Podcast Summary: The New Yorker Radio Hour – "Lily Tomlin on Love, and News from Moscow"

Date: February 24, 2017
Host: David Remnick
Guests: Hilton Als, Lily Tomlin, Joshua Yaffa, Evan Osnos, Emily Flake, Mary Norris

Episode Overview

This episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour weaves together profiles and news analysis, starting with a warm, insightful look at Lily Tomlin’s enduring career and partnership with writer Jane Wagner, followed by a deep dive into the climate in Moscow post-2016 U.S. election, and concluding with lighter, personal perspectives from cartoonist Emily Flake and “Comma Queen” Mary Norris. The episode’s tone alternates between reflective and sharp, with consistently thoughtful inquiry.

Section 1: Lily Tomlin & Jane Wagner — Art, Love, and Lifework

(00:29–18:24)

Main Focus

Hilton Als profiles Lily Tomlin, focusing on her creative partnership and longtime love with Jane Wagner, their groundbreaking work, and Tomlin’s unique approach to performance and character.

Key Insights & Discussion Points

• Tomlin’s Legacy of Risk and Authenticity

  • President Obama praised Tomlin for pushing boundaries, referencing “Duke and Opal,” a skit with Richard Pryor.
    • Hilton Als (01:57): “Lily Tomlin... played the blackest woman I had ever seen on TV at that point... But she doesn’t use anything demeaning to black women in the skit at all.”
  • Tomlin’s upbringing in Detroit, in mixed neighborhoods, informed her sense of character and authenticity.
  • She and Wagner were at the forefront as two women collaborating creatively in a male-dominated field.

• Jane Wagner: The Genius Behind the Scenes

  • Wagner is described as “incredibly shy and modest,” content with writing rather than being in the limelight.
    • Lily Tomlin (06:04): “I absolutely flipped over her as soon as I saw her.”
    • Tomlin shares the story of their first meeting: “I just took her in my arms and kissed her on the mouth, just impulsively.” (06:21)
  • They bonded over shared sensibilities and found a working rhythm quickly.

• Collaborative Creative Work

  • The pair’s projects often drew from personal life, such as monologues inspired by Tomlin’s parents, and whimsical on-tour charity activities (celebrity artifact bags).
    • Lily Tomlin (09:04): “We’d put inside a sponge, a used sponge for my makeup, a battery from my microphone... whatever the artifacts would be backstage... a little card inside that said, genuine celebrity Artifact.”

• Tomlin’s Unique Characters

  • Discussion of her characters such as Ernestine, Doralina, and the depth of her monologues, particularly those written by Wagner.
  • Performing Wagner’s monologues is a career highlight for Tomlin, including the powerful one from “The Search.”
    • Lily Tomlin (17:06): “The audience leapt to its feet. It was so thrilling... we said, the play is finished. We know it’s finished.”

• Perspectives on Performance

  • Tomlin treasures the stage for its language and immediacy:
    • Lily Tomlin (18:04): “I just love it because it’s so much the word, it allows for language. I went to mime school... I could not survive without language.”

Notable Quotes

• On Authenticity:
  • Hilton Als (02:30): “The authenticity of spirit — let’s call it that. So Lily is inhabiting this character... But she doesn’t use anything demeaning.”
• On Collaboration:
  • Lily Tomlin (08:14): “I loved her stuff... If it pleased me, I just expected it to please everybody else.”
• On Family and Performance:
  • Lily Tomlin’s father (11:59): “Babe, you have to learn how to be popular.”

Memorable Moments

• The tale of Tomlin and Wagner’s first meeting and early romance is told with candor and humor.
• Anecdote about the importance — and tyranny — of hair in Tomlin’s youth (12:30).

