The New Yorker Radio Hour — Episode Summary

Episode Title: Tracee Ellis Ross on Being a “Black-ish” Woman and Jon Hamm Gets His Life Back from Don Draper
Date: January 9, 2018
Host: David Remnick
Interviewers: Susan Morrison, Doreen St. Felix
Guests: Tracee Ellis Ross, Jon Hamm

Episode Overview

In this episode, two standout conversations from the New Yorker Festival take center stage. First, Tracee Ellis Ross discusses her groundbreaking role as Dr. Rainbow Johnson on ABC’s "Black-ish,” the nuances of portraying a complex Black woman on television, and her own journey of self-acceptance. Then, Jon Hamm sits down to talk about his life post-"Mad Men,” how the character of Don Draper changed his life, and his passion for comedy. Both interviews offer candid insights into breaking stereotypes, career challenges, and the responsibilities of representation.

I. Tracee Ellis Ross: Challenging Stereotypes in "Black-ish"

[Start: 00:35]

A. Reimagining the Family Sitcom

• Host David Remnick introduces Tracee Ellis Ross as a trailblazer on "Black-ish," a show that blends familiar sitcom structure with content that directly tackles issues faced by Black American families.
• Emphasis on the show's commitment to exploring not just race, but also gender roles and identity, particularly through Ross's character, Dr. Rainbow Johnson.

B. Episode Preview: “Being Bow-racial”

[01:33 – 04:18]

• Susan Morrison introduces a pivotal "Black-ish" episode focusing on Rainbow Johnson’s reaction to her son dating a white girl.
  • "It was a really interesting and fun reaction that gave birth to an episode and some subject matter that is not normally talked about on television." — Tracee Ellis Ross [02:04]
• The episode subverts expectations by making Rainbow—not Dre—the character who struggles, opening a conversation about racial identity and internalized bias.

C. Feminism, Intersectionality, and TV Representation

[04:18 – 05:53]

• Ross highlights the show’s feminist through-line:
  • "This is not a character or a woman who is just a wife, who is just a doctor, who is just a mom. She is all of those things." — Tracee Ellis Ross [04:34]
• She emphasizes the importance of presenting multidimensional women and challenges the notion that such portrayals are “modern”:
  • “There's nothing modern about it. Like, we've been doing it forever.” — Tracee Ellis Ross [08:42]
• Ross routinely advocates in the writers’ room to push back against gendered "lady chores" and stock roles for women.

Notable Moment:

Ross notes how rarely black women are recognized as leads in comedy, prompting her advocacy for deeper, diverse portrayals:

• “I have seen black women and women being the leads in our lives all over the place, but that being represented on television, not so much.” — Tracee Ellis Ross [09:34]

D. The Challenge of Playing a Character with Different Politics

[06:44 – 09:34]

• Ross discusses the internal conflict of embodying Rainbow’s perspectives—especially when they diverge from her own, citing the police brutality episode as particularly tough:
  • "I'm not somebody who keeps my mouth shut… but that was a really interesting opportunity for me to try something different." — Tracee Ellis Ross [07:00]
• She sees such roles as a chance for self-exploration and for fostering rich, unresolved conversations with viewers.

E. Comedy, Stereotypes, and Authenticity

[09:59 – 10:43]

• Morrison and Ross discuss how Black women are typecast in television and the lack of space for them in expressive, physical comedy.

• Ross's comedic expressiveness is celebrated as a refreshing counter-narrative.

  • “We women are many things. We people are many things. None of us are alike. And I think it is the responsibility of artists to really be sharing humanity and that texture and what that looks like.” — Tracee Ellis Ross [10:43]

F. Upbringing, Family, and Owning Her Identity

[11:43 – 15:22]

• Ross recounts childhood stories about her vibrant personality and her mother's supportive parenting:
  • “Did you get them all out? And I'd be like, I don't think so… I'd have to go back out and get more out and then come back.” — Tracee Ellis Ross, joking about "getting the Wiggles out" [11:49]
• She reflects on struggling to fit social expectations and learning to embrace being "not everybody's cup of tea":
  • “I've tried to make my lips smaller, my hair smaller, my personality smaller. I push up against all of those cultural norms and all that with a sense of curiosity and like, but why?” — Tracee Ellis Ross [13:22]

Memorable Closing Reflection:

• “You wake up and you try and do your best in the time and the hours that you're given, which never seems to be enough. And then you say sorry where you can.” — Tracee Ellis Ross [15:05]

II. Jon Hamm: Life After Don Draper

[17:28]

A. Early Life: Comedy as Survival

[17:28 – 19:17]

• Hamm shares details about his unconventional childhood, coping with his mother’s early death, and gravitating toward comedy for comfort:
  • “My mom kind of raised me till I was 10. So I was an only child. Ish. …I would go to the library a lot and check out comedy records and, you know, just devour anything I could.” — Jon Hamm [17:51]
• He reminisces about consuming “Saturday Night Live,” Monty Python, George Carlin, and more, often facilitated by a "cool babysitter" or being a latchkey kid.

