Peter Dinklage on Cyrano, and Life After “Thrones”

Summary

Podcast Summary
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Episode: Peter Dinklage on Cyrano, and Life After “Thrones”
Date: December 20, 2019
Host: David Remnick
Guest: Peter Dinklage
Interviewer: Michael Shulman

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Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between Peter Dinklage and New Yorker staff writer Michael Shulman, focusing on Dinklage's post-Game of Thrones career, his starring role in a new adaptation of Cyrano (directed by his wife, Erica Schmidt), reflections on fame, art, and representation, and memories from his years both off-Broadway and on television’s biggest series.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Background & Transition from Game of Thrones

• Peter Dinklage is recognized for a decade-long portrayal of Tyrion Lannister on HBO’s Game of Thrones, earning widespread acclaim and four Emmys.
• With Game of Thrones concluded, Dinklage expresses excitement and exhaustion about returning to his theater roots:

  “I've done 12 shows in the past eight days. I'm fried.” (06:05)

Reimagining Cyrano

• Dinklage stars in a new adaptation of Cyrano, but does not use the iconic fake nose; instead, the production emphasizes feelings of unworthiness and self-doubt as a universal human experience.
• On the core of Cyrano:

  “We wanted to really strip it all down and get to the core of what it really is about, which is... everybody's capacity to not feel worthy of love.” (06:30)

• Dinklage discusses how the show addresses Cyrano's "difference," allowing the audience to interpret references to appearance in their own way:

  “Let them follow you down the rabbit hole. I don’t think it has anything to do with my height either... I was just cast because they wanted me for it, and I wanted to try something I’ve never done before.” (08:11)

Collaboration with The National

• Erica Schmidt, Dinklage’s wife and the play's director, reached out to the band The National to compose music:

  “Matt’s lyrics are so poetic, much like Cyrano’s words, that it was such a natural fit.” (09:31)

Musical Past: The Band Wizzy

• Dinklage shares stories about his ‘90s band Wizzy:

  “We were punks, but we didn’t play punk rock... we just drank too much and played.” (10:04)

• Asked about the band’s name and song titles:

  “I think our drummer, Jim, did... One was called ‘Dick of the Party,’ about being a loser drunk at a party.” (10:40 & 11:12)

Portraying Hervé Villechaize

• Dinklage discusses My Dinner with Hervé, his long-gestating HBO project about the late actor:

  “It was just the first time I’ve ever played somebody who actually existed, which was a really humbling... experience.” (12:05)

• On the unique and controversial legacy of Villechaize as the most famous actor with dwarfism before Dinklage:

  “He never really let his size define him... he was charming.” (13:29)

• Reflects on growing up seeing Villechaize in popular culture and the broader impact of representation:

  “When you’re eight years old, social justice is not really entering into your biosphere... but then adolescence sort of changes all that. You become hyper aware of the world around you...” (14:12)

• On the limits of “representation”:

  “I’m not an actor to change the world in terms of how somebody my size is presented. I’m really not. Because that would be putting me before the work.” (15:41)

On the Game of Thrones Finale

• Shulman broaches the divisive reaction to the show’s ending:

  “Did you follow the fan response?” (16:44)

• Dinklage’s perspective:

  “You’re never going to make anybody happy with anything we do. Everybody’s going to always have an opinion... but that means they really loved it. It’s like breaking up with somebody. They get upset, and... they didn’t want it to end.” (16:46)

• Comments on Daenerys’ dark turn and fan tattoos:

  “You just gotta maybe wait till the series finale before you get that tattoo or name your golden retriever Daenerys.” (17:41)

• On surviving to the end of the series:

  “No, none of us did. We were all nervous when we got the scripts.” (18:18)

Next Steps & Future Projects

• Dinklage reflects on producing and choosing projects more selectively:

  “I’m producing now, and that inspires me... Acting, perhaps much more selectively than I’ve been doing, which I think is just a natural progression of getting older.” (18:45)

Musical Aspirations

• Dinklage expresses a desire to record a Cyrano cast album with The National:

  “I really want to make a cast album of Cyrano. That’s a goal of mine. Never been on a cast album, so hopefully The National will consider that.” (19:39)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the essence of Cyrano:

