society. It is Alpha Kappa Alpha Incorporated.

[David Remnick]

Jasmine Hughes writes in this week's New Yorker about Alpha Kappa Alpha and its role in shaping the woman who would be the first Black female president. Who are some of the more prominent.

[Jasmine Hughes]

Members of AKA Toni Morrison, Sonia Sanchez, poet Ellen Sirleaf Johnson, the first woman elected president of any African nation, as.

[David Remnick]

Well as the first Black woman in space, the first Black female bishop. It's a long, long list.

[Jasmine Hughes]

It's a long, long list. I have a quote from a woman from an AKA in the story saying it's relatively impossible to become the first black fill in the blank without the backing of a sorority because the networks are so strong. In addition to, you know, the camaraderie and the colors and all of that.

[David Remnick]

How did being a member of AKA shape Kamala Harris experience of Howard and really more importantly, the rest of her life?

[Jasmine Hughes]

So AKA was founded in 1908, right? And in this incredibly difficult sticky time for African Americans, an organization like Alpha Kappa Alpha was really created out of self reliance. Black college students were barred from joining white fraternal and sororital organizations, and so they formed their own. While writing this story, I thought a lot about Du Bois, right, and the talented 10th. This idea that 10% of the college educated black population would work in their communities to sort of uplift the race. That's a really good way to understand AKA So when we look at Kamala Harris as not only a presidential candidate, but as a member of AKA we first and foremost see someone who is supposed to be committed to uplifting black women, to uplifting the race. I think in one of the bylaws of the organization, truly it says that the mission of the organization among many is to uplift the social status of the Negro, right? And so the reason why I was interested in this story in the first place was that if Kamala Harris does win the presidency, that is sort of literally what AKA was created to do.

[David Remnick]

To like, this is the ultimate fulfillment.

[Jasmine Hughes]

This is the ultimate fulfillment. Someone said to me on the record, like, Kamala Harris is our ancestors wildest dreams. The idea that a black woman could rise to that level obviously comes with some, for lack of a better word, training. And so one of the focuses of AKA is on, and all these historically black fraternities and sororities is on comportment, right? How to be excellent, how to dress properly, how to like comport yourself in public, how to be involved in your community. Basically, it's like a finishing school in some ways that is really steeped in black self reliance and, you know, like brothers and sisters doing it for themselves. It's pretty fubu, you know, for us, by us.

[David Remnick]

I found myself moved by some of this, the kind of mentor mentee relationships that form. You have a woman named Latifah Simon who's a congressional candidate from the Bay Area, and she worked under Kamala Harris. What was her impression of Harris and how did AKA figure into it?

[Jasmine Hughes]

Latifah Simon gave me this Amazing quote, she said, when I get an unknown call on my phone, I know it's either student loans or Kamala Harris calling me. Latifah and Kamala have been friends for over 20 years, and Latifah really drove home this sense of. Of Harris trying to really instill excellence in her, of trying to bring her up to a level of professionalism. So whether that meant like buying Latifah her first suit on her second day of work, as Kamala did not like what Latifa wore on the first day of work, or even things like, quote unquote, making Latifah attend college. When Latifah started working for Kamala Harris, who was then the district attorney, Latifah was in her mid-20s, had a child, had a Carthagin Fellowship, and Kamala was like, you still have to go to college, and I'm gonna be checking on your grades as you while you're there, while you're working for me.

[David Remnick]

At one point, Latifah said, why are you wearing those pearls?

[Jasmine Hughes]

One of the symbols of AKA is the pearl. And, you know, there have been all these stories about why does Kamala Harris wear these pearls? Why does she wear the pearls all the time? And it is alongside the ivy leaf, the primary totem, I would say, of the organization and a subtle way to signal your affiliation. But, you know, to be clear, Latifah loves this. She loved the rigor, she loved the seriousness with which Kamala took her because she said that no one else had ever, you know, considered her or regarded her in that way, and that it was something that she really needed and appreciated. So that goes back to the sense that AKA is this sort of finishing school. And some people really like that behavior. Others, you know, are hairy armed lesbians like myself.

