Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., and the Confounding Politics of Junk Food. Plus, Kelefa Sanneh on the Long Influence of Kraftwerk

Summary

The New Yorker Radio Hour: Episode Summary

Release Date: May 2, 2025
Title: Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., and the Confounding Politics of Junk Food. Plus, Kelefa Sanneh on the Long Influence of Kraftwerk
Host: David Remnick
Produced by: WNYC Studios and The New Yorker

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I. Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., and the Confounding Politics of Junk Food

A. Introduction to Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. and His Policies

David Remnick opens the episode by exploring Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.'s (RFK Jr.) bid for a position in the second Trump administration, where he introduced the slogan "Make America Healthy Again" (00:41). This slogan, a play on Trump's "Make America Great Again," emphasizes themes such as environmental toxins, biodiversity, and healthy eating. However, RFK Jr.'s tenure at the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) has been controversial. Despite his progressive stance on food and health, he has undermined public trust in vaccines during events like a deadly measles outbreak and overseen significant cuts to scientific research, including critical diabetes studies (01:37).

B. RFK Jr.'s Stance on Junk Food and Public Health

Remnick highlights a paradox in RFK Jr.'s policies: while he criticizes ultra-processed foods, his superiors at HHS have a history of supporting fast food chains (01:50). In an interview with Sean Hannity at a Florida burger chain, RFK Jr. states:

"You know, all the science indicates that ultra processed foods are the principal culprit. And this extraordinary explosion, the epidemic we have of chronic disease with my uncle." (01:37)

This statement positions junk food as a central issue in public health debates.

C. Insights from Nutrition Expert Marian Nestle

Dhruv Kullar, a physician and contributor to The New Yorker, interviews Marian Nestle, a professor emerita at New York University and author of Food Politics. Nestle provides a critical analysis of RFK Jr.'s potential impact on food policy (02:20).

"Nobody has asked me. I think what you have to do first of all is you have to put restrictions on the food industry... Is RFK Jr going to take on the food industry? I'll believe it when I see it." (04:06)

Nestle emphasizes the need for stringent regulations on the food industry, particularly in marketing junk foods to children, expressing skepticism about RFK Jr.'s willingness to confront powerful food corporations.

D. Defining Ultra Processed Foods

The discussion delves into what constitutes ultra-processed foods, referencing the classification system developed by Brazilian public health professor Carlos Monteiro (05:00). Nestle explains the four categories of food processing:

1. Unprocessed or minimally processed foods: Examples include corn on the cob or apples.
2. Processed culinary ingredients: Such as salt, sugar, and oils.
3. Processed foods: Like frozen pizzas or simple packaged foods.
4. Ultra-processed foods: Industrially manufactured foods with ingredients not typically used in home kitchens, often including additives like artificial colors and preservatives.

E. Real-World Examples and Impacts

Nestle and Kullar examine common grocery items to illustrate ultra-processed foods. Using Doritos (06:13) as an example, Nestle breaks down its ingredients to highlight the industrial processing involved:

"This is the prototypical ultra processed, processed food... These foods are processed to make them. A lot of people use the word addiction." (06:20)

They also discuss whole wheat bread and yogurt, showing that even seemingly healthy options can fall into the ultra-processed category due to added ingredients like preservatives and artificial sweeteners (07:42).

F. Health Implications and Research

Nestle underscores the consistent findings across numerous studies linking high consumption of ultra-processed foods to adverse health outcomes, including obesity, type 2 diabetes, and heart disease (10:42). She elaborates on the methodological challenges in nutrition research, emphasizing the reliability of controlled clinical trials over self-reported observational studies (11:31).

"Let me tell you, in nutrition, this is very unusual. It's unusual to have this level of consistency where every study of ultra processed food shows that people who eat a lot of these kinds of things have worse health outcomes." (10:49)

G. Dietary Guidelines and Policy Recommendations

Kullar raises concerns about the upcoming dietary guidelines, noting that the expert panel dismissed controlled trials due to their short duration, relying instead on animal and observational studies (15:29). Nestle criticizes this approach, advocating for stronger recommendations against ultra-processed foods based on the existing evidence (16:02).

