Tracee Ellis Ross on Being a “Black-ish” Woman and Jon Hamm Gets His Life Back from Don Draper

Summary

The New Yorker Radio Hour — Episode Summary

Episode Title: Tracee Ellis Ross on Being a “Black-ish” Woman and Jon Hamm Gets His Life Back from Don Draper
Date: January 9, 2018
Host: David Remnick
Interviewers: Susan Morrison, Doreen St. Felix
Guests: Tracee Ellis Ross, Jon Hamm

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Episode Overview

In this episode, two standout conversations from the New Yorker Festival take center stage. First, Tracee Ellis Ross discusses her groundbreaking role as Dr. Rainbow Johnson on ABC’s "Black-ish,” the nuances of portraying a complex Black woman on television, and her own journey of self-acceptance. Then, Jon Hamm sits down to talk about his life post-"Mad Men,” how the character of Don Draper changed his life, and his passion for comedy. Both interviews offer candid insights into breaking stereotypes, career challenges, and the responsibilities of representation.

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I. Tracee Ellis Ross: Challenging Stereotypes in "Black-ish"

[Start: 00:35]

A. Reimagining the Family Sitcom

• Host David Remnick introduces Tracee Ellis Ross as a trailblazer on "Black-ish," a show that blends familiar sitcom structure with content that directly tackles issues faced by Black American families.
• Emphasis on the show's commitment to exploring not just race, but also gender roles and identity, particularly through Ross's character, Dr. Rainbow Johnson.

B. Episode Preview: “Being Bow-racial”

[01:33 – 04:18]

• Susan Morrison introduces a pivotal "Black-ish" episode focusing on Rainbow Johnson’s reaction to her son dating a white girl.
  • "It was a really interesting and fun reaction that gave birth to an episode and some subject matter that is not normally talked about on television." — Tracee Ellis Ross [02:04]
• The episode subverts expectations by making Rainbow—not Dre—the character who struggles, opening a conversation about racial identity and internalized bias.

C. Feminism, Intersectionality, and TV Representation

[04:18 – 05:53]

• Ross highlights the show’s feminist through-line:
  • "This is not a character or a woman who is just a wife, who is just a doctor, who is just a mom. She is all of those things." — Tracee Ellis Ross [04:34]
• She emphasizes the importance of presenting multidimensional women and challenges the notion that such portrayals are “modern”:
  • “There's nothing modern about it. Like, we've been doing it forever.” — Tracee Ellis Ross [08:42]
• Ross routinely advocates in the writers’ room to push back against gendered "lady chores" and stock roles for women.

Notable Moment:

Ross notes how rarely black women are recognized as leads in comedy, prompting her advocacy for deeper, diverse portrayals:

• “I have seen black women and women being the leads in our lives all over the place, but that being represented on television, not so much.” — Tracee Ellis Ross [09:34]

D. The Challenge of Playing a Character with Different Politics

[06:44 – 09:34]

• Ross discusses the internal conflict of embodying Rainbow’s perspectives—especially when they diverge from her own, citing the police brutality episode as particularly tough:
  • "I'm not somebody who keeps my mouth shut… but that was a really interesting opportunity for me to try something different." — Tracee Ellis Ross [07:00]
• She sees such roles as a chance for self-exploration and for fostering rich, unresolved conversations with viewers.

E. Comedy, Stereotypes, and Authenticity

[09:59 – 10:43]

• Morrison and Ross discuss how Black women are typecast in television and the lack of space for them in expressive, physical comedy.

• Ross's comedic expressiveness is celebrated as a refreshing counter-narrative.

  • “We women are many things. We people are many things. None of us are alike. And I think it is the responsibility of artists to really be sharing humanity and that texture and what that looks like.” — Tracee Ellis Ross [10:43]

F. Upbringing, Family, and Owning Her Identity

[11:43 – 15:22]

• Ross recounts childhood stories about her vibrant personality and her mother's supportive parenting:
  • “Did you get them all out? And I'd be like, I don't think so… I'd have to go back out and get more out and then come back.” — Tracee Ellis Ross, joking about "getting the Wiggles out" [11:49]
• She reflects on struggling to fit social expectations and learning to embrace being "not everybody's cup of tea":
  • “I've tried to make my lips smaller, my hair smaller, my personality smaller. I push up against all of those cultural norms and all that with a sense of curiosity and like, but why?” — Tracee Ellis Ross [13:22]

Memorable Closing Reflection:

• “You wake up and you try and do your best in the time and the hours that you're given, which never seems to be enough. And then you say sorry where you can.” — Tracee Ellis Ross [15:05]

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II. Jon Hamm: Life After Don Draper

[17:28]

A. Early Life: Comedy as Survival

[17:28 – 19:17]

• Hamm shares details about his unconventional childhood, coping with his mother’s early death, and gravitating toward comedy for comfort:
  • “My mom kind of raised me till I was 10. So I was an only child. Ish. …I would go to the library a lot and check out comedy records and, you know, just devour anything I could.” — Jon Hamm [17:51]
• He reminisces about consuming “Saturday Night Live,” Monty Python, George Carlin, and more, often facilitated by a "cool babysitter" or being a latchkey kid.

