How Science Fiction Led Elon Musk to DOGE

Summary

The New Yorker Radio Hour: How Science Fiction Led Elon Musk to DOGE

Release Date: April 18, 2025

Hosts: David Remnick
Guests: Jill Lepore, Professor of American History and Law at Harvard University; Patti Hoyt, Tesla Takedown Organizer

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Introduction

In the April 18, 2025 episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour, host David Remnick delves into the intricate and multifaceted persona of Elon Musk. Exploring how Musk’s fascination with science fiction has influenced his ventures and ideologies, the episode intertwines historical analysis with contemporary political movements. Joined by Harvard historian Jill Lepore and Tesla Takedown organizer Patti Hoyt, the discussion unpacks Musk’s transition from a tech mogul to a prominent figure in the far-right landscape, examining the implications for his businesses and American society.

Elon Musk: From Visionary to MAGA Figure

David Remnick opens the episode by contextualizing Elon Musk's growing influence in political spheres comparable to that of Donald Trump. Remnick notes Musk's substantial wealth, penchant for trolling, disdain for government regulations, and his belief that his interests should prevail above all.

David Remnick [00:18]:
"Of the many politicians who have tried to position themselves as Trump's heir and closest advisor, really only Elon Musk rivals the boss."

Musk's political leanings have shifted notably over the years. Initially supportive of Obama and Biden, he has recently aligned more closely with MAGA ideologies, raising questions about whether this shift is driven by personal interest or genuine ideological transformation.

The Science Fiction Influence

Jill Lepore provides a nuanced analysis of Musk’s deep immersion in pop culture, particularly science fiction, and how this has shaped his worldview and business endeavors.

Jill Lepore [02:24]:
"Musk is a man of many costumes and he likes to play roles. He is a person who is very immersed in the world of video gaming and comic books and science fiction and Hollywood superhero movies."

Lepore compares Musk to the Batman archetype but critiques his misinterpretation of iconic characters, noting that Musk appears to aspire to a darker, more authoritarian version of Batman as portrayed in Christopher Nolan's films rather than the original, more virtuous iterations.

Jill Lepore [05:05]:
"He’s not Adam West. He’s also not the Batman of the 1930s comic book, you know, who was really created in 1939 to fight fascism."

The Ideological Underpinnings of DOGE

The conversation shifts to Musk's involvement with DOGE and his broader ideological motivations. Lepore argues that Musk’s actions are driven by a misaligned interpretation of science fiction narratives, leading him to believe that he alone can address existential threats to humanity.

Jill Lepore [10:07]:
"The math that lies behind DOGE... has nothing to do with democracy or citizenship or decency or any set of beliefs or commitments or moral clarity about the nature of the human condition."

Lepore suggests that DOGE is not merely about cost-cutting but embodies a darker ideology that prioritizes space colonization and artificial intelligence development over social welfare, aligning Musk with far-right movements that advocate for reduced government intervention.

Conflicts with the Federal Government and Impact on Tesla

The discussion highlights the friction between Musk’s DOGE-driven agenda and government institutions, particularly how this tension impacts his business ventures like Tesla.

Jill Lepore [10:29]:
"Musk earns a great many contracts through SpaceX, including under the HSF of Space Force... regulatory excess that can only be eliminated through Trump’s victory."

This antagonistic stance towards government regulations has led to significant consequences for Tesla, including declining sales and protests at dealerships, which Musk attributes to his broader ideological battles.

Protests and the Tesla Takedown Movement

Patti Hoyt, a key organizer in the Tesla Takedown movement, provides firsthand insights into the grassroots opposition against Musk’s enterprises. She discusses the motivations behind the protests, focusing on the perceived threat DOGE poses to veterans and immigrants through federal workforce cuts.

Patti Hoyt [23:14]:
"30% of the federal workforce happens to be veterans. So not only the VA being threatened with a 20% cut in staff, but just throughout the federal workforce, there are so many veterans."

Hoyt explains that the movement seeks to shame individuals into rejecting Tesla products as a form of protest against Musk’s policies, linking economic decisions directly to broader ideological battles.