H. Potential Policy Measures

The conversation touches on various policy proposals to combat the prevalence of ultra-processed foods, such as banning them in schools, imposing taxes on certain additives, and altering agricultural subsidies to favor healthier ingredients like whole grains over corn and soy (16:43). Nestle emphasizes the necessity of reducing political influence from the food industry to achieve meaningful change (16:54).

I. Personal Perspectives on Food Choices

Nestle shares her own approach to food, balancing the enjoyment of junk foods with a preference for "real food" (18:32).

"I like real food. I mean, I have my favorite junk foods and I eat my favorite junk foods. I just don't eat a lot of them." (18:44)

J. Conclusion on RFK Jr.'s Role

Nestle expresses cautious optimism about RFK Jr.'s potential to influence the food system positively but remains doubtful about his capacity to challenge entrenched industry interests effectively (18:58).

"I just think that in order to do that, he's going to have to take on the food industry. And I don't think Trump has a history of taking on corporations of any kind." (18:58)

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II. Kelefa Sanneh on the Long Influence of Kraftwerk

A. Introduction to Kraftwerk’s Legacy

Kelefa Sanneh transitions the episode to a musical exploration, focusing on Kraftwerk, a pioneering German electronic band. Sanneh provides a primer on Kraftwerk’s history and influence on contemporary music (24:14).

B. Kraftwerk’s Early Work and Breakthroughs

Sanneh discusses Kraftwerk's debut in 1970 and their seminal 1974 album Autobahn, which gained significant attention by reaching number five on the American album charts. Despite initial perceptions of the album as a novelty record featuring German-themed songs, Autobahn underscored Kraftwerk's innovative use of electronic instruments (25:17).

"The album was kind of considered a novelty record... These Germans singing about the Autobahn... turned out to be true, more or less." (25:31)

C. "Trans Europe Express" and Its Cultural Impact

The 1977 track "Trans Europe Express" is highlighted for its sterile, rhythmic sound and its unexpected influence on later genres. Sanneh notes how the track was transformed into "Planet Rock" by Afrika Bambaataa and Soulsonic Force, bridging the gap between Kraftwerk’s electronic vision and the rise of techno and hip-hop (27:10).

D. Kraftwerk’s Influence on Techno and Beyond

Sanneh elaborates on Kraftwerk's lasting impact, citing their 1981 album Computer World and tracks like "Numbers" and "Computer Love." These songs not only advanced the genre of electronic music but also inspired numerous artists across various genres. The innovative use of technology in their music, such as the language translator from Texas Instruments for vocals, showcased Kraftwerk’s commitment to blending technology with art (29:07).

E. Legacy and Continued Relevance

Sanneh reflects on Kraftwerk’s evolution into a legacy act, with original members like Florian Schneider and Ralph Hutter playing pivotal roles. The band’s enduring influence is evident in modern music, as their tracks continue to be sampled and reimagined by contemporary artists (33:21).

"Even as the tempos swing a million degrees... Kraftwerk was roots music. And for a techno producer, that's a way of paying tribute to the eight-years-old German track that helped inspire them." (31:03)

F. Personal Anecdotes and Final Thoughts

David Remnick shares a personal connection, noting how Kraftwerk’s music resonates with him, particularly in relation to his children’s interests. The segment concludes with reflections on Kraftwerk's unparalleled creativity and their role as pioneers in electronic music (34:14).

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Marian Nestle on Ultra-Processed Foods:

  "These foods were deliberately designed to be profitable. That was their purpose. They weren't designed for public health purposes." (07:03)

• Nestle on Nutritional Studies:

  "In nutrition, this is very unusual. It's unusual to have this level of consistency where every study of ultra processed food shows that people who eat a lot of these kinds of things have worse health outcomes." (10:49)

• Nestle on Dietary Guidelines:

  "They deliberately excluded any consideration of the controlled clinical trials because they said they were too short... I was very disappointed." (16:02)

• Sanneh on Kraftwerk’s Influence:

  "This is the ultimate musical lesson. That no matter what kind of pioneer you are, you're gonna come back to life as a Coldplay song." (34:36)

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Conclusion

This episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour offers a comprehensive examination of Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.'s complex role in American health politics, particularly regarding the regulation of ultra-processed foods. Through expert insights from Marian Nestle, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the challenges and potential strategies for improving public health through dietary reforms.

