The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: Marlon James Builds His Own Damn Universe

Date: February 5, 2019
Host: David Remnick
Notable Guest: Marlon James (interview with Gia Tolentino); also includes a business segment with Ron Shaikh (former CEO of Panera Bread) and Sheila Kolhatkar

Overview

This episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour is split into two distinctive halves. The first is an insightful, freewheeling conversation with novelist Marlon James and Gia Tolentino about James' new African fantasy trilogy, his creative inspirations, and his personal journey as a genre lover and literary innovator. The second segment investigates the impact of activist investors on American companies, focusing on Ron Shaikh’s experience as Panera’s CEO.

Segment 1: Marlon James Builds His Own Damn Universe (00:09–14:31)

Main Themes

• Creation and significance of James' "Dark Star Trilogy" (specifically, the novel Black Leopard, Red Wolf)
• The need for inclusivity and new perspectives in the fantasy genre
• Literary and pop culture influences on James’ writing
• Structural innovation in epic storytelling

Key Discussion Points

The Origins of a New Fantasy Universe

• James’ desire to write an “African Game of Thrones” grew out of disappointment with the lack of diversity and inclusion in fantasy media:

  • Quote: "I just got tired of that debate, tired of the question about inclusion and then the backlash against asking for inclusion. I was like, you know what? I'll just build my own damn universe." — Marlon James (03:25)

• His new approach is rooted in African folktales, epic storytelling traditions (e.g., Sundiata, Askia Mohammed), and a different metaphysical outlook than traditional Eurocentric fantasy.

Reimagining Genre Conventions

• Tolentino and James discuss how fantasy and sci-fi have often perpetuated colonialist, Western perspectives:

  • Quote: "People can imagine a whole imaginary world but not imagine black people in it." — Gia Tolentino (03:19)

  • James notes that African and diasporic storytelling often doesn’t separate the real and surreal:

    Quote: "This sort of absence of the surreal and the supernatural being a mark of realism, whatever that might mean, has always seemed ludicrous to me." — Marlon James (05:04)

Literary Influences & Magical Realism

• James' perspective on authors like Toni Morrison and Gabriel García Márquez:

  • Morrison’s Beloved and Song of Solomon exemplify how Black narratives use magical elements to express reality.

  • Márquez’s “magical realism” simply felt like realism to James:

    Quote: "It wasn't magical to me. In fact, it legitimized the crazy thoughts in my head." — Marlon James (05:13)

Building Unpredictable, Complex Characters

• Main character Tracker (narrator): a bounty hunter with a magically gifted nose.
• James’ favorite characters to write (excluding Tracker):

  • Ogo, the motormouth giant who subverts genre tropes.

  • Saughland, the 315-year-old “moon witch” whose complexity has her narrate the next novel.

    Quote: "I like writing characters who I have to have a very complicated relationship with." — Marlon James (08:01)

Structural Innovations in Storytelling

• Trilogy structured in a “Rashomon-esque” fashion: three books, each with a different narrator recounting overlapping quest stories—a literary approach inspired by the TV series The Affair.

  Quote: "It's three people telling different versions of the same quest." — Interviewer/Gia Tolentino (08:08)

Literary Canons and Rebellion

• James’ favorite Pride and Prejudice character: Mrs. Bennet, because she’s keenly aware of her daughters’ social realities.

• Least favorite novel in the canon: Wuthering Heights; he critiques it for lack of true psychology and depth:

  Quote: "I keep trying. I tried last year... Summer was the third time I tried. I just don't think it's this sort of deeply psychological novel that people think..." — Marlon James (11:07)

Pop Culture, Comics, and Music

• Early love for Batman, but the X-Men became central, especially Storm and Mystique, who complicated the line between heroes and villains.

• Music as writing inspiration: Miles Davis’ Bitches Brew, Stereolab’s Dots and Loops—James writes to rhythm.

• If Tracker existed today, he’d listen to Vince Staples for his dryness, sarcasm, and social commentary.