Patti Hoyt [26:35]:
"I want to shame you into not buying a Tesla. I want to shame you into dumping stock."

The Future of Musk's Political Influence and Business

Remnick and Lepore speculate on the potential divergence between Musk and Trump, predicting a possible fallout that could see Musk relocating to Europe to escape political pressures and further entrench his oenological visions.

Jill Lepore [16:10]:
"I wouldn't be surprised if he moved to Europe. I think he needs to mix it up and enjoy the arrows that come at him so that he can use those arrows to construct a vision of himself as invincible."

Reflections on Institutional Defiance

The episode also touches upon Harvard University's stance against the Trump administration, with Lepore commending the institution's principled stand as a rare act of defiance that contrasts sharply with Musk’s triviality.

Jill Lepore [17:12]:
"I think Musk is probably surprised at witnessing an act of real principle and courage and defiance that comes from a sincere commitment to deeply held, centuries-old values."

Lepore admires Harvard’s actions but critiques Musk for being engrossed in superficial interactions, such as his "goofy, snarky four-word tweets," highlighting a disconnect between his monumental actions and personal demeanor.

Conclusion

In the concluding segments, Remnick underscores the mounting conflict between Musk’s DOGE-driven initiatives and his business interests, particularly Tesla. He highlights the dual impact of these ideological battles on both the corporate and personal fronts, suggesting that Musk’s role in shaping future federal policies and corporate landscapes remains precarious.

David Remnick [21:46]:
"But Musk's role in DOGE and his support of far-right movements around the world are now coming into conflict with some of his business interests, in particular with Tesla."

The episode wraps up by pondering the sustainability of Musk’s intertwined political and business ambitions, leaving listeners to contemplate the broader implications of his influence on technology, politics, and society.

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Notable Quotes:

• Jill Lepore [05:34]:
  "He's a bumbling fool. And the whole point of Hitchhiker's Guide... is an indictment of the mega wealthy."

• Patti Hoyt [27:50]:
  "It doesn’t bother me that I believe they're wrong, but... there’s nothing I can do to convince them otherwise."

• David Remnick [22:34]:
  "Our producer, Adam Howard, spoke with an organizer about how she got involved with the movement."

This comprehensive exploration offers listeners a deep dive into the complex interplay between Elon Musk’s science fiction-inspired ambitions and his controversial political alignments, illuminating the profound effects on his ventures and the broader societal landscape.

Transcript

[WNYC Studios]

Listener Support WNYC Studios this is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

[David Remnick]

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. It may take us many years to understand fully what's happening in America right now. This attempt by Donald Trump, as well as Elon Musk, Stephen Miller, the authors of Project 2025 and so many others, to radically reshape this country and its institutions as quickly and as brutally as possible. We've been talking a lot on the Radio Hour about the colossal upheaval of the first hundred days of the Trump administration and what could be more important. But today, the subject that we're going to drill down on is an appraisal of Elon Musk and his vision of our future. Of the many politicians who have tried to position themselves as Trump's heir and closest advisor, really only Elon Musk rivals the boss. And in some ways he exceeds him. There's that astronomical untold wealth. There's his delight in trolling his enemies and his contempt for government and its rules. And there's a deep belief in him that what's good for Elon Musk is precisely what matters. And yet, the thing is, Elon Musk is not just a chaos agent, as he's sometimes called. He's driven by a distinct ideology or at least a clear set of obsessions. And to find out more about this, I called up Jill Lepore, the best selling author of these Truths and Other Works of History. And I called her because she's written about Elon Musk for the New Yorker. And she's also produced a podcast about him called X Man. She's a professor at Harvard University and a staff writer at the New Yorker. We spoke last week. Jill Elon Musk is only recently a MAGA figure. He supported Obama. He supported Biden in 2020. He was strong on climate change and the shift away from fossil fuels. So to what degree do you understand him as a self interested agent where Trump is concerned, or is he really sincere in his turn to the right?

