Lesley Stahl on What a Settlement with Donald Trump Would Mean for CBS News

Summary

The New Yorker Radio Hour: Lesley Stahl on What a Settlement with Donald Trump Would Mean for CBS News

Release Date: May 30, 2025
Host: David Remnick
Guest: Lesley Stahl, Veteran CBS News Correspondent

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Introduction: The Legacy of Edward R. Murrow and Current Challenges

At the outset of the episode, David Remnick sets the stage by drawing parallels between the historic CBS News anchor Edward R. Murrow’s courageous stand against Senator Joseph McCarthy, as dramatized in the Broadway play Good Night and Good Luck, and the contemporary struggles faced by CBS News under the Trump administration. Remnick highlights how Donald Trump’s legal actions and intimidation tactics echo the pressures Murrow once confronted, emphasizing the heightened stakes for modern journalism.

Key Quote:
"Donald Trump, someone far more powerful than McCarthy ever was, is using lawsuits and raw intimidation to bring the media to heel."
— David Remnick [01:01]

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Lesley Stahl’s Tenure and Early Experiences at CBS News

Lesley Stahl, a stalwart of CBS News with over 50 years at the network, reflects on her early days covering the Watergate scandal. As an affirmative action hire in 1972, Stahl recounts her initial skepticism about the importance of the Watergate story and how Walter Cronkite’s steadfast commitment transformed it into a pivotal narrative.

Key Quote:
"Walter's voice carried a lot of weight. He's the most trusted man in America, and he was."
— Lesley Stahl [04:15]

She discusses the immense pressure from William Paley, the then-owner of CBS, who intervened during the Watergate coverage by instructing Cronkite to limit the airtime dedicated to the story, illustrating early instances of corporate influence on news reporting.

Key Quote:
"Paley succumbed. Walter ran the 14-minute piece. His plan was to come back the next night with another 14-minute piece which was in the works. And Paley's pressure was now so intense on the CBS News division, Walter was squeezed."
— Lesley Stahl [04:42]

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The Trump Lawsuit Against CBS News: A New Frontier of Pressure

Transitioning to the present, Remnick delves into the lawsuit filed by Donald Trump against CBS News, seeking a $20 billion settlement over a 60 Minutes interview with Kamala Harris. Lesley Stahl provides insight into the nature of the lawsuit, characterizing it as an attempt to chill the media rather than seek genuine damages.

Key Quote:
"What is really behind it in a nutshell, is to chill us. There aren't any damages. He accused us of editing Kamala Harris in a way to help her win the election, but he won the election."
— Lesley Stahl [16:09]

Stahl explains that Paramount Global, CBS's parent company, led by Shari Redstone, is keen on settling the lawsuit to facilitate a major acquisition by Skydance, owned by pro-Trump Larry Ellison. This settlement is seen as a strategic move to secure government approval for the sale, despite internal resistance from the newsroom.

Key Quote:
"Sherry Redstone, run by Sherry Redstone's family... they hold the freedom of the press up as a beacon, that they understand the importance of allowing us to be independent and do our jobs. I'm expecting that. I'm hoping that. I want that. I'm praying for that."
— Lesley Stahl [22:44]

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Resignations and Internal Turmoil at CBS News

The episode reveals significant upheaval within CBS News, marked by the resignations of Wendy McMahon, head of CBS News, and Bill Owens, executive producer of 60 Minutes. Owens stepped down after resisting corporate pressures to alter or suppress certain news stories, a move that stunned the newsroom and signaled escalating tensions between editorial integrity and corporate directives.

Key Quote:
"Bill Owens stepping down... it was a punch in the stomach. It was one of those punches where you almost can't breathe."
— Lesley Stahl [18:34]

McMahon’s departure further exacerbates the situation, removing a key advocate within the corporate structure who previously acted as a barrier against undue interference. Stahl expresses deep disappointment and frustration towards Shari Redstone, citing her as a primary source of the mounting pressures.

