The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: William Gibson on the End of the Future, and a Visit with Thundercat

Date: March 10, 2020
Host: David Remnick
Segments: Interview with novelist William Gibson (+ New Yorker editor Joshua Rothman); Interview with musician Thundercat (by Brianna Younger)

Overview

This episode delves into how our visions of the future have shifted, with acclaimed science fiction novelist William Gibson reflecting on why our cultural imagination has lost its sense of possibility—and how his own latest novel grapples with future shock and alternative realities. The episode then shifts gears for a warm, personal, and funny conversation with genre-blending bassist and singer Thundercat, who opens up about music, influences, vulnerability, and channeling humor and pain into art.

Segment 1: William Gibson – The End of the Future

Main Theme

William Gibson, the author who coined the term "cyberspace," discusses his new novel Agency, the concept of "the jackpot," and how recent political and technological changes have scrambled the collective imagination of the future.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

• Gibson’s Power of Seeing the Future in the Present

  • Gibson’s genius lies not in predicting gadgets, but in perceiving the "futuristic" facets of the here-and-now.
  • Quote:

    “Just to look at the world that we’re in right now and to notice the parts of it that are futuristic.”
    — Josh Rothman (02:00)

  • Example: Gibson’s vision of cyberspace emerged from watching kids playing in arcades and their desire to merge with digital worlds.

• The Novel 'Agency' and the Concept of “Stubs”

  • After the 2016 Presidential election, Gibson abandoned his initial near-future story, feeling the cultural zeitgeist had completely shifted.
  • Quote:

    “I woke up in the morning and I realized I’d never be able to write that book because…the Zeitgeist I was working with is gone… And by 2017, it’ll be, like, really gone.”
    — William Gibson (03:20)

  • In Agency, the plot involves two timelines (the “present” and a future) that interact and create “stubs”—alternate timelines—whenever contact is made.

• The “Jackpot” – A Cumulative Disaster

  • Unlike apocalyptic films with a single cause (aliens, asteroids), Gibson’s “Jackpot” is an accumulation of ongoing crises—climate change, pandemics, wildfires, etc.
  • Quote:

    “It’s like in the slot machine…if all those scary things just keep happening, you get the jackpot. 80% of people die, and the result is a world that’s clawing its way back.”
    — Josh Rothman (06:36)

• Losing Our Vision of the Future

  • Gibson and Rothman agree that the cultural concept of ‘the future’ has shrunk; the 20th century looked anxiously forward to the 21st, but no one talks about the 22nd century now.
  • Quote:

    “Currently we don’t have a future in that sense. We no longer have that sort of cultural anticipation that we took for granted through most of the 20th century.”
    — William Gibson (09:30)

• Gibson on Aging and Perspective

  • Gibson reflects on how older generations always believe the world is ending, but wonders if now the crisis is truly unmatched.
  • Quote:

    “Things are going to go forward. And I think I was right. But now I find myself old and looking at a situation that really does not look good… I’m torn between believing that I’m just doing what the uncles have always done and I’m recognizing something that we haven’t ever… actually seen before.”
    — William Gibson (11:09)

• The Present Unmoors Our Idea of the Future

  • Both speakers note that recent years, political events, and environmental disasters have massively “messed up” our ability to imagine the future as something open or up for grabs.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [02:00] Josh Rothman:

  "You just have to take seriously what you know already is coming… you have to constantly update your sense of what the present is."

• [03:20] William Gibson:

  "The Zeitgeist I was working with is gone. Most people haven’t noticed it yet, but it’s gone."

• [09:30] William Gibson:

  "Currently, we don’t have a future in that sense… we no longer have that sort of cultural anticipation that we took for granted through most of the 20th century."

• [11:09] William Gibson:

  "I’m torn between believing that I’m just doing what the uncles have always done and I’m recognizing something that we haven’t ever… actually seen before."

