Michael Wolff on MAGA’s Revolt Over Jeffrey Epstein

Summary

Podcast Summary: The New Yorker Radio Hour
Episode: Michael Wolff on MAGA’s Revolt Over Jeffrey Epstein
Release Date: July 18, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour, host David Remnick engages in a compelling conversation with journalist Michael Wolff, renowned for his in-depth coverage of Donald Trump's political career. The discussion delves into the intricate web connecting Jeffrey Epstein, Donald Trump, and the MAGA movement, exploring the resurgence of conspiracy theories surrounding Epstein's death and their impact on Trump’s ardent supporters.

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Epstein's Death and MAGA Backlash

The conversation opens with the aftermath of Jeffrey Epstein's death in prison, which has fueled suspicions among MAGA supporters about a possible White House cover-up. Wolff underscores the magnitude of the backlash, suggesting it may surpass other political crises such as the tariff issues or the U.S. bombing of Iran.

Michael Wolff ([00:11]): "Jeffrey Epstein's death in prison and the sense that the White House is somehow covering something up is causing a backlash from some of Trump's most ardent supporters. It may be a bigger backlash than even the tariff crisis or the bombing of Iran..."

Wolff explains that within MAGA circles, there is a prevailing belief that Epstein's suicide was orchestrated by Democrats to silence him due to the sensitive information he possessed.

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Michael Wolff's Relationship with Epstein

Wolff reveals his direct interactions with Epstein, having conducted over 100 taped interviews in the years leading up to Epstein's arrest and subsequent death in 2019. He discusses his initial reluctance to rehabilitate Epstein's image despite Epstein's disturbing background.

Michael Wolff ([02:43]): "He wanted you to write about him. This had nothing to do with Donald Trump. Just to be clear, right."

Wolff emphasizes his skepticism about Epstein's intent to be honest and his personal reservations about portraying Epstein in a rehabilitative light.

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Epstein and Trump's Connection

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the longstanding relationship between Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump, dating back to the 1980s. Wolff characterizes their bond as both men being "incredibly amoral" and "out for money and for a good time," sharing similar interests in women and real estate.

Michael Wolff ([06:12]): "Jeffrey Epstein was among the most insightful people I knew or had come upon about Donald Trump and his true character."

Wolff highlights that Epstein provided substantial insights into Trump's personality and character, suggesting a deep and multifaceted relationship.

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Steve Bannon's Fear of Epstein

The conversation shifts to Steve Bannon, a prominent figure in Wolff's Trump books, who also had ties with Epstein. Wolff recounts an incident where Bannon expressed fear of Epstein during the 2016 presidential campaign.

Michael Wolff ([10:35]): "Steve Bannon really feared Jeffrey Epstein... 'You were the only person I was afraid of during the campaign,' he told Epstein."

Bannon's apprehension stems from Epstein's knowledge of potentially damaging secrets about Trump, particularly regarding his behavior with women, which could have jeopardized Trump's campaign.

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Pam Bondi and the Epstein Client List

Wolff addresses the controversy surrounding Pam Bondi, the Attorney General, who previously claimed to possess Epstein's client list but was later contradicted by the Department of Justice.

Michael Wolff ([12:16]): "Pam Bondi, who's now the Attorney General... said, 'It's sitting on my desk right now to review.'"

Wolff infers that Bondi, aligned with Trump, might be attempting to suppress the Epstein connection to protect the administration from further scrutiny.

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MAGA Movement's Future Post-Trump

Discussing the future trajectory of the MAGA movement, Wolff speculates that as Trump enters his "lame duck" years, MAGA supporters are beginning to reposition themselves, potentially distancing from Trump to establish their own leadership within the movement.

Michael Wolff ([16:22]): "They have to begin at some point to position themselves actually against Trump, or at least to push JD Vance... and distinguish themselves."

This internal shift poses challenges as MAGA proponents navigate their identity and influence independent of Trump's direct leadership.

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Michael Wolff’s Challenges and Intentions

Facing resistance from mainstream media and publishers hesitant to tackle the Epstein-Trump nexus, Wolff expresses frustration over the lack of coverage and support for his investigative efforts. Despite criticism and challenges, he remains committed to unveiling what he perceives as crucial journalistic information.

Michael Wolff ([22:01]): "Virtually everybody... has turned down this story. And most recently a publisher of mine... responded, 'This is too icky.'"

