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- [00:00]
A
Hello, everyone. This is Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark. If you guys love the Next level with me, Tim, and jbl, we think you're gonna like the Secret Podcast. It's a show that JVL and I do every Friday, but it is behind the paywall. And one of the reasons we do the Secret Podcast is it's one of the only products here at the Bulwark that we ask people to pay for. It's what you get if you're a Bulwark plus subscriber or if you subscribe to this feed on Apple Podcasts. That's an interesting show. JBL and I, we fight about our worldview. Are the voters good or bad? We go deep on the issues of the day. We often talk through what we're thinking. We don't just tell you what we're sure we're thinking, but we wrestle with the ideas. We wrestle with each other. So come join us.
- [01:00]
B
Hello, everyone. This is JVL here with my best friend, Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark. I'll do the head. Bop, bop, bop, bop. Happy Friday, Sarah. I am coming to you from my North Kakalaki satellite office. I haven't decorated it yet. That's okay.
- [01:18]
A
When we were doing tnl, I was like, jbl, are you in a hostage situation? You were just like, I'm not in a hostage situation.
- [01:24]
B
I didn't mean it. I was just. This was a very hard week for me with reentry. I would say after a week of literally nothing. I didn't check my email once.
- [01:33]
A
I know. I didn't hear from you for a week. It was so weird.
- [01:36]
B
Yeah, it was. Not having Donald Trump in my head for nine days was amazing. And I am looking forward to the point in our lives when that can be a permanent thing.
- [01:55]
A
I, too, am looking forward to that.
- [01:57]
B
By which I mean he retires to mar a lago to paint landscapes like George W. Bush. That's why.
- [02:02]
A
Sure. That's probably what's going to happen.
- [02:05]
B
Okay, so, big show today. It's going to be great. And. But you wanted to start out by talking about the baby boomers, and I have no idea where you're going to go with this, but I'm really curious.
- [02:17]
A
Oh, you don't know why I wanted to talk about this?
- [02:20]
B
No.
- [02:20]
A
Did you not go and look at the comments from the recent tnl?
- [02:26]
B
No, I have not gotten to this again this week. I am digging out of, like, a full nine days of emails and comments, and so I have not gotten to The T L comments from last week. What. What did they say?
- [02:41]
A
Okay, so let me just read the top comment, which has 1.3000 likes. Oh, okay.
- [02:50]
B
That's a lot of likes for a comment.
- [02:52]
A
It is a lot of likes for a comment. Says, as a 75 year old woman who has participated in several protests against Trump, I take, I take exception to your fun making comments about the age and effectiveness of the senior protesters. At least we're showing up and doing all that we can to stop this fascist takeover of our country. And there's 154 replies in which people say like, yes, you know, they were, I'm 71 and I'm tired of the flip attitude toward older folks. And I was like, what did we say?
- [03:24]
B
Okay, first of all, that's Tim. That's Tim. That is not you or me. Tim was like, it's the library lady protests. That was Tim, not us.
- [03:34]
A
No, it was him. But I also, but. Well, I went back and watched the. Both places we talked about it and I was like, my gosh, did I see something mean? Because in my head I was like, I was being, I was, it was meant as a compliment.
- [03:45]
B
They're not throwing bricks through windows. They're showing up and doing like the best possible versions of protests.
- [03:51]
A
Yeah, but I was also, and this is where I just, I want to be very clear. And this is, we're going to do this in the public section of the podcast so that everyone can hear it, which is I heart boomers who are out on the street. This just happened on the way down. There were three separate pockets of people protesting. Now they were definitely all boomers. They were exactly as I was describing. But what I was saying things like, you know, I was contrasting Donald Trump and Republicans. The way they talk about protesters is to say, you know, their purple hair and their nose rings as though like everybody is a freak who's out there protesting. And I was saying, actually, and this happened as I was, I was like, you know, it's like 70 year old women in straw hats. And I was, as I was coming down, there was a 70. Well, I mean, I don't know exactly how old she was. There's an, a woman of, of, of advanced but still spry age wearing a straw hat, sitting in a folding chair holding her sign. And, and, and men in, in their, in their, you know, Nationals ball caps and T shirts with their belts and their, and this is not meant to say. That was not meant disparagingly. It's meant deeply, affectionately and also to Prove that the way that the Trump folks try to cast the people who are protesting is ridiculous. That's not, it's not a bunch of. It's not the, the women's march where with people wearing sort of, you know, the hats of genitalia, which. God bless the women's march. I was never a big fan of the hats, but I am a huge fan of people who turn up and turn out and are holding these signs.
