The U.F.C. President, Dana White, on Donald Trump: “He’s Not a Racist”

Summary

The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode Summary: "The U.F.C. President, Dana White, on Donald Trump: 'He’s Not a Racist'"

Date: May 22, 2026
Host: David Remnick
Guest: Dana White (UFC President & CEO)

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Overview

In this candid and politically charged episode, David Remnick sits down with Dana White, President and CEO of the Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC), to discuss the meteoric rise of UFC, the complexities of combat sports, and, most notably, White’s long-standing friendship and public support for President Donald Trump. The conversation stitches together the business and culture of fighting with the personal and political dynamics at play between two very public figures. Remnick explores White’s defense of Trump in the face of widespread criticism, the UFC’s landmark events, the challenge of keeping fights clean amidst the gambling boom, and White’s business ambitions in both MMA and boxing.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The UFC’s Origins and Evolution

• Mixed Martial Arts Roots

  • UFC started in the early 1990s by answering the age-old question: “Which fighting style is best?” (02:32)
  • Dana White: “They did the first one, and it rivaled the WWE in boxing. ...What they never realized at the time is that they were building a sport.” (02:40)

• Transition to Regulation & Safety

  • White explains how, after buying UFC in 2001, he pushed for state athletic commissions to regulate events, setting rules to ensure safety and legitimacy. (03:35–04:22)
  • On safety: “30 years, never had a death or serious injury. Cheerleading can’t say that.” (05:03)

• Distinctive Culture and Fighters

  • Unlike boxing’s “rags to riches” stories, many UFC fighters come from collegiate sports backgrounds. Chuck Liddell, for example, “graduated from Cal Poly with a degree in accounting.” (07:44)

• Why It’s Captivating

  • The variety in ways to win (submissions, kicks, grappling) and a universal human response to fighting.
  • “Fighting’s in our DNA. ...If a fight broke out in here right now, it would create this sort of energy.” (15:06)

2. UFC’s Business Side and Mainstream Rise

• UFC’s Growth Under White

  • White and the Fertitta brothers bought UFC for $2 million; recently, the company signed a $7.7 billion deal with Paramount. (09:01, 47:03)
  • On regulation: “Without Senator John McCain, I probably wouldn’t be sitting here having this conversation...” (10:18)

• Regulation as a Double-Edged Sword

  • White credits political pressure (notably from John McCain) for pushing UFC toward safety and legitimacy, but early sensational marketing made it difficult to gain acceptance. (11:54)
  • “They sensationalized it. ...The most brutal, bloody, violent sport in the world. ...But that eventually ended up biting them in the end.” (11:16)

• Demographics and Inclusivity

  • Fanbase has become increasingly female, especially after COVID-19, and foreign fighters are prominent. (13:15–14:02)

• Boxing vs. UFC

  • White’s entering boxing with Zufa; he argues boxing is “broken” and wants to “rip it apart, build it from the ground up.” (49:44)

3. The Cultural Moment: UFC at the White House

• Historic Event

  • UFC to host a fight on the South Lawn of the White House for the U.S. 250th anniversary, with title bouts, 4,000 in attendance, and a massive public viewing in the Ellipse. (35:27, 36:12)

• Event Design & Audience

  • Unique setup to showcase the White House instead of commercial rigging; tickets distributed among military and officials. (36:14, 36:40)

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4. Dana White’s Relationship With Donald Trump

• How It Began

  • Trump gave UFC legitimacy when no other venue would, hosting early events at his Atlantic City casinos. “He showed up for the first fight of the night and stayed till the end...” (19:55)

• White’s Political Identity

  • Describes himself as a “common sense, down the middle…80s, 90s Democrat.” Claims he remains center-left, despite public support for Trump. (21:38–22:11)

• Support & Public Stumping for Trump

  • White has spoken on Trump’s behalf at multiple Republican National Conventions and at Trump’s victory party. (18:52, 20:13)
  • Motivated by personal loyalty, not partisanship: “I spoke about who he is as a person and as a friend and as a human being, because a lot of… narrative that they put out there about him... is absolutely, positively not true.” (22:22)

• Responding to Trump’s Criticism and Accusations

  • White forcefully rejects claims that Trump is a racist or fascist, attributing such narratives to politics:

    • “Call the guy a racist is crazy. He’s not a racist.” (24:25)
    • “He’s not a racist, he’s not a fascist. He loves this country.” (25:42)

  • When pressed about Trump’s offensive behavior or specific racist episodes (like the Obama video), White deflects:

    • “If he was that type of a person, I would never associate with that type of a person.” (24:57)
    • “He’s the most transparent personality in public life.” (25:22)

• Memorable Quote:

  • “If you are the baddest man or woman in the world, people want to watch you.” (14:02)

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5. Dana White, Joe Rogan, and Media Strategy

• The Joe Rogan Connection

  • Hired Rogan for his insight and communication skills—critical to explaining the nuances of MMA to mainstream audiences. (26:34–27:55)
  • Rogan and White did extensive radio tours to market UFC in its early days. (28:18)

• Influence on 2024 Election

  • White claims a role in getting both Trump and Joe Rogan together and ultimately in Rogan’s endorsement of Trump.
    • “I text him and said, are you voting for Trump? And he said, yes. I said, then endorse. ...And he did.” (32:39)
    • Admits Rogan was initially reluctant to get political and had supported Bernie Sanders early on. (29:55)

• On Rogan’s Critique of Trump

  • White is noncommittal about specific disagreements: “I wish I could take his Twitter away sometimes in the past...I know who this guy is.” (34:03)

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6. Politics and Partisanship in UFC

• UFC’s Perceived Political Leanings

  • No record of Democratic politicians trying to identify with UFC, in contrast to NBA or MLB. (37:10)
  • Obama congratulated White at a public event but never attended a fight. (38:11)

• On Public Image:

  • “I would never disrespect or turn anybody away.” (37:22)
  • Claims Trump’s genuine fandom is what sets him apart politically. (37:40)

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7. Personal Stories and Memorable Moments

• White House Correspondents’ Dinner Incident

  • White describes being unfazed during a real security emergency at the event:
    • “They were screaming, get down. I didn’t get down. It was awesome...the adrenaline...was off the charts.” (39:52–40:23)
    • “I’m never a get down kind of guy, okay? ...It’s going to be a closed casket, okay?” (41:13)
    • Praised the calm of liberal journalists and camaraderie after the threat passed. (43:39)

