A (3:49)

It's so interesting to me, as somebody who as a writer really has only worked alone, that so many investigative people, Woodward and Bernstein is the classical example, but hardly alone. And even more and more lately, investigative reporters, whether it's in audio or newspapers, even at the New Yorker, we've had instances of this, which was never, never the case in the past. Work in teams. Why is that?

B (4:17)

I love working on teams. I agree. There is this sort of myth of the solo investigative reporter who's like a curmudgeon who doesn't let anyone peer into their notebooks. And it's a whole thing. But in my experience, especially when you're working so deeply on a story, I mean, some of the stories we've worked on for in the Dark we worked on for years. And of course you can't talk about them with anyone else. And so just the value of having a team where you can bounce ideas off of them and, you know, everybody on our team brings their own strengths. There are times where, you know, I'm not the right person to do a part of the story and someone else is. These are complex stories. I mean, the stories that we've done involve skills, you know, that not everybody on our team even has. You know, there's data reporting skills, there's public records request skills, there's audio production. And you know, really the hallmark of in the Dark for us is combining this in depth investigative journalism with powerful storytelling.

A (5:09)

You were talking about how in the first season you're looking at this terrible case of Jacob Web, who was 11 year old kid who was kidnapped and murdered in 89. It was not a secret. This was a well known story at the time. And it really occurs to me how very often in investigative reporting, you're not finding a story for the first time, but you're taking something that everybody thinks they know a lot about and then you go in much, much deeper. What caused you to fasten onto this story and go much deeper and really, completely, completely revolutionized the view of that case?

C (5:47)

Yeah, I think for us, like you said, that story had been covered in literally probably thousands of articles and TV spots. It had been a story that had been dominant in Minnesota for a really long time. But the question that we were interested in that story was actually a question that in all of that news coverage had never been asked. A lot of the coverage had asked questions like who kidnapped Jacob or what happened to Jacob, or what is the effect on Jacob's family or what is the effect on this community? And those are all really valid questions. But no one had actually ever asked the question of why has this case not been solved? Which is truly an investigative question. And that's the question that drove season one of our reporting. And once your question is different, everything about how you conduct the reporting and what you put out is different as well. Right.

A (6:33)

And then, Madeline, the amazing thing is, as you were finishing the first season, a man named Danny Heinrich confessed. So talk a little bit about the scramble that you had to go through to adjust your work and backfill and get things right.

B (6:49)

Yeah. So this was an unsolved case. I mean, that was the whole premise of the investigation. The word unsolved was critical. And then literally days before the first episode was going to come out. So the reporting is done, we're ready to go. We're headed into a long weekend, Labor Day weekend, if I remember correctly. We start hearing that this case is about to be solved and that the person who did it is confessing to the crime in exchange for what some would regard as a quite lenient plea deal for the murder and kidnapping of Jacob Wetterling. He essentially led them to the body A short distance from where he had been living in 1989, the man, Danny Heinrich. And so we've spent now months at that point with everybody involved, law enforcement, the family, people who'd been wrongfully suspected. And so the first thing that went through my mind is what is going through everyone else's minds upon learning this, you know, Jacob's parents learning that their son's body has been found. This man who's lived under a shadow for his whole life because he was wrongfully accused. But then, of course, I'm thinking, okay, now what does this mean for our story? And it really allowed for a lot of clarity because we knew mistakes that law enforcement had made. We knew, you know, doors they hadn't knocked on, people they hadn't taken seriously, accounts they had dismissed. But we didn't know what really happened. And so all of it was somewhat speculative before that. It was like, well, maybe if they had paid attention to this person, and maybe that would have helped them solve the crime. Now that we knew exactly what happened and how it happened, as fast as we're ever going to know, we could say no. That specific mistake, dismissing someone who saw a car that it turns out Danny Heinrich drove to kidnap Jacob Wetterling, that was a pivotal error, not just a potential error. And so it really allowed us to just go in and remove all of these kind of like, caveats in the reporting and the writing and strengthen it and say much more decisively, what were the mistakes that led to this being unsolved for so long? And then also, you know, our job as investigative reporters is to hold law enforcement accountable for decisions that they make in charging, prosecuting. And so that became a part of the story, too. Giving this deal to this man who confessed, that might result in him getting out of prison in his lifetime.

