The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: The Countdown to Brexit, Plus Adam Gopnik’s Turkey Zen
Date: November 16, 2018
Host: David Remnick

Episode Overview

In this episode, David Remnick unpacks two main stories: the dramatic developments in the UK’s Brexit negotiations, with insights from journalists Sam Knight and Rebecca Mead; and a meditative, humorous reflection on Thanksgiving turkey from Adam Gopnik. In between, Kelefa Sanneh explores the idiosyncratic history and evolution of Christian rock.

I. Brexit Breakdown: Chaos, Compromise, and National Angst

Main Theme

The episode opens with urgent analysis of Theresa May’s controversial Brexit deal, the political turmoil in the UK, and the deeper social and economic anxieties fueling the crisis.

A. The Political Earthquake in Britain

[00:12–01:35]

• David Remnick sets the scene: Theresa May unveiled a long-awaited Brexit plan, met with protests and political uproar.
• “Intense scrutiny, it seems, is a British expression that might mean they're going to come for me and they're going to cut my bleeping head off.”
  —David Remnick [01:00]

B. The Intractable Irish Border and May's Compromise

[01:35–03:53]

• Sam Knight explains the core issue: avoiding a border in Ireland post-Brexit, leading to the UK remaining in the EU customs union indefinitely—a situation Brexiteers interpret as betrayal.
• “Not just Northern Ireland, but the whole of the UK will remain inside the EU's customs union sort of for the foreseeable future... that spells and smells to Brexiteers that we haven't really left..."
  —Sam Knight [02:15]
• Remnick summarizes: "Basically the worst of both worlds, right? They would have or would have had all the economic rules and basically no say at all in the process." [02:56]

C. May's Stark Choices and Second Referendum Talk

[03:53–05:01]

• May publicly mentions “the country faces a choice... between my deal, no deal, and no Brexit at all”—her first open acknowledgment of reversing Brexit as an option, likely tactical, yet it emboldens all sides.
• "Even raising that possibility has, if you like, emboldened everyone across the political spectrum to think that this thing is up for grabs now."
  —Sam Knight [04:44]

D. The Brexiteer Perspective and "Sovereignty"

[05:01–06:39]

• Rebecca Mead notes the persistent, if vague, promise of "sovereignty" appealed to voters feeling powerless, despite practical consequences.
• "Those people making that argument have, within their own lives, a kind of wiggle room for things to take a downturn... the pity of it is that there are so many people who voted for Brexit who don't have that wiggle room in their own household budget."
  —Rebecca Mead [06:10]

E. Life in London and the 'Alice in Wonderland' Quality

[06:39–07:48]

• Mead describes London as an international island of EU sentiment, and the national mood as "absurd."
• "There's a kind of Alice in Wonderland quality to it, where there's a kind of disbelief about what's going on."
  —Rebecca Mead [07:40]

F. National Disillusionment and the 'Betrayal Myth'

[07:48–09:27]

• Knight describes growing resentment and a narrative of betrayal, especially outside London, where the Brexit vote was partly about reclaiming control from “remote, alienating” powers.
• "Theresa May is not an avowed Brexiteer... she's almost irrelevant. I feel like this deal represents the reality of Brexit. It's a mess, it's a compromise."
  —Sam Knight [09:54]

G. Comparing Brexit Britain to Trump’s America

[09:27–11:35]

• Mead offers a sharp comparison:
  • "The difference in atmosphere between Britain and the United States is the difference between depression and psychosis... The thing about Brexit is it's incredibly complicated, incredibly important and unbelievably dull. And one can never say that about Trump's America."
    —Rebecca Mead [10:46]
• “It sounds like a giant bollocks.” —David Remnick
  “That's a cock up.” —Sam Knight
  “Perhaps a big cock up.” —Rebecca Mead [11:35–11:47]

H. Brexit and the NHS—National Institutions at Risk

[11:47–13:03]

• Knight reports EU workers vital to the NHS are leaving; Brexit threatens not only staffing but future funding for social welfare.

I. The Illusion of Solutions: Expectation vs. Reality

[13:03–15:22]

• Knight uses the analogy of returning to the gold standard—Brexit as "an awful thing posited as a solution" to complex social grievances.
• "It will not improve people's living standards. But were they wrong to send a message that they're not being listened to? That's the two sides of it."
  —Sam Knight [15:19]

J. The Role of Immigration, Racism and Anti-Elitism

[15:22–16:05]

• Mead: Brexit, like Trump, was partly a “genuine cry of pain,” but also about "racism and ignorance and a kind of anti-elitism"; the ugly subtext of immigration animates the debate.

