Love, War, and the Magical Lamb-Brain Sandwiches of Aleppo, Syria

Summary

The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: Love, War, and the Magical Lamb-Brain Sandwiches of Aleppo, Syria
Date: July 10, 2018
Host: David Remnick
Guests/Reporters: Adam Davidson, Jenny Allen, Dan Pashman, Shadi Martini, Imad Serjiya

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Brief Overview

This episode explores the personal and cultural significance of a legendary sandwich from Aleppo, Syria—especially the lamb-brain variety—through the intertwined stories of war correspondents, Syrian expatriates, and food obsessives. It journeys from fond food memories to war and loss, ultimately reflecting on identity, exile, and the resilience of culinary traditions. The segment is part culinary detective story, part meditation on memory and displacement, anchored by attempts to rediscover and perhaps resurrect the magic of the famed Sergiya sandwich shop.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Riff: Jenny Allen's "Would Everyone Please Stop?" (00:50–03:00)

• Jenny Allen humorously laments the overuse or misuse of words and phrases (“iteration,” “toxic,” “it’s all good,” “ginormous”).
  • “Could people stop calling other people toxic? Pol Pot was toxic, but your cranky mailman isn’t. He's just annoying.” — Jenny Allen (01:27)
  • “Let us quit saying get over it. It’s too mean. We’re trying to get over it.” — Jenny Allen (02:13)
• Sets a personal, reflective, ironic tone for the rest of the episode.

2. The Origin Story: Adam Davidson’s Aleppo Sandwich Memory (04:06–08:53)

• Adam Davidson and Jenny Allen, reporters in Baghdad in late 2003, escape to Aleppo for a break from conflict.
• Vivid description of Aleppo as “beautiful, kind of crazy, deep history,” featuring medieval and French architecture (04:49–05:46).
• Their friend Issa Tuma introduces them to a local sandwich shop featuring exotic fillings, especially lamb brains.
  • “If you needed a hammer, a blacksmith would bang out a hammer for you.” — Adam Davidson (05:22)
  • “There was a tray of sheep brains… just these like, big brain jewels in a row.” — Jenny Allen (06:36)
• Both decide to eat tongue instead of brain; their memories are intense but fuzzy on details—a reminder of food as both an anchor and a blur in memory.

3. Obsession & Investigation: Dan Pashman’s Quest to Recreate the Sandwich (08:53–22:27)

• Dan Pashman (of podcast "The Sporkful") is drawn into the quest to find, taste, or at least document the Aleppo sandwich.
  • “Would it be possible to recreate this sandwich?” — Dan Pashman (09:06)
• Adam and Jenny's recollections are checked against facts: corn or not, tongue or brain, pickles or radishes? The details proliferate but remain just out of reach.
  • “The bald leg sandwich definitely had corn in it.” — Adam Davidson (21:43)
• Contact with Issa Tuma confirms the shop’s name: Sergiya; the team traces its possible fate after war damage, hears rumors most shops destroyed except one.

4. Voices from Aleppo: The Martini Family & Shadi’s Story (12:03–15:56)

• Shadi Martini describes his Aleppo upbringing, memories of sandwich shops, and the unique taste of lamb-brain sandwiches.
  • “When you eat it, it's delicious to eat. When you hear it, it's weird.” — Shadi Martini (13:00)
• Reveals personal cost of war: helped wounded protesters, smuggled supplies, became a refugee when regime targeted him—now can never return.
  • “Aleppo is three and a half million, but still it’s like a small town where everyone knows each other.” — Shadi Martini (13:49)
• Memorable moment: Shadi recalls watching government propaganda with strangers in a sandwich shop—all break into spontaneous laughter at obvious lies (14:50).

5. Connecting with Sergiya: Imad Serjiya & Recipes from Home (17:53–21:50)

• Through the diaspora, they connect with Imad Serjiya in Aleppo via a secure video link.
• Imad can’t openly discuss politics but shares detailed recipes and expresses profound pride in their craft:
  • “Seven hours for the tongue to get cured. They add vinegar.” — Imad Serjiya (19:11)
  • “We love our craft. We were raised doing it... they cook with sentiment, like they—with a lot of love.” — Imad Serjiya (19:51)
• Mythbusting: Imad disputes Adam and Jen’s “corn memory”—the sandwich may not have contained corn, or perhaps memories have blurred.