  “Everybody's capacity to not feel worthy of love.” — Peter Dinklage (06:30)

• On legacy and representation:

  “He never really let his size define him... he was charming.” — Peter Dinklage on Herve Villechaize (13:29)

• On fan response to Game of Thrones ending:

  “It’s like breaking up with somebody. They get upset, and... they didn’t want it to end.” — Peter Dinklage (16:46)

• On new creative freedom:

  “I’m producing now, and that inspires me... Acting, perhaps much more selectively than I’ve been doing, which I think is just a natural progression of getting older.” — Peter Dinklage (18:45)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Peter Dinklage reflects on theatrical roots: 05:49–06:10
• Adapting Cyrano without the iconic nose: 06:30–08:43
• Collaboration with The National: 09:31–09:53
• On punk band past and Wizzy: 09:59–11:21
• Portraying Herve Villechaize and thoughts on representation: 11:51–15:41
• Discussing the Game of Thrones finale and fan reactions: 16:22–18:18
• Current projects and producing: 18:45–19:33
• Desire for a Cyrano cast album: 19:39–19:53

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Transcript

[David Remnick]

From One World Trade center in Manhattan, this is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Because this is the season, we're going to start with a little story. A Christmas story. And here's Kathleen Turner in children's holiday letters to Satan.

[Kathleen Turner]

Dear Satan, what I really want this year more than anything is a Barbie Dream House. It's pretty in pink and I will keep it in my room near my bed. Merry Christmas. Alison, age 6.

[Satan (Narrator/Character)]

Allison Huh. I see what you've done here. You intended for your letter to go to Santa, but due to your poor grasp of spelling, it has instead come to me. It really should go without saying, but I will not be getting you this so called dream house because. Well, because I do not want to. But I will suggest this. Buy it yourself. Simply take $2 from your mom's wallet every day and soon enough you'll have your useless and sill miniature house. Regards, Satan.

[Kathleen Turner]

Dear Satan, I am Daniel and I love you. I want an Xbox for Christmas. Daniel, age 9.

[Satan (Narrator/Character)]

Dear Daniel, am I getting your name right? You only mentioned it twice in your 10 word letter. I've wasted five minutes of my life googling this Xbox and I suppose I'm left with one question. Why this game? Grand Theft Auto indeed. Seems quite fun. But why waste your day sitting in front of the TV when there are so many actual cars to be stolen? Damn it Daniel. Get out there and live your friend Satan.

[Kathleen Turner]

Dear Satan, I just want my mom and dad to get back together. Stephanie, age 11.

[Satan (Narrator/Character)]

Stephanie, you're over 10. Stop telling people your age. It's childish. As for your mommy and daddy, maybe it's my own shit, but it feels as if you're blaming me for their separation. While I did put Vicki from accounting in front of your father to tempt him, I didn't make up your father's unconvincing lie about working late. But I feel bad. I'm going to send you something called an Xbox. Best Satan.

[Kathleen Turner]

Dear Satan, I want a computer so I could do better in school and get a good job and make lots and lots of money from David.

[Satan (Narrator/Character)]

Dear David, Being the embodiment of pure pure evil, I will not get you this computer. I'm not Mark Zuckerberg. Or am I kidding? I'm not. But if you really want a job that allows you to make a great deal of money fast, you can go ahead and send me your resume. I have a number of very close friends at Goldman Sachs. Regards, Satan.

[Kathleen Turner]

Dear saints, All I want for Christmas is a world of peace. Brian H4.

[Satan (Narrator/Character)]

Dear Brian, no.

[David Remnick]

Children's Holiday Letters to Satan by Matt Passett from the New Yorker's Daily Shouts and performed for us by the inimitable Kathleen Turner, along with the highly talented children of the New Yorker Radio Hour. For a long time, the actor Peter Dinklage considered himself a man of the theater, a downtown, Off Broadway kind of guy. He had a few notable roles in small films, but then came HBO's adaptation of Game of Thrones, and he was cast in the role of Tyrion Lannister. One reviewer described Tyrion as a cynic, a drinker, an outcast, and conspicuously the novel's most intelligent presence.

[Peter Dinklage]

Yes, Father, I'm guilty.