B. Before Fame: Daycare, Teaching, and Persistence

[20:05 – 22:25]

• Hamm worked in daycare and taught at his alma mater, John Burroughs School, partly inspired by a lack of male role models.
  • “I worked at a daycare in college… there were no like male teachers… And I was like, that's lame. Like there should be dude teachers too.” — Jon Hamm [20:14]
• He later endowed a scholarship in his mother’s name at the school.

C. The Long Road to “Mad Men”

[22:32 – 25:00]

• Moved to LA at 25 and gave himself a five-year window to succeed as an actor:
  • “If I turn 30 and I don't… I'll just pack it up and go do something else. The market has spoken.” — Jon Hamm [22:48]
• Landed his breakout film and TV roles right as he turned 30, just before "Mad Men."

D. "Mad Men" Mania and Cultural Impact

[25:00 – 27:14]

• "Mad Men" stood out for being intelligent, slow, and nuanced, arriving during the rise of iPhones, blogs, and recap culture:
  • “It didn’t talk down to its audience and it was cryptic and it was weird and it was slow… People talked about it.” — Jon Hamm [25:00]
• The show went from niche advertisers to major brands as its prestige grew.

E. Emotional Toll and Moving Beyond Don Draper

[28:18 – 30:26]

• Hamm admits the role could be “corrosive” but found ways to separate work from personal life:
  • “I'm not the kind of person that takes stuff home with them. Part of it was just taking off. Taking off the suit and taking all that out of my hair felt… redemptive.” — Jon Hamm [28:45]
• Navigating public scrutiny and fame has been trickier than the work itself because of social media and modern celebrity.

F. Comedy, Typecasting, and Liberation

[29:53 – 32:44]

• Post-"Mad Men," Hamm didn’t want to just do the opposite but sought different, riskier roles—particularly in comedy (e.g., "30 Rock," "Bridesmaids").
  • “For me, the fun part of doing what I do is doing things that are a little bit risky, make you feel a little bit uncomfortable.” — Jon Hamm [30:13]
• Funny anecdotes about the chemistry with Kristen Wiig and Tina Fey’s famous quip:
  • "Tina Fey… wanted to poke a hole through a paper plate and look at [me] through it, like, she was looking at an eclipse." — Susan Morrison [32:44]
  • “She said that in front of me too. And I was like… What is wrong with you? I'm right here.” — Jon Hamm [32:58]

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III. Notable Quotes & Moments

Tracee Ellis Ross:

• “I'm not wife wallpaper on that show.” [08:23]
• On representation: “I have seen Black women and women being the leads in our lives all over the place, but that being represented on television, not so much.” [09:34]
• “You wake up and you try and do your best… and then you say sorry where you can.” [15:05]

Jon Hamm:

• “I loved laughing… I sought it out and kind of went and tried to find it where I could.” [18:20]
• “It was a show that had buzz… people talked about it. …We were like, somebody’s watching and they’re really rich.” [25:00]
• “For me, the fun part of doing what I do is doing things that are a little bit risky, make you feel a little bit uncomfortable.” [30:13]

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IV. Timestamps of Key Segments

• Intro & Main Theme: [00:35]
• Tracee Ellis Ross Interview Start: [01:33]
• Clip: “Being Bow-racial” (Black-ish): [01:39]
• Feminism & Representation Discussion: [04:18]
• On Role Challenges and Politics: [06:44]
• Comedy & Typecasting for Black Women: [09:59]
• Personal Upbringing Reflection: [11:43]
• Tracee Ellis Ross Interview Wrap-up: [15:22]
• Jon Hamm Interview Start: [17:28]
• Comedy Roots & Early Life: [17:28]
• Teaching and Philanthropy: [20:05]
• Struggles Before Career Breakthrough: [22:32]
• Mad Men’s Impact: [25:00]
• Moving Beyond Don Draper: [28:18]
• Comedy Roles & Industry Observations: [29:53]
• End of Hamm Interview / Notable Anecdotes: [32:44]

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V. Tone & Style

Both interviews are funny, candid, and thoughtful, marked by self-deprecation, honesty, and a commitment to authenticity. Ross’s warmth and wit shine, especially as she champions complexity in women’s stories. Hamm’s dry humor underscores both the absurdity and privilege of his career trajectory, as well as the insight he’s gained about comedy and fame.

