JVL (2:15)

The only woman ever to not be paid who willingly touched him twice. Not for money or although I guess kind of for money.

Sarah Longwell (2:23)

Okay, stop. All right, now you're too. We're too far. We're too far. Here's, here's. I want to just set this up.

JVL (2:28)

Money for her state. Sarah, I meant money for her.

Sarah Longwell (2:31)

I know what you. I gotcha. Here's the thing. Because you said for people who are new.

JVL (2:36)

Gretchen. 20.

Tim Miller (2:37)

28.

JVL (2:38)

There's nothing I won't do for Michigan.

Sarah Longwell (2:41)

Stop it.

Tim Miller (2:44)

I'm going to let Sarah.

Sarah Longwell (2:45)

You know why? This is why. This is why it's impossible to be a female politician, because suddenly everything is put through a prism of sexuality. Okay.

Tim Miller (2:57)

That doesn't happen again.

JVL (2:58)

I don't even mean sexuality. I just mean, like, like, she actually made physical contact with the giant orange oleaginous fellow. But go ahead.

Sarah Longwell (3:06)

So. So the, the actual backdrop of this comment from JBL is that jbl, for a very long time, insisted that John Fetterman was the. Because this was back when I was a Conor Lamb, because I love my centrist Democrats. And Connor Lamb and Fetterman were running against each other in the primary, the Democratic primary in Pennsylvania. I was Lamb. JBL was Fetterman. And JBL did a lot of, like, Fetterman forever Fetterman for the, for the presidency. Fetterman's everything.

JVL (3:34)

Two dozen pieces on this.

Sarah Longwell (3:36)

Yeah. Like you wrote a lot.

JVL (3:38)

Maybe I will set the line over under a two dozen Fetterman love pieces.

Sarah Longwell (3:42)

Yeah. And I would say, like, where do you stand on Fetterman now? Like, should he run in 2028 for president?

JVL (3:48)

No.

Sarah Longwell (3:51)

For. For Senate again?

JVL (3:52)

For sure.

Tim Miller (3:53)

Yeah.

Sarah Longwell (3:54)

Okay. All right.

Tim Miller (3:56)

There are some listeners and some viewers here, and we'll accept your Conor Lamb apologies. And in the comment section.

Sarah Longwell (4:03)

Yeah. And speaking of Pennsylvania, in 2028, I was a. Shapiro Whitmer was my. Or, sorry, 2024, Shapiro Whitmer, my preferred ticket. Had they done the right thing and had a primary, and since they didn't, which has been. Which I don't. I wish they had, but even if they didn't, she should have picked Josh Shapiro as her vice president. And those are two things that I stand by and will not retract. Here's what. Here's what I will say. You live, you learn. And we are watching Gretchen Whitmer go from, like, rising star, who had Joe Biden picked as his vice president, which she was shortlisted to be back in 2020, I think he would have been in a much better position to step down once it became clear he was not up to the job, not up to running again. And voters also knew that Gretchen Whitmer, I think, might have been a pretty good choice for his legacy there. Instead, he chose Kamala Harris for whatever reason, and then. And then decided to, like, give her the crappiest jobs, behave the crappiest to her, and then undermine her at every turn and make it impossible for her to run. When he became so cognitively about this.

Tim Miller (5:23)

Okay.

Sarah Longwell (5:24)

I know I have. Sorry. Yeah. Now we're on a different thing. Sorry. I've moved on. I'm moving on. I'm moving on.

Tim Miller (5:29)

Minutes of this with Tony Blinken this morning. So I think, I think we have a full, I think it's covered on the boat work, our views on this point. So let's, let's continue with Gretchen.

Sarah Longwell (5:39)

Okay, fair enough. So Gretchen Whitmer just, to me, has been displaying an unending list of political malpractice. It began with her saying, oh, is Trump getting just absolutely pilloried on tariffs? Trump, perhaps now is a good time. I haven't said anything in the first hundred days, anything about the deportations or the stock market crashing or the, you know, the judge hadn't been jailed yet. But, like, whatever, I'm not going to say anything about that. But, oh, oh, oh, is Trump in trouble on tariffs? Let me vouch for him. Let me jump in and explain why tariffs, when exercised properly, can be good. We get it. You're a Midwestern governor. Your state, you know, the shifting in the way that our economy approaches manufacturing has been tough for your state. I get it. But it was just, I was shocked by that. And then for her to go into the Oval Office while Trump was signing executive orders specifically to go after his political enemies, like Chris Krebs, whose big, big thing that he did was to say that the 2020 election was free and fair and not stolen. And you just stand there and cover your face with a, with a binder while the photographers are there. Okay, that's, that's strike, too. And now we get this. And this is, I am going to literally hug Trump. I'm going to. Now, the reason she was meeting with Trump in the Oval Office was to get this thing right. There was the, is the base that she wanted money for. He gave it to her. And now she's doing this, like, buddy, buddy thing with him. And look, there are a million ways to have handled all of these things. Like, if she was in the Oval Office, she could have walked out when he started signing executive orders, attacking people for no reason, having the DOJ investigate them, recognize the authoritarian impulse immediately. She catapults and rockets to front runner in 2028. But because she's failed to stand up to him, she has. Maybe, maybe this is a good move for Michigan or maybe she feels like she's doing the right thing for her state. It's the same way that CBS thinks it's doing the right thing for the Paramount merger and the way that Columbia thinks it's doing the right thing for its board and the way that these law firms think they're doing the right thing for their clients, all by caving and buddying up with Trump. I will tell you, that is not what time it is in the Democratic Party or in the broader pro democracy movement. Anybody who's going to basically provide cover for this guy over bespoke little, like, policy issues or funding issues, and then alibi him in the broader authoritarian project, you're done. You're toast. I don't. I am. Yeah. Gretchen Whitmer has shown really, really bad, poor judgment. And I, I do not think she should be the 2028 nominee for sure.

Tim Miller (8:26)

I also don't think that there's really. Nobody has presented me and we talked to Jonathan Cohen last night about this, who's our, you know, new policy guys in Michigan and knows this stuff and is maybe a little less. He's more liberal on policy that has been a little less strident about the politics of this, you know, as just temperamentally. But even, like, I can't find anybody to give me and I have friends that work for. I can give me a reason, like, why, like, she absolutely had to do this to get this, you know, like these jobs, you know, at this base there. Right. Like, there are other ways. I can understand if you're pitching me and you're saying, hey, I'm Whitmer's advisor, like, she's got to be governor. 28 is a long time away. Like, we're just going to kind of do our job here in the state and, you know, we're gonna. I'm not. She's not gonna talk about Trump that much for a while. And, like, we don't want to get crosswise with them. We want to get this federal funding again. This wouldn't be my approach, but that's at least defensible. Right. They're like, oh, they need somebody to come to the event. I grabbed my lieutenant governor, Garland Gilchrist, and say, garland, congrats, you've been named Lieutenant governor. You gotta go do this. We gotta. We got an issue over there. There's. There was a natural. There was a flood or something. I gotta watch. You know, I got. I got some other business. I gotta wash my hair. I can't make it there that day. Just, ooh, scheduling doesn't work out. Like, there are ways to do it that are not, like, maximum confrontation as well, though I would prefer maximum confrontation. And, like, she just seems to have, like, made a choice to not do that, like, actively made a choice that this is the best thing to do. It's a choice that I think is totally wrong. That I think is bad politics, bad policy, bad ethics, which is like, across the board. Again, like, touching down. There's no situation in which I would touch Donald Trump. Just as like, for starters, I mean, there's nothing. I can't imagine something that's like, oh, my kid is going to get into the best school if as long as I just do a photo op with Donald Trump, sorry to lose. You know, LSU will do just fine. I can't imagine a situation that I would do that I would do it in. And, like, I just think it's been a total, total whiff. And I guess my only lesson is, and I've learned this the hard way over many years, and I'd say this to listeners, and as we get into 2028, it's going to be something that I really try to guide myself on. Assuming, you know, we have elections and all that is like, you know, you're not in any of these people's heads making any of these people, you know, into something that they're not into some hero, like, presuming that, you know, you know, projecting what you think that they should be onto them. It's a risky business in politics. And, you know, I don't know. I mean, I probably know Pete the best out of all the people that are going to be 2028. But, like, I don't know Pete that well, you know, I couldn't have one dinner together, like, you know what I mean? And so just, like, having a little bit of remove, I think is probably smart, smart, smart lesson for everybody. Because it's tempting to, like, put on the jersey of somebody and, like, be like, this is my guy. Or my.