[Satan (Narrator/Character)]

Guilty?

[Peter Dinklage]

Is that what you want to hear?

[Satan (Narrator/Character)]

You admit you poisoned the king?

[Peter Dinklage]

No, of that I'm innocent. I'm guilty of a far more monstrous crime. I'm guilty of being a dwarf.

[Satan (Narrator/Character)]

You are not on trial for being a dwarf.

[Peter Dinklage]

Oh, yes, I am. I've been on trial for that my entire life.

[David Remnick]

Dinklage, who is four and a half feet tall, gave Tyrion a towering presence, and he played the part for 10 years and won four Emmys for his performance. But Game of Thrones ended earlier this year, and Dinklage has gone back to his roots in the theater.

[Peter Dinklage]

I've done 12 shows in the past eight days. I'm fried. Okay, gotcha.

[David Remnick]

Dinklage is the lead in a new adaptation of Cyrano, the classic play about a romantic who tries to win the woman he loves, despite his extraordinarily large and unattractive nose. Dinklage came in recently to talk with the staff writer Michael Shulman, and they spoke about how he connects with the character of Cyrano.

[Peter Dinklage]

I never felt a connection with the nose of it all. As a person who looks like me. Whenever I would watch a version of Cyrano, I would just think about, that's an actor and a fake nose. And we wanted to really strip it all down and get to the core of what it really is about, which is people's. Everybody's. Capacity to not feel worthy of love. Whether you have a giant nose or.

[Kathleen Turner]

Not, he is very, very beautiful.

[Peter Dinklage]

He's beautiful.

[Kathleen Turner]

Yes. He is the most beautiful man I've ever seen.

[Peter Dinklage]

I see. Have you spoken? Never. How do you know he loves you? I know. How can you love a man if you've never heard his voice?

[Kathleen Turner]

I don't know, but I know that I do.

[Peter Dinklage]

What if he's an idiot? Then I will die.

[Michael Shulman]

It's really interesting how the show handles the nose part of Cyrano's story, because, as you said, you don't wear a prosthetic nose, but other characters refer to his nose as, like the.

[Peter Dinklage]

You refer to it twice, right? At the top, right.

[Michael Shulman]

Yeah. But in the audience, I guess we're left to sort of assume that they're talking in a maybe sideways way about your height. Or were you a part of the decision about that? I mean, how did you all discuss how you wanted to handle the nose aspect of it and how it would be presented?

[Satan (Narrator/Character)]

Right.

[Peter Dinklage]

I mean, it does present sort of a puzzle, because I'm not wearing a nose and I am the height I am. So people are going. You could feel it. They're a bit confused. But that's okay, I think. Let them follow you down the rabbit hole. But again, I don't think it has anything to do with my height either. I think Scott Stanglin, who is my understudy, he's 6ft tall or something, and he can play the part probably as good or as better than I can.

[Michael Shulman]

Has he gone on?

[Peter Dinklage]

No, not yet.

[Michael Shulman]

So we'll never know.

[Peter Dinklage]

So it sort of has nothing to do with any of that, really. I was just cast because they wanted me for it, and I wanted to try something I've never done before. Are you. Are you in love? Why me?

[Michael Shulman]

Yes.

[Peter Dinklage]

Yes, I dare. I dare. With whom? Only the most intelligent, beautiful creature. With whom. With such a description, you have to ask, whom do you love? Have you ever wanted something so badly you cannot breathe? Have you ever loved someone? The adapter and director, Erica Schmidt, who.

[Michael Shulman]

I should say is your wife.

[Peter Dinklage]

Years ago. Yes, years ago, got in touch with the band the national, because their music is so romantic and filled with yearning and sometimes heartbreaking. And Matt's lyrics are so poetic, much like Cyrano's words, that it was such a natural fit. And they responded immediately and they wrote these beautiful songs.

[Michael Shulman]

Many people probably have not seen you sing before, but you were in a punk band in the 90s?

[Peter Dinklage]

Yeah.

[Michael Shulman]

Please tell me about your punk band.