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For more inspiring, insightful conversations, visit newyorkerradio.org.

Transcript

[Jon Hamm]

This is World Trade center bomb one world observatory. Observatory straight up the block for West Boulevard and make that right. I basically just think it would be interesting to look at the emergence of a criminal economy.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And also I'm always amazed that there.

[Susan Morrison]

Aren'T more profiles of her out there, this really subversive, strange thing in rap especially, and see what their lives are.

[Jon Hamm]

Like on both sides of the border.

[Narrator / Announcer]

From one World Trade center in Manhattan, this is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of WNYC studios and the New Yorker.

[David Remnick]

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Today we've got for you two great interviews recorded live at the New Yorker Festival. Jon Hamm talks about trying to get his life back from Don Draper. And we're going to start now with Tracee Ellis Ross, one of the stars of ABC's Blackish. It's a show that's been breaking boundaries since it went on the air in 2014. Inform. It's a family sitcom. Pretty typical mom, dad, bunch of kids, friends, wacky neighbors. But in content, it's something else. It tackles the real issues that any black family in America might talk about and deal with. And even today, that's a pretty big deal for a network show in primetime. For Tracee Ellis Ross, though, the show needed to do something else, and that was to confront some of the gender stereotypes that are more or less built into that form of show. Ross was previously a co star of the comedy Girlfriends. She sat down with the New Yorker's staff writer Doreen St. Felix at the New Yorker Festival in October.

[Susan Morrison]

So I pulled a clip and it's from Blackish. It's from this episode called Being Beau. Racial?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, season three. You know it.

[Susan Morrison]

Well, I don't want to give too much of it away before we start playing it, but basically your character, Dr. Rainbow Johnson finds out that her son has a girlfriend.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yep.

[Susan Morrison]

And Junior's a little bit of a nerd, so it could be good news. But it turns out that Rainbow has been made very upset by it for a pretty conspicuous reason.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

A conspicuous reason and also, I thought, a quite unexpected reason for the kind of woman that Beau Johnson is. Very liberal, a die hard mom, very supportive of her nerdy son, like kind of loves everything about him. So it was, I thought, a really interesting and fun reaction that gave birth to an episode and some subject matter that is not normally talked about on television.

[Susan Morrison]

Absolutely.

[Jon Hamm]

Hey, everything okay?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, everything's great.

[Jon Hamm]

Okay.

[Anthony Anderson]

And why are you chopping onions like a crazy person to mask your tears?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I don't do that.

[Anthony Anderson]

Ooh, onions. Why are you masking your tears? Does this have anything to do with Junior's new girlfriend? Junior has a girlfriend?

[Jon Hamm]

Wow, what a twist.

[Anthony Anderson]

Hold on. Wait a minute. Is it because she's white?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Dre, you're delusional.

[Anthony Anderson]

So you do see color.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Dre, that's not who I am.

[Anthony Anderson]

Or is it who you are? Please let it be who you are. Look, this is something that we could do together as we grow old. You know, some couples, they have golf. We can mistrust white people together. This could save our marriage. I'm getting so emotional.

[Susan Morrison]

So this is a very special episode of Black Ish. And I mean that in the way that term is usually applied. The first reason being that most episodes are usually told from Dre's perspective. Dre is played by Anthony Anderson, and he's Rainbow Johnson's husband. But this is the rare episode that has rainbows.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I like the way you phrase that, by the way. Oh, yeah, he's Rainbow's husband. It's usually said that I'm the wife.

[Susan Morrison]

This is a feminist talk.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Thank you.