- [05:39]
B
Like the no Kings protests were unbelievably impressive and exactly the type. Right. It was not disorderly. It did not look like antifa's and stuff like. Yeah, no, I'm with you. You and look, you and I are on the side of the angels. We don't need to protest too much here. You are a boomer who was offended by Tim Miller.
- [05:58]
A
I know. I think they were offended by me. This, this was the thing. If it was just Tim, I would let it ride. But I think people thought I. If people want to disagree with me in the comments, I'd. I don't care usually. But when I think they have me wrong or like they've misunderstood my intention that I do want to respond to.
- [06:14]
B
I was picking up what you were laying down. I was picking up what you were. I got a question for you about protests. So I woke up this morning to see a story from. From your neighborhood occupied Washington. And it was that people have decided to start heckling the militarized presence which seems to be some combination of National Guard cpb. I mean who can tell because they're all dressed like they're Seal Team 6 now. And the, the one bon mot which I saw was a lady who in my mind's eye, again, this is just a quote. I didn't see an image, but in my mind's eye she was a 70 year old lady in a straw hat. Which makes this better. Standing there and just going like full Dawn Rickles one of these cosplay guys. Get a hobby, you piece of shit. And I don't know what your feelings are on this, but I, I could not endorse this mode of protest enough. Heckle them. Heckle them. Just stand there like a stream of like you are Triumph the insult comic dog. And heckle these people. I love that. Get a hobby. Did you try, ever try therapy? Like, you know, instead of doing this, like, you know, do you need help? Find a job. Come to, you know, I'll pay you to do my gardening. I don't know. What does it feel like to work for a guy named a 19 year old named Big Balls. You know, I, I just, I feel like heckling is really, maybe this is juvenile on my part.
- [07:52]
A
So I would say, look, I'm not going to scold people for doing what they feel like is the right thing in the moment. I do think it wouldn't be. I'm not sure. I think heckling, I always, you know, I'm going to veer towards. What I love is actually what the people are doing, because that is part of the reason that, that everyone's out in force and there's these. They're holding signs. And I think that what, what I want is for nobody to give these guys an excuse. And there's this story, like the big story right now about the enforcement level is that a Department of justice employee, a guy named Sean Charles Dunn, he was fired and arrested for throwing a sandwich at a federal officer in Washington.
- [08:32]
B
Subway sandwich, which are the most dangerous forms of, you know, you know, Sarah, this sort of terrorist act they're called in many cultures, torpedo subs, because they are such weapons.
- [08:45]
A
Sure. Well. And you know what I mean. No shade to Subway, but the bread's not always that soft. So, you know, it probably, it probably they, they let the, they let them go a couple days too long, in my opinion. And so probably it probably hurts.
- [08:57]
B
Was it an armor piercing roll? Was it the shorty roll with the armor piercing shorty? I love that these, the, the, the militarized cops now dress in like full body armor so that they could, they could. They look like they're an extra out of the movie Black Hawk down. And yet they're so fragile that somebody's throwing a sandwich at them. It's assault.
- [09:24]
A
Oh, no. You can't throw things at cops. Like, I just. You can't. You can't throw things at cops. Okay. But sure. However, I do. But the guy who threw the sandwich, again, Department of Justice, American hero, he's at 14th in you, which is like just where you would go to a bar. Like, for people who don't live in D.C. this is just sort of not hipster, but it's, it's mainline. I'm hanging out, drinking on a Saturday night, and this is a great part of town to do it in. But the guy said he was yelling at the officers, including calling them fascists, before throwing a Subway sandwich at a CBP agent. He was later quoted as saying, I did it. I threw a sandwich. But he's been charged with felony assault on a federal officer because they're going.
- [10:11]
B
To make Rittenhouse Killed two people and went free. But they're going to try to put this guy in jail for throwing a Subway sandwich.
- [10:19]
A
Yeah, there's. There's more. They. They also, he showed up for his court appearance, and then they sent like, 20 agents to his house. And this. So here's the thing for me. I do not think American hero. I think guy who was drunk at Subway, saw these guys in the street, got super pissed off. And so I can identify with him. But I want to go on the record firmly as saying, you cannot ever throw things at cops, number one. Number two, this is what they want, right? They want to instigate these kinds of things so that they have more of a pretext for cracking down, which is why I think the sort of holding the signs adjacent to them but not giving them any excuses is just, from a strategic standpoint, the best way to go.