Wolff acknowledges the potential impact of his extensive interviews with Epstein but remains uncertain about their reception, hoping for a change in the media landscape that will allow him to tell this story.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with Wolff emphasizing the importance of journalistic integrity and the responsibility to shed light on the complex relationships intertwining powerful figures like Epstein and Trump. As conspiracy theories within the MAGA movement gain traction, Wolff’s insights aim to provide a deeper understanding of the underlying dynamics at play.

Michael Wolff ([24:29]): "I am the person here who is probably is certainly the journalist closest to this story. And that's my job, if someone would let me do it, to tell this story."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Michael Wolff ([00:11]): "Epstein's death in prison and the sense that the White House is somehow covering something up is causing a backlash from some of Trump's most ardent supporters."

• Michael Wolff ([02:43]): "He wanted you to write about him. This had nothing to do with Donald Trump. Just to be clear, right."

• Michael Wolff ([06:12]): "Jeffrey Epstein was among the most insightful people I knew or had come upon about Donald Trump and his true character."

• Michael Wolff ([10:35]): "Steve Bannon really feared Jeffrey Epstein... 'You were the only person I was afraid of during the campaign,' he told Epstein."

• Michael Wolff ([12:16]): "Pam Bondi, who's now the Attorney General... said, 'It's sitting on my desk right now to review.'"

• Michael Wolff ([16:22]): "They have to begin at some point to position themselves actually against Trump, or at least to push JD Vance... and distinguish themselves."

• Michael Wolff ([22:01]): "Virtually everybody... has turned down this story. And most recently a publisher of mine... responded, 'This is too icky.'"

• Michael Wolff ([24:29]): "I am the person here who is probably is certainly the journalist closest to this story. And that's my job, if someone would let me do it, to tell this story."

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This detailed summary encapsulates the key themes and discussions from the episode, providing listeners with an insightful overview of the intricate connections between Jeffrey Epstein, Donald Trump, and the evolving dynamics within the MAGA movement.

Transcript

[David Remnick]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

[Michael Wolff]

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Jeffrey Epstein's death in prison and the sense that the White House is somehow covering something up is causing a backlash from some of Trump's most ardent supporters. It may be a bigger backlash than even the tariff crisis or the bombing of Iran or the astronomical deficits we're in for with the new budget. It is an article of faith in MAGA circles that Epstein's suicide was suspicious and perhaps a murder plotted by Democrats because he knew too much about something. That's the theory of it. In February, Pam Bondi, the Attorney General, said that she had the so called client list on her desk and was reviewing it. But this month, the Department of Justice says there is no such list. The FBI released surveillance footage from a camera outside of Epstein's prison cell when he died. But a few minutes of footage seems to be missing. The President is now yelling at his followers on social media, shut up and move on or else. Epstein, he said, is, quote, somebody that nobody cares about. Michael Wolff is the author of four books about Trump, all bitterly disputed by Donald Trump, we should note, and Wolff says that he interviewed Jeffrey Epstein repeatedly in the years before his arrest and his death in 2019. I sat down to talk with Michael Wolff last week. Michael, as we're speaking, MAGA seems to be blowing up. There seems to be a huge divide among Trump's followers about Epstein and what to do about information about him. And is there a file? Is there not a file? And at the same time, suddenly the President of the United States is saying, I'm sick of hearing about it, let's move on. He's trying to run as quickly as possible away from, from the subject. So fill us in a little bit on the background of where we are now with Jeffrey Epstein, Donald Trump and.

The Maga movement in 2014. Just to set this scene, seeking his rehabilitation. He got in touch with me and we had had some contact before and said, will you write about me? Will you tell me, tell my story?

How did you feel about it? Knowing, knowing the sexual crimes that he was guilty of?

And there, well, even at that point, the sexual crimes he was then deemed guilty of were, I think, I think two counts of prostitution. You know, one was, one was with an underage prostitute, but we were still very much in the context of prostitution. Now, this doesn't forgive anything or ameliorate this in any way. And I, in fact, when he said this to me demurred first because I didn't necessarily think he deserved to be rehabilitated, nor that I'm usually not a guy who rehabilitates someone when I write about them. But more to the point, I just didn't think that he would be honest in any way.

And he wanted you to write about him. This had nothing to do with Donald Trump. Just to be clear, right.

There was a level of constantly, a level of self exposure as though this was an ironic act. He was a sybarite. A sybarite in that old fashioned sense of my identity comes from breaking all norms. I live above norms, I live outside of norms, you know, and I often thought the, you know, the, the, the men of power and influence and money that congregated around him that they kind of admired the fact that, that, that here was a guy who was taking his own power and influence and doing anything that he wanted with it. So such that they might have wished that they could do this.