[Susan Morrison]

So in that way, I was a little bit shocked. I was like, okay, we're gonna be listening to Rainbow's voice as narration. That's good. And anybody who watches Black Ish knows that the show. Yes, I know. We all do. It often deals with issues of identity politics. You know, there's been episodes on police brutality, the use of the N word, class issues. But this episode feels more daring.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And one of the things I find really interesting about the show that we don't often talk about because the show is called Blackish, so. And it's known that we are talking about race and identity, but the womanist, feminist storyline that is going on for my character is really interesting to me. And one of the things that is interesting for me to play is that this is not a character or a woman who is just a wife, who is just a doctor, who is just a mom. She is all of those things. And so I think this story was really interesting to me because we got to take on some of that in a very front facing way. So the episode itself is called Being Beau Racial. And we explore Beau's heritage and sort of what she comes from and her relationship to that. And I found it really interesting for many reasons, some of which were that her point of view is not my point of view and nor has it been my experience. I would not have issue if my child or my brother or my sister or anyone brought home a white girlfriend. But. But I thought it was a really interesting doorway into this subject matter. It was unexpected, and I think it's one of the things our show, the writers do incredibly well, is we usually enter these very big, heavy, sticky subjects from a direction that you wouldn't expect, that you're already kind of toppled on your heels. And like, wait, what's happening? You know, the fact that the N word episode, we entered through the youngest. Saying it in a rap song, in a talent show.

[Susan Morrison]

Gold digger.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah. You know, because it takes the things that have been normalized as and kind of throws them on their head. And in this case, that's usually Dray's point of view. That's something that he would take on. So it was so unexpected that this mother, the liberal feminist woman that Beau is, would have issue with such a thing. And then we get to kind of unpack that. And what we unpack, I think, is something that we don't usually unpack in our culture. Sort of what it is to apparently be caught between the cultures. You know, I'm a mixed woman, and. And it's always been the most extraordinary thing to me to be a part of both cultures. There's a willingness to learn how to articulate things that otherwise I wouldn't need to articulate, how to understand. The blind spots are clearer.

[Susan Morrison]

But do you get frustrated portraying a character who can sometimes out of nowhere, have a political stance that you might not have? I also read in some other interviews.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

That the police brutality episode, that was tough for me. Yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

So can you tell us about it?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Well, you know, I'm playing a character on the show that is actually the fun of it. So the police brutality episode, my character was sort of playing the audience's point of view of, like, but what if. Like, devil's advocate. But what if there are great cops or.

[Interviewer (Susan Morrison)]

I don't know.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I mean, there are, obviously, but, like, what if. I can't even remember, actually. But it was a point of view that was not mine. I had to keep my mouth shut. And I'm not somebody who keeps my mouth shut, but that was a really interesting opportunity for me to try something different. And the truth is that in hindsight, looking at the episode, it was a very important thing that my kid. That everything wasn't getting said. And I think that's a lot of what happens that is so well done on our show is that we don't say everything. So we actually leave the audience and allow them the opportunity to experience, to think, to have dialogue, to question. And not everything is answered. We're not saying this is the way you should be thinking. But to answer your question, I play a character, and that is okay with me. There are challenges at times, and what it does is it makes me, as Tracy, have to go back into my world and really figure out and explore how I feel about something so I can figure out what my point of view is so that I can bring something to camera. I work very hard to make sure that my character is bringing a full life to that show, to that story and to that family, that even though the stories are told through Dre's eyes and that every time I am in the story, I know what I. You can tell what I've been doing when I'm not in the story, because it's really important to me that I am not wife wallpaper on that show. I don't believe that that's real. And, you know, people are like, it's so modern. Like, your character's like a doctor and a mother and a wife. It's incredible. There's nothing modern about it. Like, we've been doing it forever. Kids, like, you know, so I try to bring that. Or, like, I speak up when it's things. Like, really, am I chopping vegetables again? I'm like, look at me doing lady chores. It's really fast. I mean, I say it all the time. I'm like, can't Anthony do the lady chore? You know? And Anthony's always like, yeah, why can't I do? You know, I mean. And I call it lady chores. Obviously, I'm joking, but because they're not lady chores. They're just things that happen around the house. So I'm very conscious about those things, which is a weird segue. But if I may, one of the things that was very interesting to me for how long it had been since a black woman had been nominated and lead actress in a comedy, both for Emmys and Golden Globes, is if you look back, it's like, what are the roles that we're playing? And I believe and I have seen black women and women being the leads in our lives all over the place, but that being represented on television, not so much.

[Susan Morrison]

Especially in comedy, too. I've always felt there's such a wide gap between the black women I know in my life.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yes.

[Susan Morrison]

Who are just so funny. Like, my mom is the funniest person I've ever met in my life. Maybe second out that I've met you.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, no, no. She can take it. She can have it. She can have it. You keep your mom right there.

