The Breeders on Sexism, Drugs, and Rock and Roll

Summary

The New Yorker Radio Hour: “The Breeders on Sexism, Drugs, and Rock and Roll”

Date: May 22, 2018
Host: David Remnick
Guests: Kim Deal, Kelly Deal, Josephine Wiggs, Jim McPherson (The Breeders)

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Overview

This episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour features an in-depth, candid conversation with all four original members of The Breeders: Kim Deal, Kelly Deal, Josephine Wiggs, and Jim McPherson. Host David Remnick explores the band’s turbulent history, creative process, experiences with drugs, perspectives on misogyny in the music industry, and what it’s like for them to continue making music together decades after their pivotal ’90s run. The band also performs live in the studio.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reuniting and Aging in Rock

• The Experience of Touring Again

  • The conversation begins with Remnick asking how it feels to play together again, but not as 23-year-olds ([02:19]).
    • Kelly (E): Jokes that at 23 she was working for a defense contractor, not in a band ([02:37]).
    • Josephine (A): Offers a dark analogy: compares reuniting to a woman blinded by acid by her lover, who, years later, perceives him as unchanged—implying the timelessness and strange continuity of the band’s chemistry ([03:11]).

• Nostalgia vs. Now

  • Remnick: “But it’s not a nostalgia trip because you have a new album” ([04:15]).
    • The band agrees; it’s about making new music, not just reliving old glories.

2. Getting the Original Band Back Together

• Kelly (E): Describes the origin of the reunion: on her couch in Dayton in 2012, she suggested reuniting for the 20th anniversary of Last Splash ([05:01]).
• Kim (C): Explains past tensions, especially between her and Jim—mainly related to issues with drinking on tour ([05:33]).
• Josephine (A): Shares that working solo in film music left her missing the energy and collaborative chemistry of being in a band ([06:32]).

3. The Reality of Being in a Band

• Rock & Roll Fantasy vs. Reality
  • Remnick expresses his fantasy of playing huge shows; the band playfully dispels the myth ([08:31]):
    • Kelly (E), Josephine (A), Kim (C): Emphasize that the real joy is in the process, not the performance. The best moments are the breakthroughs during rehearsal, not fame or crowd size ([09:11], [09:51]).
    • Quote:
      • Kelly: “That is so not what being in a band is about. It’s about everything but that performance.” ([09:16])
      • Kim: “My favorite moments are in the basement…that to me is really the place I like to be.” ([09:51])

4. Drugs, Survival, and Band Dynamics

• Admitting the Toll of Substance Abuse

  • Remnick addresses the band’s openness about drugs/alcohol ([10:37]).
  • Kim (C), Kelly (E): Affirm they feel like they “dodged a bullet,” especially as they see many from their generation dying ([10:55], [10:57]).
  • Kelly (E): “Heroin addicts are really boring people. Their world is very, very tiny…” ([11:19])

• Impact on Music and Relationships

  • Kim (C): Early Pixies days were fueled only by Jolt Cola; the destructive effects of drug use weren’t present at first but worsened over time ([11:55], [12:14]).
    • “There was a time...where, you know, just getting super baked...it’s actually really destructive.” ([12:34])
  • Josephine (A): Admits drug culture is why she stopped playing with them: “I couldn’t stand it...it’s not fun to be around people who are so absent” ([12:50], [12:56]).
  • Kim (C): Clarifies it wasn’t always chaotic/destructive in public, but there was emotional absence ([13:23]).

• Rock & Roll Myths

  • A light moment: Kelly and Nirvana’s Krist Novoselic once threw a TV out a hotel window—with permission ([13:41]).
  • “It was the most adorable, sweet rock and roll fantasy...done with such heart and joy and fun.” ([14:04])

5. The Alienating Life of Touring

• Lollapalooza
  • Josephine (A): Found the marathon festival tours alienating and grueling, feeling trapped and unable to escape party culture ([15:11], [15:26]).
  • Kelly (E): Enjoyed it because for her, it was “so much fun”—highlighting their very different coping mechanisms ([15:13]).

