David Remnick (3:01)

Do you worry that there's any scenario in which a third party candidate could have a historic negative in many people's minds? Scenario, as with Ralph Nader, affecting things in a way that led to something that you came to hate, like the Iraq war?

Gary Johnson (3:20)

Well, I think a wasted vote is voting for somebody that you don't believe in. And given the fact that these are the two most polarizing figures of all time and space that have ever run from the two major parties in the same race, no, I don't lose any sleep over that one.

David Remnick (3:37)

Governor, since the path to winning is hugely dependent on getting to the debates and then performing in the debates. When you imagine yourself as a third party on a stage with Donald Trump the Republican, and Hillary Clinton as the Democrat, how do you imagine that debate going and how in your mind and how it goes well for you? Why would you.

Gary Johnson (4:00)

Well, I hope I don't intimidate the two of them too much. You know, having been governor of New Mexico for two terms, having more executive experience than the two of them, I just, you know, not to fear, I'm not gonna throw rocks. I'll leave that for others. But I would really like to talk about.

David Remnick (4:20)

And where would the avenues of attack or avenues of explanation be? What? I'm having a difficult time, Governor, is latching onto the one or two big themes in your campaign in terms of policy, and I'd like to tease that out.

Gary Johnson (4:36)

Well, smaller government that we would be proposing a balanced budget. To propose a balanced budget, you have to reform the entitlements. You can't do that without reforming the entitlements, Medicaid and Medicare. Social Security is headed for a fiscal cliff. So there's reform to Social Security, not cutting it, but reform so that it is around in the future. And then you can't balance the federal budget unless you're going to actually cut the military.

David Remnick (5:03)

So tell me how to reform Medicare and Medicaid. People tend to like the benefits that they do have once they become part of the culture. What are the specifics on how you would lower costs on Medicare and Medicaid? Would you change the ages? I mean, how would you deal with Social Security to stabilize it?

Gary Johnson (5:22)

Well, you are talking about potentially regarding Social Security. I do believe that the retirement age needs to get raised.

David Remnick (5:31)

To what?

Gary Johnson (5:32)

Well, by. To what? Look, I'm not getting elected king or dictator here. I'm looking to get elected president of the United States. That has constitutional limits. So I either get to support or not support what comes out of Congress. I would recommend raising the retirement age. 72 seems like a good starting point with regard to Medicaid and Medicare. I believe that Medicaid has to devolve to the states.

David Remnick (6:01)

Would you roll back Obamacare, as some people on the Republican side of the aisle have urged?

Gary Johnson (6:06)

Well, I think the cat is out of the box. But when it comes to reforming our health care system, I think what is needed is a free market approach to health care. And I'll just add that health care is as far removed from free market as it possibly can be.

David Remnick (6:25)

Is there a free market medical system somewhere in the world that you admire?

Gary Johnson (6:29)

I don't. I can't think of a single one.

David Remnick (6:31)

You've been honest about and funny about in both the New Yorker piece about you by Ryan Liz and many other venues about smoking marijuana and eating edibles. The last time you got high was with a Chiba chew. Ryan Lizzo reports, a Colorado brand that High Times once called America's favorite edible. And yet you've sworn off now and I wonder why. You know, Barack Obama certainly ends a working day very often with a martini or two. Why do you feel duty bound to do that?

Gary Johnson (7:10)

Well, the whole notion of inbound missiles, you got 12 minutes to deal with that. I have never advocated being on the job impaired. And running for president is a 247 job. And being president is a 247 job. You know, I haven't had a drink of alcohol in 29 years. That had to do with being the best that I could be. My whole life is about health and wellness and fitness, and I take great pride in it. So I hope when it comes to my admission that the last time I consumed marijuana was three months ago, I hope more than anything that people would just recognize that here's a guy who tells the truth. And if you tell the truth, you know, it's really hard to do harm to somebody who's telling the truth, regardless of the consequences.

David Remnick (8:00)

You've been very bold and direct about declaring the war on drugs in general a gigantic failure. What policy direction would you take as president regarding drugs beyond marijuana?

Gary Johnson (8:14)

Well, I have always, I have never advocated anything but the legalization of marijuana. I think when we legalize marijuana, when the whole country comes to have that pass, I think we're going to take a giant leap as a nation and understand first and foremost that drugs are a health issue rather than a criminal justice issue. And if we start looking at harm reduction strategies and by that reducing Death, disease, crime, corruption, the things that we genuinely care about, that we will actually accomplish that.

David Remnick (8:54)

What's the path to accomplishing that? I think many people have said what you've said, but when it comes to a full medicalization and legalization path, as we've seen in some countries, it's a very, very rocky road.

Gary Johnson (9:09)

Well, just take an example of. And here I'm sitting in Burlington. But if Burlington wanted to deal with a heroin overdose epidemic, and I don't know what the heroin situation here is.

David Remnick (9:23)

In Burlington, it's horrendous in Vermont, well.

Gary Johnson (9:26)

Okay, so how do you do?

David Remnick (9:27)

But in New England generally, it's been terrible.