6. Exile, Survival, and Memory (22:27–27:00)

• Pashman reflects on food, memory, and exile—how food holds a place long after places themselves are lost.
  • “The sandwich doesn’t die when Aleppo dies. Aleppo dies when the sandwich dies.” — Dan Pashman (22:50)
  • Bruce Springsteen’s metaphor: “He [Clarence Clemons] doesn’t leave the band when he dies. He leaves when we die.”
• Shadi Martini eventually visits the new Sergiya in Istanbul with food writer Dalia Mortada; the experience sparks trauma and nostalgia.
  • “Just same taste, takes you back home... But then, you recognize that you’re not coming back, you’re not going back anymore. That’s it. That’s how you’re gonna remember where you lived.” — Shadi Martini (26:28)
• A bittersweet reminder of food’s unique capacity to bridge memory and loss.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Adam Davidson on transformation:
  “This changes what a sandwich can be. This changes how I’m going to think about sandwiches for the rest of my life.” (04:12)
• Imad Serjiya on craft:
  “When they cook, they cook with sentiment, like they—with a lot of love.” (19:51)
• Dan Pashman on nostalgia and survival:
  “The sandwich doesn’t die when Aleppo dies. Aleppo dies when the sandwich dies.” (22:50)
• Shadi Martini on trauma and exile:
  “You get everything back and you recognize that you’re not coming back, you’re not going back anymore. That’s it.” (26:28)
• Bittersweet humor about memory:
  “On our wedding bands, it says, ‘Our love is like the corn on a Sergiya sandwich.’” — Adam Davidson (22:19)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:50–03:00 — Jenny Allen’s “Would Everyone Please Stop?” (humorous opener)
• 04:06–08:53 — Adam and Jenny remember Aleppo and the legendary sandwich
• 08:53–22:27 — Dan Pashman’s detective work: tracking the sandwich and its makers
• 12:03–15:56 — Shadi Martini’s memories of growing up in Aleppo and becoming a refugee
• 17:53–21:50 — Conversation with Imad Serjiya in Aleppo: recipe details, survival
• 22:27–27:00 — Reflections on food, memory, loss, and the sandwich’s endurance; Shadi’s emotional revisit to Sergiya (Istanbul)
• 26:28 — Shadi’s poignant realization about exile and memory
• 27:14–End — Closing reflections and episode credits

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Episode Tone & Takeaways

• The episode’s tone fluidly shifts—from ironic and comedic, to nostalgic and bittersweet, to reflective and poignant.
• At its core, it’s about how food is intertwined with home, identity, and memory—especially when home becomes unreachable.
• The legendary sandwich of Aleppo becomes a symbol for cultural resilience and for the indelible marks of love and loss left by conflict and exile.

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For listeners and readers:
This episode uses the simple act of remembering a sandwich to tell a much richer tale about war, nostalgia, love, and belonging. The sergiya sandwich—messy in memory, irreproducible in reality—carries with it a city, a people, and the complex legacy of survival.

Transcript

[Jenny Allen]

This is World Trade center bound, One.

[Shadi Martini]

World Observatory straight on the block for.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

West Boulevard and makes that right.

[Adam Davidson]

I basically just think it'd be interesting to look at the emergence of a criminal economy.

[Shadi Martini]

And also I'm always amazed that there.

[Adam Davidson]

Aren'T more profiles of her out there.

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

This really subversive, strange thing in rap.

[Shadi Martini]

Especially, and see what their lives are.

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

Like on both sides of the border.

[Narrator / Host]

From one World Trade center in Manhattan, this is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

[David Remnick]

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Jenny Allen is a writer and a performer and she's got a few things she'd like to say. Or more to the point, a few things she'd like you not to say.