6. Sexism and Representation in the Music Industry

• The Persistent Gender Gap

  • Remnick notes how rare it was and still is to see gender parity in bands ([15:46], [16:07]).
  • Kim (C): “Misogyny was the backbone of the music business” ([16:25]).
    • Shares how media continually frames “women in rock” as a resurgence or theme, not a norm ([16:32]).
    • “Women don’t get covered. So there’s the appearance that women aren’t in music.” ([17:03])
  • Discusses the Grammys and Neil Portnow’s infamous comment that “women need to step up,” countering that the real issue is systemic lack of representation ([17:25]).

• Systemic Loops and Media Responsibility

  • Festivals wait for media to cover women artists, but without festival slots women get little media—“It’s just a loop...it’s a catch-22...it’s systemic” ([18:10], [18:45], [18:54]).

• Performance and Gender Expectations

  • Remnick: Cites Amanda Petrusich’s observation that Kim “hasn’t done any of the things that we expect girls to do on stage” ([19:06]).
  • Kim (C): Affirms it wasn’t a conscious rebellion; she just didn’t feel those behaviors were authentic for her ([19:32]).
    • Frustration with being reduced to “just a smile” on stage: “I can’t believe that somebody...sounded like a cinch. And all I did was just sit there and smile...It just—wow.” ([20:54], [21:37])

• Quote:

  • Kim: “I was in the middle of a show...all I did was smile and [the crowd] clapped. Who knows why. You’re really really stirring up a lot of stuff right now. I’m really angry.” ([22:04], [22:18])
  • Kelly: “It’s not discounting my years of work, toil, and everything that got [me here].” ([21:45])

7. Personal Loss and Aging

• Dealing with Family and Alzheimer’s

  • Remnick asks about Kim and Kelly’s mother, who is in late-stage Alzheimer’s ([22:19], [23:09]).
  • Kim (C): Describes the good system of care, and the existential realization that not even memories are guaranteed as we age:
    • “At least I’ll have my memories. And then seeing her lose them all, I think, wow, that’s not even gonna happen.” ([23:34])

• Legacy, Family, and Humor

  • Remnick asks what memories Kim would want at the end ([24:05]).
  • Kim (C), joking: “I’d like to say the smile of my child and my husband’s firm hands...[but] I’m not married and I don’t have any children. I had a cat I liked—he died a couple years ago.” ([24:05], [24:14], [24:26])

8. Fame, Integrity, and “Cashing In”

• Kelly (E), Kim (C): Joke that they’re open to “cashing in,” but don’t know how, and laugh about legendary advice to “get a jewel-encrusted bustier,” skewering commodified femininity in music ([24:43], [25:27]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Description | |-----------|----------------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:11 | Josephine (A) | “For her, because she’s blind, they’re the same as they were 30 years ago.” (on how bands reunite)| | 09:16 | Kelly (E) | “That is so not what being in a band is about. It’s about everything but that performance.” | | 11:19 | Kelly (E) | “Heroin addicts are really boring people. Their world is very, very tiny...” | | 12:34 | Kim (C) | “There was a time...just getting super baked...it’s actually really destructive.” | | 14:04 | Kelly (E) | “[Throwing a hotel TV out the window] was the most adorable, sweet rock and roll fantasy…” | | 16:25 | Kim (C) | “Misogyny was the backbone of the music business.” | | 17:03 | Kim (C) | “Women don’t get covered. So there’s the appearance that women aren’t in music.” | | 18:54 | Kim (C) | “It is systemic, and it’s a continuing thing...it’s eating itself...” | | 21:37 | Kim (C) | “I can’t believe that somebody...sounded like a cinch. And all I did was just sit there and smile...”| | 24:26 | Kim (C) | “I had a cat I liked. He died a couple years ago.” | | 25:27 | Kim (C) | “[On ‘cashing in’] You need a jewel-encrusted bustier and some big chunky silver earrings and some makeup too.” |