Gary Johnson (9:29)

Well, it's everywhere. I mean, that's a situation everywhere. Well, if communities really genuinely cared about that. And look, this is not a federal government issue, but if communities really cared about it, they'd set up a clinic. A clinic for testing of heroin. Bring your heroin in, you're not going to get arrested. Bring your heroin in and we'll test it to tell you whether or not it's going to kill you or not. And that would be a harm reduction strategy.

David Remnick (9:57)

Governor, I'm a little confused on your anti gun control views. In the wake of the mass shooting in Orlando where 49 people were killed, you had said that Americans would be safer if guns were more readily available, not more restricted. Now, I'm a little unclear why you think this is the case. I understand your support of the second Amendment and your interpretation of it, but we should even be selling guns to people who are on terrorist watch lists. I mean, can regulation play a role here?

Gary Johnson (10:28)

So, David, I'm not sure where you got this. People should have more guns.

David Remnick (10:33)

USA Today.

Gary Johnson (10:34)

Pardon me, USA Today. No, no, no. I have no doubt that you're quoting something, but I don't think I've ever advocated. Look, everybody should have more guns. A situation like Orlando. I hope everybody paid attention to what happened in Orlando. I hope all the nightclub owners in the country were paying attention to the fact that all the doors were padlocked.

David Remnick (10:56)

Okay, but I don't think you're arguing that egress in and out of the the nightclub was the question. We're talking about the ready availability of weapons. That one would think should be limited. I would think, and maybe we obviously disagree to a field of war.

Gary Johnson (11:13)

Let's talk for a second about semiautomatic rifles. That's a category of rifle that there are over 30 million of them in this country. And if you're going to make those criminal, I think you're gonna have a whole new criminal class of people that aren't gonna turn in those weapons.

David Remnick (11:30)

Do you think it's a good thing that those guns are available?

Gary Johnson (11:33)

Well, they are available. It's semi automatic rifle. There are no.

David Remnick (11:36)

Okay, but you're running for president. What's your position on whether they should be or not? This is a hot debate in American politics.

Gary Johnson (11:42)

Should be or not. We should be allowed to exercise our Second amendment rights. David. Which would be the ability to own a semiautomatic rifle.

David Remnick (11:53)

So it's okay. So that's your position?

Gary Johnson (11:55)

Yes.

David Remnick (11:56)

Should teachers, for example, is it a good idea for teachers?

Gary Johnson (11:59)

I'm not gonna tell teachers whether or not they should have a gun or not. Come on, man.

David Remnick (12:04)

No, not come on, man.

Gary Johnson (12:05)

It's a question of come on, man.

David Remnick (12:08)

Is it a good idea for a teacher to have it in classrooms, as has been suggested many times before, if.

Gary Johnson (12:14)

A teacher would deem that to avail the classroom of potentially being secure, or if the teacher were to deem that something that within their own purview, they might prevent an atrocity if it were to occur, I would support the teacher in wanting to be able to do that.

David Remnick (12:35)

Okay. There's one form of government that I'm not sure of your attitude toward. You are a committed environmentalist, as I understand it, and you also support the epa, the Environmental Protection Agency, so far as I understand it. Isn't that another form of big government? It certainly is to some on the right.

Gary Johnson (12:56)

Well, government is. If anyone believes that there isn't a 20% largesse in government, we're not on the same page. That said, I do think that the EPA comes under the fundamental heading of protecting us and that government exists to protect us against individuals, groups, corporations, foreign governments that would do us harm. And I put pollution in the category of harm. And having been governor of New Mexico, but for the federal epa, there would still be a major polluter existing in northern New Mexico that because they refused to clean up as governor, I was able to designate them as a Superfund site, which was about the heaviest anvil that I had to. That I had in my bag.

David Remnick (13:48)

Governor, politics apart, what would you say is the most formative experience in your life had helped shape who you are?

Gary Johnson (13:58)

Well, I think it's a unique combination of being an entrepreneur and an athlete. And then my family. I mean, it' sand that's no different than most people, but that has focused my life. I'm an optimistic. I'm an optimistic character. I'm somebody who recognizes that failure is a part of everyday life. And it's ultimately how you deal with failure that determines success.

David Remnick (14:24)

Did you have a failure that was formative to you?

Gary Johnson (14:27)

Well, growing my business from a one person handyman me to a thousand employees, I have to tell you that along the way, death was not worse than the life I was living, which was just keeping up with cash flow and growth. And the failure and the, you know, it was not easy. It was not easy. It was incredibly hard work. And, you know, like so many, I survived and went on to what I'll call great success.

David Remnick (15:06)

Governor, are there a few books that you could say that encapsulate your philosophy of either governing or of life itself?

Gary Johnson (15:15)

You know, Ayn Rand, I love the Fountainhead. I love Atlas Shrugged, I do read. But those are a couple of books that I think from a philosophical standpoint, I really, I think Fountainhead is my favorite book.

David Remnick (15:35)

Governor, thank you very much.

Gary Johnson (15:37)

Thank you very much.

Narrator (15:42)

That's David Remnick with Gary Johnson, the Libertarian Party's presidential nominee. The complete story will be part of our September 3rd episode.