[WNYC Studios]

I think Musk is a man of many costumes and he likes to play roles. He is a person who is very immersed in the world of video gaming and comic books and science fiction and Hollywood superhero movies. Wearing the dark MAGA hat and the Occupy Mars black T shirt is as much a costume and a performance as. As it is an expression of sincere political commitment. So Musk went to Stanford in 1995 and for a PhD program. He left after a couple days to start his first company in order to raise funds for their ventures, they were all encouraged to promise to be altering the destiny of the species. And that sense of the messianic language that was required to get funding from venture capitalists. I think a kind of fully grown up person would engage in that and know that it was bullshit. I'm sorry, this is radio. A fully grown up person would engage in that and know that's just nonsense. This is what you have to do to get money. But I think a very young, impressionable, sort of arrested development person who's grown up on superhero culture might really come to believe that. That they are better than anyone else on the planet and that the future destiny of humanity is something that they hold in their hands uniquely. And if I want to be a messiah, there have to be existential risks that I can save humanity from. So they have to keep propagating new risks. So, you know, then it's AI. And Musk is determined to either defeat it or create it, or depending on the time, you know, in our consciousness. I think most Americans, certainly most people around the world, didn't start paying attention to Musk until he decided that the existential risk to the future of humanity and civilization was Twitter itself in 2022. And then he decides to buy it to defeat the woke mind virus. And at that point, people start paying attention to him. But that's just the latest in a list of existential risks that he and he alone can fix. And so it's soon after that that he hitches himself to Trump before he.

[David Remnick]

Gets to anything ideological. What Musk encounters first and takes very seriously is the pop culture that he's immersed in. The science fiction, the comics. Talk to me a little bit about that immersion in pop culture. And in fact, you compare Musk at one point to Batman himself.

[WNYC Studios]

The thing about it, as a historian, that really pisses me off. This is pedantic and narrow, but, like, he misreads everything that he reads. He miswatches it, all, right? Like, he looks at Batman and he kind of wants to be the bad Batman, you know, the Christopher Nolan. The Christopher Nolan, Right, the one who dresses in black. You know, the guy who is just a fascist ruling over the city of Gotham because the people are so stupid and such losers.

[David Remnick]

Yeah, he's not the Adam West. He's not the Adam West Batman.

[WNYC Studios]

He's not Adam West. He's also not the Batman of the 1930s comic book, you know, who was really created in 1939 to fight fascism. It's A weird underwater world to try to be in the mind of Elon Musk. Or even just the let's conquer Mars in the spirit of H.G. wells. You know, H.G. wells was a critic of British imperialism. All of his colonization stories were anti imperialist cautionary tales.

[David Remnick]

This isn't a reference that I'm intimately familiar with, to be honest, but some of our listeners will be. And you say this is critical to understanding Elon Musk. Let's listen.

[WNYC Studios]

Sevard Bibelbrocks now knows himself to be the most important being in the entire universe, something he had hitherto only suspected. It is said that his birth was marked by earthquakes, tidal waves, tornadoes, firestorms, the explosion of three neighbouring stars. However, the only person by whom this is said is Beeble Brox himself. And there are several possible theories to explain this. Douglas Adams Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which started as a BBC radio drama in 1978, it was broadcast to Pretoria, was where Musk was a little kid. So Musk talks about a very consistent kind of how I became Elon Musk. Story that he has told for the whole of his adult life was that when he was 12, he had a kind of existential crisis about being human. And he, you know, he read Spinoza and Nietzsche and he didn't really understand them, but then he read Hitchhiker's Guide, there's a book version as well, and it helped him to understand the meaning of life and he dedicated himself to exploring the cosmos and bringing the light of human consciousness to the stars. And this truly drives me insane, but.

[David Remnick]

It'S all about world historical genius who's gonna usher humanity into a new era, isn't it?

[WNYC Studios]

Yeah, it's Zaphod Beeblerox, who is the captain of the Heart of Gold spaceship, which is what Musk has promised his first spaceship to Mars will be called in honor of Beeblebrox. Beeblebrox. He's a goon. He is the most self deluded, grandiose idiot. He's a bumbling fool. And the whole point of Hitchhiker's Guide, which is itself a spoof of Isaac Asimov's foundation series, which it does not take seriously, is an indictment of the mega wealthy.