Sarah Longwell (11:31)

To be fair, I've never put on the Whitmer.

Tim Miller (11:33)

I never said you were.

Sarah Longwell (11:34)

No, no, no, I know. No, JDL was. Yeah.

JVL (11:37)

What I.

Tim Miller (11:38)

You think?

Sarah Longwell (11:40)

I think. I think JBL was. Was suggesting that I had a Fetterman.

JVL (11:43)

Face tattoo that's totally different from a Fetterman jersey.

Sarah Longwell (11:46)

That's wildly different, Sarah.

JVL (11:49)

I tattooed his face on my face.

Sarah Longwell (11:51)

I did think she had a lot of political potential. And I would just say much like. Much like. And so, like, Gavin Newsom is not for me, but also somebody you could argue had, like, Gretchen Witcher is more for me than Gavin Newsom is. But. But you could also argue he has a lot of political potential. And I've watched both of them over the last six months or so. Just squander so much of it by making very stupid choices.

Tim Miller (12:16)

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JVL (13:54)

So I want to, I want to attack in part and defend in part Whitmer. So my beef with Whitmer has never been anything other than I just thought she was a mid political talent. Yeah, like I always thought she was kind of a phony and just a replacement level Democrat. Maybe high average but like not, not special. I didn't see any. That's why I do not think she would have been like I think she's simply not as good at politics as, say, Kamala Harris. And I think, like, again, Kamala Harris ran a really great campaign, like, performed very, very well. I don't think, I'm not sure we've.

Sarah Longwell (14:29)

Seen enough of Gretchen Whitmer to know, like, I mean, now. But I guess, I guess, I mean, I guess I mean to evaluate her against Kamala and Kamala who, like, if you had given me that comparison, knowing what I knew about both of them one year ago, I would have vehemently disagreed. Right. Based on what we had seen and now based on what we've seen where Kamala Harris performed extraordinarily admirably under very difficult circumstances, not perfectly, made a lot of mistakes. But, but did I think a good job there versus what Gretchen Whitmer has done with her political capital.

JVL (15:10)

So, but here's the, here's the defense part, though. I do not think this is necessarily bad politics for Whitmer from the point of view of Michigan. And so like on Friday, Sarah and I talked about Slotkin and Eliza Slotkin doing a sort of a punching, a hippie punching bit in, in a speech of hers. And I, I think that's wrong nationally. I think it's bad politics nationally. I don't think that that is what you should do if you want to play in national politics. But it is right for Michigan probably. And I don't think any of us should begrudge, you know, red state or close to reddish state Democrats doing what they need to win there like you need. John.

Sarah Longwell (15:59)

Yes, she's in a second, she's in the second term of her governorship.

JVL (16:04)

Sure. But she's going to run for something else, right. If, yeah, Mallory, if Mal. Okay, but this is what I'm saying. Like, I guess what I'm saying is you need, if the Democratic Party is going to be a force for good in, in America, they are going to need people like John Tester who can win in places that are red. And it would be better if those people didn't have delusions about national ambitions.

Sarah Longwell (16:30)

Hold on a second. I'm going to disagree with this. And I hadn't thought about this. But, but the point about, so I'm a, I'm a big defender of the John Tester and Tim Ryan.

JVL (16:42)

Right. Tim Ryan, John Tester, guys like that.

Sarah Longwell (16:44)

Well, but Tim Ryan didn't win. But what's his name from West Virginia. Help me. Manchin. Thank you. You know, I was a big Joe Manchin and even Kirsten Sinema defender in a way. Jbl that you were definitely not. And here's where I, I would defend the need for those types of people. Right. Because you, you lost. You're never going to get a senator, never going to get a Democratic senator in West Virginia ever again. You only had the legacy of Manchin to, to sort of help you there. I will say though, those guys managed to be annoying to Democrats in lots of ways. They didn't wrap their arms around Trump. I just, to me, and this is where, and also I think that the world has changed even since then. I just think the second term of Donald Trump, what he is doing, our assessment of his authoritarian project means that like your bespoke political considerations, especially when like, I actually don't even see what they are in her case. So I can't even evaluate them like what your second term governor. But like, let's say she wanted to get the base. Like, she could have gone about getting the base by pumping up the issue of needing the base there and Donald Trump not giving it to them. And that is good politics. And I'm sorry, and the other thing is, is she is the gov. She's the governor of Michigan. Michigan is national politics all day long, up and down alibi. Donald Trump is not okay, like morally not okay.

Tim Miller (18:20)

Yeah, I want to extend that even a little further just on the politics of it. And setting the morals Aside, though, I 100% agree with you on the morally okay, but just to the politics. Like, if you're trying to make an assessment, the Democrats need to expand their agreement and their, their, you know, what their appeal like beyond the people who voted for Kamala Harris. Totally agree. And like, if you feel like you're going to make a bet that you're going to do that by being more populist and Bernie, like, I think that's probably wrong, but I don't know, at least it's a theory. Like, if you're going to say we're going to do this by being more culturally to the center on immigration and crime. I don't 100% agree with that either on policy. But like, at least that's a theory. And like, I'm interested in like what letting people try that. Like, if you're going to try to do it, like there are a million different ways. You know, Beto is on on Friday and he's just like, we're just, I just think the right way is just to campaign in rural places. Okay, I think that's probably not going to work, but whatever. Worth a try. All of that is worth a Try. What is not worth a try is sucking up to Donald Trump, because that is politically wrong. It's not going to work. You have to make the right now, April 30, 2025. The right thing to do is to think about how you think Donald Trump is going to be viewed in 2028. And to me, the answer is, God willing, will be absolutely toxic. His presidency is going to be disaster. And the right thing to do is make a bet that this man's presidency is a disaster. And you need to appeal to his voters in other ways besides hugging him and being like, you know, he made some.

Sarah Longwell (19:54)

Well, more than that. It's not just about making the bet, it's about making it happen.

Tim Miller (19:57)

Yeah, right.

Sarah Longwell (19:58)

Like, Gretchen Whitmer has a responsibility to her party and to the country to make Trump to not alibi him, but to help make him politically toxic.

Tim Miller (20:07)

Yes, true, but I'm just saying, like, is there a safer bet than that? Donald Trump is going to be a disaster at this point. I know we're going to get to the economy next, but we're on the. Later in the show. We're on the brink of already in one quarter. We went from GDP plus 2% to negative GDP in one quarter. I know. Me and Tony Blinker were laughing about how in one quarter he has thrust Japan and China together.

JVL (20:36)

He's a dealmaker, Tim.

Tim Miller (20:37)

He brings.

JVL (20:38)

He makes it happen.

Tim Miller (20:39)

If Donald Trump, like, pulls his shit together and ends up becoming a great president, you know, then I'll do a mea culpa to Gretchen Whitmer in four years. But, like, I think it's about as safe of a bet as you can make that you should make all your political actions now on the premise that you have a responsibility to make him a disaster, but that even without you, that he's going to be a disaster. And so you shouldn't do anything that would demonstrate that you were accommodating in any way of that disaster.

Sarah Longwell (21:08)

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JVL (22:45)

While we are on the subject of Democrats doing great, very smart politics, our colleague Adrian Carrasquillo broke a story moments before we went on air that Hakeem Jeffries has been discouraging other Democrats from going down to El Salvador, which I think was the single most effective thing a Democrat has done so far in the Trump administration. I don't quite know what to say about this.

Tim Miller (23:19)

Tim, just for people who are like, okay, and this is reporting based on a couple of sources, but I just want to draw your attention to one line here, which is Jeffrey's office declined to comment. Like, you know, they could just have said, you know, again, like we can just be candid here about what the, where the bulwark is, right? Like, it's not as if, like we're out here trying to do hit pieces on Hakeem Jeffries and if he fucks up, we're going to say so. But it's like if they have something wrong, if it's like, oh, you know, we have sources and they go to Jeffries office and Jeffries is like, no people should go to El Salvador. What Chris Van Halen did was great and I admire him. You could just say that. And like they chose not to. So like this, I have no reason to believe that this is not true. And you know, also I did notice this. That. And I wish I would have pressed Corey on it harder. Cory Booker last Thursday, because he was planning on going and he had it.

