Podcast Summary: The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: The Pandemic at Three: Who Got it Right?
Date: February 24, 2023
Host: David Remnick
Guests: Dhruv Kullar (physician/writer), Rochelle Walensky (CDC Director), Zeke Emanuel (public health expert)

Overview

On the third anniversary of the COVID-19 pandemic’s arrival in the United States, David Remnick and Dhruv Kullar reflect on what the world—and America in particular—got right and wrong in its pandemic response. The discussion explores international comparisons, the efficacy and consequences of mandates, the vital role of social trust, debates around school closures, political divides, and the future of public health communication. Insights from CDC Director Rochelle Walensky and public health expert Zeke Emanuel offer a forward-looking perspective.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Remembering the Onset and Scope of the Pandemic

• Remnick recounts lockdowns beginning "just about three years ago," with over a million U.S. deaths and 7 million globally. The pandemic continues to have profound consequences across health, education, and society. (00:11)
• Quote: “The pandemic reshaped all of our lives, and many did not survive it.” – David Remnick (00:11)

Which Countries Got It Right? (01:31)

• Dhruv Kullar highlights:
  • Data reliability is a challenge (e.g., China’s underreporting).
  • The effectiveness of responses changed over time, but after three years, some conclusions can be drawn.
  • East Asian countries (Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan), New Zealand, Australia, Denmark, and Norway are cited as having done well.
  • Key factors:
    • Early, robust testing and contact tracing.
    • Reliable data reporting for agile response to surges.
    • “Trust” and social cohesion, especially in Japan and South Korea, where societal norms yielded high compliance, even with minimal legal mandates.
• Notable moment: Masks compared to “face underpants” in Japan, illustrating cultural pressure. (03:18)
  • Quote: “You wouldn’t want to be in public without your underpants on. You wouldn’t want to be in public without your mask on.” – Dhruv Kullar (03:23)

Trust vs. Mandates (03:36)

• Mandates are less effective without underlying trust and willingness to comply. Countries with strong social cohesion managed well even with fewer mandates.
• Mandates vs. encouragement: Enforcement isn’t as effective as collective willingness.

Political Divides in U.S. Pandemic Response (04:52)

• Blue states favored mandates, red states emphasized business and school openings.
• Success depends on the metric: public health outcomes vs. economic and educational impacts.
  • Commonwealth Fund ranks Hawaii and Massachusetts highly for health outcomes.
  • Conservative research factoring economy and education finds Utah on top.

The Case of Utah (06:51)

• Utah’s social trust and moderate leadership contributed to its strong pandemic performance.
  • Quote: “Utah was probably the best state in the country to lose your wallet in.” – Dhruv Kullar (06:58)
• High trust seen as key both internationally and domestically.

Schools: Closures and Lessons Learned (07:41)

• Main takeaway: “Schools should be the last thing that close during any emergency, including a pandemic.” – Dhruv Kullar (07:46)
• Risk of transmission in schools was relatively low; short closures correlated with better outcomes.
• Early caution understandable, but hindsight favors keeping schools open.

The Florida Example & Political Claims (08:50)

• Ron DeSantis of Florida touts a successful response, but outcomes were mixed.
  • Quote: “Florida is by no means an outlier in terms of a brilliant pandemic response. Neither is it an outlier in terms of a horrific pandemic response... ended up in a similar state.” – Dhruv Kullar (09:31)
• High vaccination rates among seniors noted as a factor.

U.S. Response and CDC Challenges (10:10)

• Remnick: U.S. fared poorly globally—lack of preparedness, politicization, CDC dilemmas.
• Dhruv Kullar interviews Rochelle Walensky (CDC Director):
  • CDC’s moves to accelerate science release and real-time data.
  • Need for guidance adaptable to diverse communities.
  • Communication now needs to reach the general public, not just professionals.
    • Quote: “Our audience has changed broadly.” – Rochelle Walensky (11:45)

Trust, Messaging, and Polarization (12:03)

• Kullar raises issues of public trust and politicization.
• Walensky on seeking the balance between rapid action and scientific certainty.
  • Importance of “plain language” communication.
  • Challenges in a polarized country.
  • Quote: “I have never walked at a patient's bedside and asked them how they voted before I delivered care... what they want is a unified voice and a unified message.” – Rochelle Walensky (13:05)

Battling Misinformation (13:36)

• Walensky acknowledges: “mis and disinformation... is larger than CDC,” and directs skeptics to independent, peer-reviewed sources when distrust of government prevails.

Mandates in Hindsight (14:36)

• Mandates were extraordinary measures for extraordinary times; current context would demand different conversations.
  • Quote: “Those were extraordinary times, and they merited extraordinary measures for those times. We're in a different place right now.” – Rochelle Walensky (15:07)

Can We Defeat a Pandemic Without Trust? (15:36)

• Remnick and Kullar agree: public health mistrust remains a major problem.
• Zeke Emanuel argues that attacking expertise endangers crisis response and ongoing operations.
  • Quote: “We are in a phase in American life, we attack experts and we pretend like we don’t need them. It’s a dangerous idea, especially in a more technological, complex world.” – Zeke Emanuel (16:29)
  • Attacks on figures like Tony Fauci deter future public service and expertise needed for crisis management.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You wouldn’t want to be in public without your underpants on. You wouldn’t want to be in public without your mask on.” – Dhruv Kullar (03:23)
• “Utah was probably the best state in the country to lose your wallet in.” – Dhruv Kullar (06:58)
• “Schools should be the last thing that close during any emergency, including a pandemic.” – Dhruv Kullar (07:46)
• “I have never walked at a patient's bedside and asked them how they voted before I delivered care... what they want is a unified voice and a unified message.” – Rochelle Walensky (13:05)
• “We are in a phase in American life, we attack experts and we pretend like we don’t need them. It’s a dangerous idea...” – Zeke Emanuel (16:29)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Intro & Pandemic Scope: 00:11–01:31
• International Performance & Trust: 01:31–04:52
• U.S. Political Divides & Metrics: 04:52–06:51
• Utah & Social Trust: 06:51–07:41
• Schools Debate: 07:41–08:50
• Florida & Political Claims: 08:50–10:10
• U.S. Response & CDC Interview: 10:10–14:36
• Mandates & Misinformation: 14:36–15:57
• Expertise & Public Trust: 15:57–17:56

Conclusion

This episode provides a nuanced, data-informed, and compassionately human reflection on how nations, states, and institutions reacted to COVID-19. Social trust, the role of mandates, school closures, political divisions, and the essential need for expertise and effective communication are recurring themes—with the consensus that without trust and expertise, future crises will be harder to navigate.