Joan Baez Is Still Protesting

Summary

Podcast Summary: Joan Baez Is Still Protesting

Podcast: The New Yorker Radio Hour
Host: David Remnick
Guest: Joan Baez
Date: October 16, 2018

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Overview

This episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour is a rich, intimate conversation between host David Remnick and folk icon Joan Baez. They explore Baez's remarkable journey—from the rapid rise of her career in the 1960s to her current tour and the reflective, socially conscious themes of her latest (possibly final) album, Whistle Down the Wind. The episode features live performances by Baez and honest reflections on protest, political engagement, aging, and the meaning of legacy.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Making of Whistle Down the Wind (01:22–03:15)

• Conscious Bookending of Her Career:
  Baez reveals that Whistle Down the Wind was created to reflect her first album—simple and rooted in social consciousness.
  • "The very first thought about it was of some kind of bookend. Cause I'd already started thinking about pretty much winding down. It's like the first album. It's simple." (01:22, Baez)
  • She believes the songs "Another World" and "The President Sang Amazing Grace" give the album its essential depth.

On Songwriting and Creativity (02:03–02:56)

• Transition from Writing to Interpreting:
  Baez stopped writing songs and poetry over 25 years ago:
  • "I didn't quit it. It quit. Yeah, the channeling or whatever was going on just stopped." (02:18, Baez)
  • She now invests creative energy in painting when not touring.
• Candid Acceptance:
  She realized it was time to stop writing after penning a few subpar songs:
  • "I didn't realize it until I'd written to some couple that were so bad it was really time to move on." (02:38, Baez)

The Power of Song Selection and Interpretation (03:15–06:41)

• Collaboration Across Generations:
  Baez connects deeply with songs from younger artists, notably Anoni's "Another World," which she describes as voicing her own thoughts about environmental crisis.
  • "Somebody wrote down all of my thoughts in a simple song." (03:33, Baez)
  • She performs "Another World" live, suffusing the room with her trademark clarity and emotional force.

Political Moments Then and Now (06:52–08:43)

• Parallels and Distress:
  Baez compares past political activism to today's climate:
  • "It's the year of the bully. And to bully people now seems to be okay. To lying, no problem...That is the new normal." (07:32, Baez)
• Coping with Anxiety in Troubled Times:
  She shares the emotional toll this era takes:
  • "Oftentimes just hits in the night in the form of this terrible anxiety...it's not some neurotic anxiety. I'm anxious about the state of the world." (08:11, Baez)
  • Suggests: "Spend a lot of time in denial...keep the bar really low. Keep laughing." (08:36, Baez)

Reflections on Historic Moments (08:43–10:10)

• March on Washington, Woodstock, and Legacy:
  • On iconic performances: "Sometimes going into a, quote, historic moment, you know it, and other times you don't know it. In that case...we all knew it." (09:14, Baez)
  • Woodstock's scale impressed her only later: "It was after the fact that you realize...that's made a dent in people's lives forever." (09:45, Baez)

On "The President Sang Amazing Grace" and Presidential Empathy (10:12–15:41)

• Empathy in Political Leadership:
  Remnick and Baez reflect on President Obama's grace after the Charleston shooting.
  • Remnick: "...the idea of a president capable of showing empathy...as opposed to issue a tweet that depresses." (10:42, Remnick)
• Choosing the Song:
  Baez was moved to cover Zoe Mulford’s "The President Sang Amazing Grace" due to its emotional truth.
  • "This song just dropped out of the sky." (11:13, Baez)
• Connection to Obama:
  • "He was a statesman. He was smart, he was caring. And in spite of whatever the warts were...he was just somebody I liked, I like." (14:45, Baez)
  • Memorable anecdote about meeting Obama barefoot at his inauguration due to shrinking feet in the cold. (15:18–15:51, Baez)

Political Songwriting, Bob Dylan, and Old Grudges (15:54–17:40)

• Differing Approaches to Activism in Music:
  Baez embraced political songwriting; Dylan shunned its label.
  • "It was too beautiful. What we got from him, it doesn't matter. He wrote us our arsenal. And then we went on and did the work." (17:18, Baez)
• Letting Go of the Past:
  Old resentments toward Dylan "just absolutely melted" as she immersed herself in his music again. (16:29–17:40, Baez)

