The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: Into the Woods with Scott Carrier

Date: September 25, 2018
Host: David Remnick
Producer/Correspondent: Scott Carrier

Overview of the Episode

This episode investigates the conflict surrounding the Pacific Northwest Trail (PNT) in the remote Yak Valley of Montana. Unlike the typical battles pitting developers against environmentalists, here, nature lovers are at odds with other nature lovers, as the newly designated national hiking trail poses a threat to one of the smallest and most vulnerable grizzly bear populations in the United States. Scott Carrier travels to the region to explore the complexities, motivations, and tensions behind efforts to protect both wild places and the desire to experience them.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Pacific Northwest Trail: Scope and Challenge

• Congress designated the PNT as a National Scenic Trail in 2009.
• The trail stretches 1,200 miles from Glacier National Park, Montana, to the Pacific Ocean in Washington, crossing grizzly bear habitats and arduous terrain (03:00).
• Hiking the trail is both physically and mentally challenging; the first 2018 thru-hiker, Justin Schmidt, describes the experience as:

  "Miserably exciting, painstaking guinea pigging...a lot of timber down and a ton of snow." — Justin Schmidt (02:46)

2. Grizzlies: Dangerous to Humans, More Endangered by Us

• The Yak Valley is home to fewer than 25 grizzly bears, one of the most endangered populations in the lower 48 states (05:22).
• Bears that come into conflict with humans—often habituated to food—are likely to be killed as a result (04:16).

  "If a bear gets in a conflict with a human, it usually means that that bear is removed...relocation is often a death sentence." — Natalie Dawson, wildlife biologist (04:16)

3. Two Environmental Philosophies: Romanticism vs. the Land Ethic

• Romanticism, embodied by PNT founder Ron Strickland, sees trail-building as a way for people to fall in love with nature (09:07–09:24).

  "When I'm out here, it's romantic and something everybody should have an opportunity to share. And I think we need more romance in life." — Ron Strickland (09:20)

• Land Ethic, represented by Aldo Leopold (quoted via Carrier) and Natalie Dawson, holds that the well-being of whole ecosystems should take precedence over individual human experiences (11:28).

  "Why do we have to illustrate that there is harm being done? If we know that the potential for harm exists, wouldn't we want to take the least harmful path in the first place?" — Natalie Dawson (11:28)

4. The Legal and Procedural Tangles

• The original environmental impact statement (EIS) in 1978 concluded that the trail would be too costly and threaten the Yak grizzlies; Congress at first declined (11:45).
• In 2009, the trail was approved as part of an omnibus bill—without updated environmental review, which Rick Bass asserts is illegal (13:08).

  "You can't make those kinds of decisions without an environmental analysis and an environmental impact statement. That's just a code of law." — Rick Bass (13:08)

5. Philosophical and Personal Clashes: Strickland vs. Bass

• Strickland views Bass as a 'NIMBY' (Not In My Backyard) activist who wants to keep the valley as he found it and accuses him of hypocrisy (15:30).

  "My project is less nimby...I think of him as a nimby person. You know, I actually like Rick Bass. I've known him for years, so I actually like him." — Ron Strickland (16:40)

• Bass admits his writing has drawn people to the valley but stands firm that his primary concern is the survival of the grizzlies:

  "This is about a population of an incredibly endangered species...I want somebody to tell me, how many more can we lose?" — Rick Bass (17:29)

6. Potential Solutions and Ongoing Impasse

• Bass proposes rerouting the trail along the Kootenai River, bypassing grizzly habitat, but this would align the trail with a busy road and railway—contradicting the standards of a National Scenic Trail (19:39).
• Charlie Carpenter of the Pacific Northwest Trail Association argues that in northern Montana, "a wilderness or near wilderness experience is going to put you in grizzly habitat" (19:39).
• Wayne Kazeworm of U.S. Fish and Wildlife stresses the unpredictability and complexity of balancing recreation with bear recovery:

  "It's not so much the trail. It is largely the people and the numbers of people associated with the trail...If it were up to me, and I only had bears to consider, I might choose not to have the trail at all." — Wayne Kazeworm (21:30–22:32)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Romanticism and Nature

  "Not the news we hear every day about some kind of divisions. And I'll tell you, this family doing this, that's my idea of America. And I have provided that for them." — Ron Strickland (08:02)

• On the Gravity of Endangered Species

  "It's like Noah's Ark. It's biblical. I want somebody to tell me, how many more can we lose?...I haven't heard anybody tell me." — Rick Bass (17:29)

• On the Dilemma of Conservation and Access

  "We create and protect public lands where we can go fall in love with the beauty of nature and wildness. But then just by being there, we end up killing it. We kill the thing we love." — Scott Carrier (23:50)

Important Timestamps

• 01:00–03:10 — Introduction to the PNT, its route, and current trail conditions
• 03:40–05:40 — The status and peril of the Yak grizzlies
• 06:47–09:24 — Ron Strickland’s vision and the romantic underpinnings of the PNT
• 11:28 — Introduction of the "land ethic" and its implications
• 13:08–14:02 — Rick Bass on legal violations and increasing pressures
• 17:29–18:59 — Rick Bass on writing about the valley and owning the consequences
• 19:39–20:16 — Debate over potential trails and what constitutes "wilderness experience"
• 21:10–22:32 — Wildlife biologist Wayne Kazeworm on managing the competing demands
• 23:04–23:50 — Carrier's summation of the intractable conflict: environmental law versus human longing

Conclusion

This episode vividly frames the paradox at the heart of modern environmentalism: our impulse to protect and experience wilderness directly conflicts with the needs of the most vulnerable inhabitants of those wild places. The fate of the Pacific Northwest Trail and Yak grizzlies is left unresolved, entwined in legal, ethical, and philosophical complexities. As Scott Carrier notes, sometimes the best way to preserve wonder and wildness may be to leave it alone.