Simultaneously, Kelefa Sanneh provides an engaging exploration of Kraftwerk's enduring legacy in the music world, highlighting their groundbreaking contributions to electronic music and their profound influence on genres like techno and hip-hop.

Together, these discussions underscore the intricate interplay between politics, public health, and cultural innovation, offering listeners both critical analysis and enriching perspectives on contemporary issues.

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For those interested in delving deeper, transcripts of this episode are available here.

Transcript

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[Kelefossaneh]

Listener Supported WNYC Studios.

[David Remnick]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Last fall, when Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Was angling for a position in the second Trump administration, he introduced the slogan Make America Healthy Again. Maha. It riffed on MAGA but focused on themes far more familiar in liberal circles. Toxins in the environment, biodiversity, and healthy eating. So it's all kind of confusing. At the Department of Health and Human Services, Kennedy is undermining public trust in vaccines, even during a deadly measles outbreak. And he's overseeing massive cuts to research across American science, ending critical diabetes studies, for example. But meanwhile, the FDA says it wants to curtail the use of certain food dyes, and Kennedy is talking about seed oils and processed food. Here's Kennedy recently in an interview with Sean Hannity that took place at a Florida burger chain.

[Marian Nestle]

You know, all the science indicates that ultra processed foods are the principal culprit. And this extraordinary explosion, the epidemic we have of chronic disease with my uncle.

[David Remnick]

Kennedy has put ultra processed food, or junk food, call it what you will, right into the political conversation. Now, you wouldn't necessarily expect this, given his boss's devotion to fast food chains.

[Marian Nestle]

It's not probably healthy, but I'm not sure I believe in that.

[David Remnick]

You know, you eat, who knows?

[Marian Nestle]

You know, they say don't eat this food, don't eat that. Well, maybe those foods are good for you.

[David Remnick]

The New Yorker's Dhruv Kullar is a physician and he's been reporting on the American diet for the New Yorker.

[Dhruv Kullar]

When I started researching this topic, I knew that I wanted to talk to Marianne Nestle. She really put on the map the ways in which politics and economics influence our food, environment and ultimately our health.

[David Remnick]

Marian Nestle is a professor emerita at New York University, and her books include Food Politics. She spoke with Dhruv Kullar.

[Dhruv Kullar]

I want to talk a little bit about Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. You know, he has many controversial claims, of course, on vaccines and other parts of health, but he is very concerned about ultra processed foods and rates of chronic disease in this country. And what do you make of the potential that he's going to drive real change in this area that's towards the good.

[Marian Nestle]

Well, first of all, when President Trump tweeted that he was nominating RFK Jr. For this position, he talked about the food industrial complex. I nearly fell off my chair. That sounds like me. I talk about the food industrial complex. And the first thing that the president did was to appoint this high level council which is to write a report on the nutritional health of the population and how to prevent chronic disease. And when I read that, I thought, this is so exciting. And my second thought was, wait a minute, I've seen this. Didn't we already do this? Isn't this exactly what Michelle Obama did? Well, that's what I want to say.

[Dhruv Kullar]

Is the rhetoric seems to be there. But are we going to see the requisite action? And what would that action even look like? Like if you were to counsel RFK Jr on how to actually make a dent on ultra processed foods and the chronic diseases that are associated with it, what would you want to see him do?

[Marian Nestle]

Let me first state very clearly that nobody has asked me. I think what you have to do first of all is you have to put restrictions on the food industry. You have to the food industry, from marketing junk foods to kids. Ultra processed, if you like. You've got to stop that. Is RFK Jr going to take on the food industry? I'll believe it when I see it. When Michelle Obama attempted to do even much, much less than this just to get food companies to voluntarily stop marketing junk foods to kids, the pushback on it was extraordinary. From exactly the people who are for it now. Well, I'm glad times have change. See them do something.

[Dhruv Kullar]

Yeah. What exactly are ultra processed foods? Like, how do we define ultra processed foods when we're trying to study them?