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Key Timestamps

• 02:19 – Discussion on returning to touring and what it feels like not to be 23 anymore
• 05:01 – Recounting the origins of their reunion for the Last Splash anniversary
• 09:11 – The reality of being in a band vs. audience/host fantasies
• 10:37 – Addressing drugs and alcohol, impact on life and music
• 16:25 – Discussion on misogyny and systemic gender imbalance in music
• 19:06 – Kim’s on-stage persona and resistance to gender norms
• 22:19 – Personal struggles: Kim and Kelly’s mother and Alzheimer’s
• 24:43 – Joking about “selling out” and commercial pressures on women in music

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Tone & Language

The episode is candid, warm, witty, and sometimes darkly funny. The tone alternates between irreverent and deeply serious, reflecting the personalities of The Breeders and their rapport with David Remnick. The language is colloquial, direct, and full of dry humor, with frequent cross-talk and affectionate interruptions among band members.

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Summary for New Listeners

This episode moves far beyond a band reunion interview. It delves into the inner workings and fractures of The Breeders, paints a nuanced picture of the music industry’s often-hidden sexism, and offers raw honesty about addiction, aging, and creative life. The Breeders’ banter is as sharp as their music, and their insights make this conversation essential listening for anyone interested in indie rock, feminist perspectives in music, or the reality behind the mythology of rock and roll.

Transcript

[A]

This is Rural Train One World Observatory.

[B]

Observatory. Straight up the block to West Boulevard and make that right. They didn't break that, but they have.

[C]

Pretty good access to those people.

[B]

Subconsciously mocks that lineage. So that's happening. It seems like an incredible story here on many fronts.

[D]

From one World Trade center in Manhattan, this is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

[B]

Hi, I'm David.

[E]

Hi, David. I'm Kelly.

[C]

Thank you. It's nice to meet you.

[E]

Thanks for having us.

[B]

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnant. I've never made it much of a secret that if I had my druthers, like a lot of other people, I'd be pretty happy playing guitar for a living. But it ain't gonna happen. Nevertheless, it's a huge thrill for me to have one of the most exciting bands of recent decades come on the show. The Breeders. The Breeders helped define the sound of rock and roll in the 90s. Kim Deal had played bass in the Pixies, and to form a new band, she recruited her sister, a drummer she knew from Ohio and an English woman she'd met on tour. And 25 years ago, they put out Last Splash, an album of insistent yet melodic punk. They toured with Nirvana, who were their fans. But there were miserable tours, too. Battles with drugs, fights, defections and side projects. Although the songs lived on in the canon of indie rock, it seemed like the Breeders moment had come and gone. This year, though, the original members are back together and they've released a new album called Ol Nerve. Kim Deal, her twin sister Kelly Deal, bassist Josephine Wiggs, and drummer Jim McPherson joined me in the studio to play some songs off the new record. I've got to ask you, as somebody whose singular dream growing up was not to have anything to do with a magazine, but to be in a rock and roll band, what's it like to not be 23 and in a band and together again and touring? After the long history you've had, it must be.

[F]

What?

[C]

There's a couple of questions in there. What's it like not to be 23? That's a question.

[B]

I already know the answer.

[C]

What's it like to still be in a band with these particular people? And how do I feel about the stretch of time?

[E]

I have a great answer.

[A]

No, I've got a great answer. You go ahead first.

[E]

Okay, this is Kelly. My first answer is, When I was 23, I was working for a defense contractor. So that question, kind of parts of it just kind of Slide right by me. Go ahead, Jo.

[A]

Well, my answer might be a little dark.

[E]

Oh, good.

[C]

What a surprise.

[A]

Do you know. Do you remember that film, documentary about the couple? I think they lived in Queens where I think she was a model and her boyfriend became extremely jealous of her and threw acid in her face. Do you remember that? And she was blinded.

[B]

This is not gonna end well.

[A]

And.

[E]

No.