Adapting to an Aging Voice (17:40–19:57)

• Adapting Performance:
  • New arrangements allow other singers to hit high notes Baez can no longer reach.
  • "We took her [Grace] out of the box and put her on stage...She takes that note that I'll, you know, never ever be able to make again." (18:07–18:21, Baez)
• Physical Realities of Performing:
  Baez compares aging as a singer to athletes confronting their limits.
  • "There's a thing called cellular memory. And there are some songs that I can do...from cell memory." (18:31, Baez)
  • Medical check-up confirmed: "You're exactly where you should be at 71." (19:02, Baez)

Preparing for the Stage and Farewell (20:00–20:36)

• Readiness and Ease:
  She feels well prepared for concerts and lets go of minor on-stage slip-ups.
  • "There's nothing I fret about." (20:10, Baez)
• Sense of Closure:
  As Baez embarks on her Fare Thee Well tour, she hints at both a sense of peace and lingering humor about the unpredictability of live performance.

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Memorable Quotes

• "It's the year of the bully...That is the new normal." (07:32, Joan Baez)
• "I didn't quit it. It quit." (02:18, Joan Baez)
• "Somebody wrote down all of my thoughts in a simple song." (03:33, Joan Baez)
• "Keep the bar really low. Keep laughing." (08:36, Joan Baez)
• "We took her out of the box and put her on stage...She takes that note that I'll, you know, never ever be able to make again." (18:07–18:21, Joan Baez)
• "He [Obama] was a statesman. He was smart, he was caring...he was just somebody I liked, I like." (14:45, Joan Baez)
• "It was too beautiful. What we got from him, it doesn't matter. He wrote us our arsenal. And then we went on and did the work." (17:18, Joan Baez)

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Notable Timestamps

• Album Genesis: 01:22–03:15
• Songwriting Cessation: 02:11–02:56
• "Another World" Performance: 03:38–06:41
• Climate Change, Anxiety, and Denial: 06:52–08:43
• March on Washington & Woodstock: 08:43–10:10
• "The President Sang Amazing Grace" Performance: 12:00–14:31
• Obama Reminiscences: 14:31–15:51
• Reflections on Dylan: 15:54–17:40
• On an Aging Voice: 17:40–19:57
• Farewell Tour and Closing: 20:00–20:36

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Tone and Atmosphere

The discussion is warm, unvarnished, and deeply personal, marked by Baez’s characteristic wit, honesty, and humility. Remnick brings out both nostalgia and sharp contemporary resonance, resulting in a conversation full of wisdom and gentle humor.

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For Listeners New and Old

Whether you’re a lifelong fan or new to her story, this episode is a moving meditation on art, activism, and aging—anchored by Baez’s unwavering commitment to justice and beauty. Both her performances and reflections serve as a reminder that protest, in her hands, is an enduring act of hope.

Transcript

[David Remnick]

From one World Trade center in Manhattan. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of the New Yorker and WNYC Studios.

[Joan Baez]

Don't sing love songs. You'll wake my mother. She's sleeping here right by my side.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

That voice, that ringing, remarkable voice belongs to Joan Baez, circa 1960, singing the first song on her first album. Baez was just 19 at the time, and she would soon become one of the defining voices of folk music as it gained a much wider audience. In the 1960s, she performed with Pete Seeger, she sang We Shall Overcome at the March on Washington. She played woodstock. And in 1972, she joined a peace delegation to North Vietnam, where she was caught in the bombing of Hanoi. Baez is 77 years old now, and earlier this year she released a new album called Whistle down the Wind. And she said it might be her last album, but you never know. She joined me at the studio at wnyc. Tell me a little bit about Whistle down the Wind, how this album came to be what you want it to be. It seems to mirror in some way your very first record. In some ways, in a very conscious way, it does.

[Joan Baez]

I mean, the very first thought about it was of some kind of bookend. Cause I'd already started thinking about pretty much winding down. It's like the first album. It's simple. There is certainly a hint of social consciousness in it. They're pretty songs. A couple of them were written for me. I think the depth of it comes from the two songs which actually I'll sing today. One of them is Another World and the other is the President Sang Amazing Grace. Those are the powerhouses of songs. And without those, it would have been a really beautiful album, but wouldn't have the depth that it has.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

How do you feel about songwriting as opposed to doing covers lately? Is it more interesting to you to do covers?