[Marian Nestle]

You have to understand the background of this a little bit. And that is that a professor of public health in Brazil, Carlos Montero, devised this concept in 2009 and he divided foods into four categories. Unprocessed or minimally processed foods like corn on the cob or apples or, you know, things that you just eat. A second category was processed culinary ingredients. And by that he means salt, sugars, salad oils, vinegar, the kinds of things that you cook with. And then the third category is processed foods, things that are frozen foods that have been packaged foods that have been cut and processed in some way. But they're really pretty simple. The fourth category is different. These are foods that have been industrially processed. The operating definition is you can't make them in your home kitchen.

[Dhruv Kullar]

I Brought some groceries that I was hoping that we could go through together. And you can tell me whether they're ultra processed, and if so, what is making them ultra processed. Okay, let's take a look here. What do we got?

[Marian Nestle]

Oh, Doritos.

[Dhruv Kullar]

Doritos. Okay, I can probably guess which category this falls into, but just take a look and tell us what makes it.

[Marian Nestle]

This is the prototypical ultra processed, processed food. Because it started out with corn. Corn is the first ingredient. Does this look anything like corn to you?

[Kevin Hall]

No.

[Marian Nestle]

Industrially processed. It's got real food in it. It has corn vegetable oil, but then it has corn maltodextrin as the third ingredient. But it's got things like whey protein concentrate, potassium salt, tomato powder, lactose, spices, artificial colors, lots of them. Disodium inositate, disodium guanylate.

[Dhruv Kullar]

So you don't have that in your home kitchen?

[Marian Nestle]

I don't have that in my kitchen, and I cannot buy it at my local grocery store. These foods are processed to make them. A lot of people use the word addiction. I'm a little uncomfortable with it, but there it is. The idea that that old Frito Lays commercial that you can't eat just one. That's exact the point of these. These foods were deliberately designed to be profitable. That was their purpose. They weren't designed for public health purposes.

[Dhruv Kullar]

This is something that I would walk past in the grocery store and think, okay, 100% whole wheat bread. This has gotta be good. This cannot be ultra processed. Tell me what you think.

[Marian Nestle]

Whole wheat bread is in the. What I call the conditionally ultra processed category. Cause you can get whole wheat breads that are ultra processed, and you can also get whole wheat breads that are not. Okay, the ingred lists. I love starting whole wheat flour. Nothing wrong with that. Second, third ingredient, wheat gluten. Oh. So that's to boost the protein content. Sugar, yeast, fine vegetable oil, fine salt, fine preservatives, calcium propionate, sorbic acid, datum, natural flavors. There's no such thing. Monoglycerides, monocalcium phosphate, soy lecithin, citric acid, vinegar, sesame seeds.

[Dhruv Kullar]

That sounds extremely ultra processed.

[Marian Nestle]

Ultra processed.

[Dhruv Kullar]

And why would they do that?

[Marian Nestle]

Two reasons. People like soft bread. People don't like whole wheat bread. Whole wheat bread is an acquired taste. It's very difficult for people. Humans have been making white bread for millennia because it tastes better, it's easier to digest. You don't have to chew it as much. But this stuff is really soft. Very, very soft. So that's what the Datum and these other things in there are doing. And it'll sit on the shelf for a really long time. It won't get moldy.

[Dhruv Kullar]

All right, what do we got here? We have yogurt, so most people would think yogurt, that's pretty healthy. We have a very vanilla yogurt here, so maybe there's some trouble there.

[Marian Nestle]

This one. So it's got cultured grade A nonfat milk. Yes. Water. Yes. Modified food starch. Sigh. Oh, it's got allulose, one of those indigestible sweeteners. Kosher gelatin, cornstarch, citric acid. Where'd you find this? Sucralose, an artificial sweetener. Tricalcium phosphate, potassium sorbate. Oh, another artificial sweetener. This thing has three artificial sweeteners in it. Doesn't have any sugar. Doesn't say anything about the cultures. What you want in yogurt is you want all those friendly bacteria to make your microbiome happy. I'm not sure the friendly bacteria like all this stuff.

[Dhruv Kullar]

So a yogurt that has an emulsifier or a thickener is surely not the same as a bag of Doritos or gummy bears.

[Marian Nestle]

No, it's not.