[A]

Well, it depends how you look at it. And then later in life, like 30 years later or something, they met again and they were married. And the thing about it is that. The thing about it is that for her, because she's blind, they're the same as they were 30 years ago.

[B]

Kim, you're laughing because you understand or you don't understand. Do you agree or disagree?

[C]

It makes complete sense to me. Yes. Yes. That she would just miss over the part of. So we were the people who threw the acid in your face.

[E]

So it's just like the passion that they had then was still there and so no time had passed or something.

[A]

No, it's the passion for her, the psychopathy for her. She's not old.

[C]

So you're disillusioned, you're delusional enough to.

[A]

Think it's like a chance to go backwards. You know what I mean?

[E]

And you.

[A]

Well, not backwards. It's a chance to relive things, but thank God.

[B]

But it's not a nostalgia trip because you have a new album.

[A]

No, it's not.

[B]

It's a terrific new album, and it feels consistent with what you were. But something new, that's really rare. How did you come to get back together? Because, in fact, if you look at old interviews of the Beatles, for example, at any given moment after they broke up, one would be in favor of it, but two were against it. And then three would be in favorite and one's against it. So it never quite happened. And then tragedy occurred. Life occurred. How did it happen that you all agreed all at once?

[E]

This is Kelly again. Kim was visiting me over at my house on the couch. And my house is not on a couch, by the way. We happen to be on a couch.

[B]

You're a stickler for grammar. And your house is where?

[E]

In Dayton, Ohio. Yeah. And she came over to visit, and I was just sitting there, and it was 2012, and I was like, you know, next year, 2013 is gonna be the 20th anniversary of last Splash. And you know how bands are kind of celebrating. I thought, wouldn't it be fun if we just called Jim and Joe and just did a couple, like, shows where we did the Album from, you know, track one to the very last track, and just did the whole album.

[C]

And I said, yeah, you get ahold of Jim, I'll get ahold of Joe. Because me and Jim were mad at each.

[B]

Why were you mad at each other?

[C]

Well, we. After the Breeders last Splash, me and Jim carried on and we started a band together called the Amps. And there was. It devolved a bit.

[B]

You're making a drinking motion with your hand, I see. Yeah. Truth in advertising.

[C]

And honestly, when we got back from that tour, Jim, in like, 96, I went downstairs to my basement and all his drums were out of the basement. And I thought, oh, my God, what did I say to Jim? And we hadn't talked from 2006, Jim or 7.

[B]

Jim, you want to kick in here? What did she say to really piss you off? It was a big black blur. I see. So the drinking was a serious thing?

[C]

Well, at the time. Not just that time. Right then that tour was something else. So anyway, I forgot what. We were talking.

[B]

Getting back together.

[E]

Getting back together. And you guys didn't chat, and you.

[C]

Asked Jim, and he said he'd love to do it. And I asked Joe and she said she'd love to do it.

[A]

I was doing music for film. I did music for a couple of feature films and doing more kind of ambient music and stuff like that, and doing a lot of recording on my own. But it's really different being in a band. Doing music with a band and playing in a rock band is really different. And as soon as we got back together again, I was like, oh, I actually really miss this. I really miss being on stage and making a really loud noise and playing with loud drums and. And playing a rock show.

[B]

The new album is called All Nerve, so let's listen to the title track.

[F]

I wanna see you especially. You don't know how much I miss you.

[C]

Aha.

[F]

I may be high, I may hide and rat at you. You don't know how much I miss you. I won't stop, I'll run you down.

[B]

What does the title phrase mean? Ulnar.

[C]

I mean, I think, of course, it can mean many things, but what I embrace about it is the idea that. Just hopelessly delusional, just absolutely a break, a psychotic break from reality. I mean, it's so sad when somebody believes something so much and it's not true. And I feel like I've had like that before.

[F]

I won't stop.

[B]

I want to know because I've never experienced it, and it just seems like possibly the best thing you can do. Playing in front of a big crowd, playing the music that you love and having that all come together in this way that nights like that can be. What is that like?