All these people, we're living vicariously somehow, I think.

Yeah.

So the reason we're talking is that you began to interview Jeffrey Epstein at great length. I think you've said elsewhere that you have 100 hours of taped interviews with him.

Yes.

So just tell me about his intelligence with respect to real estate dealers. He's a salesman, he knows real estate really well. Anything else but that he knows nothing. No history, no strategy. And then I start to say by executive.

We began to talk in 2014 and I started to find this pretty compelling. So I had not yet decided to do anything, although I began to consider doing something. And you know, in this day and age when you just can flick your iPhone, why would you not.

He does nasty things to his best friends, best friends, wives, anyone who first tries to gain the trust, then uses it to do bad things.

And then 2015 rolls around and Donald Trump begins his political career and I begin writing about it. And I shortly found that Jeffrey Epstein was among the most insightful people I knew or had come upon about Donald Trump and his true character.

Well, you say at one point elsewhere that the relationship that Epstein had with Trump was in some ways the closest of either one of their lives. And obviously this is Epstein to talking to you about it.

Right? I, I mean how did they. I think that they were both, both. This began in the 1980s. They were both very much 80s guys very much interested in a certain kind in women. I mean they were interested in women in money and they were interested in, in, in the same kind of women. Models. That was much of the relationship hunting women. They shared a girlfriend at one point for almost a year, back and forth.

According to what Epstein told you, you.

Say there was a lot of. They were involved in each other's business affairs. I think that they were each other's closest friend, probably the closest friend each of them has ever had.

You're intuiting that, or Epstein said this to you directly?

That was in part Epstein's characterization of this and in the level of details that I have, it seems credible to me, Michael, is.

My understanding, please correct me if I'm wrong, is that you've had a hard time publishing anything about Epstein because, as you say, that publishers are very reluctant to publish you on this in particular. You've had lots of bestsellers elsewhere.

Yeah, no, I think that there's a general.

[David Remnick]

The.

[Michael Wolff]

Let's call it, you know, for lack of better. The mainstream media has been highly resistant to this story.

I think you wrote a piece about Epstein that New York Magazine was going to publish and then did not.

No, I mean, we discussed doing a piece, and then I decided I didn't want to do it because I was afraid, actually.

Why?

The intensity of issues that seemed to converge on anyone who was talking about Epstein, anyone who might have known Epstein was just something I thought, life is too short.

So you also have talked many, many times in your journalistic career with Steve Bannon. He. He really is a big presence in some of your Trump books. He also had a relationship with Epstein.

So Steve met Jeffrey Epstein in 2017. Steve was out of the White House then, and they bonded immediately. They bonded over their relationship with Trump. And in a sense, they still remain, to me, the guys, the two guys who are most insightful about Trump. And they both, at that point hated Trump.

That's interesting. Two people had the most insight in Trump. Both hate him.

Yes, Well, I think that's true about most people who have any insight at all into Trump. It's actually true about most people who have spent any amount of time with Trump.

Why did Epstein hate Trump?

Their falling out in 2004 was over a real estate deal. Now, Palm Beach. I mean, yes, I've often thought that the one thing that can really inspire hatred among a certain kind of guy is a real estate betrayal.

But before they fell out, they were close. And Steve Bannon said to you, as I understand it, at one point, the one thing he really feared, the one thing that Steve Bannon really feared in the 2016 race was that somehow Jeffrey Epstein's name.

Yeah, he didn't come up to me. He said this to Epstein upon meeting him. And I know this because I was standing there. The first word Steve Bannon said to Jeffrey Epstein was, you were the only person I was afraid of during the campaign. And Epstein.

Because what would happen?

As well you should have been.

Right. As well you should have been, because what would have happened?

Well, I think, you know, Bannon appreciated that Epstein held many, many Trump secrets, and especially secrets about women. And remember, the women issue certainly at one point was the one thing that seemed on the verge of dooming the Trump campaign.

So we've seen photographs of Jeffrey Epstein with Donald Trump, more than one. What would be so damning about that? They're young men, they're out and about. You may not like them, but there's no evidence. I've heard that Trump did something illegal in conjunction with Epstein.

