The New Yorker Radio Hour Episode Title: How the Culture Wars Came to the Catholic Church
Release Date: March 21, 2023
Host: David Remnick
Guests: Paul Elie (writer, senior fellow at Georgetown University), Bishop Frank Caggiano (Bishop of Bridgeport), Professor Kathleen Cavaney (Boston College Law School)

Episode Overview

This episode explores how the “culture wars”—controversies surrounding social, moral, and political issues—have manifested inside the Catholic Church, especially during the decade of Pope Francis’s leadership. Host David Remnick is joined by Paul Elie, who recently profiled the Pope for The New Yorker, Bishop Frank Caggiano, and Professor Kathleen Cavaney. Together, they examine Francis’s legacy, the deepening divisions among clergy and laity, the question of women’s roles, and the continuing friction between “culture warrior” bishops and those embracing a more open “culture of encounter.”

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pope Francis: An Era of Openness and Change

• Francis’s Impact
  • Paul Elie outlines Francis’s notable achievements:
    • Strong advocacy for environmental protection and social justice (01:26)
    • Outreach beyond Christianity and towards the poor
    • Reforms to Vatican governance and diverse appointments
    • Most importantly: an unmistakable spirit of openness after decades of rigid leadership.
    • Quote: “A church that felt closed and locked down...is now open and showing signs of change.” (C, 01:47)

2. The Intensity of Opposition

• Traditionalist Backlash
  • Remnick highlights the unique bluntness and even contempt in the opposition to Pope Francis compared to previous popes. (02:03)
  • Elie describes:
    • Vitriolic public and anonymous letters from bishops and cardinals.
    • Conservative media platforms like EWTN branding Francis as a heretic.
    • Irony: Francis’s very openness allows this criticism to flourish.
    • Quote: “They’re taking advantage of the open church...and using that openness to openly criticize him.” (C, 03:45)

3. Generational Leadership and Balance: Bishop Frank Caggiano

• Papal Contrasts and Complementarity

  • Bishop Caggiano explains how John Paul II emphasized doctrinal clarity, Benedict made doctrine accessible, and Francis brings a focus on “living the truth in love.” Each adds a vital part to an integrated vision for the Church.
  • Quote: “When you hold them together, you’re painting a fuller picture of the human condition...in mercy, in acceptance, in welcome.” (D, 05:13)

• Francis and LGBTQ Catholics

  • Francis has not changed doctrine but prioritizes “pastoral outreach” and actual engagement with LGBTQ Catholics.
  • Caggiano notes a persistent internal debate: “How do you do that...without necessarily abandoning what the Church has held as its teachings?” (D, 07:02)

• Women in Leadership

  • Discussion of milestones, like Sister Natalie Becquart becoming the first voting female member of the Synod of Bishops. (08:52)
  • Caggiano is cautious about prospects for women in ordained roles—does not foresee women priests or bishops any time soon.
  • Quote: “I do not imagine that women would be called to ordained priesthood in the Catholic Church. And...it is not going to happen...in my lifetime.” (D, 09:40)

4. The Role of Culture Wars: Prof. Kathleen Cavaney’s Analysis

• Historical Roots: Culture of Life vs. Culture of Death

  • Cavaney traces how John Paul II’s theology—defining Church values in opposition to “a culture of death”—became fused with American political divides (Republican = culture of life, Democrat = culture of death). (15:13)
  • Quote: “That’s how it got configured in the US: Culture of life, Republican Party; culture of death, Democratic Party.” (B, 16:10)

• Culture Warriors vs. Culture of Encounter

  • She identifies division among American bishops as not simply left/right, but between “culture warriors” and “culture of encounter” bishops—those who enforce culture war lines and those who follow Francis in prioritizing personal encounter and accompaniment. (13:55, 17:32)
  • Cavaney argues Francis’s “culture of encounter” responds to moral nihilism (the deeper problem that “nothing matters”) rather than just moral relativism. (17:55)
  • Quote: “Pope Francis, culture of encounter, I am going to encounter you. I am going to say that you matter in your wholeness is a response to the deeper problem of moral nihilism.” (B, 18:29)

• Francis and US Bishops

  • US bishops’ resistance, she says, is partly shaped by their immersion in American political culture, making it difficult to see Francis’s initiatives as a continuation (not repudiation) of past papal teachings. (19:02)
  • She contends Francis “de-centers academic theology” and insists faith is lived encounter, not just recitation of doctrine. Quote: “The Church is the living faith of the dead, not the dead faith of the living.” (B, 20:46)

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Paul Elie:
  • “A church that felt closed and locked down after years of fairly authoritarian leadership...is now open and showing signs of change.” (01:47)
  • “They’re taking advantage of the open church...and using that openness to openly criticize him.” (03:45)
• Bishop Caggiano:
  • “When you hold them together, you’re painting a fuller picture of the human condition...in mercy, in acceptance, in welcome.” (05:13)
  • “It’s clear...the difficulty has been is how do you do that in a way where we’re not just giving lip service...but also we engage in the issues that really burn in their hearts...without necessarily abandoning what the Church has held as its teachings for centuries?” (07:02)
  • “I do not imagine that women would be called to ordained priesthood in the Catholic Church...It is not going to happen in...the next 20 years or 25 years that I have left.” (09:40)
• Professor Kathleen Cavaney:
  • “That’s how it got configured in the US: Culture of life, Republican Party; culture of death, Democratic Party.” (16:10)
  • “Pope Francis, culture of encounter, I am going to encounter you. I am going to say that you matter in your wholeness, is a response to the deeper problem of moral nihilism.” (18:29)
  • “The Church isn’t dead. You know, the Church is the living faith of the dead, not the dead faith of the living.” (20:46)

Important Segments with Timestamps

• Introduction of the topic, Pope Francis’s key changes: (00:11–02:03)
• Discussion of opposition and traditionalist backlash: (02:03–03:53)
• Interview with Bishop Frank Caggiano, generational leadership, approach to doctrine: (04:01–06:33)
• Women’s leadership in the Church, candid discussion of limitations: (08:08–09:50)
• Professor Kathleen Cavaney on the fusion of US culture wars with Church identity: (11:32–17:07)
• Culture warriors vs. culture of encounter bishops, and Francis’s challenge to nihilism: (13:55–18:36)
• Francis’s decentering of academic theology, opposition from US bishops: (19:02–20:52)

Tone and Language

The episode maintains a reflective, occasionally urgent tone, with language that is analytical but accessible. Guests speak candidly about controversy, while emphasizing the human aspects of faith, leadership, and division inside Catholicism. The tone remains respectful—even when discussing sharp internal conflict—and committed to intellectual honesty and complexity.

Summary

For those who haven’t listened, this episode is an incisive journey into how ideological divisions, fostered partially by previous popes and amplified by US partisan frames, now challenge Pope Francis’s efforts to reorient the Church toward openness, encounter, and mercy. Despite—and because of—Francis’s reforms, the culture wars have found fresh, sometimes ferocious, expression within the halls of the Vatican and in American dioceses, raising searching questions about doctrine, leadership, and the path forward for the world’s largest Christian community.