[E]

I don't know. I think the idea. It's funny that you're. You can tell you have a rock and roll fantasy going, don't you?

[B]

I do.

[C]

I love it. It is adorable.

[B]

Who doesn't?

[E]

It is adorable.

[B]

Who doesn't? Who doesn't?

[A]

We don't.

[E]

We don't.

[B]

That's.

[E]

Cause you do it.

[B]

It's your job.

[E]

I guess part of that is there's.

[A]

A really big difference between the rock and roll fantasy and the reality.

[E]

That's not actually what being in a band is about.

[A]

No, it's really not.

[C]

It's not.

[E]

Yeah. That is so not what being in a band is about. It's about everything but that performance.

[C]

That's accidental.

[E]

I mean, that is. That is. I mean, what. It doesn't matter if it's 30 people or 300 or 30,000 or big huge festivals. It's that moment that it's all that, the indefinable stuff, the, you know, what is the space stuff, the space gunk. All the dark matter that happens on.

[B]

Stage, just you four and the crowd doesn't matter so much.

[E]

Well, you do get energy from that sometimes.

[C]

My favorite moments are in the basement when the arc of a song. We've worked on this part and it hasn't been sounding good, and then somebody comes up with an idea where it's like, we do it. And then like, oh, yeah, that sounded good. That to me, is really the place that I like to be.

[A]

There are so many. And also, to go back to your point about your fantasy, David, about playing in front of 30,000 people, often we'll be on the way somewhere and we'll be like, oh, gosh, you know, it's like a really small venue and they've only sold half the tickets. Doesn't happen very often though, by the way. It's very rare. And we could get bummed out about that. But in actual fact, sometimes those are the best shows.

[B]

Now, you've made no secret, you guys especially, that you're acquaintance with drugs and alcohol was pretty intense. And do you feel like. Do you feel like you survived something?

[C]

I do.

[E]

Yeah, definitely.

[B]

Like you dodged a bullet.

[E]

Yeah. Especially now. People are just dropping like flies. It's crazy.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Where you live and everywhere, just in general.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

And do you find friends dying and people you know from the old neighborhood?

[E]

I don't. Not really. Because the friends that I have now, I don't really hang out with people who are using.

[B]

You know, it's too big a risk.

[E]

Well, risk. You know, heroin addicts are really boring people.

[A]

I consider them.

[E]

They are super boring. Their world is very, very tiny and they have a full time job that takes every second of their life up.

[B]

Getting drugs.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

And so having a chat or sitting or having a coff.

[C]

No.

[B]

What did it do to the music? When you were using, what did drugs do for the music or take away from the music? You've been pretty honest that it gave something to the music at times.

[C]

You know, when the Pixies first started playing, there was no smoking pot and drinking. You know, I remember us, Jolt Cola just came out and I remember us taking the weekend and in a studio and he had to really buckle down and finish all the tracks in one weekend. And we drank Joel Cola. Yeah.

[B]

I'm not talking about joke.

[C]

Awesome.

[A]

I know.

[E]

It's so adorable. I know.

[C]

I think it's like the rock and roll fantasy where there's an idea that it's been every moment and it's not. It's like it's basically a blackout, A party.

[E]

Yeah, yeah. No, but it's progressive. You know, the disease is progressive.

[C]

Yeah. And I think, I think like there was a time eventually where, you know, just getting super baked and on pot, you know, it's actually really destructive.

[A]

I have to tell you, this is why I stopped playing with them, because I couldn't stand it.

[B]

Because what was happening.

[A]

It's just not fun. It's not fun to be around people. People who are so absent. Like, you know, like Kelly was saying a minute ago.

[B]

So what attempt did you make?

[E]

Whether or not we're even, like we're having, you know, Black Jim was so.

[C]

Destroying and I wasn't doing. I mean, that's a little. It's a little misleading, I think, when you say that. Because you act like I was like crazed or something.

[A]

No, no.

[C]

I just mean that's what you're saying.

[A]

No, no, I'm saying home. Yeah.