[David Remnick]

So you spoke with a woman named Jalonda Jones, who's a state representative in Texas, and aka and she said that she loves the Obamas, but, quote, neither of them were Greek. Then she told you black folks are about to do more for Kamala than we did for Obama. Are we sure that's true? And what did you make of what she said?

[Jasmine Hughes]

I think it's true that certain segments of the black voting population are more excited for Kamala Harris because remember the summer then for Obama than for Obama. I mean, okay, so remember nabj, Donald.

[David Remnick]

Trump, national association of Black Journalists, right?

[Jasmine Hughes]

Yes. At the convention of the national association of Black Journalists earlier this summer, Donald Trump insinuated that Kamala Harris turned black. Right. That she hadn't Always identified as such. And I think a lot of people just pointed to her time at Howard and her membership in AKA as not only identity identifying as black, but like a very specific black American experience that they did not see or really get from someone like Barack Obama who grew up in Hawaii, who had, you know, I mean, Kamala Harris is also biracial, but Barack Obama was raised predominantly by his white mother. Right. You know, when Barack talks about his sort of black American experience, in my mind, you know, it's sort of located in Chicago. It's something he comes into as an adult. Whereas Kamala at Howard university at age 18, that's like as black as spades and stepping and cookouts and greasing your scalp. And I think that it means something different, something deeper and something that's more tied, obviously, to the black American identity with its roots in the South. To see someone like Kamala Harris as opposed to Barack Obama, which is just sort of a different sort of blackness.

[David Remnick]

You write that AK has never endorsed a candidate, given that it's a nonprofit. It's not supposed to, but we've seen them mobilize to support the Harris campaign. What have they been doing? Are they going to door to door, and what kind of numbers are we talking about?

[Jasmine Hughes]

They're sort of doing what they always do, which is so powerful about AKA is that they're really pounding the pavement and getting people to register to vote, to know the issues, to be able to get to the polls. And, you know, as voting gets increasingly more difficult in certain places, in certain areas of this country, whether it's ID laws or what have you, I think AKA is really trying to fulfill its mission as a community service organization by taking down as many barriers as possible for people to vote. Because they are so nonpartisan, Many people went out of their way to say, I don't care who you vote for as long as you vote. It's really just about, I think, like, maintaining and respecting the legacy and the history of people in the civil rights movement who advocated so strongly for the right for black people to vote and really making sure that we carry that mission out.

[David Remnick]

What kind of effect on the race do you think it'll have?

[Jasmine Hughes]

I think it'll have a sizable one because of this sort of grassroots, feet on the boots, on the ground approach.

[David Remnick]

And they're in particular places, the obvious places.

[Jasmine Hughes]

I mean, they have over 1000 chapters around the world. They're everywhere. But I think the reason why AKA can be so effective is, again, because they are knocking on doors. They are Very powerful and insistent organization. And I think by sheer will and grit, they were making sure that black people in their neighborhoods, the people in their communities, are going out to vote. And we know that Democrats need a huge contingency of black people to vote for them in order to secure the White House. And I think that community organizations like AKA will be much more effective than even the campaign itself just because they're so enmeshed in their community and they know how to get shit done.

[David Remnick]

We're looking at polls now, and they may turn out to be real or they may turn out to be diluted, in which in a lot of areas, Kamala Harris is doing less well with the black vote than. Forget Barack Obama, but Joe Biden. What do you make of this?

[Jasmine Hughes]

One thing I am curious about, again, is this identity politic. I was in college. I was a freshman in college when Barack Obama was elected. Okay? So, like, it was. I wasn't cynical yet. It was like a watershed moment for the black community. I cried or whatever. And I think that that sort of identity politic, although, you know, now as a journalist and an adult, I can say that it's corny, but I think that it's really powerful for people. And I wonder if Kamala Harris reluctance to embrace that, at least so far, is causing people not to.