[Peter Dinklage]

We were punks, but we didn't play punk rock. A couple friends from Columbia and a couple friends from where I went to school in Bennington, Vermont, we got together and we just drank too much and played. Played the old CBGBs, and we had a lot of fun. We had a following, but our following was kind of like progressive rock. It was all guys. What's the point of being in a rock band if there's no Ladies, if you don't have any groupies. But I never intended to be in a band. It was just. It was just fun for me.

[Michael Shulman]

The group was called Wizzy.

[Peter Dinklage]

Wizzy? Yeah.

[Michael Shulman]

Who came up with a name?

[Peter Dinklage]

I think our drummer Jim did. But I felt I was being like a dilettante. I felt like they were all real musicians and they still are, and I was just slumming it, being, you know, I don't know, just having fun and I don't think that's fair.

[Michael Shulman]

What was, what were some of your songs called?

[Peter Dinklage]

I don't think it's. I think this New Yorker Radio Hour is too clean for some of the song titles.

[Michael Shulman]

No, it's not.

[Peter Dinklage]

Well, we had that makes me only.

[Michael Shulman]

Want to know the song titles more.

[Peter Dinklage]

Yeah, well, one was called Dick of the Party, about being a loser drunk at a party. So I'll leave it there.

[Michael Shulman]

So, speaking of your many talents, you now have your own production company. And one of the things that you have done is this HBO film, My Dinner with Hervey. And you play the French born dwarf actor Herve Vilachais, who is known for playing Knick knack in the James Bond film the man with the Golden Gun, and even more so for saying Deplane duplaine on the 70s TV show Fantasy Island. So this project was 14 years in the making, is that right?

[Peter Dinklage]

Yeah.

[Michael Shulman]

And so the writer, director of the film, Sasha Gervasi, had met Herve years earlier as a journalist. And they had this crazy night out on the town in Los Angeles. And then what happened?

[Peter Dinklage]

Well, he, Hervey killed himself a couple days after Sasha said goodbye to him. So Sasha realized it was sort of a suicide note, which is in true Herve style. The man did nothing quietly. He was something else. And I got to know people in his life. He's so deeply loved and he burned so brightly. So, you know, and it was just the first time I've ever played somebody who actually existed, which was a real, really humbling. But also.

[Michael Shulman]

Well, not only did he exist, but he was. I'm sure it's a complicated thing. He was the, you know, the actor with dwarfism who was most famous before you. I mean.

[Peter Dinklage]

Well, he didn't. He didn't. I mean, he wasn't really an actor, to be fair. Sorry, Hervey, I love you. He was an incredible painter.

[Michael Shulman]

Right.

[Peter Dinklage]

But he just enjoyed the lifestyle of it all. We're sort of opposite in that way. I enjoy the lifestyle, but I don't go for the. I don't know, I keep a lower, try to Keep a lower profile, but I enjoy the work itself. Hervey really liked. He loved being the rock star that he was. So he was guilty of that, but no fault to him because he was having a really good time and he was sort of unapologetic about it.

[Michael Shulman]

Right.

[Peter Dinklage]

But he never really let his size define him. He wooed and he won many, many women, which I feel like because of his size was treated in the press, like, wow, you know, it's just like, no, that wouldn't happen with anybody else who was regular size. It just was like a novelty that he was with women. Well, yeah, he was deal with it because he was charming.

[Michael Shulman]

So he was on TV when you were growing up in the 70s. What were your feelings about him? And, you know, representation in popular culture of dwarfism in general.

[Peter Dinklage]

When you're eight years old, social justice is not really entering into your biosphere there. I remember being a little bit aware that in Fantasy island he was the sidekick and, you know, but nothing. Nothing that really bothered me. But then adolescence sort of changes all that. Your perspective on if you live in a unique shape, you become hyper aware of the world around you and how it reacts to you and how you engage with it. I'm. Myself. I'm not always the most politically correct person in terms of my dwarfism. I don't care, really. I think that can be damaging as well. And put up walls. Meaning, like, for example, if I see a kid and he's pointing at me and the parent has them like, look the other way, what is that gonna. What's that kid gonna grow up into? Somebody that can't make eye contact with somebody who's four and a half feet tall. That's. That's sad to me. I understand it in the moment. Cause they don't want to embarrass me. You know, what are we gonna have, like an educational seminar? Walking down the street with a child? You know, there's no time for that add up to. In our DNA in terms of how we see people. Unique, physically unique. And that can be destructive. No, I'm not an actor to change the world in terms of how somebody my size is presented. I'm really not. Cause that would be putting me before the work. And I just am attracted to roles that don't. It's just bad writing to make that the dominant character trait. It's not my dominant character trait. It's part of, you know, it has to be part of a complex portrait that informs other pieces of your personality. But I just know when you read a Script that it's just. They just want you because you're. It's not gonna happen if they want you just to be. Because the suit fits or something, you know?