• On Gambling

  • White is a high-stakes gambler personally but does not bet on UFC events. Has strict integrity measures in place after irregular betting incidents, including FBI involvement. (47:19–49:09)
  • “I do really well. I do really well. ...Recently, I spend too much money. I'll never be a billionaire.” (47:03–47:21)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On UFC’s Mass Appeal:
  • “Fighting’s in our DNA. ...If a fight broke out in here right now, it would create energy.”
    • Dana White (15:06)
• On Fighter Backgrounds:
  • “He looks like an axe murderer...He graduated from Cal Poly with a degree in accounting.”
    • Dana White on Chuck Liddell (07:45)
• On Trump:
  • “Call the guy a racist is crazy. He’s not a racist.”
    • Dana White (24:25)
  • “If he was that type of a person, I would never associate with that type of a person, no matter who he was or who he thinks he is.”
    • Dana White (24:57)
• On UFC Business:
  • “7.7 billion. ...No, no, no, no. The company... I do really well. ...I'll never be a billionaire.”
    • White & Remnick (47:03–47:19)
• On the White House Fights:
  • “We should do a fight at the White House.”
    • Donald Trump, via Dana White (35:27)
• On Security Scare:
  • “The adrenaline in your body and mine anyway, was off the charts...I’m never a get down kind of guy, okay?”
    • Dana White (41:13)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [00:08] – Intro to episode; set-up of UFC at the White House
• [02:17] – Origins and evolution of UFC
• [13:44] – UFC’s international reach and diversity
• [18:02] – Dana White on his relationship with Trump
• [22:53] – White on Trump’s reputation and loyalty
• [26:10] – Relationship with and role of Joe Rogan
• [32:26] – Rogan’s Trump endorsement and media strategy
• [35:07] – Organizing the White House UFC fight
• [39:52] – White House Correspondents’ Dinner incident
• [47:01] – Business dealings, gambling, and integrity in UFC
• [49:42] – White on entering the boxing business

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Tone and Language

Remnick remains probing, measured, and skeptical, while White is forthright, occasionally deflective, and highly loyal—to both his friends and his fighters. The tone throughout is conversational but electric, with moments of tension and levity, mirroring the high-stakes worlds of fighting and politics.

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For the Listener

This wide-ranging interview offers an inside look at contemporary American sport and politics—a profile in loyalty, bravado, and controversy. Whether you’re a fight fan or a political observer, White’s unwavering defense of Trump and behind-the-scenes details on the UFC’s biggest spectacle yet make this episode a rare, revealing listen.

Transcript

[Narrator/Producer]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC and the New Yorker.

[David Remnick]

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. There will be a variety of celebrations to honor America's 250th anniversary this year. And much of it can be easily anticipated. Plenty of fireworks, buildings bathed in red, white and blue lights, even a military parade. But something else is happening, something that probably would not be happening if anyone other than Donald Trump was in the White House.

[Joe Rogan]

It sounds crazy. I know it's going to be very high security and high stress and weird to have a fight at the White House in the middle of a fucking war. I would hope the war will be sorted out by June, but quite honestly, I'm not confident that that's going to be the case.

[David Remnick]

No. Yeah. No.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. So that would be weird.

[David Remnick]

That's Joe Rogan describing the upcoming on the South Lawn of the White House put on by ufc, the Ultimate Fighting Championship. That's the premier league for mixed Martial arts, where fighters call on a variety of styles from around the world. And it's arguably the most brutal professional sport and also one of the most popular. UFC was founded in 1993, but it wasn't a big success until Dana White took over as president of the company in 2001. It kept growing and growing until last year, the UFC cut a broadcast deal with Paramount for $7.7 billion. Dana White has also been friends with Donald Trump for a quarter century, and he's been one of the President's most influential supporters. And we also have a man, Dana White, who has done some job. He's that tough guy. I recently sat down with Dana to find out more about his remarkable rise to prominence and his relationship with the President of the United States. I've got a figure that our audience. Let me put it to you this way, not all of them watch UFC fights regularly, let's put it that way.

[Dana White]

But I think you would also be surprised in who is and who isn't a UFC fan.

[David Remnick]

So where does this all come from? We know about the origins of boxing. People who've been fighting forever for sport and otherwise. This form of fighting comes from where?

[Dana White]

In the early 90s, a bunch of television guys, local guy here from New York named Bob Meyerowitz, got together and said, let's answer the age old question of which fighting style is the best. We put a boxer against a wrestler, Kung fu versus karate, and all these type of things. And they did the first one, and it rivaled the WWE in boxing. Pay per views at the time. So they were like, wow, we got something here. So they did another one and another one. What they never realized at the time is that they were building a sport. And the answer to that age old question is no. 1 fighting style is the best. You have to have a little piece of everything to be a complete fighter. And Bruce Lee was saying that in the 60s.

[David Remnick]

So I went to see, when I was a kid, I went to see on close what was called closed circuit in a movie theater, Muhammad Ali fight a Japanese. Enoki was his name.

[Dana White]

That's right.

[David Remnick]

And the wrestler just stayed on his back and kept kicking gully in the shins. It was not exciting, I gotta tell you.

[Dana White]

It's very true.

[David Remnick]

But UFC has what kind of rules you get into this octagon, two men or two women, and then what?

[Dana White]

So what you're saying is exactly right. When you started pitting style versus style, it wasn't very exciting and there was a lot of stalling. And when we bought the UFC back in 2001, we ran toward regulation, meaning to have the athletic commissions in each state oversee us.

[David Remnick]

What are the rules for the uninitiated? Two fighters get into the octagon, this kind of padded ring with a kind of a fence around it. And then I've got these gloves that aren't quite boxing gloves on me. Maybe they protect my hands, maybe they don't.

[Dana White]

They do. That's right.

[David Remnick]

And, and then you just go in and you'll forgive me, you go to beat the living crap out of the other guy. What's allowed, what's not. Cause in boxing you can't hit below the bell.

[Dana White]

You can't do that here. There's most of the same type of rules, except this can go to the ground where you can use submissions, you can strike on the ground.

[David Remnick]

What's a submission?

[Dana White]

A submission is where probably what used

[David Remnick]

to be called the sleeper hold in professional rescue.

[Dana White]

That's what I was just gonna say. Probably the best one is called the rear naked choke, where you, you get the choking and the guy either taps out or he goes to sleep. Yeah.

[David Remnick]

So the sleeper holds to sleep is a euphemism?

[Dana White]

No, no. So what you do is the choke closes the carotid arteries, which slows the blood flow to the brain and makes you go to sleep.

[David Remnick]

Okay. I think I just sensed a lot of people passing out. So how dangerous is this compared to boxing and the other martial arts?

[Dana White]

This is how dangerous it is. 30 years, never had a death or serious injury. Cheerleading can't say that. Okay. And six to seven boxers die a year.

[David Remnick]

Nobody's ever died.

[Dana White]

30 years. When you spend the money on the proper medical attention before they get in, during the fight, and after the fight, you eliminate a lot of the risks in the sport.