Timestamps:

• [01:57]–[03:32] – “Duke and Opal” skit discussed
• [06:20]–[07:14] – How Tomlin and Wagner met
• [09:03] – “Celebrity artifact” story
• [15:34] – Favorite Wagner monologue
• [17:06] – Recounting the thrilling live audience reaction

Section 2: The Russia Story — Moscow, Washington, and the Trump Era

(20:01–34:54)

Main Focus

David Remnick, Joshua Yaffa (Moscow), and Evan Osnos (Washington) discuss the shifting dynamics of U.S.-Russia relations after Trump’s election, reactions inside Russia, and the evolving American investigation into alleged Russian interference.

Key Insights & Discussion Points

• Initial Russian Response to Trump’s Win

  • Euphoria at first, but quickly replaced with caution as unpredictability became apparent.
  • Joshua Yaffa (20:01): “The sense of euphoria… is gone. Of course, it was always a bit tricky for the Kremlin … because this was officially and technically not Russia’s victory at all.”

• Putin’s Calculus Regarding Trump

  • Trump seen as either a useful disruptor or someone who could bring disorder to the U.S.
    • Joshua Yaffa (21:34): “It’s possible to look at Trump as a kind of win-win if you’re Putin… Either he follows through… or he brings a measure of turbulence and disorder to U.S. politics…”

• Russian State Media Shifts Coverage

  • Kremlin-directed coverage of Trump cooled after the Michael Flynn resignation, signaling internal concern over the narrative and its repercussions.
    • Joshua Yaffa (23:17): “The resignation of Trump’s former National Security adviser, Mike Flynn, was seen in Russia as a really pivotal... event and a sign for Russia that Trump was not going to be able to quickly… force through a more conciliatory… agenda.”

• American Intelligence and Investigations

  • Comparisons drawn to pre-Iraq war skepticism, but key agencies now agree on Russia’s interference, with less internal discord than in 2003.
  • Evan Osnos (24:58): “The picture looks quite different… Three agencies… reached their own conclusions about this broader campaign… hacking, fake news, social media manipulation…”
  • Growing bipartisan concern, especially after Flynn’s resignation; institutionalists in Congress insist on thorough investigations.

• Trump’s Vulnerabilities

  • Financial entanglements and campaign contacts with Russians are opaque due to lack of transparency.
  • Evan Osnos (28:49): “There are just a tremendous number of questions about his finances that we simply don’t know the answer to because he won’t release his tax returns…”
  • The legal issue is not just contact, but lying about it or being subject to Russian influence.

• Russian Perception of Investigations

  • From dismissal to growing unease, especially as inquiries become “specific and real and durable.”
    • Joshua Yaffa (33:44): “It gets more uncomfortable for Putin and those around him in the Kremlin rather than less… Now that bill is coming due.”

Notable Quotes

• Evan Osnos (24:58): “The difference [from Iraq] is… you are not hearing the kind of discord within the intelligence community that you would have heard around the war in Iraq.”
• David Remnick (30:09): “What’s wrong with being in contact with Russians?”
  • Evan Osnos (30:11): “Absolutely not. There’s nothing wrong with it… It’s only problematic if you lie about it... or... it’s about being subject to influence…”

Timestamps:

• [20:01] – Moscow’s initial reactions
• [23:17] – State television’s shift
• [24:58] – American intelligence community
• [28:49] – Trump’s vulnerabilities
• [33:44] – Russian unease as investigations continue

Section 3: Emily Flake — Humor, Escapism, and Magazines for the Next Generation

(35:29–41:01)

Main Focus

Cartoonist Emily Flake shares ways to combat political gloom, reveals her inspirations, and looks back at magazine culture, with insights into humor during challenging times.

Key Insights & Discussion Points

• Escapist Reading During “Bummed Out” Times

  • Flake recommends The Importance of Living by Lin Yutang (1937), a philosophical text offering perspective on human nature and demagogues.
    • Emily Flake (37:43): “Knowing then our human frailties, we have the more reason to hate the despicable wretch who… makes use of our human foibles… who inculcates hatred… who appeals to our animal bigotry… and who whips up and stirs our mortal passions as if we were not already very near the beast.”
  • For cheer, she also dives into vintage magazines like Holiday, noting their warmth and craftsmanship.

