The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: “New Yorker Reporters on Impeachment”

Date: October 4, 2019
Host: David Remnick
Featured Guests: Susan Glasser, Joshua Yaffa, Jane Mayer, Jelani Cobb, Jill Lepore

Episode Overview

This episode explores the unfolding impeachment inquiry into President Donald Trump’s actions regarding Ukraine, gathering insights from top New Yorker reporters and contributors. David Remnick interviews Susan Glasser (Washington reporter), Joshua Yaffa (from Kiev), Jane Mayer (investigative journalist), Jelani Cobb (historian and writer), and Jill Lepore (historian and author), delving into the political, historical, and cultural ramifications of this unprecedented chapter in American politics.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Atmosphere in Washington (Susan Glasser)

• Shock and Uncertainty:
  Susan describes D.C. as seized by “Shocktober,” a time of unraveling where no one seems certain how events will unfold.
  • "Washington has these weeks, days when the wheels feel like they're coming off, and that's usually in the early days of a scandal or investigation, when tons of information starts to break free." (01:14)
• No Clear Conventional Wisdom:
  Unlike past scandals, both Democrats and Republicans are internally divided over possible political outcomes.
  • "You will run into people who will allow that they could see it both ways, that the beginning of impeachment could be the day that Donald Trump won re-election." (01:41)
• Republican Defense Strategies:
  Republican responses focus more on distraction—attacking the whistleblower and shifting attention to unrelated issues—rather than defending Trump’s actions directly.
  • "Most of the Republicans right now, they aren't even defending Trump on the facts... basically to obfuscate and to throw up kind of chaff." (02:25)

2. The Ukraine Narrative & International Perspective (Joshua Yaffa)

• From Russia to Ukraine Scandals:
  The Ukraine scandal is an outgrowth of the unresolved allegations from the 2016 Russia interference, with Trump and his allies hunting for counter-narratives.
  • "It was the search for contradictory or exculpatory or diversionary stories that led them... to look to Ukraine." (05:41)
• Ukrainian Officials' Disbelief and Disappointment:
  Ukrainian leaders feel “confusion and disappointment,” as U.S. pressure—once aimed at reform and rule of law—now asks for political leverage in U.S. domestic affairs.
  • "This sad irony wasn't lost on anyone: now it was an American president who apparently was using his office to put pressure on his Ukrainian counterpart to use that country's judicial system for political ends." (06:47)

3. Washington Scandal Comparisons & Internal Dynamics (Jane Mayer)

• How Trump Is Different:
  Mayer notes a key difference from past scandals is Trump’s chaotic, unfiltered “rain of crazy Twitters.”
  • "Usually when you have a scandal, you've got kind of an organized pushback... In this case, you've just got a sort of a rain of crazy Twitters coming from the president." (08:35)
• Weaponization of Treason Accusations:
  The invocation of “treason,” particularly by a sitting president, is dangerous and escalates tensions.
  • "The word treason being used by a president is... really remarkably extreme." (09:08)
• The Pence Question:
  Mayer distinguishes between Trump and Pence, saying Pence is an ardent ideologue tied closely to evangelical and big-donor circles—a change many Republicans might actually welcome.
  • "Pence is an ideologue. He's somebody who cares about policy, and he is a devout evangelical Christian... He's also someone who's been in bed for most of his career with the big money in the Republican Party." (10:34)
• Republicans and the Base:
  Senate Republicans may dislike Trump personally, but fear losing his base keeps them loyal—unless the base shifts.
  • "A lot of Republicans in the Senate dislike Trump personally. What's holding them there is that he's got a hold on the base of the party whose votes they need." (11:44)
• Media Landscape Shift:
  Fox News and social media grant Trump tools Nixon never had to maintain base support through “alternative communications systems.”
  • "He has an alternative communications system, and Fox is a big part of that." (12:34)