[Jenny Allen]

Would everybody please stop. Would everybody please stop saying iteration? Who started iteration? Isn't it just a stuck up version of version? Not everything is surreal. Some things are merely strange or odd or some other similar adjective. Going to your college reunion and seeing how old everyone looks isn't surreal. It's just kind of sad and a little funny. You know what's not funny anymore? Ginormous. It would be great if everyone would stop saying that. Unless you're talking about, say, cancer. Would everyone please stop referring to the toxins in people's bodies? A malignant tumor is a toxin. The bacteria lining your intestines are not. They're supposed to be there. Similarly, could people stop calling other people toxic? Pol Pot was toxic, but your cranky mailman isn't. He's just annoying. Could we lose have a good one and go back to have a good day or better. Goodbye. Regarding it's all good. Not all of it is good. Some of it is tragic. As for sad events, let us quit saying get over it. It's too mean. We're trying to get over it. D Plane is a word that the airline industry made up like Jetway to make airplane travel sound efficient and glamorous. Unless we're flight attendants, we don't have to use that word better to say. After we sat on the Runway for two hours, they canceled the flight for no reason and we all had to get off the plane. Thank you so much for cooperating. Goodbye.

[David Remnick]

That's the writer and performer Jenny Allen reading. Would everyone please stop? It's the title piece in her new collection and you can find everything she's written for the new [e-mail].

[Interviewer / Reporter]

This is.

[David Remnick]

The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. I'm going to turn things over now to staff writer Adam Davidson. Adam was a war correspondent covering the Iraq war for Marketplace, and he worked for npr. Now he covers business and politics and what happens when you have a businessman in the White House for the New Yorker. In 2017, a year into one of the most turbulent, convulsive presidential administrations ever, Adam Davidson took the time to tell us about a sandwich.

[Adam Davidson]

This isn't just any sandwich. This is the best sandwich I've ever had. And I've never had the experience before of while eating a sandwich, thinking, this changes what a sandwich can be. This changes how I'm going to think about sandwiches for the rest of my life. This was at the end of 2003, and my wife and I. Well, she was my girlfriend at the time. We were reporters in Baghdad, and we took a Christmas vacation for Christmas.

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

New Year's, 2003, 2004.

[Adam Davidson]

Yeah, we did New Year's in Lebanon. So. And the next day. So it was literally January 1, 2004.

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

Yeah, January 1, 2004 was when we went to Syria, and that was our vacation from Iraq. That was our, like, we gotta get out of a war zone. Let's go someplace quiet and beautiful. And honestly, it totally fit the bill at the time. I mean, Aleppo was such a beautiful kind of crazy city. I mean, there's like, a lot of this kind of amazing French architecture, like, side by side with the more, like, medieval stuff.

[Adam Davidson]

And then outside, there's this old city, which was still. If you needed a hammer, like a blacksmith would, like, bang out, would melt metal and back out a hammer for you. And then.

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

And then right in the heart of the city is this massive crusader castle. You know, if you have to be reminded what deep history Aleppo has, like, anytime you look up, it's right there.

[Adam Davidson]

A friend gave us the number of a friend of his, this guy Issa Tuma. He's a photographer in Aleppo. And we ended up spending almost every day of our trip with him. And he kept saying, oh, you have to eat this sandwich. There's a sandwich that's so amazing. And then one day he took us to go get the sandwich. And that sandwich is the thing I remember most vividly about our trip to Aleppo. Yeah. So I remember us walking there, and we walked in, and it was fairly nondescript. Like, there's a long counter with, like, glass displays looking at all the stuff that would go into the sandwiches. And the thing that stuck out at me was there was a tray of sheep brains. It was just a tray with these Brains, These tiny.

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

I mean, they were sort of laid out. They weren't, like, gory in any way. They were just these, like, big brain jewels in a row. And then the other meats were also on display. But somehow, yeah, the sheep brain got, like, pride of place.

[Adam Davidson]

People are walking in and they see us and they're like, ah, you're here for the sandwich. And Issa, like, pretty quickly is like, yeah, they've never had it before.

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

Right.

[Adam Davidson]

We decided not to go with sheep brains.

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

Yeah. I kind of wish we had. I really do. But we didn't. We went conservative.

[Adam Davidson]

Did you have tongue or something?

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

I had the tongue, which felt conservative, but I love tongue. If I may.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Yeah.