Important Timestamps

• [00:42] — Josh Rothman sets up Gibson’s early conception of cyberspace
• [03:15] — Gibson describes how the 2016 election changed his writing
• [04:45] — Explanation of timelines and “stubs” from Agency
• [06:17] — The meaning of the “Jackpot”
• [09:17] — Discussion of how the future as a concept has faded
• [10:49] — Gibson’s reflections on aging and the persistent end-of-the-world narrative

Segment 2: Thundercat – Humor, Healing & Blurring Boundaries

Main Theme

Brianna Younger interviews Thundercat (Stephen Lee Bruner) for an honest conversation about his musical background, how he channels both humor and pain into his innovative sound, his rapport with family and collaborators, and the legacy of working with Kendrick Lamar.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

• Origins and Family Roots in Music

  • Thundercat grew up in a musical household, finding early inspiration in his father and older brother.
  • Quote:

    “It means it’s indirectly saying you’re going to play an instrument… it’s not always for the faint of heart.”
    — Thundercat (16:50)

• Developing a Unique Sound and Style

  • His musical evolution: from working in traditional jazz (Young Jazz Giants) to six-string bass and blending R&B, funk, jazz, and hip hop.
  • The six-string bass gave him more creative “facility,” despite initial resistance.
  • Quote:

    “Sometimes when people see the six string, it’s immediately intimidating or…denotes you about to play too much…but…I would always be playing a six string on records that I would record for myself.”
    — Thundercat (19:25)

• Humor as a Coping Mechanism

  • Thundercat’s persona is joyful and light, but he’s just as comfortable channeling loss and hardship; humor is “for the soul.”
  • Quote:

    “Music sometimes can be like therapy…Humor is for the soul, you know…Even if it hurts, it’s still better to laugh.”
    — Thundercat (21:00)

• Public Mourning & Loss (Death of Mac Miller)

  • Talks candidly about losing Mac Miller and the intensity of public grieving.
  • Quote:

    “Everybody mourns, you know, and Mac didn’t just touch my life…my processing of it is…it’s going to get touched.”
    — Thundercat (22:55)

• Working on Kendrick Lamar’s To Pimp a Butterfly

  • The collaborative process was demanding and transformative, marking a watershed moment for jazz, hip hop, and politics.
  • Quote:

    “It became a political statement… It made everything a bit disheveled… It brought the cream to the top. It shook everything up.”
    — Thundercat (25:28)

• Genre Defiance and Next Steps

  • Thundercat jokes about making a trap album next—a reminder of his refusal to be pigeonholed.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [16:50] Thundercat:

  “It’s not always for the faint of heart, you know, when you have a family that does music because everybody has an opinion.”

• [19:25] Thundercat:

  “I would always be playing a six string on records that I would record for myself. It didn’t become a reality until I had my other basses stolen, where I had to take that bass out, and that’s where it started.”

• [21:00] Thundercat:

  “I feel like humor is for the soul, you know…Even if it hurts, it’s still better to laugh.”

• [22:55] Thundercat:

  “Mac didn’t just touch my life. That was just what that was proof of…I had to see through that and realize… it’s bigger than me.”

• [25:28] Thundercat:

  “It wasn’t just the awards. It became a political statement… It made everything a bit disheveled… it shook everything up.”

Important Timestamps

• [16:07] — Discussing family influences and picking up the bass
• [18:28] — Evolution of the Thundercat sound
• [19:25] — The significance (and stigma) of the six-string bass
• [21:00] — Humor in his music, balancing light and dark
• [21:35] — Navigating public grief after Mac Miller’s passing
• [23:32] — Impact and legacy of To Pimp a Butterfly
• [26:13] — Genre defiance and ending on a playful note

Conclusion

This episode offers a sobering and nuanced look at how artists—writers and musicians—navigate changing realities and translate those into art.

• William Gibson invites listeners to look squarely at the present’s incipient weirdness and uncertainty, suggesting the once-bright future now feels foreclosed and strange, even as hope persists.
• Thundercat demonstrates how authenticity, humor, and creative courage allow an artist to withstand life’s turbulence, touching both joy and pain through music.

Highly recommended for those interested in how culture, art, and imagination confront times of uncertainty.