[Susan Morrison]

But there's a way in which, when we're slotted into stories on both television and film, the stereotypical space is so tight. It doesn't give you the leeway to be able to do physical comedy, maybe, or to do expressive comedy like you with your face. You're so expressive on the show. And obviously, there have been many black women in sitcoms. There's a history that we can point to. But Rainbow does feel different.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Well, I'm glad that she feels different. I would like there to be tons more of that, and not just black women of all colors, of all shapes, of all sizes. We women are many things. We people are many things. None of us are alike. And I think it is the responsibility of artists to really be sharing humanity and that texture and what that looks like. It's the most interesting part of my life. You know, I look at all the different kinds of people that I'm around, and I think, though, that I'm conscious of bringing a fullness to Beau, and I'm conscious of bringing a joy to Beau. You know, even this week, Anthony and I shooting, for some reason, again, there was sort of an argumentative scene, and the director was like, if you could just try it. Really sort of just like, get in there. And I was like, nah, I don't always want to see that. I don't want to be the arguing wife. And although in the context of our show, that might not be the case, I'm very aware of the larger context of the images that are being portrayed and the way we're being portrayed in general on television.

[Susan Morrison]

I was watching a video interview of you where you're at the dinner table.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, where I'm at the dinner table. Okay. So when I was young, I was like this. But I didn't quite know how to wield it. It was just annoying. It was just really annoying. And. Right. Rhonda. Yeah. And I also really liked to mess with her. With Rhonda, my older sister, there's five of us. Rhonda, Tracy, Chudney, and then Ross and Evan. So at the dinner table, I would, like, sometimes be really hyper, like, really happy. So sometimes. Cause it was annoying. My mom would say, why don't you just go outside and get the Wiggles out? And we had glass doors at the dining table. And so I would be, like, outside the the door, like, bouncing around and trying to make Rhonda laugh and trying to make Chandni spit her food out or whatever. It was like, bouncing around. And then I would come back in and I would sit down and my mom would be like, did you get them all out? And I'd be like, I don't think so. And I'd have to go back out and get more out and then come back. Yeah, my grandma called it like the 8 year old. Giggles. The 10 year old. Like, it just kept going. And then it's clearly my career now.

[Susan Morrison]

But what I love about that story is it shows a real effort on your mother's part too. I'm doing something with this guy. But to encourage who you were and to not force you to be someone that you just weren't naturally.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I think you can see my mom's parenting style in all of her children because you can tell we were all raised by the same lady, but we're all so different. And. Yeah, and I think from the way she parented and also who she is as a person, you know, the courage to be who you are is a part of the messaging that I got. And I have to be honest, I can't help it. I've tried to be so many other people. It just doesn't work. Like, it just makes me feel bad and like ashamed and like, I am not everybody's cup of tea. I'm just not. And that's really. I've had to learn that that's okay because, you know, as women and culturally, we are taught, like, you want people to like you and you want to try and fit in and you want to try and be the should, like, who you think you should be. I've tried to make my lips smaller, my hair smaller, my personality smaller. I think all that is, you know, I feel like I push up against all of those sort of cultural norms and all that with a sense of curiosity and like, but why? But why really? And with that comes a lot of grief and a lot of shame and stuff that you gotta wade through. When you look at the reality of what that leaves you as a human, when you're on a path that is not the one that's advertised. I don't know, it can't be an accident that I'm here. I feel like I wake up every day, as do most people, trying to do my best. You know, I don't wake up and think I'm gonna up today, that's what I'm gonna do. See what happens. No, you wake up and you try and do your best in the time and the hours that you're given, which never seems to be enough. And then you say sorry where you can.

[Susan Morrison]

This was just Wonderful. And we, of course, at the New Yorker really, really, really appreciate you coming to the festival. Tracy, very excited.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Thank you. Thank you guys for. Thank you.

[David Remnick]

Tracee Ellis Ross, co star of Black Ish on abc. We're listening to conversations from the recent New Yorker Festival. And when we come back, Jon hand, this is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick, and this is the New Yorker Radio Hour. Next week on the show, we're going to be looking long and hard at deportation in America. The government has been ramping up efforts to round up undocumented immigrants, and it's a situation that reaches into every corner of the country. We'll see what it looks like on a dairy farm in Wisconsin and at a church in Manhattan where a family has taken refuge from enforcement agents who are waiting outside. That's next week. This week we've been listening to some of the highlights from the New Yorker Festival, where my colleague Susan Morrison recently sat down with Jon Hamm. Now, Mad Men has been over for more than two years, but it's gonna take a lot longer than that for Jon Hamm to shake the character of Don Draper, the quintessential old school man's man, if we can say that anymore. Draper was the strong, silent type. He's tall, dark, handsome. He keeps his secrets close and he drinks alone. And one thing Don Draper was not, not too often, was funny. And for Jon Hamm, getting out from under all that manly baggage has meant taking parts that make fun of his Draper mystique and play up his own comic side. And here he is with the New Yorker, Susan Morrison.