Yeah, I don't, And I don't know. I mean, I don't know that Donald Trump was with any of the girls that. That Jeffrey Epstein ultimately went to jail for. I do know and have seen, you know, a set of photographs. Jeffrey Epstein has about a dozen. Had about a dozen photographs, Polaroids, I believe they were with Donald Trump with. With a set of girls around Epstein's pool in Palm Beach.

Do you have these pictures?

No, I don't. I don't. And those were. Those were they. They were. They were brought out of. Out of Epstein's safe.

And should we care, Michael? Should we care about. Why should we care?

There is a likelihood that those photographs were in the safe that the FBI raided and took possession of. That would be part of the Epstein file.

That brings us to the present tense. Pam Bondi, who's now the Attorney General, of course, as well as the people that are now the leadership of the FBI, they all kept saying for the entire length of the campaign that the government had to release the Epstein files. And Bondi, not so long ago, was asked about this thing called the client list that was supposedly in the files, and she said, it's sitting on my desk to review. The DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients. Will that really happen?

It's sitting on my desk right now to review. That's been a directive by President Trump. I'm reviewing that. I'm reviewing JFK files, MLK files.

Then suddenly we're told that there is no such list. Michael, what do you make of all that?

I think I draw the obvious inference. Pam Bondi works for Donald Trump. She is his. At least as he conceives of Their relationship is his lawyer. So my inference would be that that Pam Bondi's client gave her directions. And I think he has wanted to sweep the Epstein relationship under the rug for some time, and he has managed to avoid this as an issue for him. You know, this is the last thing, the last issue that he wants to be front and center.

And do you think Trump will keep the leadership of the FBI in Pam Bondi?

I would not say that. Her life expectancy is long, yeah.

I'm talking with journalist Michael Wolff, the author of four books about Donald Trump's political career, and we'll continue our conversation in a moment. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour.

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[David Remnick]

How to Be a Better Human from.

[Michael Wolff]

TED is a podcast for when self help feels too daunting or just not for you.

I'm Chris Duffy, the host of how to Be a Better Human.

And trust me, I do not have it all figured out, but join me.

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This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick, and I'm speaking with the journalist Michael Wolff about the Jeffrey Epstein scandal and the Trump administration. Wolff is the author of four books about Fire and Fury, Siege, Landslide, and All or Nothing. His books have contained some explosive revelations about Trump, often denied by the Trump people. And while aspects of his reporting have been challenged and criticized a great deal, in fact, he's had some remarkable access to the White House. Wolf also says that he has 100 hours of taped interviews with Jeffrey Epstein from the years before his second arrest. Epstein died in a New York jail cell and apparent suicide in August of 2019. And what about MAGA as a movement? This was no small part of the thinking in the MAGA movement that somehow a conspiracy theory about Jeffrey Epstein and his death was all part of the systems, the deep state's ability to keep secrets and do dark and dastardly things. How do you think this is gonna play out in maga? And does Donald Trump care very much?

Yeah, well, I think that they got caught on this. This is being hoisted on your own petard. The central point from which this grew is the Clinton relationship with Epstein. And Clinton and Epstein had quite a strong relationship, quite a bond for about two years. So, yes, that is there, but they seem to have overlooked the Trump relationship, which was deeper and longer. Now, I think that there's something else. And this occurred to me, literally. I woke up this morning and I thought, oh, that this may be the beginning of Donald Trump's lame duck years. So we have these MAGA people who are beginning naturally to position themselves as the leaders of this movement when Donald Trump exits the stage. They have to begin at some point to position themselves actually against Trump, or at least to push JD Vance, who would be in the frontrunner position, toward Donald Trump and distinguishing themselves. And this includes Steve Bannon, obviously, who has wanted nothing more than to be the president himself. TUCKER CARLSON I mean, these are, these are, I think they are beginning to think of what are the issues that they have to, that they can make.

Their own, and they're in some cases prepared to betray the founder of maga.

Well, I think that it's confusing to them at this point. They didn't think that would happen, but now it has happened. What do they do? And no one knows. They suddenly can't say, oh, forget about Jeffrey Epstein. And Trump can't say, bring on the Jeffrey Epstein stuff, because he will be exposed in this, or he might be.

But so this brings me to the crux of the thing, Michael. You've written any number of bestsellers. You've won the National Magazine Award multiple times at the same time. Over time, you've gotten a lot of criticism from everybody. Steven Ratner, Sean Hannity, Tony Blair, Rupert Murdoch. They've accused you, various critics of inaccuracy or worse. You know, these critiques. Eric Wemple of the Washington Post, among others, said you should apologize for going on Bill Maher's show and saying you were absolutely sure that Nikki Haley, as UN Ambassador, was having an affair with Trump. So you've, you've heard these things.