- [11:06]
B
I think people in D.C. ought to walk around everybody holding a Subway sandwich and sort of fake throw, fake throw it. Be like, oh, oh, oh, you're gonna. Gonna. Gonna come at me because you have a reasonable expectation that I'm gonna use deadly sandwich force at you, tough guy. No open carry of subway sandwiches in D.C. sarah.
- [11:30]
A
Yeah. And look, I don't want to get all, like, Nuremberg here about how they're just doing their jobs. Like, the individual cops I have much less of a beef with than I do, than I do with the people who sent them there. Right. With Donald Trump. And so, again, I don't want to give them a pretext. But here's one of the things about D.C. geographically and what the cops are doing hanging out at 14th and U. I'm not saying there's no crime there. I'm saying, like, that's not where the crime is. If you think, like, they're in Georgetown, like, what are they doing? They're defending the Georgetown cupcake store or, like, the peloton classes or, you know, the soul cycle. Like, whatever this is where they are, is meant to be visible to the people who do national politics, because that's where they live, right? And people who work at doj, it is not about stopping crime. If they wanted to do that, they would be operating in a completely different way than they are, and they would be going to neighborhoods where they would be trying to talk to the residents and say, hey, you know, where. Where. Where do you feel threatened? Like, where do you feel unsafe?
- [12:48]
B
And it's almost like it has nothing to do with stopping.
- [12:51]
A
It is almost like it has nothing to do with stuff. And so it is all Performance, it is all about trying to get people like this guy to do things that they can then say. See, like, they want them to act like antifa. And so I just strategically, my what I would say to people is don't. Don't throw anything through a window. Don't throw anything at the cops. Don't give them any excuses, but show up, like, do show up to say something.
- [13:20]
B
So, so this is why I so large agree. Don't give them pretext, right? Don't throw bricks, don't throw rocks, don't throw frozen water bottles. Put. The reason I say American Hero about the guy who threw the sandwich is because there is something so ridiculous about it and so patently not dangerous that I think there's the chance of exposing overreach on the part of the fascists in a way that breaks through to people. Right? Do you see what I'm saying? Like, it is, it is a. Because that's, that's how I mean, if these things work, if, if protests work, it is often because they make the authoritarians unpopular. And they become unpopular because the authoritarians go one step too far without realizing it. They go one step beyond what the populace is willing to accept in something like, I got hit by a sandwich in my body armor. And so I call that assault. But it's just, it's fucking ridiculous. It's ridiculous. And I think that has the potential to, to mean something, right? That has the potential to become a symbol that other people can latch onto, right? They could walk around the city with their Subway sandwiches in their hands and be like, oh, careful there, big guy. I don't want to hurt you with my turkey club.
- [14:55]
A
This is not the right response in this moment, but I do need to say, if we're gonna pick a sandwich shop, it's gonna get a big boom of business. Can it be a different sandwich shop?
- [15:11]
B
Subway. It's the shop of the people, the people's shop.
- [15:14]
A
Sarah. Oh, man, here's I both. Look, I want to be firmly on the record.
- [15:20]
B
Panera. Oh, bougie. Sarah. Which is. It was Panera.
- [15:25]
A
I mean, it could be from Wawa. I, I, you know, there's a lot of wawas down here where you could. But I just. Listen, I am not trying to arm people with sandwiches. That is not. I want to be firmly on the record that I'm against throwing things at police officers. I do, however, think that your point about if you know that Banksy photo, I used to, like, have this when I went through, like, a Banksy phase of the Guy poised to throw a Molotov cocktail and he's got his face covered in a bandana. Do you know what I'm talking about? There's this, I don't. And he's about, it's like his arms back, he's going to launch what you would assume is a Molotov cocktail. He looks like a protester. He's got flowers in his hand. Like, what immediately strikes you about that is it takes the posture of somebody ready to be violent and aggressive and arms them with a symbol of peace and a symbol of, you know, giving somebody something alive.
- [16:25]
B
Subway 9 inch Turkey Club is now a symbol of peace.
- [16:28]
A
Sarah and I, well, I think the 9 inch Turkey Club, it's like, it's a different version of that. Where it is, it does elevate to like they're throwing sandwiches. Doesn't sound that hostile. It does, right? It sounds right.
- [16:42]
B
That's what I'm saying. It's didn't even throw it in his face, just threw it at his gigantic armored chest plate. Like, I'm sorry, if, if you as a law enforcement officer can't shrug that off, then you should find a different job. Right.