[Joan Baez]

Well, first of all, you have to know that I quit songwriting about over 25 years ago. And I didn't quit it. It quit.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

It quit.

[Joan Baez]

It quit. Yeah, the channeling or whatever was going on just stopped. And I mean, I didn't really want to go to round robins and learn how write songs. You know, I just at that point started doing everybody else's music. And that's what I've done since then.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

Was that. Was that devastating in a way that you felt you weren't. That songs were not coming for wherever they come from?

[Joan Baez]

No, I didn't realize it until I'd written to some couple that were so bad it was really time to move On.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

Yeah, that's it.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah. I mean, when I wrote and I wrote poetry for a lot of years, that stopped as well. So now I paint, and I think that's going to stick.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

You do? Is that what you're doing with most of your days as painting?

[Joan Baez]

When I'm home, yeah.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

Now, you seem to be doing a lot of listening, too, and a lot of listening went into this record, meaning with contemporary artists who are a good deal younger than you. Younger than me as well. And this first song that you're gonna perform is Another World, and it's by a performer named Anoni. Can tell me a little bit about her.

[Joan Baez]

Well, I don't know her personally. We text now. Little bit. She seems very spiritual and, you know, her life is deeply meaningful to her. And this song is deeply meaningful to me. Somebody wrote down all of my thoughts in a simple song.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

That's what it feels like.

[Joan Baez]

Exactly.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

And so why don't we.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah, okay.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

Okay. Don't do that to that thing. Oh, my God.

[Joan Baez]

It's so beautiful. Okay. This is another world.

I need another place Will there be peace? I need another world this one's nearly gone still have too many dreams Never seen the light I need another world this one's nearly gone Another whirl, another whirl I'm gonna miss the sea.

Gonna.

Miss the snow I'm gonna miss the bees I'll miss the things that grow I'm gonna miss the trees Gonna miss the sun I'll miss the animals and I'll miss you Everyone Another worm, another word I need another place Will there peace? I need another world this one's nearly gone I'm gonna miss the birds Singing all their songs I'm gonna miss the wind it's been kissing me so long Another world, Another world, Another world.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

That is a beauty. A beauty, isn't it? Do you ever. You say you were texting with Anoni about this song. How much do you tease out what the song is about?

[Joan Baez]

Oh, I didn't really need to. Or you wouldn't do that. I didn't need to. I mean, for me, it's mostly about climate change, you know.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

But you've been through a certain number of political moments and 60s and many moments in between. And how does this seem similar or different?

[Joan Baez]

It's just I couldn't have dreamed this up. All the stuff I've been through in all the countries and all the dictatorships and, you know, and through all that, if somebody had said, can you write a story about how bad can it get? I Couldn't have written it, nor could anybody. I know that. It's just, you know, what we are facing in the administration is evil and it's cruel. There's no empathy. Zero empathy. So it leaves you or leaves me thinking, how am I going to conduct my life? It's, you know, it's the year of the bully. And to bully people now seems to be okay. To lying, no problem. No perjury, not a problem. And so that. That is the new normal.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

And how does it change the texture of your life day to day, waking up in the morning as you proceed through the day?

[Joan Baez]

Well, I think. I mean, I've heard other people say this, too. It oftentimes just hits in the night in the form of this terrible anxiety, and you realize that it's real. I mean, it's not some neurotic anxiety. I'm anxious about the state of the world, which is terrible. And so one thing is to. One of my things I suggest spend a lot of time in denial.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

That's great advice.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah. And don't expect much. I mean, keep the bar really low. Keep laughing.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

I was just watching a document. I forget which one it was, because this scene appears in so many documentaries of you singing at the march on Washington. And I just wonder how you visualize in your mind moments like that in your life, which are now distant and they're iconic in the minds of other people. But you're there, you're holding the guitar, you're at the microphone and kind of lousy sound system and singing to what it was a half a million people, whatever it was. Do you think about these moments in your past?