JVL (24:11)

I remember this.

Tim Miller (24:11)

Yeah, yeah. And we, and I started talking to Him And I just kind of, I don't know, never assume, you know what they say about assuming. You know, I just kind of assumed that it was like whatever, a little delayed or whatever. He didn't want to double dip on Van Holland, like right on the tune tales of him. So we talked about the issue quite a bit and Cory Booker's was totally aligned with everything you'd want someone to say about this issue. But he didn't go. And it's like in this story that, yeah, they don't want, they want people to chill out on going to El Salvador. I don't, again, I don't, I just, I've. I don't know what I could say about this that is not repetitive of something that I've already said a hundred times about it. But you're already seeing Trump's numbers go down on immigration. It is absolutely the right thing to do. But putting aside the politics, I'm doing the inverse of what I said about Regretchin Whitner now. Putting it aside the politics and just looking at the morals. The only way any of the people wrongfully sent to this torture prison are going to get out of the torture prison is if there's maximum pressure put on Bukele and Trump. That's the only way. Because if people stop talking about this, people move on to talk about kitchen table issues. Then the guy with the autism awareness tattoo, the guy that was, that accidentally drove into Canada was disappeared from his family. Andre the hairdresser. All of these people are going to be in that hole forever.

JVL (25:30)

Sarah, can you please just go crazy on this?

Sarah Longwell (25:35)

Well, so actually I'm gonna, I'm gonna maybe be the jvm.

JVL (25:37)

We need to embed you in the Democratic caucus, I think.

Sarah Longwell (25:41)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So here's what I can understand about Jeffrey's position. Even though I mostly agree with Tim, I do mostly agree with him. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to give the alternative, which is they have made a lot of hay out of this. I'm not sure having a continual train of people going down, like at some point it's like, okay, another person's going down now. I don't think that they should abandon the issue. I'm not sure if going there over and over again makes sense. Right. Like at some point it starts to look like everyone's just trying to get their, like, licks in on something as opposed to whatever. And for all we know, the pressure that they've got already is leading to some kind of a deal where like Maybe they're going to bring it back. I don't know. I don't know. I just, I think that they, there should be ways to keep the pressure on. They should absolutely not take their eye off of getting it back because it's the right thing to do. I'm not convinced that just continuing to go down there helps the issue that much. It might, but they've only done it once.

JVL (26:57)

It isn't like, you know, 15 guys have gone twice.

Sarah Longwell (27:00)

Okay, twice. And then like this is one of those issues where like maybe Bukele is getting better at the propaganda side of it. To me, this is one where it depends a little bit why they're doing it.

JVL (27:14)

I mean, very reasonable.

Tim Miller (27:15)

Okay, I don't, it's reasonable. But like, and even in the statement, like these guys keep focusing on Kilmar Abrego Garcia, which I, and I would love to get to the Ms. Paint tattoo question here in a sec. But like, I think that there is a bigger message that could also be delivered in El Salvador or elsewhere just about the disappearing of these folks and even some of these statements from the Congressional Hispanic Caucus and others that are like, oh, I only want access to Kilmar Abrego Garcia. It's like, do we not want proof of life of the other Venezuelans?

Sarah Longwell (27:52)

This is a good point actually. To strategically go to Venezuela, like go somewhere else, I guess, is, is, is, is mainly like don't all keep doing the same thing because it has diminishing returns. It's like how do you broaden this case? How do you think strategically about getting other people in the mix? Because for a while right now, part of what's hard, right, is they have done this to so many people accidentally or misidentified or that it's getting complicated, just like with Trump's court cases, to know which person was sent wrongly where and under what circumstances. And so I think that the, the thing you've got to figure out is how do you tell the story? Because now there's this four year old American citizen with cancer that they sent. And so like if what he's saying is let's, let's, let's, let's get to some of these other stories and help make it not just about this one guy who has a complicated personal story and get to some of these other things, I could buy that, as I'll say so.

Tim Miller (28:52)

But again, again, I don't, I hear your point that you do not want to have repetitive people that are just trying to get their moment in the sun to no end. Like, I totally agree with that. Like, that said, I don't. I do reject the idea that they've, like, made some ground on the propaganda campaign here. I mean, this, again, goes back to, like, Trump last night. It was where he was on the most defense in the interview with Terry Moran. And for you who haven't seen it, where. Where the ABC host is like, you know, where Trump is, like, you guys in the fake news media. That's why people don't trust you. You didn't see that he has MS.13 tattooed on his finger, on his knuckles, and it's like, no, that was. That was the propaganda. Right. With where his own side. I don't know who did it. Some Stephen Miller, probably, or somebody like, like, wrote an aerial font MS.13 on top of the marijuana leaf and the smile and the cross and the skull, and fucking Grandpa. Trump, like, got tricked by his own staff, apparently, into believing that the MS.13 that they were trying to show was what those symbols delineated. Allegedly, he got tricked into thinking the MS.13 was real and gets mad at the interviewer and starts, like, staring at him.

Sarah Longwell (30:04)

I was going to say, he's not on defense, he's on offense. The guy's trying to move on. The reporter's trying to move on. And Trump keeps being like, it was Photoshopped.

Tim Miller (30:10)

Yeah. Terry's like, agree to disagree at one point. And I'm watching and I go, agree to disagree. No, I mean, it's like, this is insane. And then he's. And then Trump is like, no. And he keeps pressing, and Trump looks like an insane person, and it's humiliating. I got messaged by a reader today. I'm gonna read this because it was so funny. Who said that they, when they were in school as a child, got into a fight or no, excuse me, they were in there in high school, got into a fight with their boyfriend where they were certain that if I had a million dollars was by Simon and Garfunkel, and the boyfriend said it was, no, it's the Barenaked Ladies. And she was like, I went to the mat arguing, no, no, it's Simon and Garfunkel that did. I had a million dollars. She's like, I'm still mortified by this decades later thinking about it. I'm like, that was Trump last night. He's like, no, no, no, it's really msnp. So I pointed. What are they winning? Are they really winning this battle? His numbers on immigration are going down. To me, it's like, step on the gas. Right now, I don't know that. I think that's the counterview.

JVL (31:11)

Hit him again, Rock.

Sarah Longwell (31:12)

And I think that's. And I. Again, I think that's right. I just. And maybe you're right that, like, if you look at the statement, it just seems like they're taking the Gavin Newsom approach of this is a distraction. But again, I think it is embarrassing for Democrats if you think it is impossible to be able to say Trump is screwing up both the economy and his immigration policies, because I'm pretty sure you can do both.

JVL (31:40)

Well, let's talk about the economy because we got some big, big news. Double dip of big news today. First real GDP for first quarter down 0.3%. That's actual contraction. The expectations had been that it was going to drop from like, 2 and change to 0.3% net positive. So this was still bad, which would have been terrible. Massive slowing of, massive slowdown. But the reality of it was worse. And this triggered the Trump bleat about how this is Joe Biden's stock market. Those are our two big economic pieces of news. It seems like this is the kind of thing. Sarah, again, I'm just a writer. I'm not a political strategist and a communication specialist. The way you guys are, it feels like economy growth negative is pretty easy, even for the mouth breathers on your focus group, which, by the way, over the weekend, I caught up on a couple focus groups, including the Ann Applebaum one, and I wanted to murder those people. Straight murder.

Sarah Longwell (32:53)

Okay, yeah, sorry, that sounds like you.

JVL (32:57)

But even they, I think, could understand positive growth. Positive growth. Positive growth. Under Biden, Trump is elected economy contracts. No.

Sarah Longwell (33:10)

Yeah. Although I got to. I mean, they're. They're gonna feel it. Like, this is the thing about the economy. It's a lived experience. And this is where, you know, you and I used to.