[David Remnick]

What about injury down the line? We all know the effects of football CTEs and the rest. And, you know, I've met a lot of boxers who might have their wits about them when they're active, but years later, you've met them, too.

[Dana White]

Absolutely.

[David Remnick]

Floyd Patterson, Muhammad Ali, many, many other fighters that I've met and tried to interview. They've really lost it. And it's very clear that this is the result of just repetitive trauma. To love those to the head.

[Dana White]

Yep, absolutely.

[David Remnick]

Are you saying that UFC is free of that?

[Dana White]

No. Anytime you're taking shots to the head, it is very bad for you.

[David Remnick]

So how do you justify it?

[Dana White]

You don't. You have grown adults who choose to do this for a living, and this is what they want to do. They make this. It's not like that thing that went on in the NFL where they thought helmets were protecting their brains.

[David Remnick]

Right.

[Dana White]

You know, they became a weapon that goes into this, knows that getting punched in the head is bad for you.

[David Remnick]

Yeah. What's the appeal to you? How did you get into this?

[Dana White]

So I was, you know, a big fan of boxing and grew up loving boxing, was my favorite sport. And I went to high school with these guys, the Fertitta brothers. They own station casinos in Las Vegas.

[David Remnick]

Like, you grew up in the east coast and then you moved to Las Vegas?

[Dana White]

I moved to Las Vegas when I was in fifth grade, and I ended up going to high school with these guys. And. And one night, Frank Fertitta and I were at the Hard Rock in Las Vegas, and there was a fighter there named John Lewis who fought in the ufc, and he had a jiu jitsu school. And Frank said, I've always wanted to learn jiu jitsu. So we went over and talked to him. We set up a private lesson on Monday, and we became obsessed. We started training four or five times a week in jiu jitsu. And through that, we started to meet a lot of the fighters that fought in the ufc, and we were blown away. Most of these guys, it wasn't the same story as boxing. Boxing story is I came from the mean streets of such and such, and if it wasn't for boxing, I'd be dead or in jail.

[David Remnick]

Right.

[Dana White]

The complete opposite with UFC fighters, most of these.

[David Remnick]

Why would that be?

[Dana White]

Because when you think about if your parents put you in martial arts. When you were young, your parents had money, and a lot of these guys were college wrestlers, so they all went to college. Like Chuck Liddell. Do you know who Chuck Liddell is?

[David Remnick]

Tell everybody.

[Dana White]

The stereotypical ultimate fighter, if you saw him, he's got a mohawk, big, mean looking guy with a Fu Manchu. He looks like an axe murderer. If you saw the guy. He graduated from Cal Poly with a degree in accounting. So these were the type of guys that were fighting in the ufc, and I thought that their stories were very interesting. And the truth is, if you've ever been to a UFC fight, anybody who's listening right now, that's been, it is the most exciting live sporting event you will ever see. There's so many different ways to win and lose, and just the energy and the buzz inside the building is great.

[David Remnick]

What do you mean? There's so many ways to win and lose.

[Dana White]

So in boxing, I punch you to the head or body more times than you punch me to the head or body and I win or I knock you out. In the ufc, you can do all of that too, but you can also kick, knee, elbow punch. It can go to the ground where you fight for submission. So it's just. It's non stop action.

[David Remnick]

Tell me this, Dana. I wrote a book about Muhammad Ali long ago. I think we both agree he might be the greatest even athlete who ever lived. Certainly the most exciting in my lifetime.

[Dana White]

Or human.

[David Remnick]

Who's the Muhammad Ali of the UFC in your estimation and why?

[Dana White]

Well, we have a guy named Conor McGregor who I would say is like our Muhammad Ali. But if you're looking for your Michael Jordan, it would be Jon Jones who is the greatest.

[David Remnick]

Now, why is that? Tell us about Jon Jones and why he.

[Dana White]

So Jon Jones is undefeated still. He's never been beat, and he's moved up and down weight classes. It's very, very unique and hard to be undefeated in the ufc.

[David Remnick]

How did you buy ufc? Cause you seem to, in retrospect, have bought it for a song.

[Dana White]

Yeah, $2 million. So when we were training in jiu jitsu and we started to meet a lot of the fighters, I started to manage some of the guys, and I got into a contract dispute with the old owner, Bob Meyerowitz, and Bob said, you know what? There is no more money, okay? I don't even know if I can afford to put on the next event. We hung up and I said, wow, that's interesting. I called my partners Lorenzo and Frank Fertitta and said, I just Got off the phone with the owner of the ufc. I think they're going bankrupt. They're in trouble. We should buy them.

[David Remnick]

Wasn't it kind of risky? You had Senator John McCain, who's nobody's idea of a wimp, God knows, call MMA human cockfighting.

[Dana White]

Right.

[David Remnick]

How do you respond to that?

[Dana White]

Yeah, you know, I think that Without Senator John McCain, I probably wouldn't be sitting here having this conversation with you right now. You know, tell me why. You know, his stance on the UFC drove them toward, and not only them, but us, when we bought it toward regulation and being regulated by the athletic commissions in each state. This many people want to see a freak show, this many people want to see a real sport.

[David Remnick]

So what separated it from the old form to the new form? What were the regulations that were put into place? It used to be banned in 36 states.

[Dana White]

Well, here's what happened. Well, think about this. It wasn't allowed on pay per view. You, as a grown adult, didn't have the option to buy it on porn was on pay per view. UFC was not allowed. So when we bought it for $2 million, our goal was to get it back on on free television, which everybody thought was impossible.

[David Remnick]

So what were the regulations put into place so that it was no longer a freak show?

[Dana White]

So what sort of tripped them up early was them sensationalizing it. Like, two men enter the octagon, One man leaves. The most brutal, bloody, violent sport in the world. There are no rules. There's this. You know, that's just hype, right?

[David Remnick]

You hear that in boxing, too.

[Dana White]

But at the time, and I was involved in boxing, and when the first one was coming, nobody believed it was true. There's like, there's no way this could be real, that this is gonna happen. And it was real. It did happen. And everybody tuned in because of the sensationalism, but that eventually ended up biting him in the end.

[David Remnick]

How so?

[Dana White]

Because Senator John McCain went after it and said, this is disgusting. Think about at this time. And again, when you and I grew up, right? John Wayne movie. John Wayne would hit a guy, right? Guy would go down. John Wayne didn't jump on top of him and start pounding him. He'd stand him back up and he'd hit him again. You didn't do that. You didn't jump on a guy when he was down. You didn't hit a man when he was down.

[David Remnick]

What do you tell the referees? At what point do the referees jump in and stop the proceedings? Because sometimes somebody will go down, and then the other Fighter will jump on him and start punching him mercilessly in the head. It's the fighter's job to keep going. I assume it's the referee's job to do what?