[Adam Davidson]

Over the years, we've told a lot of people about our favorite Aleppo sandwich, but one guy, the second we started talking about it, became obsessed. Our friend Dan Pashman. Dan is the host and creator of the podcast the Sporkful. He calls it a show not for foodies, but for people who eat. He and I used to work together at the NPR bureau in New York. So I knew Dan, like, I knew Dan would get interested in this sandwich. But Dan doesn't just get interested in a food. He needs to know it with this microscopic detail.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Do you remember that? Can you describe, like, some of the flavors?

[Adam Davidson]

I remember like, mayonnaise, but, like, more magical than mayonnaise. And I remember corn.

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

Corn, yes, corn. Which somehow, like, it worked.

[Adam Davidson]

A key issue with the sandwich is, like, you don't want too much bread and you don't want too much meat ratios.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Ratio ratios are crucial.

[Adam Davidson]

Yeah. And this was exactly the right.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

And friction and text and textural.

[Adam Davidson]

I remember being very. It held together.

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

Oh, and there must have been a cheese, too. Radishes.

[Adam Davidson]

Radishes.

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

Definitely remember pickled radishes. It's so hard to conjure this up. I think part of the problem could have been it was so good and we were so busy eating that we sort of, like, forgot to focus on what it was that was making, like, the whole so much greater than the sum of the parts.

[Adam Davidson]

I'm going to let Dan Pashman take the story from here.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

So Adam and Jen are telling me this story, and suddenly I get this idea. Would it be possible to recreate this sandwich?

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

To recreate the sandwich? No. Oh, my God. If I took a bite of something that brought back that time and place in a vivid way, as food sometimes can do. I don't know. I think I'd, like, clean your house for you or something.

[Adam Davidson]

I would clean your house. I want to make that very clear.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

I was gonna settle for you just being emotionally moved.

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Adam Davidson]

So my heart says, like. So here's what I would say. So my heart is like, yes, I really want to eat that. And I'd also say, like, particularly right now, it is such an upsetting time to live in a country that so casually and easily insults refugees from Aleppo that somehow sees these poor people as a threat. It's like, no, no. Here's what I think of when I think of the Middle East.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Do you guys remember the name of this place?

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

No, no, no, no.

[Adam Davidson]

But my feeling. Well, I think people from Aleppo.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

If you think if I ask people from Aleppo, they're gonna. And I just described the sandwich.

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

You should. You should reach out to Issa for sure.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Okay. So Adam put me in touch with Issa over Facebook. So after months of back and forth, we finally worked at a time and place. We got Issa in a studio in Austria. The sandwich shop that you took Adam to. Yeah. What was it called?

[Shadi Martini]

Sergiye.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Like, s. It's very, like, popular family name.

[Shadi Martini]

I don't know.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Oh, it's a family name. Okay. Issa hadn't been there in a while, so there was a lot that he either didn't remember or didn't know for sure. But the most important facts we got from him were, number one, the name of the place, Sergiya. He also told us he didn't know for sure whether the original location was still around. He said at its peak, there were three. He had heard the two had been destroyed, but he thought maybe the original Sergia by the public garden. Okay. Might still be there. And that gave us hope. What was your favorite sandwich to get?

[Shadi Martini]

I eat usually the Rosto because I like it.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Yeah, a lot. Rosto.

[Adam Davidson]

Yeah.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Right. Can you describe to me what. What it takes? What does it taste like? Some corner in your stomach will test. They will discover it. You're saying there's a special place in your stomach. For the first time, maybe you will feel that your stomach is smiling, happy. Right. And so from there, we just cast a wide net, and we just started putting out the call to Syrian refugee organizations, Syrian American friends, friends in immigrant food communities. And we basically just said, we're looking for people from Aleppo who know the sandwich shop Sergia. And that's how we found Shadi Martini.

[Shadi Martini]

Well, my name is Shadi Martini. I was born in Aleppo, Syria, and I lived through my young years, through high school in Aleppo.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Shadi comes from a very wealthy family in Aleppo. In fact, his Last name Martini is also the name of a neighborhood in Aleppo and it's the name of a hospital that his family owns, Martini Hospital in the neighborhood called Martini. And he loves to eat. Are there other food memories you have from your childhood or from growing up? Like, what are some of the foods you associate with your home and your family?