[Michael Shulman]

So I am gonna have rocks thrown at me if I don't ask you about the finale of Game of Thrones. So I'm gonna do it right now.

[Peter Dinklage]

Who throws these rocks? The New Yorker is such a peaceful magazine. The cartoonists?

[Michael Shulman]

Yeah, the cartoonists.

[Peter Dinklage]

They throw pictures of rocks.

[Michael Shulman]

Did you follow the fan response?

[Peter Dinklage]

No. I mean, you're never gonna make anybody happy with anything we do. Everybody's going to always have an opinion, and that means an ownership, but that means they really loved it. It's like breaking up with somebody. They get upset, and I can't speak for everybody, but my feeling is they didn't want it to end. So a lot of people got angry. This happens. Monsters are created, and you don't see it coming. We vote them into office. You know, it happens. So for everybody to get upset because they loved a character so much and they had so much faith in that person, there were signposts all along the way for that character.

[Michael Shulman]

You're speaking, of course, of spoiler alert. Daenerys.

[Peter Dinklage]

Yeah.

[Michael Shulman]

Targaryen, who took a bit of a fascist turn.

[Peter Dinklage]

Yeah. But that's because, you know, what was happening all along, it added up to something. And, you know, there are people who have named their children Khaleesi and gotten tattoos. You know, we're all tattoos on people. And you just gotta maybe wait till the season finale, the series finale, before you get that tattoo or name your golden retriever Daenerys. You know, I mean, I can't help you. I'm sorry. I'm very sorry.

[Michael Shulman]

Did you expect that Tyrion would survive through to the end?

[Peter Dinklage]

No, none of us did. None of us did. We were all nervous when we got the scripts.

[Satan (Narrator/Character)]

Yeah.

[Michael Shulman]

Now that the show is done, you have a certain amount of cultural capital that you can really spend on doing things that you want. What do you want to do with it? You have a production company where you can make whatever you're interested in. You probably have any wide choice of roles.

[Peter Dinklage]

Actors, they come in in the ninth inning after a lot of creativity has been sparked. And I'm trying to rewind, and I'm producing now, and that inspires me, that sort of being on something from the ground floor, creating something with a writer or director. And that's what I'm doing now, acting, perhaps much more selectively than I've been doing, which I think that's just a natural progression of getting older. You know, getting up at 5am in some strange location when you can be home in bed. You really have to be a good project to get you there.

[Michael Shulman]

Since you get to rock out so much in secret. Is there any chance of getting Wizzy back together?

[Peter Dinklage]

No, but I really want to make a cast album of Cyrano. That's a goal of mine. Never been on a cast album, so hopefully the band the national will consider that.

[Michael Shulman]

It's a real pleasure to talk to you. Thanks for coming in.

[David Remnick]

The actor Peter Dinklage speaking with Michael Shulman, a staff writer at the magazine. You can read more from their [e-mail] that's it for today. Thanks for joining us. And remember, on Christmas Day the movie Little Women opens. And if you missed my interview with Greta Gerwig, who wrote and directed the film, you can find it on the podcast of the New Yorker Radio Hour. Have a terrific holiday and if you're traveling, be safe. Please join us next time for the New Yorker Radio Hour.

[Producer/Announcer]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Alexis Quadrado. This episode was produced by Alex Barron, Emily Bottin, Ave Carrillo, Rhiannon Corby, Karen Frillman, Kalalea, David Krasnow, Caroline Lester, Louis Mitchell, Michelle Moses and Steven Valentino, with help from Morgan Flannery, Allison McAdam, Meng Fei Chen and Emily Mann. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Torina Endowment Fund.