Key Quote:
"I am pessimistic about the future for all press today. The public doesn't trust us. The public has lost faith in us as an institution."
— Lesley Stahl [23:31]

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The Future of CBS News Under Skydance Ownership

Looking ahead, Stahl voices concerns over the potential acquisition of CBS News by Skydance. While expressing hope that new ownership led by Larry Ellison would uphold journalistic independence, she remains skeptical due to the current resistance and corporate maneuvering. Stahl underscores the critical role of a free press in democracy and fears that corporate ownership compromises this essential function.

Key Quote:
"To have a news organization come under corporate pressure, to have a news organization told by a corporation, do this, do that with your story, change this, change that, don't run that piece. I mean, it steps on the First Amendment, it steps on the freedom of the press."
— Lesley Stahl [21:10]

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Public Trust and the State of Modern Media

Lesley Stahl reflects on the declining public trust in the media, linking it to the evolution of journalism from the Fairness Doctrine era to the current landscape dominated by partisan outlets like Fox News and MSNBC. She laments that the collective identity of the media as a "salad bowl" of ideologies undermines public confidence in news institutions.

Key Quote:
"We're called media. We're media. The New York Times is called media. No wonder the people public think we're all political."
— Lesley Stahl [25:10]

Stahl emphasizes the need for the media to reclaim its role as an unbiased, factual reporting entity to restore public trust and fulfill its democratic responsibilities.

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Conclusion: The Fragility and Resilience of Press Institutions

In concluding the discussion, Stahl articulates her anguish over the weakening state of press institutions and their diminished role in public life. She expresses both mourning for the potential loss of 60 Minutes' integrity and cautious optimism that a settlement with Trump might allow the network to continue its journalistic mission.

Key Quote:
"The pain in my heart is that the public does not appreciate the importance of a free and strong and tough press in our democracy, that we have a function to fulfill and that the public doesn't seem to want what we do to be part of our public life."
— Lesley Stahl [27:22]

Remnick wraps up the episode by acknowledging Stahl's unwavering commitment to journalism amid unprecedented challenges, highlighting her as a symbol of resilience and dedication.

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Notable Quotes Summary

• "Donald Trump... is using lawsuits and raw intimidation to bring the media to heel."
  — David Remnick [01:01]

• "Walter's voice carried a lot of weight. He's the most trusted man in America, and he was."
  — Lesley Stahl [04:15]

• "What is really behind it... is to chill us."
  — Lesley Stahl [16:09]

• "I am pessimistic about the future for all press today."
  — Lesley Stahl [23:31]

• "We're called media... No wonder the people public think we're all political."
  — Lesley Stahl [25:10]

• "The pain in my heart is that the public does not appreciate the importance of a free and strong and tough press in our democracy."
  — Lesley Stahl [27:22]

---

Final Thoughts

This episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour offers a profound exploration of the intersection between corporate interests, political pressures, and journalistic integrity. Through Lesley Stahl’s seasoned perspective, listeners gain an in-depth understanding of the precarious position of major news outlets like CBS News in today’s polarized and legally tumultuous environment. The conversation underscores the enduring importance of a free press and the ongoing battle to maintain its independence and trustworthiness in the face of relentless external pressures.

Transcript

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The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported by Sony Pictures Classics. Presenting Jane Austen Wrecked My Life starring Camille Rutherford. A new romantic comedy about a Parisian woman who dreams of becoming a successful writer and experiencing true love while attending a Jane Austen writer's residency in England. Jane Austen Wrecked My Life is now playing only in theaters. For more information and tickets, visit janeaustenreckedmylife.com this is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

[David Remnick]