I didn't say that. But that's okay. You did everything. DAVID I did not say that. In fact, there is nothing. I didn't mention Nikki Haley. The implication might have been that. But that was anyway, okay.

And you said, even when you were asked about these critiques, and I work in a world in which everything is a lie and everything is a performance, if it rings true, it's true. So there's been this critique of you that you're perfectly aware of. It seems to me you're sitting on 100 hours, you say, of tapes of what's potentially journalistic dynamite. What do you find that's the most dispositive and most damning About Donald Trump vis a vis Epstein.

Well, I find Epstein's descriptions of. Of Donald Trump to be pretty eye opening. At any rate, from how he picked up women to.

I think he called him a horrible human being at one point.

He did. And there was one point at which Epstein said the problem with Donald Trump is he has no scruples. I always thought that was.

But I hasten to add, this is Jeffrey Epstein.

No, no. But I hasten to add, if Jeffrey Epstein thinks a person has no scruples, they must really have no scruples.

Or conversely, that Jeffrey Epstein has no right to pronounce on anybody's character.

Well, you know, I think that that's part of the resistance to this story. Why? The media, the mainstream media. The New Yorker. The New Yorker has had no stories about Jeffrey Epstein at great length. And that is. And I think one of the issues is the mainstream media having completely demonized Jeffrey Epstein, he cannot then be a witness against the President of the United States. So. So I think that there's been this incredible awkwardness about this story. But this is the thing. There is a context, there is a story to be told here. But let me say that virtually everybody, everybody, every network, every major news outlet, every streaming service, at least they significant number of book publishers have turned down this story. And most recently a publisher of mine who generally would be interested in anything that I wanted to write.

Doubleday. Yeah.

And the response was, this is too icky. So now I think that that may now change.

Finally, Michael, is it your intention now to go through these tapes where immediately. And I think a lot of people would invite you to do so. In particular, where it has to do with the politics of. Now, let's forget Jeffrey Epstein's life story and biography and the rest, but just in terms of the relationship between the two of them and what it does or does not reflect on the President of the United States at the moment seems like something of an imperative to a journalist.

I have done this at some length before and this managed to have no impact whatsoever. Will it have an impact now? While I am trying to tell exactly that story?

Now, Michael, how would you characterize this relationship? What was the texture of that relationship? What was the uniqueness of it?

Well, I think the texture of the relationship was that these were two incredibly amoral, you might call them loathe guys who were out for money and for a good time, and that was the nature of their bond. But I think the complication is having created this Epstein conspiracy or this Epstein demonization, or setting Epstein which certainly the MAGA people do, pretty much everybody does. As the worst person who has ever lived. And then to have a situation in which it becomes clear that the worst person who's ever, ever lived, his best friend is the president of the United States, Donald Trump, I think that becomes a political complication for everyone involved.

I can't quite tell how you feel about Jeffrey Epstein. On the one hand, you make it very plain that you're hardly approving of his life and his behavior. But when some people say he's the.

Worst person, David, let me tell you, I'm a journalist.

Yeah. You're not his lawyer.

And I am the person here who is probably is certainly the journalist closest to this story. And that's my job, if someone would let me do it, to tell this story.

Michael Wolff, thank you. Michael Wolf's most recent book is all or How Trump Recaptured All America. We spoke last week. I'm David Remnick. Thanks for joining us this week. See you next time.

[David Remnick]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell and Jared Paul. This episode was produced by Max Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul and Ursula Sommer, with guidance from Emily Bottin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.

[Michael Wolff]

The big question of this Trump administration over and over again has been, can they really do that? Can they reinterpret the 14th amendment? Can they ignore district court rulings? Dismantle the Education Department? Revoke Rosie o' Donnell's citizenship? All of us have questions about the administration and its legal challenges and how the courts are ruling on them. So to answer your questions, the New Yorker's legal experts will join us here on the program. Constitutional scholar Jeannie Suk Gerson and columnist Ruth Marcus. Please send us your questions about Trump and the courts to new yorkerradionyc.org Ruth Marcus and Jeannie Sook Gerson will join me and we'll address as many of your questions as we possibly can. Again, that's New Yorker radio. One word, New Yorker Radio. And tell us where you're writing from, too. I look forward to hearing from you.

[David Remnick]

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