Tim Miller (33:20)

What, so to speak. I don't know, you're just doing lib talk now all of a sudden. You know, it's been. It's been so long since you're a Republican. You're out here doing lived experience.

Sarah Longwell (33:30)

Yeah, but I'm doing lived experience related to the economy. Not like, you know, being a woman or what. I'm just saying lived experience in the economy. You exist in the economy, and so they notice that. And here. Here is something that I think is important when you talk about these voters. I went back and we went back and just grabbed a bunch of stuff from Trump's campaign speeches. He promised it was, like, within the context of the first Hundred days. He promised to lower grocery prices. He promised to get the debt under control. He made all of these promises.

JVL (34:02)

Were those kidding promises, like ending the Ukraine war in 24 hours? Because he said. He said that everybody understood he was kidding with that one.

Sarah Longwell (34:11)

Just a figure of speech on day one. Yeah. No, these were like, pretty promises. Real, real promises speech in every.

JVL (34:19)

Is there a. Does he tap his nose to signify which kind of promises which, or how are we supposed to know?

Sarah Longwell (34:26)

As soon as he starts talking about Hannibal Lecter, you know, everything that came before, it was a joke. Gotcha. No, I. So, people, this. This is going to matter in all of the ways. And not telling them we're in a recession, but them feeling that we're in a recession, which is why they should have room, which is why they should have room to do the things then. And this is where actually, two things real quickly on this from a messaging standpoint. One is just because they live in it doesn't mean you don't have to do the messaging work to make sure everybody understands this is Trump's economy. Because you will notice that Donald Trump, in that bleat that he did, this is Joe Biden's economy. Well, back in January, he bleeded. And this is before he even took office. This is my economy already because the market is so excited about me coming in. And so he owns it when it goes up. He disowns it when it goes down. You have to. He is trying to message against his failures. And so you have to make sure you message into his failures, make sure they are owned by him. So that is one messaging thing. But, like, that's easy. Like just. That's. That's an easy one. People are unhappy. It's Trump's fault. And then you also can have room to be like. And then there's all the people he's just sending to gulags wrongly, mistakenly. Incompetence. It's a story of total incompetence. They can be tied together into one story.

Tim Miller (35:46)

Also, can I throw out one more thing? I'm sorry, I have one. And another thing on Hakeem Jeffries, which is related to the economy, but it's on the Hakeem Jeffries strategery. For the Democratic members of Congress listening. I think it's important for everybody have a little bit of humility about what the impact of their actions are, what it could be, who's listening to them. Like, the types of people that are aware of what a random member of Congress does. I love, like, you Know the types of people that are aware of, like, the trip that, like, I mean, JVL clearly didn't know about the second trip to El Salvador by, by four members of Congress, like, mid bench. Like, people. I'm not talking about aoc, not talking about, you know, Hakeem maybe, but even Hakeem, like, I. That the types. People that are aware of what they're doing are people that are super engaged in politics. Like, people that already know who, who they support and what they're voting for. Like you are in your congressional members are able to influence elites, right? Like that's what you're able to do with your press conference. Like influence elite behavior, right? Influence high engagement behavior. There's a campaign that happens where you try to reach other people through paid advertising. You can reach other people through, like, what Pete did, going on random cultural podcasts and suffering through for frat bros doing dick jokes. Like, there are other strategies you can use. You could do TikTok, right? Like, but like, I just. This whole fucking idea that it matters, like, deeply. Like, whether the press release that comes out of, you know, Troy Carter, my congressman's office, is about tomato prices or about Kilmar, Abrego, Garcia. Like, it. That doesn't matter. Like, to Sarah's point, like, the economy, like, people are going to feel it, people are going to know it, and people are going to know who to blame. Some people refuse to blame that person because they're in a cult, right? Or because they watch North Korea news. And that's going to be a way bigger percentage of people that we want it to be, right? But like, the people that you're trying to reach on this stuff, like, that's how they're going to be reached and you can figure out other creative ways to reach them. But, like, that's, that's just the reality.

JVL (38:08)

That I'm very, very nice segue to Tim, because you're talking about Democrats. But on the Republican side, Jim Lankford went and said that there are two ways. There are two ways to influence, and they are to hold press conferences in which you try to warn the administration to stop blowing up the economy or do you have private conversations. And I guess the. I guess the inferred part of that is that what he's doing is having private conversations.

D (38:44)

So there's two ways to be able to handle checks and balances. One is to go out, do big press conferences and meetings, and the other ones that go privately to people to be able to sit down and say, how do we actually Solve this. Let's actually do input. You'll find a lot of Republicans that are, when they have concerns, when they have questions, they're going to administration officials behind the scenes saying, let me give you some ideas. We are seeing the administration engage in, in Congress in ways that we have not seen recently. The real rapid check and balance, whether Republican or Democrat, is always the court. That's the rapid check and balance. When Congress actually does something, the president still has to sign it. So the check and balance to the executive branch is always the judicial branch first, and then it's a matter of processing it through the law.

JVL (39:24)

It does strike me there's a third way, which is to, like, use your power to vote in the legislature. Does that strike you to do things? Maybe I'm wrong.

Tim Miller (39:31)

I just want to get this exact phrase. There's two ways to do checks and balances. One is to do press conferences, and the other is to go privately to people.

JVL (39:41)

That's not actually right. Voting not a part of this.

Tim Miller (39:45)

That's not actually right. There's one way for Congress to do checks and balances, and it's neither of the two proposals that James Langford suggested. There are ways for us as podcasters to try to check and balance by, by speaking publicly or privately. Influentials are under. But James Langford is one of the rare 100 people who has an actual ability to do a check and balance, which would be legislative.

JVL (40:12)

So do you guys think this is the reason I wanted to ask this is, as we watch Trump's approval go down, is there a point at which the Lankfords of the world would be willing to vote in ways that were checks on Trump? Because in a normal world, yes, right. In normal political world, that's a thing that happens. But in normal political world, the elected members aren't afraid for their lives if they vote a certain way. And they are now, like, we, you know, we've heard reports of this over and over and over for a decade. Is there a point at which they feel like, yeah, we can do that, or no, maybe.

Sarah Longwell (40:59)

I think it depends on the conditions and which are the things they're taking the vote on. So let's say hypothetically that the tariffs are leaving shelves empty and they've got their, they've got business owners coming to them constantly saying, do something, do something, do something. We're in a recession. They're going to lose both the Senate and the house in 2026. That's becoming clear because economic catastrophe, like, then I think maybe they do, maybe they Take a vote. But, like, then also they need Democrats with them to, like, bail them out. Like, it's a complicated thing, and you probably could get enough to pass something if you had all the Democrats and a handful of people who weren't up for reelection. Right. They'd, like, come up with some. Right, yeah, that's true. But. But they'd only need just enough to do that. Right. I do think just it's a lot. Yeah. So it's tough. It's not tough, actually. It's very straightforward.

Tim Miller (41:54)

20 out of 53.

Sarah Longwell (41:56)

Yeah.

Tim Miller (41:56)

Like, that's 20 out of 53 that are against the tariffs, and there are 20 out of 53 that are against the Ukraine policy. There are, like, just. If you had a secret ballot, like, so you do have the rights. If they wanted to do it.

Sarah Longwell (42:07)

Yeah. I did have somebody email me at some point to be like, the solution is that you ought to get Congress to have secret ballots. And I was like, no, there are representatives. Like, we need to know what they're doing. But, like, that's pathetic. That's.

Tim Miller (42:22)

Can I just say, creative proposals.

Sarah Longwell (42:26)

No, no, Here's. I do. I just want one reporter to say to one of these senators, just to look at them dead in the eye and say, what would you say it is you do here? Like, just to give them the old office space. Like, what is your job, do you think? Because listening to Langford, it is maddening. Like, the extent to which it does not compute for him that he has any agency in this whatsoever.

Tim Miller (42:54)

Do you know how many laws they've passed so far in the first hundred days? Laws. Like actual laws. New laws. The way the government.

Sarah Longwell (43:00)

Zero. Or. Wait, what? The extension. The extension.

Tim Miller (43:04)

We count the extension. Jv, do you like to guess?

JVL (43:09)

I mean, I couldn't. Because in every Congress, they do a bunch of meaningless laws that, you know, five.