[Dana White]

It's the fighter's job to protect himself at all times. And if the referee feels like he can't anymore and the fight needs to be stopped, he stops it. No different than boxing. I mean, you've seen some boxing fights where the guy's out on his feet, he goes down.

[David Remnick]

Terrible, terrible refereeing.

[Dana White]

I agree. You'll see it in the UFC too. There's terrible refereeing sometimes in the ufc,

[David Remnick]

but you're saying it's terrible because they're too hesitant to stop it or too quick to stop it?

[Dana White]

Both. So sometimes they're too quick, sometimes they're too late. You know, there's terrible refereeing in boxing, ufc, basketball, the NFL. I mean, you're always going to have some human error.

[David Remnick]

What is the breakdown of fans, men and women?

[Dana White]

Well, a lot more women now than there was in the beginning. In the beginning, because you have women fighters too. My base was males 18 to 34. It was a no brainer, really. You know, I went through Covid. Right. I don't own brick and mortar. All I need to do is set up an octagon somewhere and beam it. You know, back then I was on ESPN, beam it to ESPN. And our business grew like 77% during COVID And a lot of them were women.

[David Remnick]

Wow. I've noticed that there are a lot of foreign born fighters in the ufc and a lot of them come from Dagestan, Georgia, Chechnya, Uzbekistan. Is it a challenge to try to market the UFC when you have so many foreign fighters? Or it doesn't really matter?

[Dana White]

No, no. You know, people ask me, what about language barriers? What about this? You can be a deaf mute. Okay. If you are the baddest man or woman in the world, people want to watch you. If you have that Conor McGregor, that Muhammad Ali thing, I mean, that's just a.

[David Remnick]

Okay, tell me about Conor McGregor.

[Dana White]

They're unicorns.

[David Remnick]

What does Conor McGregor have that. That separates him out?

[Dana White]

He has that ability that when he walks into a room, people just, you know, are, are, are fascinated by them, to listen to them. They're funny. They have incredible magnetic personalities, and they're

[David Remnick]

real personalities, you know, or are they put on in the way that pro wrestlers of my childhood and then after.

[Dana White]

Some are. Some are, have the thing that they turn on when they're. Conor McGregor has, like, Muhammad Ali was the Same guy in the living room with his wife and kids that he was when you saw him on TV. And Conor McGregor's the same.

[David Remnick]

Why do you think UFC has taken off now? What is it about the culture, the other sports, the media sphere? Why now?

[Dana White]

Well, I have this philosophy that no matter what color you are, what country you come from, what language you speak, we're all human beings. And fighting's in our DNA. We get it and we like it. Even. Even a sophisticated guy like you that writes for the New Yorker and whatever. If a fight broke out in here right now, it would create this sort of energy in here, you and I, and we'd be like, oh, wow. And we would watch the fight play out. It's just as humans, it's.

[David Remnick]

You think it's just in us?

[Dana White]

It's in us. Absolutely, 100%.

[David Remnick]

Is there something ugly in us?

[Dana White]

I don't know about ugly. We're all fighters, even everybody listening to this show right now. We get up every day and we battle something. We all have to fight. When you get out of bed every morning, life is standing right there to kick you in the face.

[David Remnick]

I've noticed. I've noticed. I'm speaking with dana white, president and CEO of the ultimate fighting championship. Will continue in a moment. This is the new yorker radio hour.

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[David Remnick]

This is Eric Glass on this American Life. When do we like is a good mystery sometimes about really big things. Things you hear in the news. But most times the little mysteries are the best. Our lost and found is currently filled

[Dana White]

with pants I don't know.

[David Remnick]

I've never seen this happen. I've got skirts. I've got shorts. This is true. This is true. Mysteries of every size. Each week, this American life. Wherever you get your podcast.

[Narrator/Ad Voice]

Foreign.

[David Remnick]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick, and I'm speaking with Dana White, the president and CEO of ufc. Donald Trump was an early supporter of UFC when the league was just getting started in popularity. Dana White, in turn, has stumped for the president at many rallies, and he spoke on his behalf and the last three Republican National Conventions, as well as at Trump's victory party in 2024. As Joe Rogan and many others are now wavering in their support for Trump, I asked Dana White how he feels about this second term. We'll continue our conversation now. Dan, I think you got to give me credit for going 17 minutes or whatever it is without mentioning Donald Trump's name. But you're associated with him. You.

[Dana White]

I'm not associated with him. He's one of my very, very good friends.

[David Remnick]

Okay. You spoke for him at the nominating conventions. I think at the victory celebration. You were one of the speakers right

[Dana White]

there with him, which I didn't see coming. That was not planned.

[David Remnick]

Why? Tell me a bit about the origins of your relationship with Donald Trump. I don't know if it's political in origin or just maybe furthest things from political. Tell me.

[Dana White]

So when we started this, all the things that we've talked about in buying and building the ufc. Now imagine if this wasn't allowed on pay per view. Imagine venues, right? Arenas did not want us. What kind of people would show up to see an event like this? Human cockfighting. So Donald Trump own the Atlantic City casinos at the time, and he had us come to the Taj. The Taj Mahal for the first fight that we did, UFC 30. We did UFC 30 and UFC 31 at the Taj Mahal.

[David Remnick]

What year is this?

[Dana White]

2001. He showed up for the first fight of the night and stayed till the end both times that we went there. And every good thing that ever happened to me in my career after that, he was always the first guy to reach out and say, congratulations. I always knew this was going to be big. I knew you were going to.

[David Remnick]

What did he like about it?

[Dana White]

Well, I think he's a fight fan. You know, you want to talk about a fighter? I mean, that guy's a fighter, one of the, you know, most resilient human beings I've ever met in my life. And he, you know, he had the big Tyson fights and boxing matches at his place. So he's a fight fan, and the guy has always been a good friend to me. And then in 2015, when he decided he was going to run, he reached out to me and he said, I would be honored if you'd speak for me. Well, this is the way he said it. He called me and said, if you don't want to do this, I completely understand, but I would be honored if you would speak for me at the Republican convention. And everybody told me not to do it.

[Donald Trump]

First, Donald has great business instincts. He supports businesses of all sizes. He'll make it possible for them to grow and succeed, which is the backbone. Backbone of a strong economy. Second, Donald is a hard worker. This guy's going to get up there, he's going to roll up his sleeves, he will work with people, and he will put in the time to get things done. Third, for over 15 years, Donald Trump has been a loyal and supportive friend.

[David Remnick]

Well, Dana, tell me a little bit what your politics were like up until then, and what was your sense of his politics up until then?

[Dana White]

I would say that my politics have always been common sense down the middle, leaning a little left. That's what I would say.