B. Before Fame: Daycare, Teaching, and Persistence

[20:05 – 22:25]

• Hamm worked in daycare and taught at his alma mater, John Burroughs School, partly inspired by a lack of male role models.
  • “I worked at a daycare in college… there were no like male teachers… And I was like, that's lame. Like there should be dude teachers too.” — Jon Hamm [20:14]
• He later endowed a scholarship in his mother’s name at the school.

C. The Long Road to “Mad Men”

[22:32 – 25:00]

• Moved to LA at 25 and gave himself a five-year window to succeed as an actor:
  • “If I turn 30 and I don't… I'll just pack it up and go do something else. The market has spoken.” — Jon Hamm [22:48]
• Landed his breakout film and TV roles right as he turned 30, just before "Mad Men."

D. "Mad Men" Mania and Cultural Impact

[25:00 – 27:14]

• "Mad Men" stood out for being intelligent, slow, and nuanced, arriving during the rise of iPhones, blogs, and recap culture:
  • “It didn’t talk down to its audience and it was cryptic and it was weird and it was slow… People talked about it.” — Jon Hamm [25:00]
• The show went from niche advertisers to major brands as its prestige grew.

E. Emotional Toll and Moving Beyond Don Draper

[28:18 – 30:26]

• Hamm admits the role could be “corrosive” but found ways to separate work from personal life:
  • “I'm not the kind of person that takes stuff home with them. Part of it was just taking off. Taking off the suit and taking all that out of my hair felt… redemptive.” — Jon Hamm [28:45]
• Navigating public scrutiny and fame has been trickier than the work itself because of social media and modern celebrity.

F. Comedy, Typecasting, and Liberation

[29:53 – 32:44]

• Post-"Mad Men," Hamm didn’t want to just do the opposite but sought different, riskier roles—particularly in comedy (e.g., "30 Rock," "Bridesmaids").
  • “For me, the fun part of doing what I do is doing things that are a little bit risky, make you feel a little bit uncomfortable.” — Jon Hamm [30:13]
• Funny anecdotes about the chemistry with Kristen Wiig and Tina Fey’s famous quip:
  • "Tina Fey… wanted to poke a hole through a paper plate and look at [me] through it, like, she was looking at an eclipse." — Susan Morrison [32:44]
  • “She said that in front of me too. And I was like… What is wrong with you? I'm right here.” — Jon Hamm [32:58]

III. Notable Quotes & Moments

Tracee Ellis Ross:

• “I'm not wife wallpaper on that show.” [08:23]
• On representation: “I have seen Black women and women being the leads in our lives all over the place, but that being represented on television, not so much.” [09:34]
• “You wake up and you try and do your best… and then you say sorry where you can.” [15:05]

Jon Hamm:

• “I loved laughing… I sought it out and kind of went and tried to find it where I could.” [18:20]
• “It was a show that had buzz… people talked about it. …We were like, somebody’s watching and they’re really rich.” [25:00]
• “For me, the fun part of doing what I do is doing things that are a little bit risky, make you feel a little bit uncomfortable.” [30:13]

IV. Timestamps of Key Segments

• Intro & Main Theme: [00:35]
• Tracee Ellis Ross Interview Start: [01:33]
• Clip: “Being Bow-racial” (Black-ish): [01:39]
• Feminism & Representation Discussion: [04:18]
• On Role Challenges and Politics: [06:44]
• Comedy & Typecasting for Black Women: [09:59]
• Personal Upbringing Reflection: [11:43]
• Tracee Ellis Ross Interview Wrap-up: [15:22]
• Jon Hamm Interview Start: [17:28]
• Comedy Roots & Early Life: [17:28]
• Teaching and Philanthropy: [20:05]
• Struggles Before Career Breakthrough: [22:32]
• Mad Men’s Impact: [25:00]
• Moving Beyond Don Draper: [28:18]
• Comedy Roles & Industry Observations: [29:53]
• End of Hamm Interview / Notable Anecdotes: [32:44]

V. Tone & Style

Both interviews are funny, candid, and thoughtful, marked by self-deprecation, honesty, and a commitment to authenticity. Ross’s warmth and wit shine, especially as she champions complexity in women’s stories. Hamm’s dry humor underscores both the absurdity and privilege of his career trajectory, as well as the insight he’s gained about comedy and fame.

For more inspiring, insightful conversations, visit newyorkerradio.org.