A (8:50)

Something that not a lot of people might understand is that a lot of what reporters do is between stories, they're looking out at the world and they're trying to figure out what's important, what's a story, what can be found out. And in season two, you explore the unjust prosecution of Curtis Flowers, who was tried six times for the same crime. And you had a da, Doug Evans, whose office was striking black people from juries, not just in Flowers case, but in almost every case his office seemed to handle. How did you decide on that story as opposed to everything else that's in your field of vision?

C (9:31)

So after season one, we just got thousands of tips from the public, like, literally thousands of people emailing us with story ideas and we read through every single one of them, and we actually started reporting out a handful of them. But all of us kept coming back to this one tip that we had gotten from this woman in Mississippi who had written to us saying, there's a man here, he's on death row. He's been tried six times for the same crime. The evidence against him is iffy at best, but he doesn't stand a chance, I think, is what the tip said. And that tip was just so much more compelling than anything else we were looking at. And I think what was so compelling about that tip to us wasn't just the wrongful conviction aspect, because, you know, wrongful convictions are interesting. But there was more to it than that. It was really the six times for the same crime thing that was really fascinating to us because it seemed to point at all of these larger questions of, like, what's going on with the prosecution? What's going on with the district attorney? What does this say about our system of criminal justice nationally, like, for everybody who enters into that system? And so that was what was so appealing to us about that tip. He had been tried six times for the same crime by the same district attorney. And it just made us wonder, what is going on in this case, and what does it say about our system that someone can get stuck in this unending cycle of being tried and having that conviction overturned and having been tried again and again? And so that was what really appealed to us about that story.

A (10:56)

How did you get to the fact of the bigotry of the DA's office?

B (11:01)

So for us, you know, the thing that stood out about the six trials was the reason he was having six trials was because of prosecutorial misconduct. So this was the ultimate kind of legal groundhog Day excess of prosecutorial power run amok, where all of a sudden you have no check. It's very clear in Curtis Flower's case how prosecutors have unchecked power, not just in his case, but in our country, that we have not set up a mechanism to deal with this. And so Curtis could keep having prosecutorial misconduct happen. He could keep getting a right to a new trial. He could have that new trial, and guess what would happen? The exact same thing would happen as happened in the previous trial. And one of the things that was happening in Curtis's case pretty consistently was that this prosecutor, Doug Evans, was striking black people disproportionately from the jury. And it wasn't as though the defense didn't notice it. The defense was calling it out over and over and over again, like, look, our client is getting tried by juries that are all white or mostly white, single time, practically here. And therefore, he is not getting a fair trial and he's getting convicted. In some cases, the jury deliberated for less than an hour before sentencing him to death. It was very clear that this was a problem in the case, but there was really no effective remedy. Because if your Curtis is like, okay, well, that was very blatant, that discrimination in jury selection. I have to still go through the whole trial, get convicted, get sentenced to death, then I'm going to play the appeal card and say, well, what happened in jury selection was extremely racist, and a court will agree with me. But then the only thing that's going to happen is I'm going to be tried again by the same prosecutor who's going to engage in the same tactic. And the whole time, Curtis is in prison or jail, so he's never getting out. It's like, even when he wins, he loses. And so what we wondered about was, okay, this is obviously happening in Curtis's case, but what about all the other cases that this DA is trying? You know, a really important question for us was, of course, whether or not this was a larger pattern by the district attorney to strike black people from the jury, not just in Curtis's case, but in all of his cases. And so to answer that, we partnered up with Will Kraft, a data reporter and a reporter on our team, Parker Yesko, to go to Mississippi and try to answer this question. What was happening in all the other cases in Doug Evans, District Samara.

A (13:12)

Sometimes when we're reporting, we get so much information that it's hard to handle. And I think in the Curtis Flowers case, you got an enormous. An enormous, for want of a better word, a data dump. And you have now a data project related to this. What's that all about? And what's its. What's its value?

