The New Yorker Radio Hour
Episode: “Ronan Farrow on a Campaign of Silence”
Host: David Remnick
Guest: Ronan Farrow
Air Date: October 18, 2019
Episode Overview
This episode features an in-depth conversation between David Remnick and Ronan Farrow, focusing on Farrow’s new book, Catch and Kill, and his Pulitzer Prize-winning reporting on Harvey Weinstein. The discussion reveals the extreme tactics powerful men, particularly Weinstein, used to silence accusers and reporters—including the employment of private intelligence firms like Black Cube. Farrow details the resulting intimidation, the failures of major media outlets, and the ripple effects on both journalism and the #MeToo movement. The episode also introduces key figures who risked their own safety to expose these abuses.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Black Cube: The Private Spy Firm
- What is Black Cube?
- An Israeli private intelligence firm with close, blurry ties to Mossad and the Israeli military. Staffed by elite intelligence operatives, Black Cube specializes in undercover work, deception, and using false identities. (01:06)
- Hired by Weinstein, following advice from former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, to surveil journalists and accusers. (02:06)
- Perception vs. Reality:
- Farrow and Remnick both recall initial disbelief at the idea—“I thought you were out of your mind.” (01:53, Remnick)
- “Who could believe such a thing?” (02:00, Farrow)
2. Discovery and Evidence of Surveillance
- Early Signs:
- During summer 2017, Farrow notices repeated encounters with the same vehicles and people; both he and his sources receive strange calls. (02:51)
- Breakthrough Source:
- A source inside Black Cube, codenamed “Sleeper,” leaks documents confirming undercover operations targeting Rose McGowan and others. (04:23)
- “It’s not just about darkness and crime and cover-ups. It’s about really brave people putting their jobs and maybe more on the line to try to out the truth.” (04:23, Farrow)
3. Igor Ostrovsky’s Story: A Black Cube Subcontractor Testifies (Includes Interview Excerpt)
- Early Jobs:
- Ostrovsky recounts being tasked to follow New York Times reporter Jodi Kantor and then Farrow himself to identify their sources. (05:52–07:19)
- “We followed Jodi to the New York Times building...to figure out who her source is.” (06:08, Ostrovsky)
- Moral Conflict:
- Ostrovsky, an immigrant from Ukraine, reflects on the attack on media freedom:
- “If I allow this to happen and I walk away and I don't do anything, then I’m complicit in allowing the media—the way of life I believe in—to be attacked and changed, and that could be irreversible.” (08:28, Ostrovsky)
- Ostrovsky, an immigrant from Ukraine, reflects on the attack on media freedom:
4. Weinstein’s Web of Intimidation
- Tactics Beyond Black Cube:
- Engaged multiple private investigators to dig up dirt on accusers and journalists. (11:43, Farrow)
- Leveraged relationships with media—notably the National Enquirer and NBC executives—to suppress damaging stories. (11:43–14:27)
- Media Failures and Possible Blackmail:
- “They [NBC] ordered a stop. And the reporting in this book, I think, gives a pretty good sense why.” (12:51, Farrow)
- Weinstein may have used damaging material on high-profile NBC figures like Matt Lauer, in collaboration with the Enquirer, to pressure NBC. (13:23–14:15)
5. National Enquirer, Dylan Howard, and Political Entanglements
- Enquirer’s Dirt Files:
- Farrow’s reporting exposes the National Enquirer’s wide-ranging “catch and kill” deals for both Weinstein and Donald Trump, including document shredding and suppression of negative stories. (15:08–15:55)
- Political Influence:
- Nick Merrill, Hillary Clinton’s longtime staffer, expressed “concern for us” over Farrow’s Weinstein story—demonstrating how deeply reporting on Weinstein had penetrated circles of power. (15:55–17:19)
6. Victim Slander and Media Manipulation
- Weinstein’s Disinformation Campaign:
- Used tactics like planting false stories (e.g., calling an accuser a prostitute) and releasing photos to undermine victims. (17:19)
- “Slut-shaming has always been a part of the response to sexual assault.” (17:59, Remnick)
- Matt Lauer’s Denials:
- Farrow describes how Lauer and Weinstein similarly tried to frame incidents as consensual affairs, ignoring evidence and patterns of coercion and power imbalance. (18:15–20:00)
7. Journalist-Source Relationships
- Lasting Impact:
- Farrow remains in regular contact with sources, acknowledging the ongoing emotional toll and responsibility he feels toward them. (20:31)
- “The emotional toll of that commitment is long and honestly never-ending.” (20:39, Farrow)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On disbelief at espionage tactics:
“I thought you were out of your mind. I thought you were getting a little too tired, be a little delusional.”
— David Remnick (01:53) -
On moral duty:
“If I allow this to happen and I walk away and I don’t do anything, then I’m complicit in allowing the media—the way of life I believe in—to be attacked and changed, and that could be irreversible.”
— Igor Ostrovsky (08:28) -
On intimidation:
“There were nights where, you know, I had been told by sources to get a gun. I had moved out of my apartment.”
— Ronan Farrow (10:59) -
On media complicity:
“They [NBC] ordered a stop. And the reporting in this book, I think, gives a pretty good sense why.”
— Ronan Farrow (12:51) -
On the personal impact for sources:
“The emotional tale of that commitment is long and honestly never ending.”
— Ronan Farrow (20:39)
Timestamps for Important Segments
- Black Cube & Espionage Tactics: 01:06–04:52
- Igor Ostrovsky Interview: 05:03–09:28
- Harvey Weinstein’s Other Tactics: 11:43–14:27
- National Enquirer & Political Influence: 15:08–17:19
- Victim Slander & Matt Lauer Discussion: 17:19–20:00
- Farrow’s Ongoing Relationship with Sources: 20:31–22:07
Conclusion
This episode illuminates how far some individuals and institutions will go to cover up abuse, the personal risks involved in exposing these truths, and the ongoing, real-world consequences for both journalists and whistleblowers. Farrow’s reporting and persistence, as discussed with Remnick, underscore the necessity and peril of holding the powerful to account.
Further Reading:
- Ronan Farrow’s book: Catch and Kill
- The Black Cube Chronicles on newyorker.com