[E]

Present. Present. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

In the way that you are now.

[E]

It's not like, you know, we're destroying dressing rooms or anything. It's not like that. No.

[B]

You're not throwing TVs into swimming pools. It's just. You're not doing it.

[E]

I actually did do that with Chris Novoselic.

[B]

You did not.

[E]

We did. It was so much fun and he was adorable. And we went up to the hotel room.

[B]

You know what you were on A high floor. And you did the TV into the swimming pool thing.

[E]

No, you have to listen how we did it.

[B]

Okay, I'm all ears.

[E]

So he goes, okay, I've never done this. Do you want to do it? So he called down to the front desk and he said, I want to throw a TV out the window.

[A]

Oh my God.

[E]

I would pay for the tv. And I just want to make sure everybody's safe, so can you. And so we did this thing and we organized it. It was the most adorable, sweet rock and roll fantasy. I wish you were there. You would have loved it. I would have loved it. How did I miss it? And it was done with such heart and joy and fun.

[B]

Will you call me the next time you do this?

[E]

Sure, sure. Definitely.

[B]

I really need this.

[E]

And so we carried it over and we had to make sure.

[C]

You know.

[E]

And then threw it out. It was super fun.

[A]

It's not going to be the same now though, is it? No, it's going to be throwing. Throwing a little thing. Yeah, it's like more like a frisky with a flat screen tv.

[B]

All kidding aside, you got fed up.

[A]

I.

[B]

You couldn't connect.

[A]

I think it was. It was largely Lollapalooza. It's. It was. Wasn't only. It was Lollapalooza I found very alienating tour.

[B]

Why?

[A]

Just because it went on for three months and we were often in the middle of. We would arrive in the middle of a field somewhere and band camp.

[E]

I loved it. It was so much fun.

[A]

That's because they were party. She was partying the whole time. Whereas if you're. I'm in a party and you were.

[B]

In your room reading Dickens or James.

[A]

We didn't have rooms. We were on the bus. And in fact, there was a little glimpse of.

[B]

So there's no escape.

[A]

Yeah. The music would start at 11 in the morning. There would be. Josephine is like a cat pounding, pounding a vegan cat music all day, every day. So you could never slip away and read a book, you know what I mean? It was kind of grueling, I found.

[B]

And why. And this always occurred to me, looking at bands as a kid and as I got older, I'm looking at bands one after the other after the other. It's all four guys. Five guys. Five guys and a woman singing. Very, very rarely did it break out at that mold. And when it did, it was a kind of a thing. There are bands that you could obviously name.

[E]

Are you talking back in the day or now still? Oh, no. There's a ton of bands.

[B]

But it's not by any stretch. 50 50.

[E]

Which genre are you talking about?

[A]

In almost any genre, it's 50 50. Nothing is 50 50, is it?

[B]

Kim, @ one point you said that misogyny was the backbone of the music business.

[C]

Yes, yes.

[B]

Still.

[C]

Well, it's interesting that you're talking about this because I've been going back and forth about the ideal of. I used to get it every six months I would get an interview lined up and the paper would say, we're running something on women in rock. The resurgence of women in rock. About the third year of me getting the fourth resurgence of women in rock, I begin to see, oh, there's not really a resurgence of women in rock. It's just a theme, it's a story. It's an angle for the newspaper to actually come up. Like, you know, salsa players, you know, or something like that. It's an idea. So that's another thing is like, is there a resurgence of women in rock? Has there been a Less. Here's what I've decided. Women don't get covered. So there's an appearance that women aren't in music. Just like that gentleman from the Grammys, Neil Portnoy or whatever his name is, who said that women really need to step up if they want to be represented in the Grammys. Not really understanding that he's not representing women in the Grammys, period. That was the problem. Not that we need to step up to be represented, but we just weren't being represented. So it's a little odd.

[B]

So it's the institutions that put these bands and performers and artists forward, whether it's the award show or the press or promoters or what have you.