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. One of the hottest tickets on Broadway these days. In fact, it just broke a box office record. Is the play Good Night and Good Luck. And it's adapted from George Clooney's 2005 film. Clooney is on stage as Edward R. Murrow, the CBS News anchor. Murrow was the most respected journalist in his time and the play dramatizes his stand against the lies and corruption of one of the most powerful men in America in mid century, Senator Joseph McCarthy. It's an inspirational story, especially at a moment when Donald Trump, someone far more powerful than McCarthy ever was, is using lawsuits and raw intimidation to bring the media to heel. Donald Trump sued CBS eventually for $20 billion over 60 minutes interview with Kamala Harris. By all legal accounts, it's a preposterous suit. And yet Shari Redstone, the head of Paramount Global, which is CBS's parent company, is actively trying to negotiate a settlement. The reason is that she wants to sell her company, Paramount, and to do so, she needs government approval. Redstone's critics and people at 60 Minutes contend that settling the lawsuit is in effect a surrender, a big payoff to the president. And yet Redstone has already made an offer to settle of $15 million. Trump, however, says that's not enough and he wants an apology. So this is a very perilous time at cbs. And I sat down last week to talk with a veteran of the network, Leslie Stahl, who reports for its premiere news show, 60 Minutes. And she's been at CBS for over 50 years.

[Leslie Stahl]

Just think about something. Think about my pension.

[David Remnick]

It's going to be huge.

[Leslie Stahl]

It's going to be huge.

[David Remnick]

And as a young reporter, Leslie Stahl covered Watergate.

[Leslie Stahl]

I Was brand new. I was an affirmative action hire in 1972, and they sent me to cover Watergate because nobody thought it was a story. You know, the first arraignment of the burglars. It was Woodward and me.

[David Remnick]

Mm. Now, Leslie, obviously we're gonna get to the present tense and the pressures on the press and CBS News in 60 minutes, but create a context here. How aware were you back then about the ownership of CBS News? Pressures that the President might put on the owners, pressures from advertisers? We don't exist in an ideal vacuum.

[Leslie Stahl]

No, no, we were owned by William Paley back then and fairly early on, when most of the television networks and most newspapers weren't covering Watergate, it was the Woodward Bernstein story. Walter Cronkite, our anchorman, decided that it was a very important story. And so he did a very. Walter did a very, very long piece. 14 minutes, which was more than half the broadcast.

[Unknown Announcer]

Five men apparently caught in the act of burglarizing and bugging Democratic headquarters in Washington.

[Leslie Stahl]

Walter's voice carried a lot of weight. He's the most trusted man in America, and he was. So that he did the story, they didn't farm it out to someone else. Also made the statement, well, William Paley, President of the United States, picked up or had his right hand man pick up the phone, call him, scream at him. I don't know if you've ever had the White House scream at you. I have.

[David Remnick]

It's no fun.

[Leslie Stahl]

It's terrible and frightening. And Paley succumbed. Walter ran the 14 minute piece. His plan was to come back the next night with another 14 minute piece which was in the works. And Paley's pressure was now so intense on the CBS News division, Walter was squeezed. He didn't pull the piece, but he did cut it in half. So you know these.

[David Remnick]

So Paley was no hero in this.

[Leslie Stahl]

Paley was a hero during the McCarthy time because he stood up, but not during the Watergate time.

[David Remnick]

Now, you've interviewed Donald Trump a number of times.

[Leslie Stahl]

Four times.

[David Remnick]

When was the first time? How far do you go back?

[Leslie Stahl]

Oh, the first time was when he became the nominee right before his convention.

[David Remnick]

First time. Sixteen.

[Leslie Stahl]

Yeah.

[David Remnick]

And what was that like?

[Leslie Stahl]

He and Pence were sitting together side by side.

[David Remnick]

Mike Pence is vice presidential nominee.

[Leslie Stahl]

Correct. What was amusing was I was focused on their faces, but I didn't see anything below their shoulders in my line of vision. But we had a wide shot, and in the edit room, we could see all three cameras going at the same time. And only then did I see Mr. Trump directing him with his hand, telling him when to be quiet, telling him when to talk? I thought that was.

[David Remnick]

That first interview was, by the standard of Trump interviews, reasonably civil.