[Dhruv Kullar]

But, but, but how do you help people understand that nuance? Is it like if you could make it at your home, but it has this one ingredient? It's probably okay. Just trying to help us understand. Okay.

[Marian Nestle]

I mean, everybody knows what junk foods are. You know, when I talk about ultra processed foods, everybody gets it right away. If you've got a yogurt in front of you and it's got M and Ms. Added to it, and it's loaded with sugar and it tastes like a dessert. You know that you're dealing with something that's ultra process.

[Dhruv Kullar]

But then aren't we just back at square one where ultra processed foods is a fancy way to say junk food?

[David Remnick]

Oh, sure.

[Marian Nestle]

The point about the ultra processed food classification is that people were able to do research. And this research has been overwhelming in its consistency. Let me tell you, in nutrition, this is very unusual. It's unusual to have this level of consistency where every study of ultra processed food shows that people who eat a lot of these kinds of things have worse health outcomes. And the controlled clinical trials that show that these foods get people to eat more. Not only more, but a lot more.

[Dhruv Kullar]

So tell us a little bit about the ways in which people have been studying this concept and why you think it's such a consistent story.

[Marian Nestle]

The observational research looks at what people self report Eating, all it can do is demonstrate association that if you eat a lot of ultra processed foods, the chances are, and we're talking about probabilities, you have a higher chance of gaining weight, becoming obese, having type 2 diabetes, having heart disease later on. And the problem with self reports in nutrition is, I'm going to put this politely, people have a hard time remembering what they eat out and out they lie. So to get around that, you need really well controlled clinical trials. These are breathtakingly expensive to run because they require a locked metabolic ward facility in which people volunteer to be locked up for some period of time, never more than four weeks, because people can't stand it. And everything they eat, drink or ingest is monitored, and everything they excrete is monitored, and their behavior and their physical activity and everything else is monitored. And they can't lie or cheat.

[Dhruv Kullar]

I had a chance to go to the NIH to observe one of these clinical trials recently, and it's hard to overstate how meticulously they go about doing things. I mean, someone comes into the lab, every bite that they put in their body is measured. The chefs who are cooking the food, they are basically doing chemistry experiments in the kitchen to try to make sure that the amount of salt and fiber is exactly matched in ultra processed and processed diets. When people were on the unprocessed diet versus the ultra processed diet, on the ultra processed diet, they ate 500 calories more each and every day, which is on average, which is an enormous, it's just an enormous amount.

[Marian Nestle]

And they gained weight. Of course they gained weight. They gained a pound a week. That's 500 calories a day, 3,500 calories a week. That's a pound.

[Dhruv Kullar]

Right.

[Marian Nestle]

The people who were in the study didn't know which diet they were eating. So because they all tasted good, they liked the food. The shifts must be unbelievable then. The big heavy criticism of the study is that it's too short and that there would be regression to the mean later on. And that's possible. So I tell the critics, great, go ahead and criticize. But why aren't you fighting to get him more money to do longer studies with more people?

[Dhruv Kullar]

So the headline finding here is that ultra processed foods tend to make people eat more than they otherwise would. And it seems there might be two reasons for that. One is hyperpalatability. And so the combinations of sugar and fat. Exactly. Yum. These combinations of things that you don't often find in nature, but you find in ultra processed foods in high quantities, people can't eat just one. As you said, the other big driver seems to be calorie density. So for every bite that you take, there's just many more calories per bite. So of course you're going to tend to eat more. And your body may not have time to realize it's full before it's already consumed many more calories. You could envision ultra processed foods doing a number of other things to the body. I mean, one is changing the microbiome. And so maybe the microbiome changes in interesting ways. You process food differently than you would on a more natural diet. Let's say two is changing the endocrine system in some way, the hormones that help us regulate how full we feel and how our body responds to food. And the third is our taste buds. You know, if you're getting big hits of salt and sugar and fat, your taste buds are going to adapt in a way that they want more of that over time.

[Marian Nestle]

But we know that works with salt.

[Dhruv Kullar]

Yes, okay.

[Marian Nestle]

We absolutely know that. And with sugar. But those are difficult theories. I like simple explanations. The simple explanation is these things just are so yummy that people can't stop eating them. You know, when you're eating a salad, you know when you've had enough salad, you've got a bunch of Oreo cookies in front of you. Well, I'll just have one more. They're small.

