The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: Ryan Zinke’s Deregulation Quest, and the Future of Meatless Burgers

Date: February 6, 2018
Host: David Remnick
Guests: Elizabeth Kolbert, Bruce Friedrich, Shauna Lyon

Brief Overview

In this episode, host David Remnick explores two critical stories: first, an investigative discussion with Pulitzer Prize-winning writer Elizabeth Kolbert about Ryan Zinke, then-Secretary of the Interior, and his aggressive push for environmental deregulation; and second, the rise of meatless burgers, featuring food editor Shauna Lyon and Bruce Friedrich of The Good Food Institute, with a taste test of the Impossible Burger. The episode weaves together policy, environmental impact, culture, and innovation in food, offering insight and humor.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ryan Zinke’s Deregulation of Public Lands

Guest: Elizabeth Kolbert ([04:00]–[14:32])

Zinke’s Background and Shift in Policy

• Military/Political Career: Zinke is a former Navy SEAL, Montana state legislator, and one-term U.S. congressman.
• Moderate to Deregulator: Initially seen as a moderate on public lands, he resisted proposals to turn federal land over to states. As Secretary, he shifted to a more aggressive stance, favoring extractive industries over conservation.
  • “He was considered sort of a moderate on public lands issues, opposing some of the more… radical steps… He pushed back… and has now really fallen into line with this program of the Trump administration, which is basically just giving away as much public land as possible.” — Elizabeth Kolbert [04:28]

Specific Deregulation Moves

• Offshore Drilling: Recommendations to increase offshore drilling and open protected lands to mining.
• Reduction of National Monuments: Slashing the size of large monuments like Bears Ears, opening lands for extraction.
• Coal Mining: Overturning moratoriums on new coal leases; actions likely to be challenged in courts but started immediately.
• Plastic Bottles in National Parks: Reversal of an Obama-era effort to ban single-use plastics in parks, a move seen as regressive.
  • “One of the first things that the Trump administration did under pressure from the bottled water industry was to lift that ban.” — Elizabeth Kolbert [05:46]

The Teddy Roosevelt Comparison and Symbolism

• Zinke’s self-presentation as a latter-day Teddy Roosevelt is widely mocked, as his policies contradict Roosevelt’s conservation efforts.
  • “He seems to have gone totally into all exploitation, all the time mode, and many groups… actively make fun of his claims to be a modern day… Teddy Roosevelt.” — Elizabeth Kolbert [08:18]
• Symbolic gestures include installing a “Big Buck Hunter” arcade game in the Department of Interior and raising a flag when present in office, both signaling a cultural shift.
  • “When the Secretary is in the Interior Department’s offices… they raise a flag to indicate that he is there.” — Elizabeth Kolbert [10:02]

Climate Change and Science Suppression

• Removal of climate change mentions from reports and websites, suppression of scientific discussion within the Department of the Interior.
  • “They’ve just eliminated a lot of discussion on their websites and in federal reports… they put out a strategic report for the Interior Department for five years that did not mention climate change.” — Elizabeth Kolbert [10:29]
• Described as “Orwellian” ([10:29]) and tied to fossil fuel industry interests motivated by short-term gains.

Long-term Impact and Checks on Power

• Concern that new fossil fuel infrastructure will be entrenched and difficult to remove.
  • “Once you put a rig in, once you lease that land offshore, you can’t take it back… Because once you put in a pipeline… there’s tremendous inertia… that is exactly, exactly what we don’t want to be doing.” — Elizabeth Kolbert [11:20]
• Hopes placed on legal challenges and court delays, but acknowledges much damage may be irreversible.
  • “A lot of them… will be challenged in the courts and hopefully stayed… But… once you muck up these places, there’s no longer any reason to preserve them.” — Elizabeth Kolbert [13:31], [14:13]

2. The Future of Meatless Burgers: The Impossible Burger Taste Test

Host: David Remnick with Shauna Lyon and Bruce Friedrich ([15:35]–[22:41])

The Environmental Case for Eating Less Meat

• Shauna Lyon notes only about 3% of Americans are vegetarian, despite the clear environmental downsides of meat: land and water use, antibiotics, pollution ([14:36]).
• The food industry is racing to create plant-based options that rival meat in taste and appeal.