[Leslie Stahl]

All my interviews were civil.

[David Remnick]

Well, but in 2020, it got hot.

[Leslie Stahl]

You. It didn't get hot.

[David Remnick]

He walked out on you.

[Leslie Stahl]

Yeah, but he didn't storm out on me.

[David Remnick]

Oh, that's what counts as civil, is walking out on you, but not storming out. I mean, he said at one point, I wish you would interview Joe Biden like you interview me. And he wasn't happy with you. You know, he's in the middle of a scandal. He was referring to Hunter Biden. And then you said, he's not. And there was a back and forth, and you said, you know, this is 60 Minutes, and we can't put on things that we cannot verify. He didn't like this.

[Leslie Stahl]

There was an interesting sequence. He said at the end, you have enough. He wasn't doing that well. And he got up, he was calm and quiet. And I said, watch the wires. And he said, I'll see you later. He had agreed to do a walk after the interview outside. And he said, I'll see you for the walk.

[David Remnick]

Like B roll?

[Leslie Stahl]

Yeah, exactly. It's called a 60 minutes walk.

[David Remnick]

I like it.

[Leslie Stahl]

And it was after, after he thought about it, that he got angry and canceled the walk.

[David Remnick]

But, Leslie, afterwards, he went on Facebook and he accused you and CBS of bias, hatred and rudeness.

[Leslie Stahl]

Afterward. He got angry afterward.

[David Remnick]

Why?

[Leslie Stahl]

I don't know.

[David Remnick]

In one of your encounters with Donald Trump, maybe it was off camera, he described to you how he behaves with the press in a very almost rational way. Can you tell me about that?

[Leslie Stahl]

He'd been hammering away at us, meaning the press in general, at every rally. And his rallies were getting larger and larger, and it was becoming very clear that he was going to be the nominee. And I said, you know, you attack the press every time you speak. You use pretty much the same language. It's kind of getting boring. Why do you do this? Why do you keep at it? And he said, I do it so that when you write or say negative things about me, no one will believe you. And it sent a chill through me because I thought, wow, he has thought this through. This isn't something that's a casual angry that the press said something yesterday about me. It was thought out. It was a strategy. It was something that clearly he'd work through. And it was the first time, frankly, that I appreciated that he had a real serious agenda.

[David Remnick]

And it became more sophisticated because now what he does is, is he pursues and sues institutions of the press. And what he's discovering is those institutions buckle. He went after the Washington Post and Jeff Bezos has buckled. He's gone after ABC after George Stephanopoulos described the sexual assault case in language that Donald Trump didn't like, even though the judge used the same language. And ABC settled because Disney has other business to do. Did you imagine that he would come after you this hard and with this kind of ammunition?

[Leslie Stahl]

No.

[David Remnick]

And did you feel vulnerable? Did CBS feel vulnerable?

[Leslie Stahl]

60 Minutes I would say that we definitely feel under attack.

[David Remnick]

I'm talking with Leslie Stahl of 60 Minutes, and we'll continue in a moment. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour.

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[Jon Favreau]

And sleep through the next four years, but if you're wondering how to survive a second Trump term while staying fully conscious of Pod Save America is here to help you process what's happening now and what comes next. I'm Jon Favreau and Tommy Vietor, Jon Lovett and Dan Pfeiffer, and I wade hip deep into the week's political news and fish out some political analysis you can trust. Yes, Tommy's shoes get ruined. Yes, he'll do it again tomorrow because the endeavor is worth it and so is your sanity. Tune into Pod Save America wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.