[David Remnick]

And you're saying Musk missed the irony of the entire book.

[WNYC Studios]

So one of the details I came across in doing the work for this series, I found an old auction notice for the typewriter that Douglas Adams used to write the scripts in 19, like around 1976, 1977. And it has a Sticker on the side, a bumper sticker on the side of the typewriter that reads, end apartheid. Like, think about that. Think about Douglas Adams writing anti cruel guide in the middle of the 1970s. The Anti Apartheid movement, the boycotting is going on. It's a really strong movement. It's not as powerful as it'd become in the 80s. It's not like everybody who's got an antipartheid sticker on their typewriter in 1977, but Douglas Adams. Adams does.

[David Remnick]

But how did Musk respond to the apartheid all around him?

[WNYC Studios]

I mean, in fairness, Musk left South Africa at the age of 17, and you could easily conclude that that was in order to avoid compulsory military service in defense of the regime. And I think that's the charitable way to understand his desire to leave the country.

[David Remnick]

How did he come to be so enraged by what he called the Woke Mind virus? Was that out of personal experience with his kid?

[WNYC Studios]

There's this famous interview he gave with Jordan Peterson in which he said, you know, in 2020, during the pandemic, he was sort of pressured into approving puberty blockers for one of his children, and he greatly regretted it. And now he would say, you know, the Woke Mind virus killed my son. His daughter, Vivian Wilson, essentially disowned him. And she has said, you can't blame this on me. That's a story that he tells that makes him feel happier about himself, like there was something virtuous in his mind about his rightward turn, but he had always been this way. So it's a family saga. I don't have any particular insight into that.

[David Remnick]

You know, Jill, you mentioned these existential crises that Musk wants to solve, and one of which is getting human beings off the planet and settling in space. This motivates his interest in privatizing space travel and, of course, the creation of his company, SpaceX, even the name of which seems to be ripped out of an old science fiction paperback.

[WNYC Studios]

Yeah, there actually, there's like a whole really lovely genealogy of science fiction stories about the commercialization of other planets, all of which, again, are cautionary tales, but that Musk reads as instruction manuals. But there's a kind of on the farther side of the far right embrace of the economic opportunities and the military prospects of space exploration. So I think that turns a lot of people in Silicon Valley toward Trump because he seems to be somewhat open to it. He doesn't know very much about it, but he is, of course, delighted by the attention of billionaires. So I think there's A kind of courtship that begins to happen there. And then, of course, Musk earns a great many contracts through SpaceX, including under the HS of Space Force. There's an interview where Musk says something like, it takes as long to do the paperwork to build a rocket as it takes to actually build the rocket, and so becomes really committed to the idea that there's regulatory excess that can only be eliminated through Trump's victory. So when I hear Musk say at those rallies, we're at a fork in the road. The future of human civilization depends on this election. He means SpaceX. He means, I need the federal government to, without any restriction, delay impedement. I need to take these rockets to colonize Mars, and that's only gonna happen through Trump. And part of this larger project of Doge is to divert funds that are used to serve the poor, the needy, the sick, immigrants, anyone who might be vulnerable and not worthy. Somehow, I think, in how Musk likely sees the world, their needs ought to be put very much at the back of the line so that we can bring humanity to space, and also so that we can pursue unfettered the development of artificial intelligence. And this also relies on the quantification of human needs, whereby we shouldn't feed the poor, we shouldn't clothe the naked, we shouldn't heal the sick, we should let them all suffer and die because their needs, those are minuscule compared to the calculation of the needs of the billions of humans that will one day ever live if we can gain escape velocity from planet Earth. That is, in fact, the math that lies behind Doge. And that has nothing to do with democracy or citizenship or decency or any set of beliefs or commitments or moral clarity about the nature of the human condition.

[David Remnick]

But I think a lot of Trump voters, traditional Republicans, think of Doge think of Musk's efforts purely as cost cutting in a way. I think what you're suggesting is that the ideological component here, which is far darker, is being snuck in through the back door.