[C]

For some reason, it's just this recurring thing, just like festivals now, supposedly festivals are getting a little bit better this much. Pitchfork just did an article. 2018 is this much better. They have a little bar graph and stuff like that.

[B]

You're holding your fingers about a quarter of an inch apart. Yes, yes.

[C]

Of the women performers compared with the male performances in the year of 2018 and 2017. So anyway, probably these festivals are saying, yeah, but these women don't get. We need media, artists, artists who are covered by the media to be on our festivals. So our festivals will get media and will get coverage. Of course, if you don't put them on the. It's just a loop that. It just. It's. I mean, I. I mean, do I have to explain it? Somebody else could probably.

[A]

It's a catch 22 is what she's Saying it's even.

[C]

It's even more than that. It's a. It's.

[B]

You're saying something worse than a catch 22, that it's systemic, and it extends from music to everywhere else.

[C]

It is systemic, and it's a continuing thing. It's. It doesn't seem like it's ever. It's just. It's eating itself and at that. Which is quite different than the backbone of the industry being misogynistic, which it is, by the way. But go ahead.

[B]

I want to ask you about your presence on stage, specifically. Amanda Petrusich, who writes for us, recently wrote this. Kim Deal hasn't done any of the things that we expect girls to do on stage. She never preened, confessed, flirted, demurred, or compromised. Was that a conscious thing on your part, how you come off and appear on stage the way you are in front of an audience?

[C]

Well, I think it's because I think if I, you know, wore. If I did those things, I would feel ridiculous. So I feel like I can't. Those aren't available for me to do. So. There's another thing, though, that I just saw that somebody brought up again, I think, in the. Lizzie Goodman just happened to bring this up in an article she just wrote. It's just something that Charles had been reported as saying that it was something I'm paraphrasing about, you know, somebody asking him whether, you know, there was problems with me or not and stuff like that. And he said, kim, all she would have to do is smile and the crowd would erupt in cheers. And he was saying so that, you know, like, you. Me too. Like you, probably. That, of course, that's going to kind of bother me.

[B]

You're talking there about Charles Thompson, who was Black Francis of the Pixies. What was he getting at?

[C]

All I had to do was smile. And the crowd was behind me. And I just think, how incredibly sexist to think, you know, I'm sweating. I'm gonna almost pass out with the heat. I just threw up a little bit in my mouth. The misogynistic tour driver did not go and pack, you know, get sanitary napkins. So I'm probably bleeding a little down my leg, right?

[E]

And.

[C]

Well, I'm absolutely. You know, I'm in this band who's, like, playing like I'm doing downstrokes, you know, really fast music. Exhausting. Like a bass player, you know. So it's a big instrument with a big amp and big noise. And at the same time, I have to find that the pitch of the song. Because I'm singing a melodic harmony on top of everything. So not only do I'm listening to the drummer with the rhythm, but also. But just because I make it look easy. I know I make it look easy. But the thing is, I can't believe that somebody like, all of that is happening sounded like a cinch. And all I did was just sit there and smile and the crowd was clapping. Cause I smiled. It's just like, wow.

[A]

Really?

[C]

That's all I was there. I just smiled. I wasn't doing anything else. It just. Does anybody think that's weird?

[E]

No, no, no, no. I totally understand how that would be. Like, you're not discounting my years of work, toil and everything that got.

[C]

Not only singing and pitch playing, but.

[E]

Like the years that you spent playing guitar, playing bass, writing songs, recording yourself, going to Radio Shack, buying the right cable, getting a soldering gun so you could fix this cable.

[C]

I was like, we were in the middle of a show. I'm sweating my. I just like. And all I did was smile. Just like. And they've clapped. Who knows why. You're really, really stirring up a lot of stuff right now. I'm really angry.

[B]

You're pissed, you're angry.

[C]

I'm just a little mad.

[B]

Sorry. I can see that. Laughing. Thank God you're on stage in front of a crowd. You make these terrific records, and then you go home and you face really ordinary tragedies that we all face. We all have something. Everybody's got something. And you too. Your mother is quite sick at this point. She has Alzheimer's. Who's caring for her? How do you carry that on the road with you? You live these kind of simultaneous lives. It must be extraordinarily difficult.