[David Remnick]

You think it might be a mistake?

[Jasmine Hughes]

I don't think it's. I think maybe it's a mistake. I don't think people dislike her. I think maybe they're not as excited for her as they were for someone like Barack Obama.

[David Remnick]

And that has to do with what?

[Jasmine Hughes]

Because she's not couching it in the importance of her identity. Right. Because she's not saying I will be the first black female president in the way that even like a Shirley Chisholm might have.

[David Remnick]

But I found with Obama that he had a similar anxiety about talking too much about race, let alone, let's forget the race speech, the moment with Jeremiah Wright and all that. Oye is right. But I remember interviewing him, and I asked him a question about this very thing. And he said. And he kind of brushed it off. He gave me some nonsense answer. And we're in the Oval Office and da, da, da. It's all very tense. And then he leaves, goes down the hall, and then he comes all the way back, like 150 yards and says. And in the doorway. And he says, you gotta understand, every time I talk about race, no matter what I say, one little. If one little word is off, it moves the needle in the same way. As if I talk about the economy and the effect on the stock market that it's so complicated, so many different constituencies that you're wary of politically and otherwise. That anxiety is, I think that anxiety.

[Jasmine Hughes]

Is real and I empathize with that. I wonder if the campaign is sort of relying on the black vote, maybe thinking they they don't have to reach out as much because we see Kamala Harris really trained to go after these sort of independent middle of the road voters in an attempt to not scare voters out of, you know, electing a black and South Asian woman.

[David Remnick]

Jasmine Hughes thank you, thank you. You can read Jasmine Hughes piece the Tight Knit World of Kamala harris [e-mail] More in a moment.

[Jasmine Hughes]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported.

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[Jasmine Hughes]

Hey everyone. Join me, Megan Reinks and me, Melissa Demontz for Don't Blame Me But Am I Wrong.

[David Remnick]

Each week we deliver four fun filled.

[Jasmine Hughes]

Shows and Don't Blame Me. We tackle our listeners dilemmas with hilariously honest advice.

[Kamala Harris]

Then we have But Am I Wrong?

[David Remnick]

Which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice.

[Jasmine Hughes]

Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong? And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? On Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday.

[David Remnick]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. This week, the Brooklyn Academy of Music, one of New York's leading places to see new cutting edge work, is featuring a performance that caused quite a stir when it debuted at BAM 30 years ago. The work is called Still Here, and back then some rejected its premise the way it drew on true stories of people confronting illness and death. The New Yorker's own dance critic at the time, Arlene Croce, declared that she wouldn't even review it. But today, Still Here is considered a landmark in contemporary performance. The choreographer, too, is now really a legend. Bill T. Jones. He recently spoke with Kai wright, who hosts WNYC's Notes from America. Here's Kai.

[Kamala Harris]

You do not have to be a devotee of dance to know the name Bill T. Jones. His face has been on the COVID of Time magazine. President Obama gave him a National Medal of Arts, and Keith Haring painted his body like painted on his naked body. Suffice to say, Bill T. Jones has lived quite a public life. And for most of that life, he's been a dancer and a choreographer. The Brooklyn Academy of Music is restaging one of his most renowned dances. It's called Still Here. It's a dance from 30 years ago and I went to talk with him about it. Hello. Hi, I'm Kai. Still here?

[Justin Wines Representative]

Yes.

[Kamala Harris]

For people being introduced to the work, how would you describe it?

[Justin Wines Representative]

It is at once a period work that is proving to have transcended its era. It came out of the personal questions and travails of its primary creator, Bill T. Jones, about the nature of mortality.

[Kamala Harris]

After his partner Arne Zane's death and after the loss of so many young gay men to HIV and aids, Bill T. Jones went in search of a choreography that spoke to our mortality, but also to the meaning of our lives. He began talking, working and moving with other people who were also facing death through terminal illnesses. He created survivor workshops which allowed him to explore this new vocabulary of movement. In the original program for Still Here, Jones writes, my intention since the onset of this project has been to create a work not as a rumination on death and decline, but on the resourcefulness and courage necessary to perform the act of living. The journalist Bill Moyers was so interested in this inquiry that he made a documentary about Still Here and about the workshops that led up to the performance.