- [17:00]
A
Well that's, that's just not how this is going to go because they are going to use everything that happened. Like they're gonna throw the book at this guy and try to make an example out of him. But like if organically what happened is a bunch of people picked up sandwiches in his stead. But again, I do wanna, I, I am like, I cannot tell you the intensity of the reaction that I have to seeing these people on the streets of Washington D.C. doing in like the craziest places that have no crime.
- [17:35]
B
I'm so glad to not be living in that fucking city.
- [17:38]
A
It is, it is, it is, it's, it's so disgusting. And yet I just, I, I just, I'm worried about people throwing things at cops because I know that's what they want. And also General and, and these, these individual cops were deployed here. I mean, maybe they should quit or like, I, I, I'm not get a different job. Yeah. I mean there is part of what's happening is that I am even getting, it's even getting harder for me to, I've always been like more pro than anti cop. I want police to be professional. Like I, they help people and I want them to continue to help people. Of course they do.
- [18:18]
B
Okay.
- [18:19]
A
Of course they do. And I just, I'll let you know.
- [18:23]
B
The next time I see a police officer helping someone.
- [18:26]
A
You've never been helped by a police officer.
- [18:28]
B
Never once in my life.
- [18:29]
A
Oh, my God. I have.
- [18:32]
B
I've been canceled by police officers.
- [18:35]
A
I mean, yeah, I mean, I guess I've gotten speeding tickets and had. But I don't know, man. You never, like, crashed a car and had police there to help you? Okay, well, I did. Or like, get locked out of your apartment and have a cop kick in the door to help you out? No, I did. I don't know. And, like, I grew up in such a small place that I knew the police officers. Like, I knew them, I knew their families. And so I don't have, I do have an inherent distrust of authority, but I also, I also don't, like, reflexively dislike police officers. I do, however, think that the deference that I might have given to the types of people who are on the streets of Washington, D.C. has been shifting somewhat as you see the kinds of people that Trump is actively recruiting to do these jobs. And I think anybody who covers their face is not acting professionally as to then give people, like to instill in people then the reciprocal professional courtesy that one should give police officers and just each other. Like, a part of it is me just being like, I don't like it when people are awful to each other. Right. I want people to be decent to each other. But, yeah, like, you can't cover your faces and then expect people to treat you like you are part of the civic force that is meant to be like, I'm, I'm, I'm with you.
- [20:08]
B
I want to be treated like a civic force. They want to be treated like they're in charge. Yeah, they, they, they are not there to be co. Citizens upholding law and order. They are there to lord over the people. That's what these guys are there for.
- [20:27]
A
That is what Donald Trump wants them to do.
- [20:29]
B
Anybody who covers their faces as a, as an agent of the state is not there to be a member of the public or to protect the public. They're there to subjugate the public.
- [20:42]
A
I do think that's what's happening right now, although I don't know that it's like, it's, it's weird what they're doing here. There's, there's like, checkpoints.
- [20:56]
B
Good God.
- [20:57]
A
It's like there was one the other night. I was, I was out with, with friends, and one of them, like, on the way home was like, there's a checkpoint on. Remember if it was Capitol Hill? But that kind of stuff is bizarre. I've always hated checkpoints. Sobriety or otherwise. Like, they are not. They're not constitutional, number one. Like, it's a legal search and seizure. Not that they, not that they take stuff out, but, like, you can't just, like, set up a checkpoint and be like, show me your papers because you want to catch.
- [21:34]
B
Sure as hell can.
- [21:35]
A
I mean. Yeah, well, this is where. Okay, we can have a longer conversation about why I've always opposed sobriety checkpoints and that the fact that we've gotten used to them as a country has now, like, we should never have had checkpoints anywhere. The only time you should put up checkpoints is if there's a BOLO out for a murderer and Dr. Richard Kimball has gotten.
- [21:58]
B
Gotten out from the prison train. And we've got to set up a five mile perimeter to see if we can get. Yeah. All right, we got to talk about conservatism now.
- [22:06]
A
Yeah, let's do it.
- [22:07]
B
And this is going to be a thing which I think is not quite a niche subject. But, you know, if. If you guys want to hear us go very, very deep on the true nature of conservatism and whether or not it was always inevitable that conservatism would wind up where Donald Trump is, then you're going to have to come and, and join up. So come and subscribe. Be part of Bulwark Plus. We'd love to have you.