[David Remnick]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remn speaking with Lesley Stahl. Leslie Stahl was the first woman to serve as White House correspondent for cbs, and she was the moderator for the Sunday show Face the Nation, and since 1991, she's reported for 60 Minutes. We've been talking about the Trump administration's attempt to intimidate CBS and many other news outlets as well. CBS's parent company, Paramount, is attempting to settle a lawsuit from Donald Trump. The head of CBS News, Wendy McMahon, as well as the executive producer of 60 Minutes, Bill Owens, both resigned recently. I spoke with Leslie Stahl last week, just days before Paramount offered a settlement to Donald Trump of $15 million, a settlement that he did not accept. And the negotiations are ongoing now during the latter days of the campaign between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. 60 Minutes, as I understand it, wanted to interview both of them.

[Leslie Stahl]

Correct.

[David Remnick]

Donald Trump refused.

[Leslie Stahl]

Well, first he accepted and then he changed his mind.

[David Remnick]

What happened?

[Leslie Stahl]

We don't know. He said yes and then he said no.

[David Remnick]

And there was an interview with Kamala Harris. And what happened, you know, it wasn't.

[Leslie Stahl]

My story, so it's hard for me to talk exactly about how the sequence went. And we start putting out snippets of our interviews on Thursday. So that's what we did. And we gave FACE THE Nation a clip. Now, Bill Whitaker asked a question. I'm not sure what it was.

[David Remnick]

Bill Whitaker who did the interview?

[Leslie Stahl]

Who did the interview? Yeah. And there was a very long answer. And 60 Minutes ran one part of the answer in Bill's piece and Face THE Nation chose another part of the same answer to run on theirs. Now, we are under time constraints, and this was done for time. We had it to keep our pieces down to a certain length. And this is what Mr. Trump sued over.

[David Remnick]

Well, what he said was, is that you reduced the. You made clear what was word salad. In other words, what he was accusing 60 Minutes of doing is trying to make Kamala Harris look better.

[Leslie Stahl]

But that isn't what we did. We just ran two different halves of the same answer.

[David Remnick]

What's behind the lawsuit, in your estimation? And by the way, the lawsuit is for $20 billion.

[Leslie Stahl]

$20 billion. Well, I think what is really behind it in a nutshell, is to chill us. There aren't any damages. He accused us of editing Kamala Harris in a way to help her win the election, but he won the election.

[David Remnick]

So why isn't this a frivolous lawsuit?

[Leslie Stahl]

It is a frivolous lawsuit.

[David Remnick]

So why isn't CBS treating it as a frivolous lawsuit? As I understand it, Leslie, they're in negotiations to settle this lawsuit, and that's where the trouble begins. And if I can give the background for those who are not following it, it's against a corporate background. CBS is owned by Paramount. Paramount, run by Sherry Redstone, wants to make a deal with something called Skydance, run by the Ellison family, and in a sense, sell itself to Skydance. And it's an enormous deal worth billions and billions of dollars. Larry Ellison, by the way, is very pro Trump. And Shari Redstone wants to unload you, wants to unload CBS and Paramount and be done with it, make a lot of money and walk away. But she sees trouble because she has to get FCC approval for this deal. And she's worried that the FCC might stand in the way of this deal because it's under Donald Trump, and she's willing to compromise. And I have to think that the newsroom in 60 Minutes must have been in incredible turmoil and be that way to this day.

[Leslie Stahl]

Turmoil is too strong a word. We've put our.

[David Remnick]

Is it?

[Leslie Stahl]

I think so. Turmoil suggests that the ship was so unsteady, we weren't functioning. But that is not true. We just kept doing our jobs the same way.

[David Remnick]

Why did Bill Owen step down?

[Leslie Stahl]

Because he was being asked to either not run pieces or to change parts of the stories. And he was standing up to that. I don't know, frankly, if there was one request that led to it or just accumulation, one after the next after the next.

[David Remnick]

Describe the day that Bill Owens came in front of the staff and stepped down.

[Leslie Stahl]

That was just painful. Painful. Everybody at 60 Minutes, I think everybody, most of us really appreciated his standing up to the pressure and saw him in heroic terms. So when he announced that he was stepping down, it was a punch in the stomach. It was one of those punches where you almost can't breathe.

[David Remnick]

And then the head of CBS News did the same thing. Wendy McMahon stepped down.