[David Remnick]

I was in what sense?

[Dana White]

In my 20s. You know, my late teens and 20s I spent in Massachusetts, which is very liberal. And, yeah, I would consider myself a 80s 90s democrat.

[David Remnick]

Have you changed over time politically?

[Dana White]

No, I haven't changed.

[David Remnick]

So you remain a kind of center left Democrat?

[Dana White]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David Remnick]

Do you talk politics with Trump or did you before the first convention?

[Dana White]

No, no, that wasn't a.

[David Remnick]

That wasn't a currency of your conversation, of your relationship.

[Dana White]

If you look at any of my speeches at the conventions or any of that, I don't ever say the left is wrong or the left is bad or the left is this. I spoke about who he is as a person and as a friend and as a human being, because a lot of the, you know, the narrative that they put out there about him and who he is as a person is gross, but it's absolutely, positively not true.

[David Remnick]

Okay, so let's dig into that a little bit. I think, I think it's fair to say that if he has that reputation, it doesn't come from outer space.

[Dana White]

Oh, it does. It comes from politics. That's where it comes from. It comes from.

[David Remnick]

Doesn't it come from some of his rhetoric and some of his way of treating people and talking about people?

[Dana White]

No, I think that. Listen, did I wish that back in the day he'd stay off Twitter a little bit more. And things like, listen, he's a tough guy and he's not afraid to give his opinion, but he's been talking about politics since he was young. I mean, if you look back at him. But these things that he's a racist and he's a Nazi and he's this and that. I mean, Donald Trump, all this stuff's coming out now. The Michael movie just came out. And you see all these videos now popping up of Trump defending Michael Jackson and the type of person that he was and that Michael Jackson was around his children and around his family a lot.

[David Remnick]

Wait a minute, Dana. Michael Jackson, as talented as he was, as brilliant as he was, was a deeply, deeply flawed human being, no doubt about him in the least. And was, was, was abusive. Everything we know about him. Wait, wait, he was abusive kids? Yes. It's terrible.

[Dana White]

I don't know if that's true. I don't know if that's true, but I can tell you that, you know, the President had a very good relationship with Michael Jackson and had Michael Jackson around his kids all the time and, you know, defended him when that stuff was going down.

[David Remnick]

You ever talked politics with the president,

[Dana White]

call the guy a racist is crazy. He's not a racist.

[David Remnick]

Look, I don't want to go on endlessly about Donald Trump because, you know, then that's all we'll do. But when he puts out a video that shows the Obamas as apes and then won't even apologize for it, you don't get the willies from that.

[Dana White]

No, I've been around the guy so much and.

[David Remnick]

But that doesn't give you pause, Dana, as far as what about his views of. Just about his way he talks about other human beings, much less race.

[Dana White]

But if that's the way he. If he was that type of a person. First of all, I became friends with this guy, never even imagining that he would be the President of the United States someday. And if he was that type of person, I would never associate with that type of a person, no matter who he was or who he thinks he is.

[David Remnick]

But if he does that, how is he not that kind of person?

[Dana White]

He's not.

[David Remnick]

Do you know something that I know? What you're telling me is that you kind of know. Of course, you know him better personally, but he's the most transparent personality we have in public life. He talks to the press all the time. He's on social media all the time. Seems sometimes there's nothing that we don't know about. Him.

[Dana White]

Very true.

[David Remnick]

So he's almost as apparent to me as he is to you.

[Dana White]

And I don't, I didn't, I don't know about the Obama thing. To speak, you know, to speak on. I've never seen it. I didn't know that. But I can tell you this. He's not a racist, he's not a fascist. He loves this country. And if you're an American race, religion, whatever it is, President Trump is on your team, that I guarantee you there's

[David Remnick]

another person you have a very close relationship with. In fact, you hired him as an announcer, color commentator, as Joe Rogan. Tell me about him, because I listen to him from time to time. I've written about him, but he's pretty. Now that he's hugely famous, he's kind of protective of himself and his brand. Tell me about your relationship with him.

[Dana White]

So when we bought the company, the company was based here in New York. So I flew from Vegas to New York, got into the office, and I had to start cleaning out the office. And, you know, there were videotapes everywhere. So I had to figure out what was important to send back to Vegas and what I was going to throw away. So I literally watched hundreds of tapes. And one of the tapes that I popped in, the way that Joe spoke about the UFC and how fighters in the UFC would match up against some of these Hollywood action stars, I was like, this guy's great. This is exactly who I need.

[David Remnick]

Because his talent is.

[Dana White]

What, what's so his talent is he's a martial artist.

[David Remnick]

Right.

[Dana White]

Black belt and jiu jitsu. So. So the, the hardest part in, in selling this thing, the fertitas. And I knew everybody understands the standup punching and kicking everybody gets, but as soon as it hits the ground, people have no idea what's going on.

[David Remnick]

What do you mean?

[Dana White]

As far as setting up submissions, like you said, the sleeper holds.

[David Remnick]

So it's more hidden and more complicated.

[Dana White]

Yeah, yeah. The technical side of the ground game. Joe was brilliant and he's a really good speaker, so he could walk you through what was happening seconds before it even happened. And he was great at speaking publicly about the ufc.

[Narrator/Ad Voice]

UFC commentator and all round personality, Joe Rogan.

[Dana White]

Joe, let me start with you. Will mixed martial arts peak and fall like kickboxing, or will it become a

[Narrator/Ad Voice]

permanent part of the sports culture?

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I certainly think it's a permanent part of the sports culture. It's a much more exciting sport than any of the other combat sports that are out there right now. And that's why it's here. And that's why it's the fastest growing sport in the world.

[Dana White]

So when we first bought the company, I flew all over the country, meeting with editors of newspapers, because, remember, newspapers were the king then, right? So all these guys were 60 to 65 years old that I was talking to. All they cared about was ball and stick sports and sometimes boxing, you know what I mean? And the truth of the matter was there was no room for UFC in the papers, so I had to buy my way onto radio. Radio was still radio, very relevant then. So we would do these satellite radio tours, and what we learned is fighters are not good radio, all right? They'd show up late, they'd still sound like they were sleeping. There was nothing exciting. So me and Joe Rogan had to do all these radio tours. Now we're on the West Coast. We had to wake up at three o' clock in the morning because they're going to drop us into the East coast at 6 o' clock drive time. So then we'd go East Coast, Midwest, and then the tour would end on the West Coast. Our start all started on radio.

[David Remnick]

So he went. He worked for you for quite a while. And then he obviously has his podcast, which is gigantic. My understanding is that you were instrumental in getting him to endorse Donald Trump this last time around. Tell me that story.

[Dana White]

Yeah, so I tried to connect him and Trump for, like, probably six years.

