The New Yorker Radio Hour: “The Breeders on Sexism, Drugs, and Rock and Roll”

Date: May 22, 2018
Host: David Remnick
Guests: Kim Deal, Kelly Deal, Josephine Wiggs, Jim McPherson (The Breeders)

Overview

This episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour features an in-depth, candid conversation with all four original members of The Breeders: Kim Deal, Kelly Deal, Josephine Wiggs, and Jim McPherson. Host David Remnick explores the band’s turbulent history, creative process, experiences with drugs, perspectives on misogyny in the music industry, and what it’s like for them to continue making music together decades after their pivotal ’90s run. The band also performs live in the studio.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reuniting and Aging in Rock

• The Experience of Touring Again

  • The conversation begins with Remnick asking how it feels to play together again, but not as 23-year-olds ([02:19]).
    • Kelly (E): Jokes that at 23 she was working for a defense contractor, not in a band ([02:37]).
    • Josephine (A): Offers a dark analogy: compares reuniting to a woman blinded by acid by her lover, who, years later, perceives him as unchanged—implying the timelessness and strange continuity of the band’s chemistry ([03:11]).

• Nostalgia vs. Now

  • Remnick: “But it’s not a nostalgia trip because you have a new album” ([04:15]).
    • The band agrees; it’s about making new music, not just reliving old glories.

2. Getting the Original Band Back Together

• Kelly (E): Describes the origin of the reunion: on her couch in Dayton in 2012, she suggested reuniting for the 20th anniversary of Last Splash ([05:01]).
• Kim (C): Explains past tensions, especially between her and Jim—mainly related to issues with drinking on tour ([05:33]).
• Josephine (A): Shares that working solo in film music left her missing the energy and collaborative chemistry of being in a band ([06:32]).

3. The Reality of Being in a Band

• Rock & Roll Fantasy vs. Reality
  • Remnick expresses his fantasy of playing huge shows; the band playfully dispels the myth ([08:31]):
    • Kelly (E), Josephine (A), Kim (C): Emphasize that the real joy is in the process, not the performance. The best moments are the breakthroughs during rehearsal, not fame or crowd size ([09:11], [09:51]).
    • Quote:
      • Kelly: “That is so not what being in a band is about. It’s about everything but that performance.” ([09:16])
      • Kim: “My favorite moments are in the basement…that to me is really the place I like to be.” ([09:51])

4. Drugs, Survival, and Band Dynamics

• Admitting the Toll of Substance Abuse

  • Remnick addresses the band’s openness about drugs/alcohol ([10:37]).
  • Kim (C), Kelly (E): Affirm they feel like they “dodged a bullet,” especially as they see many from their generation dying ([10:55], [10:57]).
  • Kelly (E): “Heroin addicts are really boring people. Their world is very, very tiny…” ([11:19])

• Impact on Music and Relationships

  • Kim (C): Early Pixies days were fueled only by Jolt Cola; the destructive effects of drug use weren’t present at first but worsened over time ([11:55], [12:14]).
    • “There was a time...where, you know, just getting super baked...it’s actually really destructive.” ([12:34])
  • Josephine (A): Admits drug culture is why she stopped playing with them: “I couldn’t stand it...it’s not fun to be around people who are so absent” ([12:50], [12:56]).
  • Kim (C): Clarifies it wasn’t always chaotic/destructive in public, but there was emotional absence ([13:23]).

• Rock & Roll Myths

  • A light moment: Kelly and Nirvana’s Krist Novoselic once threw a TV out a hotel window—with permission ([13:41]).
  • “It was the most adorable, sweet rock and roll fantasy...done with such heart and joy and fun.” ([14:04])

5. The Alienating Life of Touring

• Lollapalooza
  • Josephine (A): Found the marathon festival tours alienating and grueling, feeling trapped and unable to escape party culture ([15:11], [15:26]).
  • Kelly (E): Enjoyed it because for her, it was “so much fun”—highlighting their very different coping mechanisms ([15:13]).

6. Sexism and Representation in the Music Industry

• The Persistent Gender Gap

  • Remnick notes how rare it was and still is to see gender parity in bands ([15:46], [16:07]).
  • Kim (C): “Misogyny was the backbone of the music business” ([16:25]).
    • Shares how media continually frames “women in rock” as a resurgence or theme, not a norm ([16:32]).
    • “Women don’t get covered. So there’s the appearance that women aren’t in music.” ([17:03])
  • Discusses the Grammys and Neil Portnow’s infamous comment that “women need to step up,” countering that the real issue is systemic lack of representation ([17:25]).