  Quote: "Vince Staples is wry and sarcastic... he would totally... Hell, he would be Vince Staples." — Marlon James (14:03)

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• “People can imagine a whole imaginary world but not imagine black people in it.” (03:19)
• “I'll just build my own damn universe.” — Marlon James (03:43)
• On magical realism:
  “It wasn't magical to me. In fact, it legitimized the crazy thoughts in my head.” (05:13)
• On favorite Pride and Prejudice character:
  “I love Mrs. Bennet... she’s the only person realizing I need to get these women married because these women are running out of time.” (10:49)
• On Wuthering Heights:
  “If one of those three girls wrote a novel, it would be Wuthering Heights.” (11:32)
• On Storm from X-Men:
  “I always envied somebody so really radically defending herself...” (12:09)
• On writing to music:
  “Probably Miles Davis, Bitch's Brew, Stereolab’s Dots and Loops. It gets me in a rhythm and I think I write to rhythm and I think I write to beat.” (13:25)

[14:31–14:57]

Marlon James shifts to a playful segment about his phobias and music superstitions (originating from his appearance on another podcast, 10 Things That Scare Me), such as not listening to heavy metal while flying to avoid bad luck.

“I'm not religious anymore, but I can't listen to heavy metal on flights... So no White Zombie, no Black Sabbath, no Electric wizard, just in case God gets pissed.” — Marlon James (15:17)

Segment 2: The Real Cost of Corporate “Activism” (16:31–27:44)

Main Themes

• Impact of activist investors on American companies
• Tensions between short-term shareholder value and long-term company health and innovation

Key Discussion Points

Who Are Activist Investors?

• Not “socially responsible do-gooders,” but hedge fund managers pushing public companies for fast stock gains, often through cost-cutting and restructuring.
• Quote: "By definition, activist investing is a little bit adversarial and a little uncomfortable." — Sheila Kolhatkar (16:56)

The Panera Bread Story

• Ron Shaikh recounts activist investment firms pushing Panera to make short-term decisions, such as hiking prices—often at the cost of customer loyalty and long-term viability.

• He describes activists’ focus on rapid shareholder returns as fundamentally at odds with building sustainable businesses.

  Quote: “It's always easy in the short term to squeeze, but the question is, what's its price, medium and long term?” — Ron Shaikh (19:02)

Public Markets, Short-Termism, and Societal Costs

• In the past, shareholders held stocks for years—now, for months; this has “changed the way in which our companies are operating.”
• Shaikh ultimately chose to take Panera private to preserve its long-term vision and decision-making ability.
• He links the same pressures to Whole Foods’ sale to Amazon, arguing the latter’s private ownership means it can make necessary long-term transformations.

Solutions and Stakes

• Shaikh suggests reforms: rewarding long-term shareholders, adjusting executive compensation to incentivize long-term thinking.

• The shift to short-termism, he argues, widens inequality and stifles innovation, harming workers and the broader U.S. economy.

  Quote: “If you're in Michigan and you're in a factory and that factory is owned by a company that was just taken over by activist investors and that company makes a decision to cut jobs, who do you think ends up being at the loss?” — Ron Shaikh (25:48)

Notable Quotes and Moments

• On why public markets are shifting:
  “What used to be the prevailing mantra—we had a responsibility to our communities and a responsibility to our guests as well as our shareholders. We've increasingly moved to a world that says the only thing that matters is whether I can pop that stock next week.” — Ron Shaikh (20:22)
• On the cost of short-term thinking:
  “We're not getting the innovation. We're also frankly doing damage across the country. And there’s an ultimate implication to that.” — Ron Shaikh (25:48)
• On the need for systemic reform:
  “The time to worry about a heart attack is not in the ambulance on the way to the hospital.” — Ron Shaikh (25:39)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:09–14:31 — Marlon James and Gia Tolentino on fantasy, genre, and character building
• 14:31–16:31 — Marlon James' appearance on “10 Things That Scare Me”
• 16:31–27:44 — Sheila Kolhatkar and Ron Shaikh on activist investors and the future of American business

Summary Takeaways

For Literary & Culture Fans:

• Marlon James is reinventing epic fantasy, centering African tradition and disrupting genre conventions.
• The episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in representation, the power of narrative, and how pop culture shapes literary creativity.

For Business & Economics Listeners:

• The second half delivers accessible, vivid explanations for why so many American workers and communities suffer even when companies appear successful, shining a spotlight on investor-driven short-termism as a root cause.

This episode showcases the importance of hard-won creative independence, whether in epic fiction or in corporate leadership—offering both inspiration and a sober look at the systems that shape contemporary culture and business.