[Shadi Martini]

When I was young in Aleppo, we mainly had different kind of sandwiches, which might be weird for people from the US to hear about.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Like what? Can you give me an example?

[Shadi Martini]

Well, one of them is the lamb brain. The tongue of the lamb and brain.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

I mean, I have not eaten lamb brain, but can you describe it to me?

[Shadi Martini]

Oh, it's delicious. First they boil it in water, then they will put some spices. You know, there is this seven spice that they use mainly with it. And they would use some lemon and something to make it a little bit, you know, sour. And it's delicious. When you hear it, it's weird, but when you eat it, it's delicious to eat.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

And what about the brain sandwich at Sergia? Do you remember that sandwich?

[Shadi Martini]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I remember every sandwich. Not only at Sergia, at other places also, because I love these sandwiches. And aleppo is a 24 hour city, like it never sleeps. So you can go out and eat the sandwiches. Even 3 o' clock in the morning, 4 o', clock, it's okay.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

When's the last time you had that sandwich?

[Shadi Martini]

Oh, it's been a while. It's been since I left Aleppo in 2012. But I love eating, going to these places because of the memories, because of the people. You know them, you know, you know them all your life. Aleppo, as much as it's a big city, it's like three and a half million, but still it's like small town, like where everyone knows each other. So that's the stuff I missed.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

When Shadi says he left Aleppo in 2012, well, it's a little more complicated than that. He was running his family hospital in Aleppo and he started working against the government. He was treating injured protesters and sneaking them out the back door of the hospital so they wouldn't get arrested by the secret police. He even started smuggling medical supplies around the region to people in need. Eventually though, the government figured out what he was doing. He managed to get out of the country, but he can never go back. Do you remember the last time you went to Sergiyeh?

[Shadi Martini]

We go all the time, so probably in 2012. But the last memory I remember was that they were watching TV in one of the places and there was something in Some media outlet that sent something about what's happening in Syria. And the government's line was, these are all terrorists, extremists, radicals, Islamists that want to overthrow the government. And we were all watching, but we didn't know each other. And then spontaneously, we just started laughing. Somehow we just connected by looking at each other to understand that what was said on the national TV station was a total lie describing these people. Because most of the people, we knew them. We knew them personally, you know, we knew who they are. We knew that they were, you know, just normal people. Like any one of us.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

We got a lot of good information from Shadi. And like Issa, he had heard rumors that Sergio was still there. He couldn't tell us for sure, but. But we heard that from other people we were talking to also. It just seemed impossible to us. And then finally, we found a woman who still has family in Aleppo, and she confirmed it. Sergiya is still there. Hey, guys.

[Adam Davidson]

Hey, man.

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

Hey.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

So I've been working on the mission.

[Adam Davidson]

The sandwich mission? Yes, the Aleppo sandwich.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

The Aleppo sandwich. The sandwich place is called Sergia. Sergiya.

[Adam Davidson]

Sergiya.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Yes.

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

That is a familiar ring. So is it still.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

It still exists? It does. It's still there.

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

Oh, my God.

[Adam Davidson]

Wow.

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

That actually, I think I'm gonna tear up a little bit.

[Adam Davidson]

That makes me hard to believe.

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

So happy to hear. Wow.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Just recently, we got a new lead. Okay. A woman named Fadia. Syrian, American. She's been in the US for but 30 years. She knows Sergia, and she called them.

[Adam Davidson]

Seriously? She did.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

And she said, there's a radio show in America that's looking for you.

[Adam Davidson]

Wow.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Wow. Wow. Yeah. So we made plans to go up to Westchester to see Fadia. My producer Ann, took a day out of maternity leave to get back on the job, and. And we went up to Westchester, and that's how it happened that I ended up sitting in Fadia's living room in Westchester talking through an iPad app that the Syrian government can't track with Imad Serjiya.

[Imad Serjiya]

What do you want to ask him first?