[C]

We have a great system. We have great caregivers. We have found a great place. They come in a few times a day and they make sure that she is not getting bed sores.

[B]

What stage is she in?

[C]

Late. Yeah, late.

[B]

Non vocal, nonverbal and very passive.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

How does this all figure into your work, into the record, into your songs, if at all?

[E]

You have a beautiful song on your solo series that kind of touches on that.

[C]

Yeah, it's online. It's beautiful.

[E]

There's a beautiful video that goes along with it.

[B]

What's the song?

[E]

It's called Are youe Mine?

[C]

You know what it got me thinking was, like, when I'm getting old and stuff, I think, oh, well, at least I'll have my memories. And then seeing her lose them all, I think, wow, that's not even gonna happen. I'm not gonna sit there and just imagine my, you know, just, you know, oh, that was so great. Think of that. Think of that. I'm doing things to cultivate this time where I'm gonna just think about back about my life and knowing that's all forced.

[B]

What memories would you want to be there to sustain you at the end?

[C]

I'd like to say the smile of my child and my husband's firm hands.

[B]

Should I point out the obvious here?

[C]

I'm not married and I don't have any children. I don't know. I had a cat I liked. He died a couple years ago.

[E]

Oh my God.

[C]

Have a beer.

[B]

No, I'm here now. You guys have integrity out the ears. Do you ever wish you had cashed in just a little bit more? Sold out a little bit more?

[C]

I'm open to cashing it. I just don't know.

[E]

I can't find the rope.

[B]

What would cashing it a bit look like?

[E]

I don't really know.

[A]

Retirement plan.

[B]

Ah.

[E]

What does cashing in look like?

[C]

I don't know. I think, you know, I used to go, what?

[E]

I can't wait to hear this.

[C]

She's covering your face. It's just again, it's a pixie scene. It was Dave Lovering's mother and she used to come backstage and she was from Massachusetts, you know, Boston. And she would say, what you need? She would see me and I would just be sweating. Mess, right, whatever. And she would say, you need a jewel encrusted bustier and some big chunky silver earrings and some makeup too.

[B]

That's a great idea.

[C]

The jewel encrusted bustier is the. I guess cashing in Madonna was popular at the time. And I think she must have had a jewel encrusted bustier.

[B]

Now I'm going to ask you to play for us. This has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much.

[C]

Thank you for having us. We've enjoyed it. Other than I'm slightly mad.

[B]

You don't seem slightly mad. I can tell you're flexing your muscle.

[E]

You're a good talker. I think it's a good thing that you're doing this for a living. You would be a drunken, strung out bum if you had had the rock and roll lifestyle. I could see it not.

[C]

Not playing well with you.

[B]

Give me a chance.

[E]

And you would be.

[B]

Give me a chance.

[E]

Egomaniac walking around.

[B]

Yes. That sounds fabulous.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[E]

So good.

[F]

I've laid the silent sun a thousand times. I'm on it. But I'm going strange? The silence chills and shall cover me with winded rock and skies I've yet to see? I tried? I even sent in friends? They did it as a favor? Cause I'm not that way? I am the autumn and the scarlet? I own the makeup on your eyes? I land a sail? Island sail? Yeah, we're moving. Yeah, we're moving. Sam I lay the silent sun A thousand times? Fortune me, fortune me? Of all of my mistakes? I think I let you now? Every slip of pink Seemed to come my way? But I've never seen a starlet or a riot or the violence of you?

[D]

The Breeders are Kim Deal, Kelly Deal, Josephine Wiggs and Jim McPherson. They played off youf Live at WNYC. Their new album's called All Nerve. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Alexis Cuadrado. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Churina Endowment Fund.

[F]

Yeah, we're moving. Yeah, we're moving. Island sail, island sail? Yeah, we're moving. Yeah, we're moving. Yeah, we're moving.