[David Remnick]

What do you hope to accomplish at a workshop like this?

[Justin Wines Representative]

I want these workshops to be moving and talking about life and death.

[Kamala Harris]

12 workshops took place in 10 different cities across the country. Almost 100 people participated.

[Justin Wines Representative]

James, Sam, Michael.

[Kamala Harris]

And they ranged. They ranged in age. Some were 70, some were children. They were all different races. They were women, they were men, they were queer, they were straight. But they were all people who were dealing with life threatening illnesses themselves. They had firsthand experience of mortality. Bill walked into the room most often. He was Just wearing sweatpants and a sweatshirt. And he got people moving.

[Justin Wines Representative]

Whoa. Are you going to drive? Can you put me back?

[Kamala Harris]

Then he would start asking questions.

[Justin Wines Representative]

How do you get up every day? How do you love your children? What have you learned about life? What are you afraid of? And so on. These became the script for these sessions, and they were not primarily people who were dancers. That was a wonderful thing about it.

[Kamala Harris]

They seem so intense. I mean, it seems like such an intense experience.

[Justin Wines Representative]

Have you seen the Moyers?

[Kamala Harris]

Yeah. And it's just. I mean, I had to turn it off a couple times, if I'm honest.

[Justin Wines Representative]

I'm just now to a point where I can watch it, but it. Yeah.

[Kamala Harris]

Do you remember the first workshop? Are you able to tell me the story of, like, the first one and what that was like?

[Justin Wines Representative]

I think the very first one was an all. And we didn't know what we were doing. But I remember one codger, old codger. I'm an old codger now, but codger saying, well, I came down here because they told me there's going to be some dancing girls. He was a clown. He was a lovely man. And they all came in. It was like, it's a big studio or a gymnasium. We began to do certain exercises like draw your life on a piece of paper and now Make a Pattern became a roadmap. Now I need a volunteer who is actually going to walk us through their life. Complete guided tour.

[Jasmine Hughes]

Speaking with narration.

[Justin Wines Representative]

With narration. Did we do in that first workshop, Take Me to youo Death? I remember it happening in Boston quite clearly in Boston. Might have been the third one. Can you imagine the last moment of your life? What's the last thing you. The light.

[Kamala Harris]

The light?

[Justin Wines Representative]

Yes, the light. I watch the light. The sun shining. And that's an exercise not many of us actually are so interested in. I mean, maybe now I imagine there are. But that time, it's kind of a macabre exercise.

[Kamala Harris]

To me. It remains a macabre exercise. I can't do it.

[Justin Wines Representative]

Really. You can't at all? I mean, if you. But do you dare when you feel most secure in yourself? What I said, okay, what would you like it to be? Ah, what would you like it to be?

[Kamala Harris]

One of the things you would ask people in the workshops was what they love.

[Justin Wines Representative]

Yeah. What they love? Yeah.

[Kamala Harris]

Why? Why was that an important question?

[Justin Wines Representative]

I think it implies their highest self. Love is that faculty of. Of being human that gives one a direction out of self. Parents know this. If you love anything, I think you understand that sometimes you are able you're given the blessing of forgetting the self. Love quiets those questions, if only temporarily. Could I trust a person who does not, has never had the experience of.

[Kamala Harris]

Loving if they couldn't answer that question? Yeah, it's true. You haven't given yourself over it anything.

[Justin Wines Representative]

And that's where art comes in.

[Kamala Harris]

Bill's art was turning what happened in the survivor workshops into the dance. Still here. The movements, the gestures, the expressions that Bill encouraged the workshop participants to make, they became part of the actual choreography of the piece. Those dancers would perform gestures that people made in the workshops. And the words from the workshop participants, those became part of the music for the piece.