[Interviewer / Reporter]

First is, how is he doing? He is the son of the founder of Sergiya, who opened the restaurant in the 70s. He passed away, and now his sons run the place. You could tell when we first started talking to Imad that he was wary. Fadia makes a point of telling him it's just a show about food, nothing political. I asked how he's doing, and Fadia says he can't answer that. Or if he does, he's not Going to tell you the truth, if anyone, especially someone as well known as the guy who runs this famous sandwich shop, if anyone is seen talking badly about the government or the state of things, they could be in trouble. So you think even if things were bad there, he would be afraid to say it to us because he doesn't know who we are?

[Imad Serjiya]

He can't. No, he can't say it to me.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

The restaurant that was in the mall, that was destroyed. How was it destroyed? No, can't ask about that. Okay. But then we start talking about the food, and I start asking him, how do they make the tongue sandwich? How do you make the brain sandwich? What's in this salad? What's the mayo? And all of a sudden, you hear this passion in his voice.

[Imad Serjiya]

Ooh, seven hours.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Seven hours what?

[Imad Serjiya]

Seven hours for the tongue to get cured. They add vinegar.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

And from there, I just proceeded to nerd out on recipes with Imad Serjiya. The mayo is homemade, and it has garlic in it. There are all different salads you can choose to put on your sandwich. One has olives and oregano and lemon juice. Another has corn in it. There's a sandwich called the fajita sandwich, which isn't a fajita, but it may have corn, but it might have been the one that Adam got, but it might not have been. The brain is boiled with rosemary and bay leaves, but you can't overcook it or it turns mushy. You have to chill it to be able to slice it. And then Imad says, we love our craft. We were raised doing it.

[Imad Serjiya]

They like what they're doing. That's what he said. He said that they love what they're doing. And we say in Arabic, they call it, you know, like, meditation. When they cook, they cook with sentiment, like they. With a lot of love.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

There's one more thing I needed to talk to Imad about. We had heard from a bunch of people that there was a sergiya open in Istanbul. And that's plausible. The families behind a lot of famous restaurants in Syria have left and opened up shop elsewhere. We heard that there's a sergiye in Istanbul. Can you ask him if it's part of his family that's opened that restaurant?

[Imad Serjiya]

But this is one of the workers that he works for him. He went and used his name and put, you know. But he's in a good relationship with him, Yani Mahue. He does everything that they do. But since he is very well known.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

At this point, I had learned a lot about Sergius sandwiches. I'd also learned a thing or two about the reliability of Adam and Jen's memories. So, Shadi, he said that the lamb brains. The brain sandwich, is his favorite. And he said that typically, they toast it. They top it with homemade pickled cucumbers, which maybe when you were talking about radishes, Jen, that could have been the cucumbers that you were thinking about.

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

Well, I said I thought it was fresh radishes plus regular pickles, so I do remember the pickles.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Yeah. Right, right. He does not have any recollection of there being any corn in your sandwiches.

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

That's so funny, because that's the one thing both of us agree on that's really funny.

[Adam Davidson]

The bald leg sandwich definitely had corn in it.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Right.

[Adam Davidson]

So that might be. Maybe we shove the corn from one sandwich into the other in our memories.

[Imad Serjiya]

Maybe.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

See, I'm feeling torn now, because on one hand, I feel like I'm getting closer to the sandwich. We're making progress, but it's become the more information I get, the less it sounds like what you described to me. I feel like I'm re. Engineering your memories.

[Adam Davidson]

Yes. Were we in love?

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Yes. Phew. And so, although I have to, because.

[Adam Davidson]

On our wedding bands, it says, our love is like the corn on a sergia sandwich.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

We can buff that out. Okay, that'll buck out. By now, it was pretty clear to me that I was not gonna be able to recreate this sandwich. And it was probably foolish for me to ever think that I could. But I guess the reason why I was so obsessed with this mission was that, you know, we all know the power of biting into a food and having it trigger a memory of having a food transport you to a place. And it seems especially powerful to be able to be transported to a place that doesn't exist anymore, or at least doesn't exist, the way anyone remembers kind of reminded me. It's a bit of a detour, but follow me. It reminded me of something Bruce Springsteen once said. When Clarence Clemens died, he was the saxophone player for Bruce's East Street Band, and he was the most popular guy in the band. At the funeral, Bruce said, clarence doesn't leave the E Street Band when he dies. He leaves when we die. And I kept thinking about that with this sandwich. Like, the sandwich doesn't die when Aleppo dies. Aleppo dies when the sandwich dies. That brings us back to Shadi Martini. These days, he lives with his family in the Detroit area, and he works with Syrian refugees. I heard that there's a sergiyeh that Opened in Istanbul.