Tim Miller (43:17)

The Lake and Riley act, which was the one thing that the Democrats gave them at the beginning. Then. Since then, there was a congressional disapproval for some EPA thing. Okay. And then the Bureau of Ocean Management wanted to protect marine archaeological resources, so they did that. Then they did the continuing resolution. And since the continuing resolution, which was six weeks ago, they've done one thing was again, disapproval. Just expressing congressional disapproval by an. About an IRS rule about digital access digital asset sales. So I think a pro crypto thing. So that's it. That's what they've done. Somebody can tell me if I was wrong about whether that. What. What exactly that digital assets thing is, but they've done nothing. Like, they literally have done.

JVL (44:08)

But that's.

Tim Miller (44:09)

They literally have done nothing.

Sarah Longwell (44:10)

That is that right now I'm pro them doing nothing. This particular. Well, Senate.

JVL (44:17)

No.

Sarah Longwell (44:17)

Unless what they're going to do is check Trump, which they're not.

JVL (44:20)

The. The Trump project, though, is about not needing legislative approval to do things. Right. It is about centralizing power in the executive. And that means that you don't want to recognize that the legislature needs to act in order for things to happen.

Tim Miller (44:36)

Yeah. I mean, Axios. Because they don't care. Right. So they've all reoriented their brain where they like. Their job isn't to pass laws anymore. As James Langford Sundays, he has two jobs. Press conferences or private talks. And like Barrasso and Thune. There was an Axios report on Monday. It was like Barrasso and Thune are going to have a victory lap press conference to discuss all of the accomplishments of the first 100 days. And that's why I knew that there had been five things passed. Because I googled it. I was like, what have they done? They've done nothing. Like, you don't you have to do something. Like, they, they, they kept the government open and they passed the Lake and Riley act. And they've expressed disapproval about a couple of things. But for. To them, they're like, okay, that's great. Because the border. Because all the executive actions did these things that they claim that they like that are obviously terrible. But like, so they haven't done anything. And so I, there's. I don't think that given. I guess let's put it this way. Given that they are unable to codify the things Donald Trump likes. Right. Given that they are either unable or unwilling to even pass bills that are in line with what Trump wants.

JVL (45:43)

Sure. Eliminating usaid.

Tim Miller (45:45)

Yeah. I don't know what would give you any hope that they would pass a bill that counteracted him. And they can't even advance the agenda that they have like the proactive agenda that they claim to support. So they should be pressured to do this. It is ludicrous. It would make. One of. You can sing a Hamilton song about this. It would make Madison roll over in his grave that it's like the President would unilaterally throw the country into a recession for no reason besides his love of the word tariff and his megalomania. And that the legislative body that's supposed to be in charge of the purse would refuse to do a single thing to stop it. Like, they could just stop it right now. They could stop it right now.

JVL (46:33)

They could literally pass the law to take back his power.

Tim Miller (46:36)

It takes 20 Republicans, just 20. So even half of the Republican caucus could oppose it. So, like they could stop it right now. And they've just decided we're not going to do anything. The only thing we can do is press conference and talks.

JVL (46:51)

Here's some other people who can't do.

Sarah Longwell (46:52)

What do you think their back channel talks are like? It's like, please sir, don't do this.

Tim Miller (46:58)

And then you guys have no balls. I think it's kind of like, you know, we've really seen some great things, sir. We've really seen some great progress on the border and we've seen some great progress. And I think the way you're going after China is so good. But you know, here in Oklahoma, we could really, you know, we could really use a reprieve on X, Y, Z, A, B, C. And like I sent a list of the staff and if we could, I think it's probably that.

Sarah Longwell (47:22)

It'S just special dispensation. It's like basically they're going to do special pleading to get out of the things he's enacting.

Tim Miller (47:28)

Correct? Yeah, I don't think that there's anybody. This actually would be an interesting question. This is where I wish we still had Mark Caputo. I'd love to ask Mark Caputo this question. Do you think anybody has actually gone to Donald Trump and said point blank, you need to stop this with the tariffs right now. It's going to ruin your presidency if you keep doing it? Do you think that anyone has just had a blunt conversation? Not kind of like a, oh, you know, we got to be worried about the bond markets and maybe we got to dial it back a little bit and like, there's some good stuff here.

JVL (47:59)

I don't think only Jared was still there. We could have counted on Jared in his soft voice.

Tim Miller (48:05)

Who would he even be like, honestly, who would it even.

Sarah Longwell (48:09)

Benuchin.

JVL (48:10)

It would have been Mnuchin.

Tim Miller (48:11)

Yeah, right. The now.

JVL (48:12)

But now, now, now there's nobody. Nobody. All right, I want to talk about special dispensations in Amazon because yesterday word leaked out that Amazon was going to start showing what percentage of prices were due to tariffs. This happened. Caroline Leavitt lost her mind, rushed out to the podium to say that this was a hostile and political action. Trump called up Jeff Bezos and shortly thereafter the Amazon spokesman said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This was a team that does the, the ultra low cost Amazon hall store. And they considered the idea, but it was never approved and it was never going to happen. And then Donald Trump came out and said yeah, Jeff Bezos is nice, terrific. He took, he solved that problem for me.

Tim Miller (49:12)

Call apparently.

JVL (49:13)

Right. That is what I'm saying. Like so Amazon says this was never going to happen and Trump says oh yeah, they were going to do this but I made them stop.

Tim Miller (49:21)

Yeah. I want Sarah's taking basis before we do. Just since you mentioned Caroline Lovett. Did you see the like other the alternate press conference that they started to have? If you've seen this, they have an alternate press conference now they have a regular one and then later in the day they have one for MAGA inflation influencers. Oh, there's a video like Draco.

Sarah Longwell (49:39)

I thought this was an SL skit.

Tim Miller (49:42)

I did see him asking her about. Yeah. Was Draco not gay? I don't know. I'm not a Harry Potter guy. Was the question about like how she's a great mother and then like the other people are laughing like how do.

Sarah Longwell (49:55)

You, how do you do it all? How do you do it all? What's your advice for other young women? Did you see her answer which is all about Donald Trump has been so supportive. He's really supportive of young women.

JVL (50:06)

I've heard that you're a very high.

Tim Miller (50:08)

Profile young mother who seems to juggle and balance it all beautifully. What advice do you have to young parents out there who are starting their careers, having kids, building families and trying to find that balance so desperately?

Sarah Longwell (50:19)

Yeah, well it's a great question and first to the heart of your premise. It's true. The president has empowered not just me as a young mother in this role, but there are so many new moms and dads on our senior staff in the West Wing but also across the entire administration.

JVL (50:35)

How is this real manually?

Tim Miller (50:38)

Imagine if like if, if Jen Psaki had had like it's like hey you know we're not going to invite the, you know no Peter Doocy today. We're just going to, we're just going to bring in like a couple of the tiktokers.

JVL (50:51)

Who would you even bring in? There were no pro Biden media. This is the like Biden just get shit on by everybody.

Tim Miller (50:57)

For me talkers the got then people in my mentions there was what's her name. There were like the, a couple of Rand random people that called me a racist for saying that Joe Biden was old. Candidly Tiff there were a couple, there were some influencers. You could find them I guess is what I was saying. But you'd have to really, you know, you'd have to really dig.

Sarah Longwell (51:15)

Anyway, speaking of which, just on racism, I got the comments were like after me after last week, simply because I didn't say they were exactly the Gestapo. Settle down, guys. It's okay to have like a smidge of restraint in our language. That does not mean that one is like covering for all the racists.

Tim Miller (51:35)

Jason.

JVL (51:36)

Okay, Sarah, please, Amazon.

Sarah Longwell (51:39)

You know, I mean, this is. I mean, here's my favorite thing is just remember when Bezos came out and said that their editorial page at the Washington Post is now going to be just about free markets and, you know, free trade. And I'm like, literally what you are doing is the definition of kleptocracy. Like, he just calls you up and you change your business practices? No, look, I don't know if any of it's like. But yes, Donald Trump was able to. Just get me Bezos on the phone. I don't want Amazon to do this. Hi, guys. That's not how the free market works. It's the opposite of it. Did you know that?