[Interviewer (Susan Morrison)]

Let's talk for a minute about the origin story of your comedy geekness. You lost your mother when you were 10 and.

[Jon Hamm]

Which is hilarious.

[Interviewer (Susan Morrison)]

No, it's not funny.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

But.

[Jon Hamm]

See, yeah.

[Interviewer (Susan Morrison)]

And had a kind of a difficult, unconventional childhood, which led you to watch a lot of comedies.

[Jon Hamm]

Yes. Why don't you talk about what? I'm kind of a weird only child hybrid. My dad was married once before my mom, and he had two daughters with his first wife who were my half sisters. And then he married my mom and they got divorced when I was 2. And so my mom kind of raised me till I was 10. So I was an only child. Ish. And then when my mom passed away, I moved in with my dad and one of my sisters was living with him at the time. The other one had gotten married and moved out. And again, this is before the Internet existed. So you had to read books and listen to albums and cassette tapes and go to the library to figure out to really get anything. We happen to live next to a university. They had an awesome library. So I would go to the library a lot and check out comedy records and, you know, just devour anything I could. That's where I first started reading Spy magazine. You know, that was, that was how you consumed culture, sort of. And I was a big. I was just like, that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to. I loved laughing. I loved when my dad would let me stay up late enough to watch Saturday Night live in the 70s when I was way too young to be watching things like that. And I sought it out and kind of went and tried to find it where I could.

[Interviewer (Susan Morrison)]

So what were the records? Were you listening to like Albert Brooks and Fireside Theater?

[Jon Hamm]

Yeah, and Monty Python, which again, that was the only way you could really see it. And Bob Newhart. I mean, George Carlin, Richard Pryor. But yeah, anything I could get my hands on. There's something about like, yeah, I was a latchkey kid. I would come home, I had babysitters all the time. And the one cool babysitter that I had, if my mom went out on a Saturday night would be like, hey, can we stay up and watch Saturday Night Live? And I look back and I was like, my babysitter was like a 13 year old boy. It's like, what? Like, wait a minute, this guy's in charge? Different times, the 80s, 70s.

[Interviewer (Susan Morrison)]

After college you went back and you taught at your high school, which you mentioned. And you also worked in daycare, which is very sweet.

[Jon Hamm]

I worked at a daycare in college and the reason I did was twofold. One, being the son of a single mom, I was in daycare basically from when I was like 5 on all the time. And I loved it. It was really fun because you got to be around a bunch of other kids. So it was like I had siblings or whatever. It was like super fun and very structured, very cool. But there were no guys, There were no like male teachers. It was all. It was a very female kind of situation. And I was like, that's, that's lame. Like there should be. There should be dude teachers too. And secondly, I. It was also the kind of the only job I could do in college because I had classes during the day and I had play rehearsals at night. So I couldn't be like a waiter or a bartender or anything because that was all at night. And I couldn't do anything like 9 to 5 job because I had class. So I had literally had this like Three to six window. And I was like, that sounds like an after school program kind of thing. And I pitched this idea to this little old lady who ran, named Pat, who ran a daycare place called Kids Depot. Not kidding. Jesus. It had like a little red train sign, Kids Depot. Weird. If you don't think too hard on it, it's not great. But I worked there for like two years and it was fantastic. And it felt nice to be able to kind of be that person that I didn't have in my life. And that's why I went back and taught at Burroughs, John Burroughs, where I went to school, is because I felt like the school had given so much to me, I wasn't in the position to write a big check and endow some scholarship, which I've done since.

[Interviewer (Susan Morrison)]

Is there a John Ham Hall?

[Jon Hamm]

No, there isn't. But there is a scholarship endowed in my mom's name, and the first recipient of that just graduated last year and he wants to be an actor. Aw. And there is a black box theater named after my first acting teacher who recently retired.

[Interviewer (Susan Morrison)]

Oh, that's great.

[Jon Hamm]

Yeah. Those are the two big things that I've done.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

So.

[Interviewer (Susan Morrison)]

So when you moved to LA after that, it took you a while to really break through. Right? I mean, you were 36 when you were cast in Mad Men, and you were working before then, but it was spotty. Right. Characterize that period of time for you.