[WNYC Studios]

I remember in 2009 or so, I went to a Tea Party rally in Washington, and I remember chatting with some very nice people from Texas, and I was asking them what they had seen while they were in D.C. for this rally. It was like a Glenn Beck, like, 912 rally or something like that. I said, did you know? Did you go to the Smithsonian? Did you see the monument? Did you go to the Jefferson? Like, did you go to the Memorial, Lincoln Memorial? Like, what'd you do? And they were like, no, we would never go to Any of those places, they would defile us. Their hatred for the federal government extended to the buildings that were built with taxpayer money to celebrate American ideas, American ingenuity, American art, American beauty, American music. I was really staggered by that, that there was just such a strong hatred of the. And I do think that's not an ideology, that's an appetite. That's an emotional response to something. But I do think that Musk's doge taps into some of that.

[David Remnick]

To what degree do they overlap in their interests? I understand that Trump loved getting hundreds of millions of dollars for his campaign, but when it comes down to what you just explained about the way Elon Musk sees the world in the future and what the interests of the government should be or should not be, I wonder how much it overlaps or not with what a guy whose background is not Musk's, but is in fact in New York real estate and reality television. How do they overlap at all?

[WNYC Studios]

If you publicly, as an elected official, disavow the threat of climate change, but instead propose to purchase or conquer Greenland and Canada, which are great real estate opportunities, given the reality of climate change, then you are actually engaging in a kind of calculation that is as cynical and as indifferent to human suffering as is muskism.

[David Remnick]

And I know that historians don't like to predict the future any more than halfway decent journalists wouldn't. But Musk and Trump are going to break up fairly soon, either for reasons of conflict or because Musk's attention will wander elsewhere. Where will Musk go next?

[WNYC Studios]

I wouldn't be surprised if he moved to Europe. I wouldn't be surprised if he moved to Germany or Italy. I think he needs to mix it up and enjoy the arrows that come at him so that he can use those arrows to construct a vision of himself as invincible. And I think that there's a vincibility around kind of leaving Washington with his tail between his legs. He's gonna need to exert his virility in a very public way. And I don't think he's gonna be like, doing battles in state elections like in Wisconsin again. I think that moment is over.

[David Remnick]

We're talking the week, of course, that Harvard University decided to, in a sense, stand up to the Trump administration. It had some very difficult decisions to make. Jill, you've taught at Harvard for a long time, so I can't help but ask, what do you think Elon Musk makes of that situation?

[WNYC Studios]

I think Musk is probably surprised at witnessing an act of real principle and courage and defiance that comes from a sincere commitment to deeply held, centuries old values. That is a rare thing in our world. It is no part of his experience of the world insofar as I have ever witnessed it, and it's something to be cherished. I am full of admiration for that act. I hope it is emulated. I hope it has vast consequences. It may not. It's easy from where I sit in Cambridge to think that Harvard is the center of the world and it is not. And yet it is a really momentous decision and I can't see Musk lives in the world of the trivial. As profound as the consequences of his decisions are, he is a deeply trivial human being.

[David Remnick]

Tell me what you mean by that.

[WNYC Studios]

He delights in, you know, the goofy, snarky four word tweet, you know, with an emoticon after it. He's a trivial person.

[David Remnick]

Jillapour thank you so much.

[WNYC Studios]

Thanks so much David.

[David Remnick]

Jill Lepore is a Professor of American History and of Law at Harvard University. Her podcast about Elon Musk is called X Man and you can read [e-mail] on so many subjects. And you can also subscribe to the new [e-mail] this is the New Yorker Radio Hour with more to come.

[WNYC Studios]

WNYC Studios is supported by the United Nations Refugee Agency.

[Patti Hoyt]

Imagine if every person in Texas, New York and Florida suddenly lost their home. That still wouldn't equal the 120/million people who've fled war and persecution. Right now the UN refugee agency is responding in 136 countries, but as violence escalates, your help is needed. Donate today and critical relief will reach a refugee family within 72 hours. While we can't rebuild their home overnight, your gift will provide food, shelter and hope for the Future. Go to unrefugees.org donation to make your gift.