JVL (52:17)

I think that is the free market.

Sarah Longwell (52:20)

No, no, it's not. Jvl. This is your problem is your problem with cap. No, your problem with capitalism, jbl, is that you think whatever is happening is capitalism and it's not. Capitalism has an actual definition, just like conservatism had an actual definition. Nobody who's doing it right now is actually practicing conservatism and none of these people are practicing capitalism.

JVL (52:42)

I mean, there's capitalism in our minds and there's capitalism as it exists in real life.

Tim Miller (52:48)

That's central planning and this is state run government.

Sarah Longwell (52:51)

Yeah, it's the opposite of capitalism.

JVL (52:54)

Yeah, it's where capitalism.

Sarah Longwell (52:56)

Free and unfettered markets mean that they are unfettered by the president reaching in and demanding things like this.

Tim Miller (53:03)

Unfettered markets. Sounds nice.

Sarah Longwell (53:06)

Getting. Getting dreamy over there.

JVL (53:08)

No, those things are bad too. They're all bad. Two cheers for CAP. 1 1/2 years for capital. All right, so that's it. Jeff Bezos. I mean, what is. I really do think I've said this before in these shows. What is the point of being this rich? Not to tell people to like go jump in a lake. If I was, if I was super rich, and let me tell you, I would love to be super rich, it would be awesome. My, I'd be like John Goodman and the Gambler. I would be operating from a position of fuck you. You know, somebody calls me up and says like, oh well, you're going to be, you're going to make 10 billion less. I was like, yeah, that's great. I don't even get out of bed for $10 billion off. They're all, that's the joy of it, right?

Tim Miller (53:52)

They're all making so much less. I don't, it's just also, they've all lost a lot of money. I keep being, saying like this, it's not about principle even. It's a bad bet. Stop making this bad bet on sucking up to Trump and thinking you're gonna get something out of it. None of it. No, it hasn't worked for anybody. Sarah Huckabee Sanders is the only person that has made a deal with Trump and come out on the other side doing better. I, I, it's just, it's not, it's a loser. I was talking with Pablo Tory on YouTube about this, about your team owner, Jeffrey Lurie. The Eagles In 2018, the Eagles did not go to the White House and Jeffrey Lurie said, I don't have in front of me anymore. But it's something like Trump is a terrible, it's a disastrous presidency or something. It was a disastrous presidency is what he said. And so they didn't show up in 2018. Now here we are 2025 and Jeffrey Lurie was up there doing the Gretchen Whitmer thing, like shaking his hands like a couple of your offensive guys. Joan Hertz wasn't there. AJ Brown, like some of the wide receivers weren't there, but the owner is there. And I'm like, why? Like what? Like, how is it better now than then? In the intervening seven years he's tried an insurrection, been indicted several times. Like is sending people into a gulag, like he's crushing the economy. Like what? Like the calculus to me is confusing and I think there are like two ways to look at it. One is like people have just been beaten down. Like, this is just society now. Maybe, maybe it's fear, you know, that they're like, in 2018, he wasn't really scared of this guy and now it's like, God, who the fuck knows what he's going to do. Maybe there's a fear element to it. I don't know, maybe it's just cowardice, human frailty.

Sarah Longwell (55:33)

There's also a red pilled element.

Tim Miller (55:35)

You know, he's been red pilled. I don't know though.

Sarah Longwell (55:39)

You don't think Bezos has?

Tim Miller (55:40)

Oh, Bezos has, I think, yeah. But I mean, even these other guys, like the Eagles, Hunter, who's like the.

Sarah Longwell (55:45)

Little of The Eagles.

Tim Miller (55:46)

Yeah. But I do think that some of them have been red pilled for sure. But I just mean like in addition to that there's like another category of like Crenshaw Whitmer hasn't been red pilled. She lurias like there's a category of people that have just decided that strat that that like they've accepted this. There's this theory out there like pushed by like Scott Jennings who spoke at the Trump rally that's like resistance didn't work last time and so like now this time you're going to try, we should try it different. And I, yeah. And I just, I don't. It's. That's just wrong.

Sarah Longwell (56:15)

I love that the idea of different accepted. Different doesn't have to mean opposite though. It doesn't have to mean like instead of resistance we do acquiescence. It could just mean collaboration instead of like the pussy hats in the streets, like we come up with a strategy that is able to build a much bigger coalition. Like and even that. And I'm not even, I'm not trying to shit on the Women's March. I'm just saying like there are lots of other strategies that aren't just acquiescence.

JVL (56:45)

Donald Trump, who did not campaign on cutting spending, came into office determined to cut $2 trillion in government spending supposedly and in his first hundred days spent 200 billion more than Biden in his first hundred days.

Sarah Longwell (57:06)

And that is at the point where Biden was still trying to fight Covid. So he was also spending a lot in his first term and Trump is still spending more. And I gotta, I wanna talk about this thing because I Republicans run. And I tweeted this this morning, half the reason that I was a Republican is because I think an enormous amount of debt is unsustainable. I think it's at a national security risk. I think it is bad for us as a country for growth. I don't mind like you eventually have to pay your bills and then when you get into these periods of inflation, paying the interest on that debt starts to eat up all of like the stuff that you could be doing things with. Right. It is bad for us to carry this much debt. So I, and I remember I like had like a debt project, you know, back when I was doing Republican stuff. And that was when the debt was 12 trillion. Do you know what the debt is right now?

JVL (58:01)

I haven't been by the clock in, by. By Penn Station.

Tim Miller (58:05)

30.

Sarah Longwell (58:06)

32 trillion. Yeah, it's a lot of trillions. Okay. China owns a Lot of that debt. And now you've got the dollar weakening. Okay, so here's the thing though. What I want to say is that Doge has been a complete and abject failure across every vector. And I want people to start talking about this, about what a failure this has been, because the idea was that they were going to cut 2 trillion in spending. He walks that back to 1 trillion because he immediately sees, oh, oh, there's not 2 trillion here to cut, cut. And now we're in this thing where they're like, well, we're cutting waste, fraud and abuse and they're like, cutting, they've run out of just. This is, and this is very similar where Trump's plan, right, we're going to deport immigrants who've committed crimes. Well, then they realized pretty quickly the number of immigrants who'd committed crimes was quite small. And that was easy to dispense with, actually. And it's sort of like for Elon and the people looking at the, the, the federal government, they're like, oh, the things that are actually kind of wasteful or even fraudulent or whatever is very small. And like, well, we can't stop this. And so they find themselves doing what the only thing they run into. What is the most obvious problem that literally every president has faced. There's only two places to really, really cut if you're gonna cut our national debt, deficit and spending. It's Medicare and Social Security. And here's the problem for Republicans now. It used to be that Republicans could, and Elon, like, touched, touched the third rail briefly to call Social Security a Ponzi scheme. Backed off that real quick. Here's their problem. Their voters are now more low income voters. Sorry, did I lean in and get loud?

Tim Miller (59:51)

Whoa. I was like, sorry, Sarah's getting serious. When I like it, security privatization comes up.

JVL (59:56)

I like it get into the, bring up entitlement reform and Republican Sarah comes out.

Sarah Longwell (60:01)

This is me. This is, this is the stuff that lights me up. The lower income voters who are now make up a much more dominant part of the Trump coalition. They are on Medicare, they are on Social Security. They, I mean, obviously everybody's on Social Security a certain point, but, like, they care about those federal programs. You can't touch them. And as a Republican, it used to be that you could get a little closer to talking about George W. Bush tried. Obviously, it fell apart. This is the third rail of American politics. And in a different world, Trump could be using his lame duckness and everything to like, deal with the fact that Social Security will Become insolvent at some point in the not too distant future. And it is not a program that can be around forever, but instead, like, they're just not going to talk about it. And so they're not making these cuts. They've just, you know, whatever, they stole everybody's information and they cut a bunch of shit or cut, like, cut a bunch of programs that, that actually, like, made a difference. And they still are spending more money. This is important. I did not want to skip this topic. They are still spending more money than Biden did.

