Podcast Summary: "Robert Caro on the Fall of New York"

The New Yorker Radio Hour – May 4, 2018
Host: David Remnick
Guests: Robert Caro (biographer), Colm Tóibín (novelist, interviewer)

Episode Overview

This engaging episode features a conversation between legendary biographer Robert Caro and acclaimed novelist Colm Tóibín, recorded at the New Yorker Festival. The discussion, moderated by David Remnick, delves into Caro’s celebrated works on the wielders of American power—Robert Moses (in The Power Broker) and Lyndon B. Johnson (in The Years of Lyndon Johnson). Caro reflects on his methods, the literary qualities of nonfiction, the consequences of power, and the personal stories behind historical change. The exchange is rich with insights into the craft of biography, the dynamics of political leverage, and the unvarnished realities of urban transformation and leadership.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Literary Craft of Biography (01:19–05:40)

• Fiction Techniques in Nonfiction:
  Colm Tóibín opens by asking how fiction writing influenced Caro's biographical approach. Caro discusses the challenge of rendering complex characters truthfully, offering depth and mystery without inventing facts.
  • Quote (Robert Caro):
    "Questions were not what interested [Moses]... I would emerge and think they're such opposite, wholly opposite sides of his character. How does he resolve them within himself? And how do I show them to the reader?" (02:10)
• Robert Moses – Dreamer and Pragmatist:
  Caro illustrates Moses' duality: visionary idealism versus ruthless, pragmatic manipulation.
  • Story of Moses’ emotional investment in projects, e.g., the Fire Island highway.
  • Anecdote about Moses’ use of political leverage, tracing the pathway for swaying a legislative vote through personal connections (03:40–05:24).

2. Impact of ‘The Power Broker’ on Politics Worldwide (05:40–06:55)

• Tóibín humorously recounts how Caro’s books have become manuals for political maneuvering even in Ireland, influencing prominent politicians like Charles J. Haughey.
• Quote (Colm Tóibín):
  "If you want to change a city, you really have to understand how it works. And in order to understand how it works, it's personal and it's down to the smallest detail about people." (06:33)

3. Caro’s Awakening to the Reality of Power (06:55–09:28)

• Caro recounts a pivotal investigative episode: discovering Robert Moses' unchecked power to move public infrastructure plans forward, regardless of political opposition or public opinion.
  • Quote (Robert Caro):
    "Here was a man who was never elected to anything, and he had more power than anyone... And you, Bob... has no idea where he got this power, and neither does anybody else. So that was really the genesis of The Power Broker." (08:45)

4. Showing the Human Cost of Urban Planning (09:28–15:08)

• Tóibín highlights Caro’s narrative about the destruction of neighborhoods like East Tremont, emphasizing the personal losses and social upheaval wrought by Moses' projects.
  • Detailed description of community life displaced by the Cross Bronx Expressway.
  • The emotional weight of documenting the loneliness of the displaced, including Caro’s tireless research methods.
  • Quote (Robert Caro):
    "If I want to talk about political power, I got to show what it does to people." (11:13)
    "I was typing the same word over and over in different interviews. And the word was lonely." (13:06)
  • Moses’ dismissive response to community opposition:
    "'Oh, they just stirred up the animals up there.'... I would really be angry at this man." (14:50)

5. The Lyndon Johnson Epic Begins (16:25–19:02)

• Caro explains how understanding the physical and social environment of Johnson's Texas roots (its isolation, family dynamics, hardship) provided essential context for his personality and political style.
  • Quote (Robert Caro):
    "He had a brother... they used to sit... hoping that one new person would ride by so they'd have a new person to talk to that day." (17:11)