[WNYC Studios]

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[Patti Hoyt]

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[WNYC Studios]

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[Nicole Phelps]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported by Gobbler, the meal kit delivery service created by busy professionals. For busy professionals, Gobble meal kits are pre prepped. That means less work, less waste and less mess in your kitchen while keeping all the love that makes a homemade meal special. In as little as 15 minutes each week, choose from over 30 meal options including lean and clean, vegetarian, classic and more recipes and they'll deliver them right to your doorstep. Give Gobble a try today with a special offer. Visit gobble.com radiohour to get started with $120 off across your first four boxes. That's gobble.com radiohour WNYC Studios is supported by Quince. Hi, I'm New Yorker cartoonist Jason Adam Katzenstein, and I'm feeling the spring travel itch. Now, you may suspect that cartoonists only travel to that one desert island with a palm tree sticking up, but in fact, we go all around the world. And when I go around the world, I always do it with my Quint's Carry on suitcase. I can fit all my sketchbooks in there, plus lightweight shirts and shorts from $30 pants for any occasion, and comfortable lounge sets. And I love to lounge. The best part is that all Quint's Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quint's cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quints only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices, along with premium fabrics and finishes. This is something that I love. For your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from quints. Go to quints.com radiohour for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U I N C E.com radiohour to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com radiohour.

[David Remnick]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick, and we've been speaking today about Elon Musk. Earlier in the show, I spoke with historian Jill Lepore about the influence of science fiction on Musk, his business interest in space travel and how it relates to his work in Doge, slashing federal government programs to the ground. But Musk's role in Doge and his support of far right movements around the world are now coming into conflict with some of his business interests, in particular with Tesla. The people who tend to buy electric cars are usually quite well heeled and at least somewhat progressive. That had been the case for a long time. But now Tesla sales seem to be dropping and there are sizable protests at dealerships, and they're kind of getting under Donald Trump's skin.

[WNYC Studios]

Also gave us a directive to prosecute the people who are going after Tesla.

[Patti Hoyt]

To the fullest extent of the law.

[WNYC Studios]

Some of the greatest police work I've seen. Within the next 24 hours, you're going to be seeing another huge arrest on a Tesla dealership president, and that that person will be looking at at least 20 years in prison with no negotiations. That's great. That will stop it cold.

[David Remnick]

One of these grassroots efforts goes by the hashtag Tesla Takedown. Our producer, Adam Howard, spoke with an organizer about how she got involved with the movement.

[Patti Hoyt]

My name's Patti Hoyt. I live in north of San Francisco in a small town called Nevada. And although in the first administration, I did organize rallies and protests, quite a few, I've had a break. And very recently, a friend of mine who's a veteran reached out to me and wanted to bring to light the plight of veterans. And knowing my background, he asked if I was interested. And being the daughter of a veteran, sure. And having to choose, there's so many things going on. What am I going to focus on? I selected veterans and immigrants is where I'm going to put my energy. And I had attended a couple of Tesla takedowns and thought, okay, this looks like the perfect thing to do.

[Adam Howard]

And was it the cuts to the VA as part of Doge or.

[Patti Hoyt]

I'm sorry, yes, yes, that's exactly the fact that, you know, 30% of the federal workforce happens to be veterans. So not only the VA being threatened with a 20% cut in staff, but just throughout the federal workforce, there are so many veterans.

[Adam Howard]

You mentioned being part of protests during the first Trump administration. From your perspective, are the vibes and the sort of atmosphere at these protests different in any way than they were.

[Nicole Phelps]

In the first term?

[Patti Hoyt]

I would say there seems to be more anger. And what I'm encountering, who I am encountering this time around, is a lot of people that didn't protest then, have never protested before, and now are out there.

[Adam Howard]

What do you think is motivating these people who are getting on the streets for the first time?

[Patti Hoyt]

Fear and anger. That and I think perhaps the speed of which all of this is coming, I can't even keep track of what next. I think it was different in the first term that it took longer for people to get energized. They felt they had more time. But we're not the only ones. In my little town, Cort of Madera is where the dealership is in our county, there's a protest at noon on Saturdays, ours at three, and then another done on Sundays at two. So different groups are coming out at various times, just providing that place where people can come and bring, yes, some funny signs, but also, you know, just collectively, here we are all together feeling this one Way.