[Dhruv Kullar]

Yeah. I want to ask you about the dietary guidelines. So a group of experts met in the fall to preview their recommendations for the next five years of dietary guidelines for the United States. And that group of nutrition experts at least seem to say that we don't have enough high quality evidence to make a strong recommendation against ultra processed foods. I think they talked about some caution around processed meats, but they declined to basically tell people in a clear way that you should avoid ultra processed foods. What did you make of that?

[Marian Nestle]

They deliberately excluded any consideration of the controlled clinical trials because they said they were too short. So they were completely dismissed as if they never existed. All of the studies that they looked at were either animal studies or observational studies. And on that basis they said, well, we can't make a decision about it. I thought that was a very weak recommendation. I was very disappointed.

[Dhruv Kullar]

What do you make of some of the other ideas? I mean, I'm thinking about things like no ultra processed food in schools. I'm thinking about taxes on certain types of foods or food additives. Changing the subsidies to corn and soy, for instance. You know, what do you make of.

[Marian Nestle]

Those types of products? For all of those. For all of those. You know, I think if we're really going to change the food system, the first thing we have to do is get money out of politics. But that's a little off topic.

[Dhruv Kullar]

Okay, gotcha. Gotcha. As I understand it, there's this, what I call the vitamin era. Around the Great Depression and the World War II. There's the nutrient era, maybe mid century to the 90s, where people are focused on individual nutrients. And then kind of more of a dietary pattern era. Maybe we've been in that one since the 90s. How does Ultra processed food fit into that framework, if at all?

[Marian Nestle]

Yeah, I mean, that's my trajectory. The first thing I was interested in was vitamins. I loved them all. They're all so interesting. Each one is different. They do different things in the body. To me, they were intellectually fascinating. I just adored them. And then I realized that people don't eat vitamins except people who take supplements and they eat food. And food is really complicated. You know, eventually I thought, well, wait a minute. People don't eat food. They eat diets. They're eating lots of different foods. These foods interact in different ways. The basic principles of nutrition are try to eat as much of a variety of real food as you can. I mean, the big change was the shift from not having enough nutrients to having too many calories. And then in 1980, the inflection point when President Reagan was elected, and lots and lots of policy changes took place then rates of obesity, the prevalence of obesity started to rise very, very rapidly. The reasons for that, I think, are pretty well understood. People ate more. And there's tons of evidence that people started eating more in the 1980s. Portion sizes got larger. A sufficient explanation.

[Dhruv Kullar]

So, Marian, you're someone who's probably thought about this more than anyone that I know. What's your relationship to food? How do you make the right decisions? Okay. And how do you choose the right foods?

[Marian Nestle]

I like real food. I mean, I have my favorite junk foods and I eat my favorite junk foods. I just don't eat a lot of them.

[Dhruv Kullar]

Yeah. Marian, this is so helpful. Is there anything that I haven't asked about that you want to make sure that we get to or that you want to add?

[Marian Nestle]

Well, just that this is such an interesting time in American politics, and I think it would be wonderful if RFK Jr. Could make the food supply healthier. I just think that in order to do that, he's going to have to take on the food industry. And I don't think Trump has a history of taking on corporations of any kind. So we'll see. Maybe he'll get them to volunteer. Maybe he'll be able to do what Michelle Obama was unable to do because of the opposition.

[Dhruv Kullar]

I guess time will tell. Thank you Lively. This was great.

[Marian Nestle]

You're fun to talk.

[Dhruv Kullar]

This was a lot of fun. Yeah, I appreciate it. Appreciate it.

[David Remnick]

Marion Nestle is a nutrition researcher and the author of books including Food Politics, which is also the name of her blog. Dhruv Kular is a physician and a contributor to the New Yorker. Now, after they spoke, One of the NIH's top scientists studying ultra processed food, Kevin hall, left the agency. Hall says that he experienced censorship. He wasn't allowed to speak to the media about research results that did not support what he called preconceived HHS narratives. A spokesman for the department told CNN that this was a deliberate distortion of the facts. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour with more to come.