[David Remnick]

Was Rogan wary of Trump in some way?

[Dana White]

Why? Rogan didn't want to be political. He did not want to get into politics. He did not want to be political. And his thing was all. But then he had Bernie Sanders on.

[David Remnick]

That's right. He was kind of pro Bernie Sanders, very.

[Dana White]

And. And even when I talk to him about Trump going on the podcast, he says, well, okay, well, I'm gonna invite Kamala, too. Yeah, cool. Get it. Love it. And early on, I started telling the President, if you stay on Fox and only Fox, you're gonna lose, because most of the people on Fox are already voting for you. And every other network says horrible things about you. You gotta start getting into podcasts.

[David Remnick]

And who was he gonna reach when he goes on Joe Rogan, in your view?

[Dana White]

Well, it wasn't just Joe Rogan. It was other podcasters, which he was picking me up in Las Vegas, and we were flying to Arizona for a rally. And there's a group called the Nelk Boys that I had created a relationship with. They're young kids that do pranks, and they're YouTubers, influencers, and I called Jared Kushner, and I said, I want to bring this group of kids, the Nelk Boys, on. On Air Force One, with us to. To. To Arizona. And Jared Kushner says, well, you're asking them that. I'm not. And so I called him, and he said, yeah, let's. Let's do it. We get in there, and these guys were all excited because they're. They're Trump fans, and, you know, they're kids, so they're, you know, at one point, he looks like, at me, and he's like, are you kidding me right now? Are you serious? And we're all in there taking pictures to his brilliance. We go to the rally. He does the rally, and he's leaving the stage, and the YMCA thing's playing, and he sees one of the kids, whose name is Steve will do it, and he's going crazy. The President calls him up on stage with him, and the whole crowd erupts, and they start doing the YMCA thing. It was the most viral thing on the Internet that day. And then he got it. The power of these kids that most people don't know.

[David Remnick]

Right.

[Dana White]

You know, the media is all starting to get into it now, which. Right.

[David Remnick]

It's not 60 Minutes. It's not mainstream news.

[Dana White]

By the time the media catches up, it's, you know. Yeah. So we. Then we got him on their podcast, and the podcast did something like 8 million views in four hours. He got it.

[David Remnick]

If I understand, you called Rogan as the campaign between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump was winding down. You called Rogan, I think, and you said, you're gonna endorse or not? What happened?

[Dana White]

Yes.

[David Remnick]

Tell me about that conversation.

[Dana White]

I was flying to Mar a Lago, me and Frank Fertitta, for election night, and he had done the podcast, and the podcast was blowing up, pulling huge numbers, and I text him and said, are you voting for Trump? And he said, yes. I said, then endorse. Why have you not endorsed him?

[David Remnick]

What'd he say?

[Dana White]

He said, I'm just busy. I'm this, I'm that.

[David Remnick]

I'm busy.

[Dana White]

Yeah.

[David Remnick]

He said, I'm busy. Yeah, please. So what happened?

[Dana White]

He endorsed you?

[David Remnick]

Think so. That was you? It's on you.

[Dana White]

Is it on me?

[David Remnick]

But you gave him the extra shove.

[Dana White]

Yeah, well, I had been working on him for a few years, so.

[David Remnick]

Now, these days, I'm sure you've noticed, he's pretty critical of Trump. Now, he was thrilled to see him endorse hallucinogens and ibogaine. Ibogaine. But he's been very tough on him on a number of issues, including ice, the war in Iran. Do you agree with Rogan on this?

[Dana White]

I think that anybody who is the President of the United States, you're never gonna agree with 100% of what they do.

[David Remnick]

But what do you disagree with. With Donald Trump?

[Dana White]

Me and Donald Trump are friends.

[David Remnick]

I get. So you have this.

[Dana White]

You're saying I don't have a transactional relationship with Donald Trump, but you don't

[David Remnick]

want to express any disagreement, be honest with me. Between on the air.

[Dana White]

No, it's not that. I just told you before. I wish I could take his Twitter away sometimes in the past. I know who this guy is.

[David Remnick]

And do you agree with them on Iran?

[Dana White]

I don't know. I mean, I'm not a political guy. I'm not a political guy.

[David Remnick]

Speaking at the conventions, you're at the triumphant victory party.

[Dana White]

And what did I say? What did I say when I was at those?

[David Remnick]

No, they were congratulatory. They were personal, for sure. They weren't policy oriented speeches.

[Dana White]

They were absolutely personal speeches. They weren't political in any way, shape or form.

[David Remnick]

It would be disloyal. You're saying what would be to criticize him in any way?

[Dana White]

No, no, no. Not to criticize him. And I'm not saying that I agree with all his policies.

[David Remnick]

But you want to keep that general, not specific is what you're saying.

[Dana White]

Me personally? Yeah. You know what I do? I can control my little world that I live in in my bubble. My employees, my fighters, my family and my friends.

[David Remnick]

You're about to have an extraordinary event in Washington. You're Gonna celebrate the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence with a UFC fight event on the White House lawn. And I've heard the weigh ins may take place at the Lincoln Memorial. Is that true?

[Dana White]

Correct.

[David Remnick]

Tell me about that event, its origins and what you hope to do.

[Dana White]

Yeah, so we were at a fight, and I can't remember if it was in New Jersey or Miami. We being me and the president, and he leans over to me in the middle of the fight and goes, we should do a fight at the White House. I said, yes, yes, we should. I'm in, I'm in. And he's like, I think it would be great to have an event, you know, for America's 250th. And so literally that was a Saturday. On Monday, the White House started calling, saying, let's start getting the logistics and

[David Remnick]

you're in charge, set up and how's it gonna Work. Who are you gonna have fight?

[Dana White]

So every fight actually means something and matters in the Division 2 world titles on the line. And stylistically, it should be a great fight.

[David Remnick]

What's it gonna look like? I've seen sketches.

[Dana White]

Yeah.

[David Remnick]

So it's like a fight in outer space with the White House there.

[Dana White]

So here's what happened. And the reason that it looks like that is I don't want to see a light, a screen, a microphone. All I want to see is the White House, the entire White House and the monument if the fight goes the other way. So we had to build this thing that we are calling the Claw. It is the lighting grid.

[David Remnick]

And how many people are going to be in the stands around it?

[Dana White]

So there will be a little over 4,000. The president has a thousand tickets, I have 200 tickets, and Ari Emanuel has 200 tickets. And the rest are going to all the different branches of the military of the 4,000 people that will be there. And then in the Ellipse, which is a park right across the street from the White house, there'll be 85,000 people.

[David Remnick]

So you're gonna. How are you gonna broadcast this?

[Dana White]

So we just signed a new seven year deal with Paramount plus and all of our content is there.