C (13:30)

So when we started reporting this story, we realized very quickly that this was not a story that we could just report by calling some people on the phone. That's how we thought it would go initially, but that was an utter failure from the very beginning. And it became clear very quickly that we needed to actually go to Mississippi, move into a house there and start knocking on doors. And so that's how we conducted most of the reporting was literally spending days on end, weeks on end, months on end, just knocking on doors, talking to people, hearing what they knew about the case. And this actually held true also for the documents in the case. So often with documents you think that you can just, like, submit a request to an agency for, like, law enforcement records. But where we were reporting in Mississippi, this was not how things worked. The records were, in many cases, actually physical papers that were stored in really unlikely places. And so, you know, we were going to local jails, we were going to abandoned warehouses. We were going to, like, every clerk's office in the region, just gathering hundreds of thousands of pages of documents that we needed to report this story. And the biggest of those was the records on what had happened in jury selection in Doug Evans case.

B (14:45)

Case.

C (14:45)

Because we were interested in the question. We knew that Doug Evans had discriminated against black potential jurors in Curtis Flowers cases. But that raised the question of what is going on in all of the other cases that he has tried in his very long tenure as district attorney. And so we had to gather hundreds of thousands of pages of trial documents to understand what was going on. And so we actually sent our reporter, Parker Yesko, out to go from courthouse to courthouse to gather and scan all of these documents. And it took her months and hundreds of thousands of pages.

B (15:18)

I would say goodbye to Parker. We were all living together, and we lived there for nearly a year. So I would say goodbye to Parker in the morning. She would drive out to some clerk's office someplace, and she would spend eight hours in that clerk's office just scanning with the handheld scanner documents. And then she would return the next day and do the same thing. And she did that for months. And this was really important because this was the only way to get this information about what was really happening in jury selection in these cases. And so then we went into this big data reporting project and discovered a pattern of racial discrimination that goes well beyond Curtis case and jury selection. And that's ultimately one of the things that got the attention of the US Supreme Court in the case. Right.

A (15:55)

The case goes all the way to the Supreme Court. And now Curtis Flowers is a free man. You also had a chance to confront Doug Evans, the da. What was that like, Madeleine?

B (16:07)

You know, when you interview someone with a lot of power, and Doug Evans obviously fits into that category, I mean, there are certain things you're hoping for, specific things you want answered. But for me as a reporter, I also want a sense of how this person views their power. And to me, what was very effective in the conversation that Doug Evans offered to me, although it was relatively brief, was just his kind of almost like a nonchalance about his power. Like, oh, well, people don't really ask me a lot of questions. You ladies are coming into my office to chit chat and I don't have to tell you much of anything. And so I think what came through a lot in the interview is that he wasn't used to being questioned by journalists or members of the public at all. And he just didn't really feel like he had to be accountable to the public.

A (16:48)

Now I have to ask you a crucial question to both of you. Maybe we'll start with Samara. Season three is underway. You're reporting hard. How much can we reveal about that story?

C (16:59)

Very little about the specifics of the story of David. You know how I do.

A (17:04)

I agree with you 100%.

C (17:06)

Keep things close to the air.

A (17:07)

Damn right.

C (17:08)

I can say that it is definitely the most ambitious story we've ever worked on and we are extremely excited about it. We can't wait to bring it to listeners.

A (17:16)

I guess maybe the better question then for you, Madeline, is you've now had two seasons under your belt with your team, and they're extraordinary. And now you're working on a third, and the show has taken shape. It has a temperament and equality and obviously a voice and an intelligence. At this point, you must have a sense of what makes an in the dark story. What is it?

B (17:43)

I think it's a story that is investigative, which means that it's exposing powerful people or institutions engaged in wrongdoing that has actual harm on people's lives. But it's also a story that is gripping and compelling with twists and turns. That is something that people want to listen to. Because ultimately, you know, as investigative reporters, if we uncover lots of egregious wrongdoing but we can't make anybody care about it, then what's the point? And so I think that really our stories combine those two elements. And I should say, too, that's one of the reasons that it's so exciting to be working with the New Yorker, because I feel like we are kindred spirits in that sense. Among many others.

A (18:28)

In the Dark's Madeline Barron and Samara Freemark. I hope you'll subscribe and listen to the last two seasons of in the Dark via the link in this episode's notes or by searching for it wherever you're listening now.