[Leslie Stahl]

Yeah, well, she was the intermediary between us and the corporation, and she sided with us with CBS News. So when she stepped down, that was another blow because she was another barrier. And you know, I used that word, barrier.

[David Remnick]

I have to say, Leslie, and I, with no relish at all. God knows it looks pretty obvious at this point that they're going to settle that lawsuit just as ABC did, so that they can be sold to Skydance.

[Leslie Stahl]

Yes.

[David Remnick]

Are you angry at Cheri Redstone?

[Leslie Stahl]

Yes, I think I am. I think I am.

[David Remnick]

What would drive you out? What is your limit? Where do you say I, Leslie Stahl, who've been at this network for so long and I've given so much to it, I cannot go this far.

[Leslie Stahl]

I haven't in my own mind drawn that line because there are many different lines. Bill Owens leaving was a line, and here we all are. He asked us not to resign. He explicitly asked us not to resign because it was discussed that we would leave it en masse.

[David Remnick]

Sherry Redstone has also made it known that she had problems with the coverage of the Israel Palestine war and conflict. How did she make that known? And what message does that send to you as a reporter?

[Leslie Stahl]

The message came down through the line through Wendy McMahon to Bill.

[David Remnick]

This is hard.

[Leslie Stahl]

Yep, it is hard. And it's big. It's not a small thing.

[David Remnick]

Tell me about that.

[Leslie Stahl]

To have a news organization come under corporate pressure, to have a news organization told by a corporation, do this, do that with your story, change this, change that, don't run that piece. I mean, it steps on the First Amendment, it steps on the freedom of the press. It makes me question whether any corporation should own a news operation. It is very disconcerting. And as I said, we have had pressure before, in earlier owners.

[David Remnick]

Was it ever like this?

[Leslie Stahl]

I can't remember. A lawsuit.

[David Remnick]

Let's assume this deal goes through. Skydance buys you. And there might be other permutations, too. You know, you might end up joined to the hip with CNN and a deal with Warner. Who knows? But let's assume it's a simple sale and suddenly CBS News in 60 Minutes is under Skydance, which is run by Larry Ellison's family. Would you expect 60 minutes to change quite radically?

[Leslie Stahl]

Well, why would we?

[David Remnick]

Because your corporate overlord has told you you have to.

[Leslie Stahl]

We haven't. And we've had a corporate overlord, to use your word, who has told us to change.

[David Remnick]

You quietly have resisted the editorial pressures from Sherry Redstone.

[Leslie Stahl]

Correct. And I'm just, frankly. And this is being a little Pollyanner. Pollyannerish. That's that word that David Ellison and the people he brings in to run his organization hold the freedom of the press up as a beacon, that they understand the importance of allowing us to be independent and do our jobs. I'm expecting that. I'm hoping that. I want that. I'm praying for that. And I have no reason to think that won't happen.

[David Remnick]

That would be the best outcome.

[Leslie Stahl]

That would be the best outcome. And while I'm.

[David Remnick]

Is there a lot of optimism at 60 minutes that that will be the outcome?

[Leslie Stahl]

No. But there's also not a lot of dark thinking either. Perhaps. Let me talk about me. I am perhaps being blind. You know, maybe I should understand what's coming, but I'm not operating that way. I'm not optimistic. I am not. I'm pessimistic. I'm pessimistic about the future for all press today. The public doesn't trust us. The public has lost faith in us as an institution. So we're in very dark times.

[David Remnick]

How do you analyze that?

[Leslie Stahl]

I will tell you how I analyze that. We used to have the Fairness Doctrine, and people saw that we were very visibly presenting two sides in our stories. So we lost that. We then got. I don't know what the word is. Advocacy journalism came along. Fox News was probably the beginning of it. But now we have msnbc, and those outlets wear their ideology on their sleeves. Everybody knows that Fox News is right. Everybody knows that MSNBC has left. Nobody's making any bones about it. Here's the problem. They're called media. They're media. I'm called media. The New York Times is called media. No wonder the people public think we're all political. We're all in the salad bowl. Together.