[Joan Baez]

You know, I think as I get older, sometimes I do, or somebody will show me a photograph. I think, oh, my God, I was there and those people were there. And Dr. King said what he said, and sometimes going into a, quote, historic moment, you know it, and other times you don't know it. In that case, I think by midway through the morning, we all knew it. Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

You mean there's sometimes that you're in the middle of an event that turns out to be iconic and you have no idea. I think a festival, a political moment.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah. I was just thinking about Woodstock, and it was a little bit of both, because I took the last helicopter in and looking down and seeing these people who are like ants, you know, they're just gobs of people. And so I had a hint then of that this was gonna be something very big. But it was after the fact that you realize, oh, my goodness, that's made a dent in people's lives forever and.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

In yours and in mine.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

You know this next song that you're going to do? I went to Charleston just days after this shooting to write about these families and these relatives of people who had lost people in the church there in this slaughter. And it was extraordinary. And then the funeral that followed that President Obama went to, it seems like a million years ago.

[Joan Baez]

It does.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

The idea of a president capable of showing empathy to such a degree that not only is the crowd with him and they feel like allies, but he's able to sing the song and begin the song that lifts people up as opposed to issue a tweet that depresses.

[Joan Baez]

The hell out of them. Yes.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

How do you remember that? That terrible incident? And why did you decide to cover this song?

[Joan Baez]

Well, covering this song was a no brainer. I mean, it was whatever feelings I had then or in the future. This song just dropped out of the sky. It's written by Zoe Mulford. I did not know and most people didn't know. And I need to tune the.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joan Baez]

The guitar. I mean, if I was quicker at tuning.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

You're killing me, knocking that guitar. And you're killing it.

[Joan Baez]

Knocking it. You're hearing it too loudly. Should I just go ahead.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

Yeah.

[Joan Baez]

Okay.

A young man came to a house of prayer they did not ask what brought him there he was not friend, he was not kin but they opened the door and they let him in and for an hour the stranger stayed he sat with them and he seemed to pray but then that young man drew a gun and killed nine people Old and young In Charleston in the month of June the mourners gathered in a room the President came to speak some words and the cameras rolled and the nation heard no one could say what must be said for all the living and the dead so on that day and in that place the President sang Amazing grace the President sang Amazing.

Grace.

We argued where to lay the blame on one man's hate or our nation's shame Some sickness for the mind and soul and how our wounds might be made whole no one could say what must be said for all the living and the dead so on that day and in that place the President sang Amazing Grace My president sang Amazing Grace.

Wow. Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

The last line is, my president. There's a switch.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

From the president to my president. Is this the only president you felt of in that way about.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah. And I had to decide whether I was going to use that or not because Zoe wrote it. My president. I thought, eh. Eh, all of them. They have to lie, cheat and steal and do all this stuff. But, yeah, he was a statesman. He was smart, he was caring. And in spite of whatever the warts were, you know, and there were some Afghanistan, you know, border crossings, a lot of it. He was just somebody I liked, I like.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

Did you meet him?

[Joan Baez]

Yeah, I met him. I was in the middle of a snowstorm, and it was his inauguration. And I went and I met him. And I had. It was freezing out, and my feet had shrunk, and I couldn't keep my high heels on. They stuffed things in there for me, you know, like cotton ones.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

You wore high heels to the inauguration? It was very cold.

[Joan Baez]

I kicked them off and went barefoot.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

Good solution.

[Joan Baez]

It was a good solution. It was a great solution. Well, your feet shrink and you're going to be schlepping and making noises all the way to the president. So I went barefoot and made him very happy.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

You totally embraced the idea of political songwriting and its connection to politics, its connection to the social world. Bob Dylan did the other thing. He ran away from it. He wrote some of the great political songs of the time. And then did his very best to either reject the label or pretend to. I've never. It's hard to make sense of it now. I take him at his word. What did you make of that? The kind of wanting to be distant from Masters of War and saying it would be great for the kids or it would sell.

[Joan Baez]

Or would it sell?

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

It would sell.