[Justin Wines Representative]

And the joke is, God doesn't tell you when you're gonna die. The second section is by Vernon Reed. And Vernon Reed is a rocker from Living Color, if you remember that group, you know, and wonderful man, one day in a workshop, which is a very good workshop, we're in the studio having this intense time, and somebody next door is doing construction with a drill.

[Kamala Harris]

You're here talking about death, but you know what. And love and all of the things.

[Justin Wines Representative]

Yes, well, as a matter of fact, things like a woman talking about, she was a wonderful woman. She was an actress. Mortality and knowledge. I just feel like you remember that only if I. If I knew enough or if I understood enough, maybe I could accept mortality.

[Jasmine Hughes]

If I could just get the right perception.

[Justin Wines Representative]

If I could just find the thing. So your movement is a question. Yeah, it's a struggle. If I just had knowledge, I could understand mortality. I could deal with it. And this drill is going on. But he brilliant. He put that in the score. And that's something we call the pit in the story. It's harsh to look at, and that sound is so grating, but it is justified because, no, this is not a piece that's all about gooey emotions. I know people who are not fans. It's maudlin and what have you, but, man, it was real. It is real.

[Kamala Harris]

I'm so envious of the experience. I can imagine. I mean, all of those people being willing to share that level of vulnerability. And the things you learn about the world, about yourself, about you, and knowing.

[Justin Wines Representative]

Where it was going, not knowing how it was going to be realized. Isn't that amazing?

[Kamala Harris]

It really is remarkable.

[Justin Wines Representative]

Generosity, I think, is the word. Those persons, they gave to me some of the greatest things to give. I've tried to honor it. And I think about it a lot now. I think about it a lot.

[Kamala Harris]

It's the moment of death now. Or you think about the workshops now.

[Justin Wines Representative]

The moment of death. Oh, yeah. Still here. Didn't stop. It was like a moment where an idea came in close on an idea. But my own life and engagement, the topic did not stop. Yeah.

[Kamala Harris]

What do you think about it now?

[Justin Wines Representative]

That I should embrace it as being a part of. Just like my next breath is inevitable. And can I. Can I normalize the mysterious? And can I know that there was a time before I had consciousness? And it's inevitable there's a time after. All of these things are comforting to me, but they don't take away the deep in the night terror. What takes away the deep in the night terror is the sound of my husband next to me breathing evenly. Look at this room. Look at this garden. It balances out.

[Kamala Harris]

When it was first performed, still here got a lot of attention. The New York Times described it as a true work of art, both sensitive and original. But for the last 30 years, Bill has also been churning in his head about the other reaction the piece got.

[Justin Wines Representative]

There was a stink about it. There was called victim art and so on. It was confused with identity politics and the quote, laziness of our generation, our era, that art is not something utilitarian to be used for social causes or so on. Art should transcend. Art has got to be disinterested.

[Kamala Harris]

This is an idea you were disdainful of.

[Justin Wines Representative]

Well, I wasn't disdainful. Quite frank. I'm a bit of a snob myself. I thought that I was down with it, but I thought that it was just in a grand tradition of taking experience of life and through processes of construction and investigation and analysis, you make something else. Art coming out of your identity as a black man, your art should transcend all those things. It comes out of your experience as a woman, as a person who's been molested. Well, that's pure indulgence and it's cheating.

[Kamala Harris]

I can think of no different. I can't imagine, you know. So as a Gen Xer, I just. My blood goes entirely cold at the idea of art that has nothing to do with who you are.

[Justin Wines Representative]

Well, now, they say it starts there, but it's got to climb to the Apollonian heights to earn its place as great. And we can argue about that.

[Kamala Harris]

I'm immediately bored, really.

[Justin Wines Representative]

Are you?

[Kamala Harris]

If you are telling me what you're doing has nothing to do with you or your life experience, I'm immediately skeptical of it. It seems so dishonest.