[Jon Hamm]

Five, when I was casting. I'm sorry, I'll take care I can get at this point. I moved out to LA when I was 25, so my kind of guiding principle was, look, I don't want to be that guy who's waiting tables, losing hair, 40 years old, three credits on his resume, still calls himself an actor and is just trying to hold it together. Yeah, I can do that anywhere. So I gave myself five years. I was like, a lot can happen in five years, and positive and negative. And that's a pretty fair amount of time to really kind of give yourself a chance to figure out the city, figure out how it all works, what's it gonna be? And really kind of give yourself a fair shot. So I was like, If I turn 30 and I don't, and I'm still, you know, kind of waiting tables or whatever, then I'll just pack it up and I'll go do something else. You know, the market has spoken, so to speak. And let's not kid ourselves. Like, acting is, especially now, less so. A little bit less so then, but especially now is a young person's Game, basically. And fortunately enough, I happened to turn 30 on the set of my first film that I ever did was called We Were Soldiers. And then literally after that, the fall after that, I got my first regular part on a series, a show called the Division, which I'm sure you all watched. There's going to be a quiz that was on the Lifetime Television Network about five lady cops and me.

[Interviewer (Susan Morrison)]

Well, when Mad Men hit when you were 35, it created a frenzy. I mean, I remember that year being in a subway car on Halloween, being surrounded by 50 drunk Jones and Dons. I mean, it was just a frenzy. And there are all kinds of explanations, aside from just the goodness and quality of the show, about what that, you know, why it created that kind of story. What's your theory?

[Jon Hamm]

First of all, there was really nothing like our show. I mean, it had its elements of things that I think people could recognize, but it stood out in a way that was very helpful in separating it from what at that point was sort of an explosion of tv. And I mean, since then we've had an even more a double explosion of tv. But that was kind of the first one where it was always HBO and Showtime, they were doing their prestige television. But then in 2005 or whatever, the other networks started to do cool shows and promote them as cool shows. And they were cool shows and they got important movie stars to be in them. And ours was different. It was a show that had buzz and a show that was intelligent and it didn't talk down to its audience and it was cryptic and it was weird and it was slow and it was all these different things that people kind of didn't really know what to do with it, but they knew it was different. And people talked about it. And it, I think not for nothing coincided with the advent of the iPhone and with blog culture and recap culture. What started to happen? Our show certainly wasn't the first, but people started just writing blogs and pieces and think pieces about the show. And it had this outsized kind of cultural footprint that nobody watched it, but people loved to talk about it. And I mean, that's what it was. And it was a very interesting experience to go through that because, you know, the show sort of won awards and things out of the gate. So we knew we were a hit. But there was always the but no one watches it. The first season, our advertisers were like boner pills and that headache medicine that you put directly on your forehead. And season two, it was Mercedes Benz and Heineken. So we were like somebody's watching and they're really rich. So that's. That's kind of when we realized, like, oh, wow. Like, this is. This is happening.

[Interviewer (Susan Morrison)]

We have a little Mad Men clip we'll take a look at.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

He hate dating.

[Kristen Wiig]

Terrible at it.

[Jon Hamm]

You'll find someone. You know, you're cute as hell.

[Kristen Wiig]

Men don't exactly stop and stare in the streets.

[Jon Hamm]

Do you want that?

[Kristen Wiig]

It's not what you were supposed to say.

[Jon Hamm]

What do you care what I think?

[Kristen Wiig]

Everybody thinks I slept with you to get the job. They joke about it like it's so funny because the possibility was so remote.

[Jon Hamm]

It's not because you aren't attractive. I have to keep rules about work. I have to. You're an attractive girl, Peggy.

[Kristen Wiig]

Not as attractive as some of your other secretaries, I guess.

[Jon Hamm]

You don't want to start giving me morality lessons, do you? People do things right. What's Lizzie Moss been up to?

[Interviewer (Susan Morrison)]

Do you feel like playing a character like Don Draper costs you anything emotionally? I mean, is it corrosive to play a terrible person?

[Anthony Anderson]

You know?

[Jon Hamm]

Yes and no. I think it is. It is hard to be in that head space 24 7. But I'm not the kind of person that takes stuff home with them. You know, part of it was just taking off. Taking off the suit and taking all that out of my hair felt, you know, sort of redemptive in some way or cleansing in some way. And then you go home, you know, and you live your life. But it's hard. Part of navigating what. What the show became and navigating the success and all that stuff is the trickiest part of it. The work is great. The work is what you want to do. It's navigating the rest of it, especially in, you know, now. I don't know. I mean, maybe it wasn't as hard before. There was TMZ and social media and all this other garbage, but, like, it's. That's the challenge.