Personal Experience and Changing Burgers

• Remnick shares past experience with bland veggie burgers, but expresses curiosity about the new generation’s taste.
  • “They were the kind that were out of a box. They were frozen, they were dry and sad and gray… Then I heard about a new kind of veggie burger called the Impossible burger… looks a lot like a meat burger and… tastes a lot like a meat burger. It also bleeds like a meat burger.” — David Remnick [15:35]

How the Impossible Burger Works

• Key ingredient: “heme,” a plant-derived iron compound created via fermentation, giving the burger a meaty, iron flavor ([18:05]).
• Other ingredients: wheat protein, coconut oil, potato protein.

Cultural and Habitual Inertia

• Friedrich, a plant-based meat expert, comments on the challenge of changing eating habits.
  • “The vast majority of people, they’re just too busy leading their lives… you’ve been doing something for 20 or 50 or 70 years and it’s just what you do and suddenly somebody’s saying, no, you should do something different. That’s a pretty big ask.” — Bruce Friedrich [19:18]

Taste Test and Reactions

• Remnick describes the Impossible Burger’s look (“thin, charred on the edges”) and taste (“same consistency and texture as a regular burger,” but “a little bit bland,” lacking some iron flavor) ([20:27]-[20:44]).
  • “It has the same consistency and texture as a regular burger. The flavor is a little bit bland, missing… that deep, like, iron flavor that you get.” — David Remnick [20:27]
• Despite his slight disappointment, he prefers it over turkey burgers: “Turkey burgers are terrible.” — David Remnick [20:49]

The Tipping Point Analogy

• Friedrich compares the current moment to the shift from horses to cars, predicting plant-based and “clean” meats can disrupt animal agriculture and help avert climate catastrophe ([21:02]-[22:12]).
  • “I’m absolutely convinced that’s what plant based meat and clean meat represent. Because industrial animal agriculture, it is going to bring on climate catastrophe.” — Bruce Friedrich [21:10]

Remnick’s Final Reflection

• Skeptical but hopeful — acknowledges veggie burgers alone aren’t a panacea but sees value if they help move choices incrementally.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On deregulation and loss of wild land:
  “But the destruction of the country’s last unspoiled places is a loss that can never be reversed.” — Shauna Lyon [12:55]

• On the environmental urgency:
  “We do not want to be putting any more fossil fuel infrastructure in. We need to be shifting really dramatically in the other direction.” — Elizabeth Kolbert [11:20]

• On plant-based burgers as incremental change:
  “If one person goes vegetarian, that is the same as two people cutting back by half. But it’s probably going to be a lot easier to get two people to cut back by half than to get one person to go completely vegetarian.” — Bruce Friedrich [17:38]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:00] – Zinke’s background and political trajectory
• [05:16] – Deregulatory measures outlined, immediate effects discussed
• [06:40] – Plastic bottle ban reversal
• [08:18] – Teddy Roosevelt comparison and criticism
• [10:29] – Climate change denial within the administration
• [11:20] – Fossil fuel infrastructure and “facts on the ground”
• [13:31] – Legal challenges and irreversible loss
• [15:35] – Environmental rationale for meatless diets
• [16:21] – Impossible Burger introduced and tasted
• [18:05] – Technical explanation of the Impossible Burger (heme)
• [21:02] – Analogy to horses/cars; plant-based disruption
• [22:12] – Remnick’s reflection and episode wrap-up

Tone & Style

The episode balances incisive reporting and gently humorous, conversational interaction. Elizabeth Kolbert offers sharp criticism with dry wit; Remnick shows curiosity and skepticism; Bruce Friedrich is enthusiastic and persuasive about plant-based innovation.

Summary

This episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour illuminates the urgent battle over the future of America’s wild places under Zinke’s Interior Department, revealing how current deregulatory fervor may lead to losses that cannot be undone. The second half offers a hopeful yet realistic look at the food revolution, taste-testing next-gen veggie burgers and considering the power—and limits—of dietary change. Both segments underscore the high stakes and choices shaping the environment and culture today.