• Cartooning Influences

  • Besides The New Yorker, Flake draws inspiration from Playboy and Penthouse, favoring humor that is boundary-pushing but deeply human.

• Magazines for Her Daughter

  • Flake hopes her daughter will embrace classics like National Lampoon and even “old Playboys, when the nudes were still tasteful.”

Notable Quotes

• Emily Flake (38:20): “Would you like some candy?” — after reading a heavy passage meant to cheer up listeners.

Timestamps:

• [37:43] – Reading from Lin Yutang
• [39:28] – On “Holiday Magazine” and cartooning

Section 4: Mary Norris, “Comma Queen” — Grammar, Editing, and the Life of a New Yorker Legend

(41:08–54:27)

Main Focus

David Remnick and Mary Norris reflect on her career as a legendary copy editor at The New Yorker, her book, and the evolving state of language and editing.

Key Insights & Discussion Points

• Career Reflections and Breaks

  • Norris’s journey: from odd jobs (including “foot checker” at Cleveland pools) to the editorial library, to a copyediting mainstay at The New Yorker.
    • Mary Norris (47:12): “It was a good way to get to hang around a pool all summer… because I wanted to be financially independent and I wanted a little cash.”
  • Her pride in making small but important corrections, like “flour”/“flower” in an early proof, and her eventual ascent to a “comma queen.”

• Editing Philosophy

  • Details the meticulous yet organic nature of editing at the magazine, including dealing with legendary editors like William Shawn and the gradual acceptance of profanity and changing norms.
    • Mary Norris (51:21): “William Shawn just thought there should be other ways of expressing yourself than just always swearing…”

• Changing Language Instruction

  • She addresses shifts in grammar education over generations, wondering if mastery is truly declining or just evolving:
    • Mary Norris (53:04): “I think that an older generation got a more rigorous education in grammar… I don’t think they learn a lot of grammar. I don’t know how much it matters…”

• Who Decides What’s Correct?

  • Norris underscores that usage, not rigid rules, ultimately governs the language:
    • Mary Norris (53:57): “Common usage is what eventually carries the day… If people continue to do something a certain way, eventually that's what’s going to be right.”

Notable Quotes

• Mary Norris (45:55): “I learned the difference between being a writer and being an author… I was very thirsty and wanted very badly to be edited.”
• David Remnick (53:43): “In matters of law, there’s the Supreme Court... but in matters of the English language, who decides?”

Timestamps:

• [47:12] – On being a “foot checker”
• [49:56] – Notable copyediting catch
• [51:21] – The era of swearing at The New Yorker
• [53:04] – Grammar education, old and new
• [53:57] – Who decides on grammar

Final Observations

• This episode is a tapestry of culture, politics, and humor, showing how personalities like Lily Tomlin and editors like Mary Norris have shaped American arts and letters.
• The Moscow/Trump segment is a snapshot of the confusion and stakes at a pivotal moment in global politics.
• The lighter segments on cartooning and editing provide breadth and laughter, reminding listeners of the joys of the written and illustrated word.

Notable Quotes (At-a-Glance)

• “She doesn’t use anything demeaning to black women in the skit at all.” – Hilton Als (02:30)
• “I absolutely flipped over her as soon as I saw her.” – Lily Tomlin (06:04)
• “What they were doing then is essentially trying to weaken her as a likely president and weaken the American political system as a whole.” – Joshua Yaffa (33:44)
• “Common usage is what eventually carries the day… eventually that's what’s going to be right.” – Mary Norris (53:57)

Segment Timestamps

• [00:29–18:24] Lily Tomlin & Jane Wagner
• [20:01–34:54] The Russia Story
• [35:29–41:01] Emily Flake, Cartooning & Escapism
• [41:08–54:27] Mary Norris, Grammar & Editing

This summary should provide listeners and non-listeners alike with a vivid sense of the episode’s content, flow, and memorable highlights.