[Interviewer (Susan Morrison)]

Mad Men was just such a career defining role. I wonder if your whole acting life post Mad Men is sort of a reaction against Mad Men.

[Jon Hamm]

No, I think not necessarily. The fun thing for an actor is to be able to do different stuff. And so it wasn't necessarily that I wanted to react against and play the opposite, but I definitely wanted to just do different things. And so when, for example, Tina Fey decides, okay, hey, you want to be on 30 Rock? That's different.

[Interviewer (Susan Morrison)]

Yeah, I like that.

[Jon Hamm]

That's kind of fun. For me, the fun part of doing what I do is doing things that are a little bit risky, make you feel a little bit uncomfortable, and I've certainly been guilty of doing a lot of those things.

[Interviewer (Susan Morrison)]

Well, one of the great things about the combination of an indelible character like Don Draper and your comic skills is that you've done a lot of wonderful, what you could call comic send ups, in a way of the Don Draper type. I'm thinking of your role in Bridesmaids. Why don't we look at that clip?

[Jon Hamm]

Oh, God.

[Interviewer (Susan Morrison)]

Which I love.

[Jon Hamm]

You slept over.

[Kristen Wiig]

I did.

[Jon Hamm]

I thought we had a rule against that. Oh, I'm kidding.

[Kristen Wiig]

Oh, that was funny. You're funny in the morning.

[Jon Hamm]

But I like hanging out with you.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, yeah.

[Kristen Wiig]

I love hanging out with you. I think we get along really well, and you're so sexy, and I know.

[Jon Hamm]

Just, you know, I just have a lot coming up at work, and I just. I don't want to make promises I can't keep. You know what I mean?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Mm.

[Jon Hamm]

I know you do.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah. We're on the same page.

[Kristen Wiig]

I mean, I don't. I'm not looking for a relationship right now either. Let's just say that I just. Whatever you want to, I can do. You know, I'd rather just. I like simple, not like other girls.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Where I'm like, be my boyfriend.

[Kristen Wiig]

Unless you were like, yeah. Then I'd be like, maybe.

[Jon Hamm]

Mm.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Mm.

[Kristen Wiig]

I don't want that either.

[Jon Hamm]

Wow, this is so awkward. I really want you to leave, but I don't know how to say that, so.

[Anthony Anderson]

What the.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh.

[Interviewer (Susan Morrison)]

You guys have such great chemistry together. It's really funny.

[Jon Hamm]

That is a very weird thing to say about that scene.

[Interviewer (Susan Morrison)]

I mean, comic chemistry. Now, was this before or after you and Kristen Wiig did a lot of great stuff together on Saturday Night Live?

[Jon Hamm]

It was after. Kristen and I knew each other fairly well by this point, and she had come to me and said, I really. Oh, Annie and I wrote this great movie and we were really excited. We really want you to be in it. I was like, cool. I was like, well, you know, I'm kind of doing this show. I don't have a ton of time. And she's like, oh, we wrote a part for you. We wrote a part for you. And I was like, I read it and I was like, the first three pages are like. We're just like, it's a big sex scene. I was like, kristen.

[Interviewer (Susan Morrison)]

Now, Tina Fey is famous for saying once that Jon Hamm was so handsome that she wanted to poke a hole through a paper plate and look at him through it like, she was looking at an eclipse.

[Jon Hamm]

She said that in front of me too. And I was like, she did? What is wrong with you? I'm right here.

[Interviewer (Susan Morrison)]

So thank you all.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Thank you all for coming and thank.

[Jon Hamm]

You, thank you, thank you all for coming, putting on the suit and it's.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

So late and everything else. Thank you.

[David Remnick]

Jon Hamm at the New Yorker Festival in October 2017 with the new Yorker. Susan Morrison. Thanks for listening today. And if you haven't been to our website lately, please Visit us at newyorkerradio.org, we've just got a redesign for the new year, and if we do say so ourselves, it looks pretty good. Every episode, every segment we've ever broadcast is there and you can subscribe to our podcast so you never miss a thing. David I'm David Remnick. See you next time.

[Narrator / Announcer]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards with additional music by Alexis Cuadrado. This episode was produced with special help from the staff of the New Yorker Festival, Rhonda Sherman, Alexis Goldberg, David Ohana, Bradley Gee and Hilary Leichter Griffin. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.