JVL (61:06)

But you are, you are granting their premise, which was that they were interested in cutting spending and they weren't. Spending was never important. What was important was taking over the government and centralizing power within the executive. And that's what this, and that's what the entire Doge thing was. It was, we're going to eliminate any part of the government which might operate independently of the executive himself in his person, and we're going to try to make it more, more open to authoritarianism. That was the point of the project. The, the cutting expenses stuff was just the reason being given for it.

Sarah Longwell (61:45)

That was the pretense.

Tim Miller (61:45)

JBL is correct that that was the point of the project. I, I will say though, if you, if you read which I, I suffer through like, kind of the fancy pants MAGA rationale for all this sort of stuff.

JVL (61:55)

Have you been reading Oren Cass?

Tim Miller (61:57)

Yeah, they do say that. And, and this is the premise here, the pretense, they are correct about that, like, and this is part of the reason why they're pressuring Jerome Powell and all this, right? Is that, like, that the interest on the debt is unsustainable and that Trump is going to, you know, it's part of the kind of expending, but it's also part of this absurd. They have this thing called, it's like the new Bretton woods, that they're going to have a Mar A Lago accord where they renegotiate the terms of our debts or paying less. Okay. So they, they're at least in touch with the reality of the fact that, like, the interest on the debt costs, like, continue to go up and it becomes a problem for their project. I concur that their primary project is to take over the federal government and their soft, authoritarian aspect aspirations. Not like some, you know, blue eye shade concerned about the deficit, but like, they're, they do talk about that. And the thing is, and I think it's important for us not to just. And by us, I mean Democrats and Republicans that oppose this and anybody that comments on this, economic experts, not just Grant, not just let them off the hook and be like, well, they've never been serious about this. It's bullshit. Like, it's important to talk about this and make them own this because the, the reconciliation bill and Jonathan Cohen has a great article about this in our, in our pages the other day. Like, is going to be a massive debt bomb. Like, they have no, there's no agreement on what to cut. Like, they have no agreements on what to cut legislatively.

JVL (63:22)

Right, right.

Tim Miller (63:23)

Nothing. Like, like there is, some people want to cut snaps. If you want to cut Medicaid. There's no agreement on the Republican side. There is agreement on extending the tax cuts which is going to cost another 5 trillion on top of the, on top of the debt. And so like they're like, probably there's a very range of outcomes including that they don't get their shit together and reconciliation doesn't pass. I think that's a minority outcome. But possible they come, they do some cuts that are harmful to their own voters. That's possible. I think the most likely solution is that they just end up deciding, fuck, we can't agree on this stuff. We'll just jam through the tax extender on reconciliation. We'll progress, pretend like we can that that'll pay for itself because the laugher curve and just boom. And they're just going to drop another 5 trillion on top of it. And so I think it's in that context especially it is important to use their own arguments and words against them about why like the, the interest on the debt issue is so like such a big problem for the country.

JVL (64:21)

We also have to talk about Canada, yet another country that is handling its democracy better than we are. It's really great getting shown up on the democracy front over and over and over across the, across the world. The French, South Koreans, the Canadians, the Brazilians.

Tim Miller (64:42)

Secret voting in the parliamentary system looking more and more appealing to me. But go ahead.

JVL (64:46)

The parliamentary system is looking more, more appealing, I'm not gonna lie. But here's what I love. Not only did Mark Carney win, but Pierre Polivar lost his seat. This guy was 10 weeks ago on a glide path to being the next prime minister. And instead he is literally out of elected office. That is a reversal of fortune worthy of the bard himself.

Tim Miller (65:17)

You and Paul Ryan, you could call up Paul and they could be on the board of some Canadian conservative, the.

JVL (65:24)

Canadian Fox, whatever Canadian Fox is.

Tim Miller (65:27)

Yeah, whatever.

JVL (65:28)

So Sarah, Tim did a 40 minute show with JJ on this. JJ, I guess, who had just moved into a new house or something. It was a very interesting.

Tim Miller (65:39)

His camera setup where he's like, he was in Toronto.

JVL (65:44)

It was wild. It was great. Sarah, did it, did it give you a lot of feels watching the Canadians handle their business?

Sarah Longwell (65:51)

Yeah. I mean, here's the thing. Let me just read to you what Donald Trump tweeted the day of the election. Good luck to the great people of Canada. Elect the man who has the strength and wisdom to cut your taxes in half. Was he going to cut them in half? Boy, increase your military power for free to the highest level in the world. Have your car steal aluminum, lumber, energy and all the other business quadruple triple in size with zero tariffs or taxes. If Canada becomes the cherished 51st state, state of the United States of America. No more artificially drawn line for many years ago. Guys, I love this artificially drawn lines. Does this guy love borders or doesn't he love borders? I don't know.

JVL (66:32)

You can't have a country if you don't have a border.

Sarah Longwell (66:34)

Look how beautiful this land mass would be. Free access with no border. All positives. With no negatives. It was meant to be exclamation point. America can no longer subsidize Canada. With the hundreds of billions of dollars a year that we've been spending in the past, it makes no sense unless Canada is a state. And I bet Paul Vier was like, no, thank you. No, thank you, sir.

JVL (66:56)

Kidding me? I'm already dead.

Sarah Longwell (67:01)

I. I mean, I'm not. Donald Trump really lost the election for this guy and over nothing else. I mean, the liberals in Canada had.

JVL (67:09)

Like, Trump ended his career, had done.

Sarah Longwell (67:11)

A lot to make people mad. Like, people were done with Justin Trudeau. They were done with Trudeau. Ism. This guy was going to win, ended his career. Thank you. Donald Trump ended it.

Tim Miller (67:23)

You know, the funny thing was in the same interview where Trump was talking about how the Russia 24 hours solving the war thing was really just a gag. A funny gag. The interviewer then is asking, well, what about the 51st state thing? That's a gag, right? And he's like, repeat. Is like, no, I'm dead serious. They're meant to be the 51st state. So, you know, it's just a good lesson for anybody who's doing the seriously, literally thing, trying to, you know, trying to determine what, what's a joke and.

JVL (67:49)

Not so important as, as JJ said to you, Tim, this election really did hinge on the idea of is America a menace like that's what it was, a binary choice. Is America a danger to Canada? And Canadians overwhelmingly said yes. And that is shocking. Shocking. I mean, anybody who has spent 40 years watching the relationship between America and Canada, it's like that Canadian politics was settled on the question of, well, crap, is America an actual menace to our freedom? And Canadian has concluded that it was.

Tim Miller (68:35)

This relates back to the Gretchen Whitmer topic again. So I'm going to do another and another thing about Gretchen Whitmer, because fixing all of this requires a total repudiation of Trumpism.

Sarah Longwell (68:46)

Yes.

Tim Miller (68:46)

Like not just a defeat, but a repudiation. Right. In a way. And that's why I remember being kind of sad in 2020 when Joe Biden won, because I knew even though he won that like actually winning the actual fight required a win that was much bigger. That was a total repudiation of Trump. And, and that's like where we are again. And maybe that'll never happen. I don't know. But that's something that is worth fighting for. That is a noble endeavor. Because the Canadian, if you're the Canadians, right. If you're Mark Carney and he wins two four year, let's say he wins two four year terms, let's say Trump leaves and let's say J.D. vance wins. Right. Let's say they have a real election, there's a handoff and the Democrats nominated lunatic and JD Vance wins and whatever. I don't, you know, who, who the hell knows what the future holds. And JD Says, you know, that was more of a Trump thing, the 51st state stuff. Like, I'm trying, I want to re. Engage with the Canadians. Could you possibly trust that or even forget if it was J.D. vance, it's some other Republican, right. Like some other somebody that worked for Trump or that was so supportive of Trump. If you're a candidate, you're like, I guess we could maybe do a little similar deals on the side here. But I'm like sleeping with one eye open, you know, Like, I cannot, I cannot rebuild in the full, in a full way. I cannot rebuild a similar type of alliance with somebody that was the wingman or a supporter of the person that was menacing the country.

JVL (70:10)

Well, also, Tim, it wouldn't be politically feasible because Canadian voters.

Tim Miller (70:15)

Great point.

JVL (70:16)

Probably wouldn't tolerate it. Right. So even, even if it was, even if it did make sense, I think it would be politically, it would be politically infeasible. Right. I mean, he's, he's changed that. The nature of that relationship for a.