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[Kelefossaneh]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm Kelefossaneh. I'm here with the brilliant and perceptive David Remnick, who is not only the host of this show, he also writes the intros.

[David Remnick]

This is such a setup, David.

[Kelefossaneh]

We're gonna talk about one of the most influential bands of all time. I'm gonna play you some tracks and explain why they're influential. And here is our first snippet.

[David Remnick]

I'm all ears.

[Kelefossaneh]

David, Name that band Kraftwerk. Kraftwerk. Of course. This is Rukzuk. I'm seeing them tomorrow from their 1970 debut album. You're going to see Craftwork.

[David Remnick]

See him at my at my kids behest.

[Kelefossaneh]

Well, this will be a pre concert primer for you then.

[David Remnick]

Oh, I hope so.

[Kelefossaneh]

Listeners of a certain age may know that song Rookzuk, because it was used as the theme song to Newton's Apple, the public television show about science. And back Then Kraftwerk. They were kind of like a progressive rock band back then.

[Marian Nestle]

Right.

[Kelefossaneh]

It kind of almost sounds like Tubular Bells or one of those records they have been around.

[David Remnick]

I mean, the Beatles had just broken up when they got together.

[Marian Nestle]

Kraftwerk. Yes.

[Kelefossaneh]

Early 70s, 73, too. Well, that.

[Dhruv Kullar]

The.

[Kelefossaneh]

The debut record is 1970. And, you know, they're obsessed with electronic instruments, but also electronic rhythm, which turned out to be important to the history of music.

[David Remnick]

Sure did.

[Kelefossaneh]

1974, they made this album called Autobahn. Here's a little bit of.

[David Remnick]

Ah, yes. Ah, yes. I remember it well.

[Kelefossaneh]

The album was kind of a hit. It went to number five on the American album chart. And it was kind of like a lot of great bands or great tracks. It was kind of considered a novelty record. Right. Like these Germans singing about the Autobahn. And there was this idea that, like, these artsy Germans from Dusseldorf were making the music of the future. And the funniest thing about that joke is it turned out to be true, more or less. Although if you wanted to make a parody of German music, you probably couldn't do much better than this track. Trans Europe Express, 1977. Leave Paris in the morning with tee.

[Marian Nestle]

Trans Europe Express.

[Dhruv Kullar]

Trans Europe Express.

[Kelefossaneh]

It's tidy, it's severe. There's lyrics about trains. But the funny thing about this is, a few years later, Trans Europe Express was reborn as a track called Planet Rock by Africa Bambaata and Soul Sonic Force.

[David Remnick]

Yeah, something else is creeping in here.

[Kelefossaneh]

Yeah. And. And. And part of what I like about this history is it's. It kind of flips the history of rock and roll, right? You have this rock and roll history of these. These beloved old black blues musicians. And these upstart white bands are ripping them off. And here the role of the beloved black, older blues musician is played by the members of Kraftwerk. And, you know, it's funny how quickly that sound, that Kraftwerky sound comes to be associated with other things. It comes to be associated with breakdancers and stuff.

[David Remnick]

That's absolutely true. In the subway, more often than not. When you'd see Breakdancers, when it first kind of popped up, Kraftwerk was not an uncommon music to be, you know, the backing track for that scene as much as possible.

[Kelefossaneh]

Did you ever bust out a little bit of cardboard and do some moves, David?

[David Remnick]

Less frequently than you would have thought.

[Kelefossaneh]

I can barely spin on my feet. It wouldn't have worked well. So in 1981, Kraftwerk, you know, synthesizers are not so new anymore. And Kraftwerk makes basically a concept album about a different Emerging technology, the personal computer also turned out to be important.

[Marian Nestle]

Very.

[Kelefossaneh]

I heard that they called it Computer World. And one of the best tracks is Number. You know, the vocals kind of sound like they're coming from a speak and spell. But in fact, I believe they're coming from a device called the language translator, which was made by the same company, Texas Instruments, that made the Speak and Spell. They were experimenting with all this stuff. And one of the things they've realized is, you know, I think a lot of us thought that to be a hit, a song probably needed a catchy tune. I think what they realized is they got more and more interested in the textures and sounds that were coming out of these electronic equipments. And they realized that you could have a rigid electronic beat, but somehow have enough happening that it wouldn't be boring and it wouldn't be predictable. Or if it was predictable, it would be predictable in a good way.

