Podcast Summary – The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: Masha Gessen on Trump and Russia, and a Former Border Agent on the U.S.-Mexico Border
Date: February 23, 2018
Host: David Remnick
Guests: Masha Gessen (journalist and author), Francisco Cantú (former Border Patrol agent), Sarah Stillman (New Yorker staff writer)

Overview

This episode explores the intersection of politics, authoritarianism, and personal experience from two unique vantage points. First, Masha Gessen, a Russian-American journalist and expert on both Vladimir Putin’s Russia and Donald Trump’s America, discusses democracy, totalitarianism, and the complexities of the Trump-Russia scandal. The second half features Francisco Cantú, a former Border Patrol agent, describing the psychological and ethical realities of working on the U.S.-Mexico border and grappling with the politics and emotions of border enforcement.

Part I: Masha Gessen – Trump, Russia, and the Authoritarian Mindset

(00:48–17:19)

Background and Perspective

• On Her Unique Perspective
  • Gessen, raised in Soviet Russia and now a U.S. resident, feels "gifted with this special pair of eyeglasses" to spot authoritarian tendencies (04:19).
  • “I was brought up in opposition to the regime… I see things and I see them. I can point them out, which to me feels pretty easy.” (04:19)
• Family History
  • Both grandmothers were translators; family legends differentiated one as a conformist (a Stalin-era censor), the other as fearless—though reality was more nuanced (05:31–06:25).
  • “As a history teacher, I would have had to lie to children every day. So I couldn’t do that. So I got a job as a censor.” (06:14)

Emigration and the Soviet Experience

• Leaving the Soviet Union
  • They left in 1981, believing the USSR would never change. The subsequent arrival of perestroika was hard to process (07:48).
  • “Everyone was convinced that the Soviet Union was going to last forever… the opportunity to build a different life elsewhere was worth just about any sacrifice.” (07:48)
• Ambivalence About Leaving
  • Gessen was reluctant as a teen: “I didn’t want to leave. I wanted to stay where my friends were, where my grandmothers were.” (08:27)
  • Her mother’s words: “In this country, you can either sacrifice your life to fighting the regime or leave. And this country never did enough for us to sacrifice our lives for fighting the regime.” (08:38)

Putin, Trump, and the Russian Scandal

• On Putin’s Enduring Power
  • “Putin is still president… I want to take that controversial stand right now. I think he’s going to win [the March election].” – David Remnick (08:55)
• On Trump’s Russia Scandal—Skepticism and Realities
  • Gessen acknowledges interference but doubts it was decisive: “I’m very skeptical of using Russian interference to explain Trump.” (09:50)
  • She agrees with Glenn Greenwald: focusing excessively on the Russia investigation distracts from other important Trump administration actions (11:00).
  • “Every column inch that’s devoted to the Mueller probe is not devoted to some other thing that the Trump administration is doing that I think is often more important.” (11:00)

The Limits and Meaning of Scandal

• Foreign Influence Is Complex
  • Gessen challenges the oversimplification of “active measures”: “Public opinion is influenced by any number of factors. And I think that the statement that a foreign power cannot be allowed to influence the public opinion of a country… needs to be defended. It can’t be taken for granted.” (12:12)
• Trump’s Financial Ties
  • She doubts Trump is “beholden” to Russia financially:
    • “Trump, who has never paid his debts… I don’t think this guy can be beholden financially to anybody.” (13:02)
    • The real problem: “We have a thoroughly corrupt president who is using his office to make money … connections that are corrupt. But that's the direction I would go.” (13:16)

Democracy and Authoritarianism: What Have We Lost?