• Systemic Loops and Media Responsibility

  • Festivals wait for media to cover women artists, but without festival slots women get little media—“It’s just a loop...it’s a catch-22...it’s systemic” ([18:10], [18:45], [18:54]).

• Performance and Gender Expectations

  • Remnick: Cites Amanda Petrusich’s observation that Kim “hasn’t done any of the things that we expect girls to do on stage” ([19:06]).
  • Kim (C): Affirms it wasn’t a conscious rebellion; she just didn’t feel those behaviors were authentic for her ([19:32]).
    • Frustration with being reduced to “just a smile” on stage: “I can’t believe that somebody...sounded like a cinch. And all I did was just sit there and smile...It just—wow.” ([20:54], [21:37])

• Quote:

  • Kim: “I was in the middle of a show...all I did was smile and [the crowd] clapped. Who knows why. You’re really really stirring up a lot of stuff right now. I’m really angry.” ([22:04], [22:18])
  • Kelly: “It’s not discounting my years of work, toil, and everything that got [me here].” ([21:45])

7. Personal Loss and Aging

• Dealing with Family and Alzheimer’s

  • Remnick asks about Kim and Kelly’s mother, who is in late-stage Alzheimer’s ([22:19], [23:09]).
  • Kim (C): Describes the good system of care, and the existential realization that not even memories are guaranteed as we age:
    • “At least I’ll have my memories. And then seeing her lose them all, I think, wow, that’s not even gonna happen.” ([23:34])

• Legacy, Family, and Humor

  • Remnick asks what memories Kim would want at the end ([24:05]).
  • Kim (C), joking: “I’d like to say the smile of my child and my husband’s firm hands...[but] I’m not married and I don’t have any children. I had a cat I liked—he died a couple years ago.” ([24:05], [24:14], [24:26])

8. Fame, Integrity, and “Cashing In”

• Kelly (E), Kim (C): Joke that they’re open to “cashing in,” but don’t know how, and laugh about legendary advice to “get a jewel-encrusted bustier,” skewering commodified femininity in music ([24:43], [25:27]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Description | |-----------|----------------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:11 | Josephine (A) | “For her, because she’s blind, they’re the same as they were 30 years ago.” (on how bands reunite)| | 09:16 | Kelly (E) | “That is so not what being in a band is about. It’s about everything but that performance.” | | 11:19 | Kelly (E) | “Heroin addicts are really boring people. Their world is very, very tiny...” | | 12:34 | Kim (C) | “There was a time...just getting super baked...it’s actually really destructive.” | | 14:04 | Kelly (E) | “[Throwing a hotel TV out the window] was the most adorable, sweet rock and roll fantasy…” | | 16:25 | Kim (C) | “Misogyny was the backbone of the music business.” | | 17:03 | Kim (C) | “Women don’t get covered. So there’s the appearance that women aren’t in music.” | | 18:54 | Kim (C) | “It is systemic, and it’s a continuing thing...it’s eating itself...” | | 21:37 | Kim (C) | “I can’t believe that somebody...sounded like a cinch. And all I did was just sit there and smile...”| | 24:26 | Kim (C) | “I had a cat I liked. He died a couple years ago.” | | 25:27 | Kim (C) | “[On ‘cashing in’] You need a jewel-encrusted bustier and some big chunky silver earrings and some makeup too.” |

Key Timestamps

• 02:19 – Discussion on returning to touring and what it feels like not to be 23 anymore
• 05:01 – Recounting the origins of their reunion for the Last Splash anniversary
• 09:11 – The reality of being in a band vs. audience/host fantasies
• 10:37 – Addressing drugs and alcohol, impact on life and music
• 16:25 – Discussion on misogyny and systemic gender imbalance in music
• 19:06 – Kim’s on-stage persona and resistance to gender norms
• 22:19 – Personal struggles: Kim and Kelly’s mother and Alzheimer’s
• 24:43 – Joking about “selling out” and commercial pressures on women in music

Tone & Language

The episode is candid, warm, witty, and sometimes darkly funny. The tone alternates between irreverent and deeply serious, reflecting the personalities of The Breeders and their rapport with David Remnick. The language is colloquial, direct, and full of dry humor, with frequent cross-talk and affectionate interruptions among band members.

Summary for New Listeners

This episode moves far beyond a band reunion interview. It delves into the inner workings and fractures of The Breeders, paints a nuanced picture of the music industry’s often-hidden sexism, and offers raw honesty about addiction, aging, and creative life. The Breeders’ banter is as sharp as their music, and their insights make this conversation essential listening for anyone interested in indie rock, feminist perspectives in music, or the reality behind the mythology of rock and roll.