[David Remnick]

But they were arguably the first.

[Kelefossaneh]

Well, you know, a lot of people were using this stuff, right? Like Sly Stone has one of the first drum machine hits, right, in 1971. So, you know, people are using this electronic stuff, but they had a. There was something about their vision. And as with anything else, they put elements together in a way that was catchy. It's a funny word to use about a track like numbers, but numbers comes back here. Here's a way in which numbers comes back. A trio from Florida called Anquette has a song called Shake it, do the 61st. And if you listen closely, you can hear those chirping, fluttering synthesizers in the background. From Number. That's the group Ankhet.

[David Remnick]

Yeah.

[Kelefossaneh]

So I know we are a little bit digressive. I'd like to get extra digressive here for a moment. David Ankhet. This group had an album called Respect, executive produced by Luther Campbell from 2 Live Crew. And it includes a song about guys who don't pay their child support. And I guarantee you this is a group from Florida, late 80s. You will never in a million years. Guess what this track is called. The single is called Janet Reno, who at the time was, I believe, a U.S. attorney in Miami, Dade County.

[David Remnick]

That was before she was in the Clinton administration.

[Kelefossaneh]

She was a local figure. And the idea was that if you don't pay your child support, Janet Reno is going to come after you. I don't know if she owns an autographed copy of that single, but I hope she does. Anyway, back to Kraftwerk. This one particular track, Numbers, kept getting recycled and sampled and sampled. You might recognize the robotic Counting in this techno track. So, yeah, this is an oven. This is Mike Hitman Wilson's remix of Rock to the Beat by Reese, which is a name of the producer Kevin Saunderson, who was one of the Detroit producers who created techno. And so this is a fairly early techno track. This is only a few years after the genre was born. And by this point, like Kraftwerk is roots music. And for a techno producer, that's a way of paying tribute to, you know, the eight, by this point, eight years old German track that helped inspire them. Okay, one last Kraftwerk track, Computer Love, from that same 1981 album, Computer World. It's kind of a love song about computers. I think the sense of humor in Kraftwerk is sometimes underrated. Yeah, they're like a kind of. There's a silliness to them or a sense of play.

[David Remnick]

This is familiar. And does the creativity and the innovation come to a halt at a certain point? Do they become an oldies band in a way?

[Kelefossaneh]

Well, I think it's fair to say most of the people who come to see them now are there for the older songs. Right. They'd call that a legacy act.

[David Remnick]

Right.

[Kelefossaneh]

Not oldies.

[David Remnick]

It's the original members.

[Kelefossaneh]

One of the original members, yes.

[David Remnick]

So everybody else is kind of a replacement along the way.

[Kelefossaneh]

Yeah. So the heart of Kraftwerk was Florian Schneider and Ralph Hutter. Ralph Hutter is still alive and touring. Florian schneider died in 2020. So, you know, it's partly an opportunity to pay tribute to this legacy. But, David, I think you might have. You might have told on yourself a little bit. You said that this track, Computer Love, sounded kind of familiar.

[David Remnick]

Something.

[Kelefossaneh]

I think I know why.

[David Remnick]

Why?

[Kelefossaneh]

Because Coldplay took the melody and used it for talk from 2005.

[Dhruv Kullar]

Wow.

[Kelefossaneh]

This is the ultimate musical lesson. That no matter what kind of pioneer you are, you're gonna come back to life as a Coldplay song.

[David Remnick]

That's a hard fake.

[Marian Nestle]

Kelp.

[David Remnick]

Thanks so much.

[Kelefossaneh]

I'll see you next time.

[David Remnick]

Calif. Asana is a staff writer at the New Yorker. And you can find his work, of course, @New Yorker.com. the Kraftwerk Tour is on to the UK and Europe in June. I'm David Remnick. That's our program for today. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters. Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul and Ursula Summ, with guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guang and Alejandra Deckett.

[Kelefossaneh]

And we had additional help this week from Jake Loomis.

[David Remnick]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.

[WNYC Studios]

WNYC Studios is supported by the United Nations Refugee Agency.

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