The New Yorker Radio Hour: Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause and Settler Colonialism

Podcast Information:

• Title: The New Yorker Radio Hour
• Host/Author: WNYC Studios and The New Yorker
• Description: Profiles, storytelling, and insightful conversations, hosted by David Remnick.
• Episode: Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
• Release Date: December 13, 2024

Introduction

In this episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour, host David Remnick engages in profound discussions with two prominent figures: Rashid Khalidi, a renowned historian of Middle Eastern and Palestinian history, and Adam Kirsch, an editor at The Wall Street Journal. The conversations delve deep into the complexities of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the concept of settler colonialism, and the prospects for peace and reconciliation in the region.

Conversation with Rashid Khalidi

Understanding the History of the Palestinian Conflict

Rashid Khalidi opens the dialogue by reflecting on the challenges of writing a comprehensive history of the Palestinian cause. He emphasizes the fluid and ever-changing political landscape, stating:

"I'm always asked to do that [write about the present]. I'm always asked to do that. And so I hesitate about starting on October 7th. I mean, it is a cataclysmic event." ([03:04])

Khalidi underscores the importance of examining both the antecedents and the sequels of significant events to grasp their full impact on the region.

Hamas and the October 7th Massacre

The discussion shifts to the motivations and intentions behind Hamas' actions on October 7th. Khalidi posits that the decision might have been localized within Gaza's military leadership without broader support from Hamas's external leadership or allies like Hezbollah and Iran. He remarks:

"They were not taken into the confidence of the people who decided on this." ([04:17])

Khalidi suggests that Hamas may have miscalculated the regional response, expecting broader support that did not materialize.

State of the Palestinian Movement

Khalidi paints a bleak picture of the current Palestinian political landscape. He describes it as fragmented and lacking unified leadership:

"The Palestinian national movement for the better part of two decades has been, in my view, in terrible shape." ([09:54])

He highlights the ongoing challenges posed by Israeli policies in the West Bank and Gaza, including land annexation, settlement expansions, and population controls, which further weaken the Palestinian position.

Impact of Israeli Policies and Settler Colonialism

Khalidi discusses the detrimental effects of Israeli occupation and settler colonialism on both Palestinians and Israelis. He explains how such oppressive measures inevitably breed resistance:

"Occupation, ethnic cleansing, Colonization produces resistance." ([11:19])

He also touches upon the internal traumas within Israeli society following the October 7th attacks, noting a shattered sense of security and heightened fear.

Pathways to Conflict Resolution

Drawing from his expertise, Khalidi outlines three historical pathways through which colonial conflicts have concluded: elimination or subjugation of native populations, expulsion of colonizers, and compromise with reconciliation. He emphasizes that:

"It is unavoidable and inevitable. There's no other way." ([33:21])

Khalidi advocates for a solution rooted in justice and equality, where both Palestinians and Israelis can achieve self-determination without the oppression of one group over the other.

Conversation with Adam Kirsch

Settler Colonialism: A Differing Perspective

Adam Kirsch presents a contrasting view to Khalidi's interpretation of settler colonialism as it pertains to Israel. He critiques the oversimplification prevalent in settler colonial theory, which often categorizes populations strictly as settlers or indigenous. Kirsch argues that this binary does not adequately capture the nuanced realities of regions like Israel-Palestine.

Critique of the Settler Colonialism Model

Kirsch disputes Khalidi's characterization of Zionism as a classic settler colonial project. He contends that Zionism is unique because:

• It is not an extension of a mother country's sovereignty.
• It emerged primarily as a refuge for persecuted Jews rather than a traditional colonial expansion.
• The Jewish connection to the Holy Land adds a layer of historical and religious significance absent in other colonial contexts.

He states:

"Settler colonialism involves, in the classic examples, it involves the destruction of one people by another and their replacement over a large territory... that's not at all the history of Israel and Palestine." ([43:00])

Implications for the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Kirsch argues that labeling Israel purely as a settler colony leads to eliminationist rhetoric, which only perpetuates conflict and suffering on both sides. He warns against zero-sum thinking, emphasizing that such perspectives hinder the possibility of peaceful coexistence.

"It's a fight to the death... that means more death." ([42:02])

Reconciliation and Future Prospects

Despite the grim assessments, Kirsch acknowledges the inevitability of reconciliation in the long run. However, he remains skeptical about the immediate prospects given the current political and social dynamics.

"There's no other way. Neither side's going to eliminate the other and nobody's going anywhere." ([45:44])

Conclusion

The episode underscores the deep-seated complexities of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, exploring it through the lenses of history, political theory, and personal narratives. Rashid Khalidi and Adam Kirsch offer divergent yet insightful perspectives on settler colonialism and the pathways toward a just and equitable resolution. As the situation remains volatile, the dialogues emphasize the urgent need for nuanced understanding and innovative approaches to foster peace and reconciliation in the region.

David Remnick wraps up the episode by highlighting the enduring nature of the conflict and the hope for future reconciliation, albeit recognizing the immense challenges ahead.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Khalidi on writing history:

  "It's almost impossible to do... I try to avoid predicting the future..." ([03:04])

• Khalidi on Hamas' intentions:

  "They thought everybody else would join in with them." ([05:22])

• Khalidi on Palestinian movement:

  "The Palestinian national movement... has been in terrible shape." ([09:54])

• Kirsch on settler colonialism theory:

  "Settler colonialism involves... the destruction of one people by another." ([43:00])

• Kirsch on eliminationist rhetoric:

  "It's a fight to the death... that means more death." ([42:02])

Additional Recommendations:

David Remnick concludes by recommending two documentaries for listeners interested in further exploring the Israeli-Palestinian conflict:

1. "The BB Files" by Alexis Bloom – A scathing portrayal of corruption within Israeli leadership, available on Jolt Film.
2. "No Other Land" – A documentary depicting the eradication of Palestinian villages, currently seeking distribution.

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the podcast episode, providing listeners with a clear understanding of the nuanced perspectives surrounding the Palestinian cause and settler colonialism in the Middle East.