[Justin Wines Representative]

Well, no, you know, it's a grand tradition, of course. What is a sonnet form? It's a disciplined form that has to do with the length of line, rhythm, image. It's disciplined. There are worse things, you know, I mean, how do you feel about a haiku fair? You know, a haiku is. It's supposed to appeal to the ear first, and then it finds its way through the mind and it goes to the heart. An old saw, and one that I quote a lot is Marcel Duchamp, who said, art is primarily an intellectual activity. And by that, and I don't know, this is. I don't know that I add this or wherever you tell your story so many years, you're not sure anymore, but it comes in through the eyes and goes through the mind. And then I say it comes in through the eye, goes through the mind, and if it's really potent, and you and I would agree, it goes to the heart, which is the goal. Now, can I get right to the heart? You know, I think a lot of black music does that. I think it's like when you hear someone just say, ah already, like, what was that sound? You know? And that, I think, is, for me, that's the highest. But it doesn't stop there. And art can do whatever it wants to do. And that's the scary thing about it. Art should be terrifying and it should be free in a way that surprises.

[Kamala Harris]

So you make still here in a context of a culture of death. There's so much death happening in the country, I mean, in your community at the time.

[Justin Wines Representative]

And just remember, death is always happening. But when you're young, when you're young and you're pretty and you're going to live forever, you think so anyways, I interviewed.

[Kamala Harris]

You think it's quite distant. Well, I mean, listen. And so today it's being remounted. And I was going to ask you to sort of think about it in these contexts versus those contexts, an audience walking into it.

[Justin Wines Representative]

Yeah, I laugh because I just floated the idea with my young company. Well, you all, you know about the piece. We made sure they watched the Moyers documentary, and many of them had studied it or heard about it, but a lot of them did not understand the climate that it was made in. And I asked them, well, what. This is what I was thinking, and this is what's in the piece. Can you hang with me? Are you interested in this? What does it mean to you? And as I say to the gay men in the room, is your sexuality just next door to being the kiss of death?

[Kamala Harris]

How did they answer that? Did they.

[Justin Wines Representative]

They kind of. Well, we have prep. What? Oh, prep. Oh, I See, those are drugs you take now before you go out. So I said, so in other words, you don't have to worry anymore. Because we were worried. We knew that we were risking every time we had sex with anyone that we were. I don't know if it was. I had to handle it with a light touch. You run the risk of them feeling somehow they're oppressed, somehow they're being attacked. You know, is there a correct answer that Bill wants them to give? I just want to talk to you like my colleagues. But, hey, you're my children. But they were game. First of all, they love the idea of performing at bam. That's my dream, to perform the stage at bam. So they never mind my ego about it. Doesn't matter what the piece is. You just want to perform. But then they also. They also trust me, and they definitely trust Janet. Janet Wong, my associate director. And they want to do something that is. Now, let me say this. I think they want to do something that's important. They hope it's important. And I can't say that everything I've done has been important, but I've been striving for it to be engaged in a discussion that's bigger than the beauty of line or how did Martha Graham describe the dancers are athletes or acrobats of God? Show me one feed after another on Instagram. The things that you see people doing on Instagram in terms of virtuosity are astounding. What is that thing called meaning? Hmm. Well, I think they want to talk about that place where meaning and beauty and life and death meet. I'm a big fan of Hannah Arendt, and she says that the project in Western philosophy has been, quote, a study for truth. But she says that's not really the case. It's not been a study for truth. It's been a study for meaning. Now then. We're off now.

[Kamala Harris]

And death forces that. To think about mortality does make you think about meaning and your life's meaning.

[Justin Wines Representative]

And I think it does. But I think you're probably like, I'm. I'm not sure if it does for everybody.

[Kamala Harris]

Well, that's what makes it so hard to think about. I think for me, you know, when you. To imagine the moment of your death means. Forces me to immediately begin to think about the meaning of my life up until that point.