Sarah Longwell (70:31)

Generation turned Good friends into bad enemies. We're not bad enemies. They're not. They're the Canadians.

JVL (70:38)

But no, they're not our. They're not our. And we're their enemies. It's really. It's really something.

Sarah Longwell (70:42)

Can I just say one really quick thing on this?

JVL (70:44)

Yeah.

Sarah Longwell (70:44)

Did you see that? I was in Mark Carney's ad.

JVL (70:47)

I was gonna say you and Scott Jennings. Is that who it was?

Tim Miller (70:50)

You and Scott Jennings represent all that's wrong with American politics. I know the Canadians do not want to turn into them where they're at each other's throats and it's Sarah and Scott Jennings yelling at each other.

Sarah Longwell (71:01)

Yes. Do you know that that just meant a lot to me though, because that was the day that Scott Jennings said that Donald, that anti Semitism was entirely on the left. And that was me telling him, do you remember when Donald Trump invited Nick Fuentes and Kanye west and the other anti Semites over for dinner at Mar a Lago and I forced him to admit it and to say, Donald Trump shouldn't have done that. And then when he put it out on social media, he cut that part out. He edited it selectively. But don't worry, Scott Jennings is going to be the next senator from Kentucky, I presume, because Donald Trump is going to make it. So. So I hope it's. I hope it's worth it.

JVL (71:43)

So this is fascinating to me. One other part on this, watching that closing ad which featured you in the B roll. Mark Carney, who is like, I don't like. He is a, as Trump would say, central casting for a leader. Like, I mean, the guy just looks like he should be head of state or IMF or like just like this. This is a guy who's an executive in charge of stuff, everything about it.

Sarah Longwell (72:12)

He used to be in charge of imf.

JVL (72:14)

I think so. Or maybe it was the European bank or something.

Tim Miller (72:17)

Bank of England.

JVL (72:18)

Bank of England, yeah. For him to say, if America wants to be weak and divided, that's their business. Up here we're strong and unified. I was like, man, that is a dagger. Because it's a truth bomb. Right? I mean, that is, you know, we've got this, this guy running around talking about everything is strength and strong and the country is like getting weaker. Like, you see the seams starting to fray and it's great. It's all great.

Tim Miller (72:48)

So much weaker. I mean, how will we not look at the good? Who just seems like, is there any objective party that would look at what is happening with China right now and Feels like we're in the stronger position. So anybody that, I mean, like, that it's not just a total maga sycophant that would say that we're in the stronger position? I don't think so.

JVL (73:06)

All right, last thing, last thing to hit. This is. God, this is amazing. Pete had success. I'm just going to read it, let you guys talk about it. This morning, I proudly ended the Women Peace and Security Program inside the Department of Defense. It was yet another woke divisive social justice Biden initiative that overburdens our commanders and troops. He said that it was pushed by feminists and left wing activists. The Women Peace and Security Program was a law signed by Donald Trump in 2017 that was co sponsored by Marco Rubio and Kristi Noem.

Tim Miller (73:51)

Ivanka was a big advocate for it as well.

JVL (73:53)

This is a level of. You guys remember the old thing about the Soviets and what they would do with the pictures? So there'd be a picture of Stalin sitting on a sofa surrounded by his minions. And then as the minions would be unpersoned and sent off to the gulags and shot in the head, that picture would like come down. They would go in and airbrush out whoever had just been disappeared. And so you'd get like a version of the. Which is like Stalin on a sofa and a hole and then another guy standing over here because he was the last one, one left who hadn't been killed. And it was the kind of shameless propaganda. Propagandizing isn't really, really what it is. But it's about rewriting the past by the new dictates of the present. And this is as pure distillation of that as I can possibly imagine. This is our government.

Tim Miller (74:51)

It's great stuff. I mean, I don't, I don't want to pretend like I know a lot about the Women Peace Initiative, but like the tone of all of it is also just so. To me, it ties with the Draco Malfoy press conference and you know, like the other thing, like the thing that I was referencing where his chief of staff, before he got fired was talking about pooping in the Situation Room and, and like just, and then the Trump unseriousness about the 51st, like all of this. And then you have the Secretary of Defense, like, tweeting like Trump, but it's like, I'm going to do this Trump imitation. It's like this is weak and woke in all caps. It's like, it's not, this is not how you run anything, you know, this is not how you run a world. This is not how you run the biggest bureaucracy in the world. And it's a fucking embarrassment.

JVL (75:40)

The good news is we don't run the world anymore. So the world. The world is going to be run without us.

Tim Miller (75:45)

Yeah.

JVL (75:46)

That's great. Sarah, did you read anything good about American exceptionalism this week?

Sarah Longwell (75:53)

I did read your newsletter. And, oh, when I saw the title, I was like, I'm gonna murder him. And then I only read the first part, which was just like, the Van Jones stuff. And I, like, couldn't. And then it, like, started. And it was, like, started with baseball. So I was like, this isn't for me. It's I hate America plus. And then. And then I got. And then, oh, Tim texted me.

Tim Miller (76:13)

Yeah.

Sarah Longwell (76:13)

And he was like, oh, yeah. And then when I put in the slack, like, you're killing me, man. Tim texted me and he was like, you should read it. It's pretty good, actually. And so I did.

Tim Miller (76:23)

I don't think I said, actually, thank you.

JVL (76:26)

This is a. Sarah uses that word like a dagger with me. The number of times that Sarah's compliments of JVL are punctuated by the word actually is really something.

Tim Miller (76:40)

Actually, no, I did say actually. I'm looking at my text. I did say actually. I was softening it for Sarah. I thought it was a private conversation. Now here we are on the podcast that said I'm dead. It was really good. We've got one more item. I gotta advise and extend something.

JVL (77:04)

Okay, bring it out. Bring it out.

Tim Miller (77:05)

Since we've been. Since we've been talking, you have an updated statement from the Jeffries team that is doing some damage control in this story. The spokesperson said this is patently false and thinly sourced innuendo. Kind of a weird attack, given that the spokesperson didn't respond when given the first opportunity. But see that here nor there. When Leader Jeffries says more is more pushback on this lawless administration, he means it. As leader Jeffries has repeatedly said House Democrats will never stop free fighting for the release of Mr. Abrego Garcia. And I think Jeffries himself also popped off on this, saying that essentially he's for people doing more, whether that be site visits here or abroad. So there you go. I think a lot of times in these situations, having been on the receiving end of this as a flack, sometimes the sources were wrong. I don't think that's the case here. Sometimes, you know, once something is out into the public, you decide maybe that the public posture should be a little Bit different. So there you go. I'm happy that the Jeffries team has cleared that up. And if more folks want to go down to Sakat, they should, and I'd encourage them to do so. Jbl. I know that I said that was the last thing, but I hate doing this on a show where I said, I want to hear your take on the Larry Summers interview. And then we moved on and you never gave it to me.

JVL (78:31)

They're gonna have to wait. They're gonna have to wait.

Sarah Longwell (78:33)

No, don't do it. I have wait for the secret. I prepped to figure out that what a ball in a field is or what a bowl in a field. That's great.

Tim Miller (78:41)

That's a good tease. They can read for the secret, you guys. And then I will listen as a consumer. And by then I will maybe have listened to the full interview without dozing off.

JVL (78:49)

Yeah. Unlikely. There. Is there. No. It's an amazing interview. There is a moment very late. This is only. Only in the secret portion of the next level do you get this level of detail where Larry Summers yawns in the middle of the COVID And we are two guys who are. Who are in there a little. They're in their silver years.

Tim Miller (79:11)

Bill is writing a daily morning newsletter. I know Bill is vigorous.

JVL (79:16)

I know it was great. Larry Summers is allowed to yawn. Guys. Hit. Like hit. Subscribe, follow the channel. And if you want to come see us in Nashville or Chicago, Chi Town, get your tickets soon because we are on the verge of selling out our biggest venue yet, and it's pretty exciting.

Sarah Longwell (79:37)

Chicago is about to be sold out any second, so you might as well just everybody come to Nashville, guys.

JVL (79:44)

We'll see you later. Good luck, America.