4. Precedent and Rhetoric of Violence (Jelani Cobb)

• Historical Uniqueness:
  Cobb struggles to find a true precedent for Trump’s use of rhetoric around “treason” and “civil war,” noting the ominous echoes do not fully map onto past U.S. crises.
  • "I can't really find anything that compares... The comparisons to the Civil War... it takes us not to 1860, but to 1776." (13:50)
• Concerns Over Rhetoric and Violence:
  Trump’s language can incite violence, as evidenced by past events, and his unpredictability compounds national anxiety.
  • "We've seen in his campaign rallies that he has the possibility of riling people up into committing acts of violence." (15:00)
  • Cobb’s “greatest fear” is Trump’s impulse-driven nature leading to more destabilizing responses.
    • "He seems to be really driven by any instance in which he perceives himself as being embarrassed... What an impeachment might unleash in that kind of psyche, I have no idea, and I don't think any of us do." (16:16)

5. The Historical Context of Impeachment (Jill Lepore)

• Severity and Constitutionality:
  Trump’s alleged offenses are “very bad,” but impeachment is reserved for constitutional breaches, not just poor leadership.
  • "You can't be impeached for being a creep or a bad president. And that's, I think, one of the things that's been tricky." (17:43)
• Impeachment as Duty:
  Regardless of likely Senate acquittal, Lepore stresses the House has a “constitutional duty” to impeach for grave offenses.
  • "In terms of the House, the articles of impeachment are not really a choice, but I think a duty that members of Congress have, a constitutional duty." (18:06)
• Impeachment as Deterrent:
  Its power is largely as a check on abuse, but Trump’s character is undeterred, possibly relishing the process.
  • "It's the gun on the mantle that not only never goes off, but people rarely even notice that it's there... Trump is an ungoverned... Just as a human being, he has. He doesn't govern himself." (19:03)
• Possible Outcomes:
  Even if Trump is not removed, history will judge Senators’ responses; a failed conviction does not invalidate the process.
  • "It was still the obligation of the House to send those articles of impeachment to the Senate. And it will be the burden of history that lands on the shoulders of those senators." (21:05/21:28)
• Civic Clarity in Crisis:
  The impeachment process could force the nation to reckon, civically, with the limits and checks on presidential power.
  • "For those of us who teach civics... it's a really important moment to think about what are the checks against the power of the executive." (20:01)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Propaganda's Effect:
  "Propaganda works, telling a lie over and over and over again. At least enough people start to believe it."
  — Susan Glasser (03:41)

• Republicans' Internal Dilemma:
  "You can get Democrats who tell you that and yet nonetheless feel they need to proceed. You can have Republicans say the opposite... we're really terrified that this is gonna be awful for us."
  — Susan Glasser (01:41)

• Pence as Koch Candidate:
  "Steve Bannon at one point... said to me he thought that a presidency in Pence hands, the White House would be controlled by the Kochs."
  — Jane Mayer (10:34)

• On Impeachment’s Deterrent Power:
  "Impeachment is chiefly a deterrent. Right. It's the gun on the mantle that not only never goes off, but people rarely even notice that it's there..."
  — Jill Lepore (19:03)

• Refusing Cynicism:
  "It was still the principled thing to do. It was still the obligation of the House... And it will be the burden of history that lands on the shoulders of those senators. I mean, this is the presidential equivalent of shooting somebody on Fifth Avenue."
  — Jill Lepore (21:05/21:28)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Washington Uncertainty – Susan Glasser: 01:02–04:54
• The View from Ukraine – Joshua Yaffa: 05:08–07:49
• Washington Scandal & GOP Base – Jane Mayer: 08:05–13:07
• Rhetoric, Precedent & Violence – Jelani Cobb: 13:25–17:00
• Impeachment in Historical Context – Jill Lepore: 17:12–21:28

Concluding Thoughts

This episode paints a portrait of an impeachment crisis marked by deep uncertainty, unprecedented presidential conduct, and a fractured political landscape. The expert voices agree on the gravity of the allegations but diverge on predictions and potential outcomes, underlining both the limitations and enduring responsibilities of American constitutional processes.

For further reporting and analysis, visit newyorker.com.