[Joan Baez]

You know, I reached a point very recently when I was painting him for commissions. And I played his music 24 hours a day for a while. And any kind of criticism, resentment, old bullshit, just absolutely melted. Gone, you know? And all I think now is what a lucky human being I am. That I was there at that point in history.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

Look, I. I'm steeped in this stuff. I read your book, especially in the first appearance when you tour together. And then he very painfully pushes you away. His behavior was awful. Awful.

[Joan Baez]

Pretty awful, yeah.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

And your tone in that book, which is written in the kind of mid to late 80s, is still really bitter.

[Joan Baez]

I mean, I held onto that for a long time. And then recently he said some nice things about me. That's nice, but that isn't what triggered just saying, okay, just drop all this. It was too beautiful. What we got from him, it doesn't matter. He wrote us our arsenal. And then we went on and did the work.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

What do you do about old songs that are particularly hard to sing? Do you just junk them or find New ways to finesse them.

[Joan Baez]

Well, my brilliant sound man said. Cause I was grumbling, I couldn't do Forever Young anymore because I love it.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

Because of the top.

[Joan Baez]

Because of the top. He said, well, let Grace do that. You know, the woman who tuned my guitar is this woman who sings with me. She has a fantastic voice and she can hit all the notes that I used to be able to hit.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

She's out on stage with you, not ghosting you underneath the stage.

[Joan Baez]

She's out on stage with me. Yeah. We took her out of the box and put her on stage.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

I think that's excellent.

[Joan Baez]

And she said, and it's beautiful. I mean, we've turned it into an encore. Cause it's so special. And she takes that note that I'll, you know, never ever be able to make again.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

Are there moments when something breaks through or is it just a physiological thing? You can't go above X note and don't even try.

[Joan Baez]

There's a thing called cellular memory. And there are some songs that I can do. Now, this, mostly from Cell Memory. For example, Swing Low. I still do Swing Low. And it's a different sound when I go up and hit that note. But it's still something I can get to and sustain. A lot of those notes I can get to, but I can't sustain them. So I come popping back down the matter.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

It sounds an awful lot like being an athlete.

[Joan Baez]

It is, you know, it's the muscle. And then after a while, you're not going to be able to do that anymore.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

Are you just as happy not doing this?

[Joan Baez]

I am not. You mean the work and the vocal stuff? Yeah. It's probably now about seven years ago. And I was hoping, because I was having such a hard time with the voice, I thought, well, I'll go and see some ear, nose and throat guy. Maybe he'll say, I've got nodes all over my head, my vocal cord. And he'll take them off and I'll be perfect. Yeah. And he poked around and we, you know, he put the thing down my throat and we watched on the screen. And I. I said, well, is this kind of it? He said, you're exactly where you should be at 71. And I said, oh, you know, that's a shame. And I think that if I had started training, I mean, like Judy Collins, she still holds those notes up there.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

How does she do that?

[Joan Baez]

I think she trained really early and trained classically. I joke with her that she could make notes that I never dream of making again.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

Right. Whereas I think Joni Mitchell, the Voice started changing really early.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah, I think so, too.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

So you've got two nights. You've got two big concerts, Friday and Saturday night this week, I think it's fair to say. And how do you prepare for something like this?

[Joan Baez]

Well, I'm already prepared from this tour. There's nothing I fret about.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

You don't get nervous?

[Joan Baez]

Not really.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

So. So you don't have dreams? Like you wake up in the middle of the night in a terror sweat? You've forgotten the lyrics to Diamonds and.

[Joan Baez]

Rust or something, you know? I have several times. And it just makes everybody laugh. So don't worry about it.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

So it's good? Show me.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah, right.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

Perfect. Well, I wish you all the best for this tour. And Joan, it's a great, great, great, great honor.

[Joan Baez]

It's been a pleasure for me. Thanks very much. Thank you.

O fare thee well. I must be and leave you for a while. Wherever I go, I will return if I go.

[Interviewer (likely David Remnick)]

Joan Baez is on her Fare Thee well tour well into the spring of 2019, so you still have plenty of chances to see her. I'm David Remnick. Thanks for joining us on the New Yorker Radio Hour this week. And until next time, stay in touch with us on Twitter New yorkerradio.

[David Remnick]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Alexis Quadrado. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Chorina Endowment Fund.