[David Remnick]

Do you notice people on the other side of the aisle, Democrats, liberals, trying to show up at UFC fights, befriend you, or are you concerned that you have a kind of partisan image?

[Dana White]

No, we haven't had anybody.

[David Remnick]

But why do you suppose that is?

[Dana White]

I would never disrespect or turn anybody away. I get that.

[David Remnick]

I get that. But it's interesting to see them show up at Joe Rogan's microphone and they might go to a baseball game or might go to a World Series game or an NBA playoff game, but they're keeping their distance from ufc.

[Dana White]

Yeah, I don't think they're keeping their distance. I think that the difference with President Trump is he was a day one fan. I mean, this guy's been a fan since day one. Gave us that opportunity to come to the Taj Mahal. And you saw it with Obama. Obama's a fan of the NBA, so he showed up at NBA games and not ufc. Yeah. And has Obama been serious, too? I mean, Bush is a baseball fan.

[David Remnick]

No, I know, but has Obama ever showed up at a UFC fight? I'm just curious.

[Dana White]

No, no. But at the inauguration, I was sitting behind all the ex presidents.

[David Remnick]

I saw that.

[Dana White]

Yeah. And there was some things that went out online that said, oh, look at Dana, Mad Dog and Obama and all this other stuff, President Obama turned around and said to me, congratulations on all your success. I'm really happy for you. And I said, thank you, Mr. President.

[David Remnick]

That must have made you feel good.

[Dana White]

Yeah, it was great. Yeah.

[David Remnick]

Ufc president and CEO dana white. This is the new yorker radio hour. Stick around.

[Radiolab Host]

Are you hungry for some great investigative journalism that sounds like music, then Radiolab might be the show for you. Radiolab began over 20 years ago as an exploration of science, philosophy and ethics. The show has since expanded to become a platform for some of the best long form journalism and storytelling you'll hear today. Join Jad, Lulu Miller and myself, Latif Nasser, as we investigate stories that provoke delight and ask you to completely change the way you view the world. You can find Radiolab wherever you get podcasts.

[David Remnick]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. We'll return to my conversation now with UFC President Dana White. He made headlines recently for attending a different kind of DC event. He was at the White House Correspondents dinner where a would be shooter was taken down by Secret Service. And White's reaction to it all was unusual.

[Dana White]

They were screaming, get down. I didn't get down. It was awesome. I literally took every minute of it in and it was pretty crazy.

[David Remnick]

Unique experience.

[Dana White]

Experience.

[David Remnick]

Here's the rest of my conversation with Dana White. You were just at the White House correspondence dinner and you were quoted as saying, and I don't want to take this out of context, I'd let you tell the story. You said it was awesome. Now that could have been. It was pretty horrible. What did you mean by it was awesome?

[Dana White]

So we had. I was sitting there talking to Pete Hegseth.

[David Remnick]

The Secretary of Defense.

[Dana White]

Yes.

[David Remnick]

Or war, depending on your.

[Dana White]

And you know, we were talking about all this fascinating stuff, and all of

[David Remnick]

a sudden you can't go that fast. What was the fascinating stuff?

[Dana White]

You were talking about Iran and you know, and what's going on over there?

[David Remnick]

What was he telling you?

[Dana White]

I'll leave that alone.

[David Remnick]

So I make a living at this.

[Dana White]

I understand, sir, I understand. All of a sudden you start hearing just crashing like plates and dishes and glasses and turn around and what looked like 50 Secret Service guys kicking tables over, running on the top of tables, and they're screaming, everybody got on the ground. And I was like, oh my God. Then I watched them pull Vance and Trump off the stage. They clear the stage and then literally the entire stage are guys with guns with lights on them pointed at us. Now the Secret Service guys are coming toward our table. I was the first table in front of the stage. And we don't know what's going on. Is there a shooter? Is there a bomb? And just the adrenaline in your body and mine anyway, was off the charts. I mean, it was. They're saying, get down, get down. First of all, I'm never a get down kind of guy, okay? That's never going to happen. If there's something going on here, I got a bad news for my family. It's going to be a closed casket, okay? Because I'm not. I'm not getting shot in the back, laying on the ground. And these guys came in and how fast they moved through this place, it was just now being another man. Tell me the greatest movie you ever saw with that. With those type. Just on steroids. I mean, it was.

[David Remnick]

Now, Dana, it wasn't a movie.

[Dana White]

I know. Which made it even greater. And when it was over, I was like, for four hours, I was bouncing off the walls. I was just.

[David Remnick]

And what did Hegseth do? The fact that Hegseth. They dragged off.

[Dana White]

Let me tell you what Hegseth didn't do. He didn't get on the ground either. He was sitting right next to me, and then his wife was with him, and then he ended up taking his wife out of there.

[David Remnick]

But you stayed.

[Dana White]

Oh, yeah. Well, I had to stay. I was dragging you up.

[Donald Trump]

Yeah, nobody dragged me up.

[Dana White]

Yeah, we had to stay in there. And I'll tell you this, too. So you had the who's who from politics, the who's who from the media, and the who's who in business in this room, and lots of far left liberal media, which were a lot of women. None of these women were screaming. None of these women were getting overly excited about this thing. And then when it was over, and we knew that the threat was over, everybody just started getting together and talking. It was pretty badass and pretty impressive.

[David Remnick]

You weren't scared at all?

[Dana White]

Never.

[David Remnick]

Not even for Trump's sake or.

[Dana White]

No, they had the.

[David Remnick]

You thought that was.

[Dana White]

They had them out of there pretty quick.

[David Remnick]

What did you think Trump was gonna say that night about the press?

[Dana White]

Well, he tried to come back. He wanted to finish it. He wanted to do, you know, the event, and Secret Service wouldn't let him. You know, I'm sure there were a lot of far left women in there that probably don't like me or, you know, or think that I, you know,

[David Remnick]

what counts for far left for you? What do you mean?

[Dana White]

You know, in the media, cnn, we all got together after that, and everybody was talking and there's just this level of camaraderie and just that, holy shit, what we just went through kind of thing, and the fact that you could experience something like that and nobody got hurt, but to be in it and see it play out like you would see in a movie, but actually experience it was hopefully a one of one, but an incredible experience.

[David Remnick]

Have you talked to President Trump since then?

[Dana White]

I was with him last night. I had dinner with him last night.

[David Remnick]

And how'd that dinner go? What did you talk about?

[Dana White]

It was great. Well, there were other people at the. He opened the Rose Garden last night, and he had his first dinner out there. I flew in and had dinner with him and then flew here.

[David Remnick]

What are you talking about?

[Dana White]

You know, he and I just talk about anything that you would normally talk to your friend about. What's new? How's the family movies? How you been? He looked great. He looks like he's in. In good shape right now.