[Justin Wines Representative]

Bingo. Our interview today is very revealing to me. I had announced proudly to my staff, look, I will do this at bam, but I'm not doing any publicity about it. Really. No, no, no. I have Been in the fire. And I know that I will get pulled into it. It becomes about Bill, his hiv, Arnie, aids, whatever. And I said, I don't want to do that.

[Kamala Harris]

Your work has always been so personal. It's so your story. You are so. You've put so much of you into everything. It's striking to hear you say you feel like I don't want to have anything to do with me.

[Justin Wines Representative]

Well, it's 30 years old and it's got a sink or swim, you know, like, I think you get some sense of how raw things were when Arnie died. And then by the time Still Here came about and then the response that Still Here got, which was great, great response. But the fight that it started, that, I don't know, people. That fight's gone underground now about victim art and people leaning into their victimhood and expecting you, the audience to come and pay to see them and don't go, you know, that sort of thing. I didn't want to be part of that. I want to be. I want to be part of the club that has James Baldwin in it, James Joyce in it.

[Kamala Harris]

You are in that club. And dare I say, Bill, you won the argument.

[Justin Wines Representative]

I think that's what Janet says. I mean, I hear you. How do you feel that we won? Because I was just talking.

[Kamala Harris]

Because no one's having that argument. No one would call it victim art in 2024. That's such a foreign concept.

[Justin Wines Representative]

Amen. Amen.

[Kamala Harris]

That's left to the relics, because you and your contemporaries won that fight.

[Justin Wines Representative]

So thank you. That means then, Bill, close the drawer on that one. Still Here will have to sink or swim on its own merits. Are there merits there? Is it pure dance? What is there now in that piece?

[Kamala Harris]

We're always grappling with mortality. Right? That's something.

[Justin Wines Representative]

Even works of art, you say, oh, no.

[Kamala Harris]

As audience members, we're always. As people, we're always grappling with mortality, whether we're running from it or not.

[Justin Wines Representative]

I agree. However, since it is so common, the experience, what distinguishes this particular expression from the many others out there? And that's the lotto we're playing. Pray for a Genius Work.

[David Remnick]

Choreographer Bill T. Jones speaking with WNYC's Kai Wright. That interview was broadcast on WNYC's Notes from America and Jones Work Still Here is being performed this week at the Brooklyn Academy of Music. That's our podcast for today. Thanks for listening.

[Jasmine Hughes]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell and Jared Paul.

[Justin Wines Representative]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported.

[Jasmine Hughes]

In part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.

[Madeline Barron]

My name is Madeline Barron. I'm a journalist for the New Yorker. I focus on stories where powerful people or institutions are doing something that's harming people or harming someone or something in some way. And so my job is to report that so exhaustively that we can reveal what's actually going on and present it to the public. You know, for us, at in the Dark, we're paying equal attention to the reporting and the storytelling, and we felt a real kinship with the New Yorker. Like the combination of the deeply reported stories that the New Yorker is known for, but also the quality of those stories, the attention to narrative. If I could give you only one reason to subscribe to the New Yorker, it would be, maybe this is not the answer you're looking for, but I just don't think that there is any other magazine in America that combines so many different types of things into a single issue. As a New Yorker, you know, like, you have poetry, you have theater reviews, you have restaurant recommendations, which for some reason I read, even though I don't live in New York City. And all of those things are great, but I haven't even mentioned, like, the other half of the magazine, which is deeply reported stories that honestly are the first things that I read. You know, I'm a big fan of gymnastics. And people will say, oh, we were so lucky to live in the era of Simone Biles. Which I agree. We're also so lucky to live in the era of Lawrence Wright, Jane Mayer, Ronan Farrow, Patrick Raden, Keefe. And so to me, it's like, I can't imagine not reading these writers.

[Kamala Harris]

You can have all the journalism, the fiction, the film, book and TV reviews, all the cartoons just by going right now to newyorker.com dark plus, there's an incredible archive, a century's worth of award winning work just waiting for you. That's newyorker.com dark and thanks.