II. Musical Interlude: Kelefa Sanneh on Christian Rock

Main Theme

Music critic Kelefa Sanneh charts the diversity, contradictions, and commercial success of Christian rock, from the 1960s to today.

A. Origins of Christian Rock

[17:10–17:40]

• Sanneh traces "intentionally Christian rock" to Larry Norman’s Upon This Rock (1969) and the Jesus Movement.

B. The Genre’s Mainstreaming and Counterculture Roots

[18:36–21:36]

• Explores the tension between musical form and lyrical content, highlighting Phil Keaggy and Leslie Phillips (later Sam Phillips).
• "There's always been big money in Christian rock music... there were often parents willing to buy their kids Christian rock albums... to keep them on the up and up."
  —Kelefa Sanneh [22:01]

C. Christian Rock Gets Loud—and Weird

[22:16–25:42]

• Features wild stylistic variety: from Norwegian Christian death metal (Extol) to avant-garde bands like MeWithoutYou.
• "If you really believe this idea that the lyrics are what makes something Christian, Christian rock could mean a whole lot of things, but the religion is sincere."
  —Kelefa Sanneh [23:57]

D. Christian Rock’s Broad Influence

[25:42–26:19]

• Notes the genre’s hidden reach—artists like the Killers, Imagine Dragons, and even Katy Perry have roots in Christian music.

III. Adam Gopnik’s Turkey Zen: A Thanksgiving Meditation

Main Theme

Adam Gopnik delivers a wry, philosophical monologue on the futility and meaning of preparing turkey, and the enduring, inclusive spirit of Thanksgiving.

A. The “Zen” of Making Turkey

[27:16–28:30]

• "The truth is, there is no good way to prepare a turkey, my son. There is no good way to prepare a turkey."
  —Adam Gopnik [27:21]
• No matter the method, all turkey “ends up tasting like turkey.”

B. Thanksgiving: Myth and Meaning

• Franklin’s affection for the turkey as national symbol: “It is homely. It is somewhat domestic. It isn't a predator like the damn bald eagle." [28:04]
• Thanksgiving’s myth is "one of diversity... coexistence... intersectionality," despite its historical gloss.
• Scene of Soho butchers, a cross-section of immigrant names and community: "A holiday of many kinds... a celebration of diversity and bad poultry." [29:33]
• Thanksgiving as America’s true universal holiday: “I have never known someone who was allergic to Thanksgiving.” [31:20]

C. Rituals and Family

[29:53–31:55]

• Feasting as a universal human rite, compared to dancing and music.
• Amusing aside about modern youth: "Kids no longer have sex. Apparently in their 20s, they share casserole pictures on Pinterest."
• “Thanksgiving may be the universal solvent of Scrooges.” [31:39]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Intense scrutiny, it seems, is a British expression that might mean they're going to come for me and they're going to cut my bleeping head off.”
  —David Remnick [01:00]
• "There's a kind of Alice in Wonderland quality to it, where there's a kind of disbelief about what's going on."
  —Rebecca Mead [07:40]
• "The difference in atmosphere between Britain and the United States is the difference between depression and psychosis."
  —Rebecca Mead [10:46]
• "It will not improve people's living standards. But were they wrong to send a message that they're not being listened to? That's the two sides of it."
  —Sam Knight [15:19]
• "The truth is, there is no good way to prepare a turkey, my son."
  —Adam Gopnik [27:21]
• "Thanksgiving may be the universal solvent of Scrooges."
  —Adam Gopnik [31:39]

Key Timestamps (MM:SS)

• 00:12–16:09 — Brexit discussion with Sam Knight and Rebecca Mead
• 17:10–26:19 — Kelefa Sanneh on the history and culture of Christian Rock
• 27:16–31:55 — Adam Gopnik’s monologue on the meaning of turkey and Thanksgiving

Summary Takeaways

• The Brexit process, as covered by Knight and Mead, is an intractable political crisis exposing wounds over sovereignty, identity, and economic security—leaving few in the UK satisfied or optimistic.
• Christian rock’s growth mirrors the complex intersections of faith, counterculture, and commerce—at times earnest, lucrative, and full of contradictions, but unexpectedly influential.
• Adam Gopnik’s reflections make the case for Thanksgiving’s enduring paradox: an imperfect myth and a meal as flawed—and as meaningful—as the nation itself.