[Shadi Martini]

Yeah, I heard about that, but I've never been there. A lot of these, they technically are refugees. They are refugees, but they are entrepreneurs. So a lot of them went out and re established themselves. Their businesses, their shops.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Am I right that you go to Istanbul once in a while for your work?

[Shadi Martini]

Yeah, I go.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Shadi, next time you're in Istanbul, I want you to go to Sergiye and I want you to report back to me. Send me the bill, I'll buy you. I'm gonna buy you a sandwich. All right?

[Shadi Martini]

I don't worry about it. When I come to New York, take me to dinner in New York. I'll pay for the sandwich.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

A counteroffer. Yeah, on the right.

[Shadi Martini]

Oh, yeah. Well, is it? No, I see it. So let's go and have some sandwiches.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Shady went to Sergia with Dalia Mortada. She's a Syrian American food writer who was living in Istanbul at the time.

[Shadi Martini]

Let's go.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Is there anything missing or are you like, okay, I know exactly what I want?

[Shadi Martini]

No, I know exactly what I want. But yeah, it's different. What's different? So for instance, the type of vegetables, the type of meats. A little bit is different.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Are you excited right now?

[Shadi Martini]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Okay. Where would you like to stand? There?

[Shadi Martini]

Yeah. Do we order or.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

I just asked him to cut them.

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

In the middle so that I can.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Get shots of the.

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

Of the sandwiches, like from the inside.

[Shadi Martini]

Okay.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

If that's okay with you.

[Shadi Martini]

Oh, yeah. Okay.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

You want it, you want it home?

[Jen (Jenny Allen)]

Okay. Cancel that if you want.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

No.

[Shadi Martini]

Yeah, it's a small stuff. You know how you want your. Yeah, we never, we never cut them in the middle or. He assured me that he's doing it like he's supposed to. No changes, no fancy stuff. Don't do the European stuff. I just want the old Olympian sandwich. That's it. This one is. This one's nibbery. That's a simple one. That's a sandwich. That's how I like it.

[Interviewer / Reporter]

Perfect.

[Shadi Martini]

Just same taste, takes you back home. The lemon is just hits you. The taste does get flashbacks, you know, that's. That's. That's the problem that we are always all facing, you know, especially called left Aleppo in the last like five years or sooner after when, you know, military activity started. We've seen so many stuff left. Such a big trauma. All of us, we're all traumatized. Even our kids, our family. Everyone's traumatized now. Sometimes we, you know how to deal with it. We try to block it from our memory. We try to remember the good stuff. Then when you get something like this, you get everything back and you get, you know, you recognize that you're not coming back, you're not going back anymore. That's it. That's how you're gonna remember where you lived. So it's, it's tough sometimes, but you know, enjoy the food.

[David Remnick]

That was Shadi Martini at the Sergija Sandwich Shop in Istanbul. Dan Pashman reports every week on his podcast the Sporkful, which is not about food, but about eating, as he likes to say. That's it for this week. See you next week. And don't forget to follow us on Twitter. We're at New yorkerradio.

[Narrator / Host]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Alexis Quadrado. This episode was produced by Alex Barron, Emily Botin, Abe Carrillo, Rhiannon Corby, Jill Duboff, Karen Frillman, David Krasnow, Louis Mitchell, Sarah Nix, Mytha Lee Rao, Stephen Valentino and Richard Ye, with help from Rhonda Sherman, David Ohana, Terrence Bernardo, Michelle Moses, Emily Mann and Jessica Henderson. The Aleppo Sandwich story was produced in collaboration with the Sporkful with help from Ann Saini. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Torina Endowment Fund.