• Assessing Damage to Democracy
  • Gessen reframes the question: “I think it’s a question of how much we’re losing. Because… it took hundreds of years to build [institutions]. It’s what we’ve lost.” (14:05)
  • The biggest loss: “We’ve lost an ability to have a political conversation… a conversation in which people with different views come to agreements about how they’re going to inhabit the society together.” (14:43–15:02)
• Political Predictions and Uncertainty
  • On the unknowability of “what we prevent” if Trump leaves office early: “We will never know just how bad it could have gotten.” (16:23–16:38)
  • Gessen expresses cautious hope that resistance could reverse course but remains skeptical. “I’m just being the hysteric in the room.” (16:38)

Part II: Francisco Cantú – The Border Patrol from the Inside

(19:01–34:33)

Motivation and Joining Border Patrol

• From Academia to the Border
  • Cantú’s mother was skeptical of his decision to join Border Patrol after studying international relations (19:01).
  • “All of that learning felt disconnected from the realities of the landscape and the people and the culture that I knew growing up.” (19:25)
  • “Another part of it was that sort of idealism that you have as a 23 year old…” (20:06)
• Naiveté about Institutional Power
  • He confesses: “I do look back on that as being naive… you have so much confidence in yourself… and you begin to lend all of these parts of yourself and your identity…” (21:14)

Daily Realities as an Agent

• Attraction to the Landscape, Disconnection from Consequences
  • “I love the desert… That was in a way exhilarating. But of course… you’re learning to understand the landscape in order to capture people.” (22:42)
  • Day-to-day: tracking, chases, and busts faded; “what really sticks out… are those human moments… interactions… people risking their lives to cross the desert… and I was taking them back to a cell…” (24:16)

Policies and Consequences

• Destruction of Migrants’ Supplies
  • Agents were told to destroy water and blankets to make migrants “quit and come out to the road” (25:04).
  • “That’s… such short-sighted, deadly thinking… people are lost and disoriented and people lose their lives that way.” (25:31)
• Effectiveness of Walls and Enforcement
  • Cantú observed how barriers were easily bypassed by smugglers (26:27).
  • “No matter what obstacle we put at the border, it’s going to be subverted… crossings were down… but border deaths along the desert actually went up.” (27:00)
  • He offers a vivid memory: his encounter with the corpse of a migrant and the agony of explaining to the deceased’s companions why they could not bring the body home (28:18).

Psychological and Physical Toll

• Nightmares and Teeth Grinding
  • Internalizing trauma: “All these dreams where my teeth were crumbling out… my teeth would explode inside my mouth… [the dentist said] you’ve ground through several layers of the enamel…” (29:57)
  • Discusses the “hyper-masculine world” and lack of dialogue about the psychological impact (31:40)

Reflections on Identity and the Nature of Borders

• Power of a Name
  • “A name is a reminder of where you’re from and it’s also sort of a reminder of your parents’ hope for you in the world.” (33:20)
  • Considers how he might have been different if he’d had the more Anglo name his parents first intended, and how that small arbitrariness echoes the randomness of border fate.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “It’s like I was gifted with this special pair of eyeglasses when I was born.” – Masha Gessen, on her ability to recognize authoritarianism (04:19)
• “An easy way to sort of comfort yourself is to say, but look, all the stuff that was here yesterday is still here… The fact that we still have them is not surprising. It’s what we’ve lost.” – Gessen, on institutional resilience and loss (14:05)
• “No matter what obstacle we put at the border, it’s going to be subverted. People will find a way up, over, under, around it.” – Francisco Cantú (27:00)
• “All these dreams where my teeth were crumbling out… when [the dentist] said, ‘you’ve ground through several layers of the enamel’… that was the first time I had a real world manifestation of that sort of, like, subconscious creeping horror.” – Cantú (29:57)
• “A name is a reminder of where you’re from and it’s also sort of a reminder of your parents hope for you in the world.” – Cantú (33:20)

Timestamps of Key Segments

• 00:48–17:19: Masha Gessen interview – origins, Russia, authoritarianism, Trump-Russia, democratic institutions
• 19:01–34:33: Francisco Cantú interview – motivation for Border Patrol, the realities of the job, policy critique, psychological effects, reflections on identity

Tone & Language

The episode maintains an insightful, at times wry, and contemplative tone. Gessen is sharp, analytical, occasionally self-deprecating (“the hysteric in the room”), while Cantú brings measured reflection, raw honesty, and a sense of personal wrestling with guilt, responsibility, and empathy.

This episode offers rare firsthand context on the rise of authoritarianism and the human dimension of border enforcement—essential listening for those interested in the balance of power, democratic erosion, and the cost of political and policy decisions on individual lives.