[Adam Howard]

I'm sure you've seen the reports about Tesla stock taking a hit. The sales apparently are down 9% this year in the US even though the EV market is growing. What do you make of the impact that these protests are having? Do you feel like these protests deserve some of the credit for the hit that Tesla's taking?

[Patti Hoyt]

Yes. I don't think that the people who protest are the only ones that hate him and what he stands for. But I go with the I want to shame you into not buying a Tesla. I want to shame you into dumping stock. I'd love you to sell your Tesla, but I understand that that's not possible. They're not even taking cybertrucks as trade ins. Tesla itself. So I think it's. You're embarrassed to drive a Tesla precisely because you're now associated with Musk and his fascism. And it goes beyond Musk, of course. But in terms of oligarchy and billionaires, that's what my goal is. And I absolutely believe that we've made a difference in people saying, no, that's not. I don't want people to flip me off as I drive. I don't want people to give the Nazi salute as I drive by in my Tesla.

[Adam Howard]

Right. I'm sure you've seen the same videos I have of Tesla's being smashed. There's Tesla's being set on fire. A little bit more extreme. How worried are you about Tesla takedown being associated with more maybe violent action or vandalism, that sort of thing.

[Patti Hoyt]

It doesn't bother me that I believe they're wrong, but. And there's nothing I can do to convince them otherwise. I do think it detracts. You don't want that. You don't ever want violence in the name of your protests to happen. And I don't encourage it.

[Adam Howard]

The President of the United States is making some pretty extreme threats to protesters, talking about domestic terrorism. Among the folks that you are doing these protests with, are there fears about reprisals coming from the government or are they basically tuning that stuff out?

[Patti Hoyt]

Oh, no, they're afraid. Which isn't to say I'm not, but, and I can cite quite recently, somebody no longer wanting to have their name associated with it because of that fear. But given attendance and such at these protests, it doesn't seem to be stopping anybody from coming. And I only see a couple of people who wear masks to try to hide their identity. It's a scary place we all find ourselves in, and I won't stop. But I am afraid there have been.

[Adam Howard]

At least rumors that Elon Musk might be stepping away from all of his Doge activity. We spoke about the financial impact that this has had on his business. I'm curious, where do you see this all ending in terms of Musk's role in the federal government? And this Tesla Takedown movement, it doesn't.

[Patti Hoyt]

Undo the damage he's done just by saying he stepped away. Nor do I believe he actually would step away. I mean, by news account reports, he's not even the leader of Doge. But who believes that? Or I don't believe that I should say, but even if it were true, you don't just not punish someone for the damage he's doing.

[Adam Howard]

Patti, thank you so much for taking time to speak to me. I really appreciate it.

[Patti Hoyt]

Okay, take care.

[David Remnick]

Patty Hoyt is an organizer in the movement known as Tesla Takedown and she spoke with the Radio Hour's Adam Howard. That's the New Yorker Radio Hour for today. I'm David Remnick. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

[WNYC Studios]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell and Jared Paul. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul and Ursula Sommer. With guidance from Emily Bottin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan and Alejandra Deckett.

[David Remnick]

And we had additional help this week from Jake Loomis.

[WNYC Studios]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the CHA Endowment Fund.

[Nicole Phelps]

Chloe, you know what I think the world really needs?

[Patti Hoyt]

What?

[Nicole Phelps]

Old fashioned.

[Patti Hoyt]

The people want it.

[WNYC Studios]

The people have asked for it.

[Patti Hoyt]

The people are getting yes. Everyone's in luck. I'm Nicole Phelps, the director of Vogue Runway, and I'm excited to announce that the run through is coming to Tuesdays. The run through is now going to be twice a week, every Tuesday. Join me and the Vogue Runway team as we dig into the latest fashion news.

[WNYC Studios]

Thursdays will still be Chloe and Shoma talking about the latest in fashion and culture, per usual.

[Nicole Phelps]

And Tuesdays, more fashion, fashion, fashion.

[Patti Hoyt]

The run through with Vogue is available wherever you get your podcasts.