6. Johnson’s Mastery of the U.S. Senate & Insights from Texas (19:02–25:01)

• The importance of local experience in Johnson's Senate leadership—his aversion to losing ("Never let him lose a vote") stems from his father's public failure.
• Johnson’s extraordinary ability to manipulate people—using shrewd observation and tailored persuasion.
• Story of Passing the Civil Rights Bill:
  • Johnson’s decisive and personal methods for shifting three crucial Senate votes in just over six minutes, as captured on tape.
  • Quote (Robert Caro):
    "He changes these three votes in... I think it's 6 minutes and 31 seconds... and we have the Civil Rights Bill." (24:25)

7. The "Blood Feud" with Bobby Kennedy (25:01–30:21)

• Caro traces the visceral hostility between Lyndon Johnson and Bobby Kennedy to their very first encounter—a refusal to respect, exacerbated by political slights and humiliation.
  • Quote (Robert Caro):
    "I call it the greatest blood feud in American politics." (25:43)
    "Here were two men who hated each other from the first moment they saw each other." (26:38)
  • Describes Johnson’s calculated cruelty—after JFK’s assassination, Johnson calls Bobby Kennedy to ask “What’s the exact words I use when I take the oath,” intensifying Kennedy’s grief.

8. The Dallas Moment: Johnson Becomes President (30:21–34:07)

• Tóibín discusses the dramatic transition: Johnson finally achieves the presidency after years of exclusion and humiliation.
• Caro details his painstaking process to reconstruct the moment, gathering testimonies from every living witness present during Johnson’s swearing-in.
  • Quote (Robert Caro):
    "His face was like the face of a graven bronze idol. Whatever he's thinking, we don't know. But... as soon as that happens, he starts giving orders. It's like he's been planning these orders during this half hour." (32:04)
  • On writing the scene:
    "I wrote that scene so many times, I wish I had counted it." (34:08)
    Memorable anecdote: Caro realizes he'd forgotten to interview the photographer present at the swearing-in and tracks him down to complete the portrait.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the demands of biography:
  "If I want to talk about political power, I got to show what it does to people." – Robert Caro (11:13)
• On Lyndon Johnson’s drive:
  "Never let him lose a vote. He must never lose a vote because he had learned the cost of one mistake." – Robert Caro (20:35)
• On the Caro approach to research:
  "I'm not going to write this book until I interview every one of those 26 who's not dead." – Robert Caro (34:31)
• On lasting influence:
  "What happened was when this book came out and Then when the volumes of the Johnson biography came out, Irish politicians began to read them really carefully." – Colm Tóibín (06:06)
• A moment of impact:
  "His face was like the face of a graven bronze idol." – Lady Bird Johnson, as quoted by Caro (32:17)
• On Bobby Kennedy and Johnson:
  "Here were two men who hated each other from the first moment they saw each other." – Robert Caro (26:38)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:19 – Literary influences in Caro’s biography
• 02:10–05:24 – Moses as dreamer and pragmatist; anecdote about Fire Island highway and political maneuvering
• 06:33 – The Power Broker as a manual for politicians globally
• 06:55–09:28 – Caro's "awakening" to non-democratic power in urban planning
• 09:28–15:08 – The destruction of East Tremont; the personal human impact of unaccountable power
• 16:25–19:02 – Caro on reconstructing Johnson’s Texas roots and family dynamic
• 20:35–24:25 – Johnson’s lessons from family history and legislative mastery; passing the Civil Rights Bill
• 25:43–30:21 – The origins and intensity of the Johnson vs. Kennedy feud
• 31:27–34:31 – Johnson’s moment in Dallas and Caro's exhaustive methodology
• 34:31–34:45 – Final thoughts on the writing process and research fidelity

Conclusion

This episode is a masterclass in biography, political analysis, and investigative rigor. Caro’s obsessive attention to detail and the humane depth he brings to the study of power make the conversation as moving as it is intellectually rewarding. Through memorable anecdotes, hard-won lessons, and striking prose, Caro and Tóibín illuminate the ways power is built, maintained, and felt in the lives of the powerful—and those they uproot.

Listeners come away understanding not just who Robert Moses and Lyndon Johnson were, but why the study of power remains as urgent and vital as ever.