[David Remnick]

How do you resolve that lesson?

[Leslie Stahl]

We haven't been able to, and it's been a problem for a long time. It's not a problem that's propped up because Donald Trump is president. We've been having this issue of being tarred with that brush for as long as Fox has been around. And I don't know how to explain that. We're different. And maybe even if the public did understand that we're different, they wouldn't have faith in us. And that is a distressing thought to me.

[David Remnick]

One of the problems you have now, I would say, is that independent of your politics, you've got half the country who acknowledges that Donald Trump is carrying out corrupt practices, meme coins, all kinds of things that are unprecedented in their scale of corruption and just in general, is pushing a much more authoritarian view of American political life. Now, is that ideology or is that factual reporting? Even Bob Woodward?

[Leslie Stahl]

This is a very good question.

[David Remnick]

Even Bob Woodward will say this, but.

[Leslie Stahl]

I resist saying it.

[David Remnick]

You do?

[Leslie Stahl]

I do.

[David Remnick]

As a matter of professional practice or a matter of opinion?

[Leslie Stahl]

As a matter of professional practice.

[David Remnick]

Let me close with this. What concerns me finally in our conversation is the fragility of these institutions, the fragility of them that we thought would last forever. And a friend of mine pointed out David Halberstam wrote a book in 1979 called the Powers that Be, about the biggest institutions in the press in this country besides the New York Times. And those institutions were the Los Angeles Times, which is now in a terrible state, Time magazine, which is practically disappeared or is in the process of it, I'm afraid, the Washington Post, which is going through its own drama with Jeff Bezos and CBS News.

[Leslie Stahl]

Well, you had a good word there. In my opinion, fragility. Here's the pain in my heart. The pain in my heart is that the public does not appreciate the importance of a free and strong and tough press in our democracy, that we have a function to fulfill and that the public doesn't seem to want what we do to be part of our public life.

[David Remnick]

And the dilemma is that most of these places that I named, the New York Times, is an exception. But for most of these owners, the organ of the press that they own is small change compared to Disney under abc, Amazon, which owns the Washington Post, and so on and so forth so that they can be easily compromised.

[Leslie Stahl]

We're a headache. We are headache, an expensive headache. And that's part of the fragility. But I think the more important part is public attitude. And it hurts more than you can imagine more than everything that's going on with us in our business.

[David Remnick]

And yeah, Leslie, you are the age. You are. And you're a phenomenon.

[Leslie Stahl]

I am the age. I am. I am.

[David Remnick]

And you show no signs of. Of losing interest in this activity. But I get the sense that it would break your heart if this institution, 60 minutes really.

[Leslie Stahl]

Oh, yeah.

[David Remnick]

Either fell apart or became a shell of itself.

[Leslie Stahl]

No question. No question. I'm already beginning to think about mourning, grieving. But I'm holding out hope. I know there's going to be a settlement. I know there's going to be some money exchanged. I know that. And then we will hopefully still be around turning a new page and finding out what that new page is going to look like.

[David Remnick]

But you wouldn't walk away.

[Leslie Stahl]

Depends. You asked me where my line is. I'm not sure. I don't think I can express what it is. But there is a line. Of course there's a line.

[David Remnick]

Leslie Stahl, thank you.

[Leslie Stahl]

Okay. Thank you.

[David Remnick]

Leslie Stahl reports for 60 Minutes. And we should note that a CBS spokesperson denies that Paramount or CBS management has ever blocked stories on 60 Minutes. David? I'm David Remnick. That's the New Yorker Radio Hour for today. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

[Unknown Announcer]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul and Ursula Sommer, with guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barsch, Victor Guan and Alejandra Deckett.

[David Remnick]

We had additional help this week from John Delore.

[Unknown Announcer]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment.

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