[David Remnick]

So you don't buy the business of. He's, you know, he's around 80, and it's not easy being president. It's not easy being 80. And then his health is lousy. You don't. You don't see that?

[Dana White]

His health is far from lousy. Far from lousy. And this isn't the Biden, you know, buddies of his backing him up, saying he's whatever. He looks like he's in better shape than the last time I saw him. And, you know, he was on point last night.

[David Remnick]

Do you worry about his presidency? His popularity is at a record low. Record low for other precedents, too. Where do you think he is at this point?

[Dana White]

You know, I think that he's got three more years left, and again, two

[David Remnick]

and a half, but who's counting?

[Dana White]

You judge him when it's over, when his run is over and he moves on, and you look back at what he accomplished and what he's done. You know, I think there's a lot of things that he's obviously never gonna get credit for because, you know, if you don't like him, you don't like him.

[David Remnick]

But what do you give him credit for as president?

[Dana White]

Securing our borders. I mean, how do you not give him credit for that? The Middle East. Look at the work he did in the Middle east during his first term.

[David Remnick]

And you're referring to the Abraham Accords.

[Dana White]

Yeah, of course.

[David Remnick]

And now.

[Dana White]

Yeah. I mean, the Middle east is a tricky place to navigate, and I think he does a better job than most.

[David Remnick]

I get the sense, Dana, that to some degree, you'll Be glad not to have to answer questions about Donald Trump when he's out of office.

[Dana White]

No, I think that you want to

[David Remnick]

be a loyal friend. No, no, no. And when it comes to the specifics of his politics, you'd rather. I get it.

[Dana White]

No.

[David Remnick]

Am I wrong?

[Dana White]

No, not at all.

[David Remnick]

Go ahead.

[Dana White]

People can ask me about Donald Trump for the rest of my life, and I'll tell you all the great things that I love about this guy. What I'll be happy to be out of is politics. Yeah. I don't want to talk about politics. Whether they're his, Obama's, this guy, that guy, none of them.

[David Remnick]

Now, you made a huge deal with the UFC.

[Dana White]

Huge deal.

[David Remnick]

How much did you come away with?

[Dana White]

7.7 billion.

[David Remnick]

You personally?

[Dana White]

Oh, no, no, no, no. The company, yeah.

[David Remnick]

And how about you?

[Dana White]

Yeah, I do really well. I do really well.

[David Remnick]

Are you a billionaire now? No, no. Close. And you?

[Dana White]

Recently, I spend too much money. I'll never be a billionaire.

[David Remnick]

It's really funny, but I've watched you play poker on television and other games of chance, and the bets on the table are in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, and sometimes on a single bet, over a million bucks if they'll take the bet.

[Dana White]

Right.

[David Remnick]

Are you out of your mind?

[Dana White]

Yes.

[David Remnick]

You're married, right?

[Dana White]

Yes.

[David Remnick]

How does your wife feel about these bets?

[Dana White]

Yeah, you know, my wife's doing okay, too. You know, we don't have a lot to complain about.

[David Remnick]

No. But you. That in the end, the house wins, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dana White]

And in the end, you only live once. I just went to the Kentucky Derby for the first time with my. With my wife and kids. And did you put down a bet? I did, yeah.

[David Remnick]

How'd you do?

[Dana White]

I didn't do. Well. I didn't do. I don't.

[David Remnick]

How did you put down.

[Dana White]

I put down 70,000.

[David Remnick]

Now, how big is gambling in your line of business? With ufc, it's big.

[Dana White]

Yeah. I mean, betting on fights, sports betting, period, is massive right now. I do not sports bet, though.

[David Remnick]

But how do you ensure. How do you keep it clean? How do you keep it on the up and up?

[Dana White]

Yeah, we've had those problems, not with the mob or any of that kind of stuff, but we've had new versions, a couple of betting issues. Yeah. But we have a company called US Integrity that watches this type of stuff.

[David Remnick]

That's a private company that they let us know whenever the state doesn't get involved.

[Dana White]

No. So we had an issue where we saw some irregular betting going on.

[David Remnick]

Right.

[Dana White]

And we call the FBI.

[David Remnick]

So Tell me, tell me the story. What does irregular betting mean in this context?

[Dana White]

It means when you have a fight that isn't like the main event and the line starts to move a lot,

[David Remnick]

but that's the indicator in fighting that the line moves. So there's the suspicion that somebody's about

[Dana White]

to throw a fight 100%. There's something fishy going on when a, when an undercard fight and a line

[David Remnick]

starts moving, particularly the undercard, not, not the headliner.

[Dana White]

Yeah. Because the headliners are very high. Prof. And lots of people are betting on it. And, you know, it can happen there, too, but it's a lot more noticeable when it happens on a prelim fight.

[David Remnick]

Now, you're also in the boxing business. You've just recently launched a new boxing company called Zufa, Zufa Zufamine, by the

[Dana White]

way, to fight in Italian.

[David Remnick]

Oh, okay.

[Dana White]

Yeah.

[David Remnick]

My impression has been that with some exceptions in recent years, boxing is not, certainly not what it was in the 50s and 60s and 70s, 80s or

[Dana White]

90s or 80s or 90s.

[David Remnick]

Is boxing declining? And if so, why are you getting into it?

[Dana White]

Yeah, I think that boxing has been broken for a long time for a lot of different reasons. And I love the sport. And I've always talked about jumping in and trying to sort of put my spin on boxing and try to see what I could do with it. And everything in life is about timing. And the timing just worked out, you know, in the last year. And so far, so good. I'm having fun with it. What I want to do is try to rip it apart, build it from the ground up and see what I can do with it over the next, you know, five years.

[David Remnick]

Got it. All right. I hope you come back. This was fun.

[Dana White]

I'd love to. Thanks for having me.

[David Remnick]

Dana White, the president and CEO of the Ultimate Fighting Championship. David, I'm David Remnick. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

[Narrator/Producer]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Mike Kutchman, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul and Ursula Sommer, with guidance from Emily Botine. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Chorina Endowment Fund.

[David Remnick]

I'm Earlonne Woods.

[Narrator/Producer]

I'm Nigel Poor. We're the hosts and creators of ear hustle from PRX's Radiotopia.

[David Remnick]

When we met, I was doing time at San Quentin State Prison in California,

[Narrator/Producer]

and I was coming in as a volunteer. The stories we tell are probably not what people expect from a prison podcast,

[David Remnick]

like cooking meals in the prison cell,

[Narrator/Producer]

keeping little pets, prison nicknames, and trying to be a parent from inside.

[David Remnick]

Stories about life on the inside shared by those who live it.

[Narrator/Producer]

Find Ear Hustle wherever you get your podcasts.