Podcast Summary: "Thomas McGuane and Callan Wink Go Fishing"

The New Yorker Radio Hour
Host: David Remnick
Guests: Thomas McGuane & Callan Wink
Date: July 24, 2018
Length: ~20 minutes

Overview

This episode offers a lyrical and thoughtful immersion into a summer day on Montana’s legendary Yellowstone River, where two acclaimed writers—Thomas McGuane (the literary veteran) and Callan Wink (the emerging talent)—go fishing and reflect on the intertwined crafts of writing, guiding, and living in the American West. Through fly-casting and conversation, McGuane and Wink explore their creative processes, the mythology and baggage of “Western writing,” and the deep roots of their friendship and influences.

The mood is relaxed and gently comedic, driven by shared nostalgia, wit, and a river’s unhurried pace. Listeners are treated to reflections on storytelling, discipline, loss, and the quirks of literary life—punctuated with fly-fishing lore and riverside banter.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. On the Art and Practice of Fiction Writing

[01:01–09:53]

• The State of the Short Story and Novel:

  • McGuane laments “good short story writers turning into novelists” and claims, “the American short story is getting radically better than it’s ever been, and the novel’s getting radically worse than it’s ever been.” (McGuane, 01:24)
  • Wink responds by sharing his aspiration to write a good novel, confessing, “I enjoy writing [short stories]. I don’t particularly enjoy reading them. … I like to read novels, so I really want to write a good one.” (Wink, 01:52)

• Writing Discipline:

  • Both discuss the importance of habitual practice. McGuane observes, “the best reason for having regular work hours is just to not beat yourself up when you try to start up again.” (McGuane, 06:49)
  • Wink adds, “when I have a good stint of doing it a lot, then...it just all becomes easier.” (Wink, 06:25)

• Creative Process and Improvisation:

  • McGuane quotes Cheever: “all fiction writing is basically improvisatory.” (McGuane, 08:32)
  • Stories sometimes “come out dead easy. Almost finished, you know?” (Wink, 07:13) but more often require struggle and revision.

• Procrastination and Ideas:

  • McGuane muses, “the kind of waiting for a good idea is one of the many subtle forms procrastination takes.” (McGuane, 09:23)
  • Wink agrees, acknowledging the guilt that comes with not writing.

• Lifelong Dedication:

  • Even at 76, McGuane admits, “If I don’t write, I just feel like my life is, you know, just—I’m throwing it away.” (McGuane, 09:53)
  • Wink aspires: “I hope I still have some of that left.” (Wink, 10:16)

2. The Writer as Westerner—and Breaking the Mold

[11:00–13:44]

• Imposed Western Identity:
  • Wink asks if McGuane feels branded a “Western writer.” McGuane: “I know, and I don’t really want it.” (McGuane, 12:08)
  • He critiques earlier Western writing as “almost like land claiming… a kind of ersatz nativism that I found kind of tiresome.” (McGuane, 12:17)
  • McGuane points out only a small percentage of Montana’s people are ranchers, yet “your story’s supposed to be kind of ranch stories… But that’s changing.” (McGuane, 13:03)
  • The real West, and its real people, are more varied than the myth.

3. Fishing as Metaphor and Ritual

[03:01–18:48]

• River Reflections:

  • Wink and McGuane banter about fishing conditions, river lore, and technique: “The Yellowstone is interesting… It never runs perfectly clear… It always carries some sediment…” (Wink, 03:29)
  • The actual catching isn’t just the point—fishing is background for storytelling, and often metaphoric.

• Camaraderie and Life as a Guide:

  • Wink describes clients and mishaps, noting, “No one fell in,” as a standard for a successful trip. (Wink, 18:52 & 19:00)
  • McGuane reflects on hiding his writing work: “If you were in the house, you were a shirker. …I would sneak to do my writing where no one could catch me at it.” (McGuane, 11:00)

4. Remembering Jim Harrison and Literary Friendship

[14:23–18:29]

• Stories of Jim Harrison:

  • McGuane reminisces: “I knew Jim Harrison from the time we were in school together. …He was an irresistible guy…a real, real driven lover of everything about literature…also loved the outdoors.” (McGuane, 14:23)
  • Wink shares how Harrison cared more about riverside meals than landing fish: “His main concerns were around what we were gonna have for lunch.” (Wink, 15:02)

• Correspondence and Loss:

  • McGuane notes, “Not having Jim to write to is a hardship. …Every week at the least [they’d write], but usually more.” (McGuane, 16:37)
  • The possibility of publishing their letters is raised, with McGuane joking about heavy editing to omit “disreputable things.” (McGuane, 17:22)

• A Literary Anecdote:

  • McGuane reveals Harrison took “Legends of the Fall” as a title from him: “[Harrison] liked the title, so he just took it. …But what he did with it was way more than what I was going to do.” (McGuane/Wink, 17:44–18:16)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On short stories and novels:

  • “The American short story is getting radically better than it’s ever been, and the novel’s getting radically worse than it’s ever been.” (McGuane, 01:24)

• On writing through habit:

  • “The best reason for having regular work hours is just to not beat yourself up when you try to start up again.” (McGuane, 06:49)

• On literary identity:

  • “I know, and I don’t really want [the brand of a Western writer]...only like 5% of Montanans are ranchers. But there’s been a feeling for a long time, you know, your story’s supposed to be kind of ranch stories.” (McGuane, 12:08 & 13:03)

• On the rich mundanity of riverside life:

  • “No one fell in.” (Wink, 18:52)
  • “If you were in the house, you were a shirker… I would sneak to do my writing where no one could catch me at it.” (McGuane, 11:00)

• On the endurance of literary friendship:

  • “Not having Jim to write to is a hardship. I have to be honest about that.” (McGuane, 16:37)

• On literary theft as homage:

  • “He liked the title, so he just took it: Legends of the Fall.” (McGuane, 17:44)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:15–01:01 – Introduction by David Remnick; setting the scene and introducing the writers and context.
• 01:01–09:53 – In-depth discussion about short stories, their reading and writing habits, and their creative challenges.
• 11:00–13:44 – On being labeled as “Western writers,” challenging clichés and discussing the evolution of the region’s literature.
• 14:23–18:29 – Reminiscences about Jim Harrison, literary friendships, and Harrison’s legacy.
• 18:48–19:31 – Wrapping up the river trip with lighthearted anecdotes and parting thoughts.

Tone and Style

The conversation is casual, wry, and insightful, with humor and an undercurrent of deep respect—for the craft, the landscape, and each other. Fishing serves as both context and metaphor for their elusive, improvisatory pursuit of meaning on and off the page.

For Further Exploration

• Read stories by Thomas McGuane and Callan Wink in The New Yorker
• Explore the letters and works of Jim Harrison

This summary covers the heart of a rich and leisurely conversation between two kindred spirits on the river, offering insight into the writing life, the meaning of place, and enduring literary friendships.