1008: Gavin Goes FULL TRUMP! Tucker DROOLS Over Dictatorship! Trump’s CULT Has COPS?!

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Next Level
Episode: 1008: Gavin Goes FULL TRUMP! Tucker DROOLS Over Dictatorship! Trump’s CULT Has COPS?!
Date: August 20, 2025
Hosts: JVL (Jonathan V. Last), Tim Miller, Andrew Sullivan (sitting in for Sarah Longwell)

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Main Theme / Episode Overview

This episode is a layered, satirical yet deeply serious analysis of recent political and cultural shifts, focusing on:

• The alarming normalization and theatricality of federal police/militarization in D.C. under Trump
• The right’s open flirtation with authoritarianism, as showcased by Tucker Carlson and others
• Gavin Newsom’s adoption of “Trumpist” online persona tactics, and the broader implications for Democratic strategy and political culture
• The rise of media-hungry MAGA state officials and their influence on GOP politics
• The complicated quest for Democrats to rebrand and recapture working- and middle-class authenticity, as illustrated by a new Senate candidate in Maine

The conversation weaves together real-time news, sociopolitical analysis, and pop culture, maintaining the Bulwark’s signature mix of urgency, sarcasm, and banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s “Federal Police” and D.C. Militarization

• JVL introduces the recent viral video revealing “agents of the state” violently arresting a delivery man in D.C. (02:00). Both he and Tim Miller warn that the growing normalization of “armed thugs” policing the nation’s capital should not be brushed off as a distraction:

  “It's not actually a distraction when the nation's capital has militarized by a federal police force and armed thugs are jumping out of cars…tackling random doordash drivers. I think that's something that we should engage with on the merits.” — Tim Miller (02:25)

• The expansion and public pervasiveness of ICE, including new “ICEmobiles” branded with Trump’s name, are discussed as political theater, both menacing and carnival-esque. Andrew Sullivan points out:

  "The end game here is not…to get crime rates down...the point of conflict is the point of it. That kind of explains why they are behaving the way they are after these arrests." (08:25)

• All hosts agree that this spectacle—part security, part show—serves both as red meat for MAGA tourists and a recruitment drive for more agents, while incidentally exposing the cultishness of the Trump regime.

Memorable Moment:

“I bet...they're kind of like Disneyland characters…like Beetlejuice at Universal…closer to a Universal Studios character…than they are law enforcement.” — Tim Miller (13:52)

2. Authoritarianism, Caesarism & Right-Wing Thought-Leaders

• The team analyzes Tucker Carlson’s alarming podcast remarks about the inevitability of "Caesarism" (dictatorship), and how such ideas are gaining mainstream traction on the American right:

  "I think Caesarism is a natural life cycle of any civilization." — Anonymous guest (played by Tucker Carlson, 23:48)

• Andrew Sullivan and JVL stress that while the right-wing warns against an oligarchic left, in reality, plutocrats seem quite content under Trump-style strongman rule:

  “At this moment, the strongman and the oligarchs are getting along just fine.” — Andrew Sullivan (25:05)

• Tim Miller is especially bothered by the intellectual normalization of right-wing authoritarianism by influencers like Ben Shapiro and J.D. Vance:

  "It's gone from, 'This is crazy and alarmist' to, 'It is inevitable—and I'm kind of here for it.'" (30:43)

• The panel reflects on how the concept of “oligarchs” is redefined by the right to mean anyone with a college degree or professional standing, rather than true economic elites.
• JVL notes this shift from “authoritarian means dressed up in the language of democracy” to a new, open embrace of anti-democratic language by right-wing figures. (33:16–34:33)

3. Gavin Newsom’s “Full Trump” Schtick and Dem Political Culture

• The panel discusses Gavin Newsom’s new online persona, which apes Trump’s social media style (ALL CAPS, performative aggression), questioning if this is savvy, cringe, or dangerous:

  “It exposes the weird double standard whereby we believe that Donald Trump is a force of nature…but everyone else has agency and must be held to…standards of conduct.” — JVL (39:04)

• JVL and Tim see strategic merit, noting that “voters reward candidates who are really hungry” and that Democrats lack counterpunchers. Andrew Sullivan is skeptical—both on policy substance and whether “vibes” alone (as opposed to actual governing) should win elections.
• Tim’s worry: “It’s working too well…Gavin positioning himself as the one man who's fighting Trump becomes self-fulfilling…The train gets out the station…” (47:41)
• The hosts agree that “buddy fights” (oppositional showmanship) are, for now, what the political moment seems to reward, but they all express dyspepsia about its long-term consequences.

4. The MAGA State Official as Conservative Influencer: The Ryan Walters Story

• Andrew Sullivan reports on Oklahoma’s notorious Superintendent Ryan Walters, whose main focus is viral performance—not governance. Walters orchestrates minor culture war outrages designed to make national headlines (like demanding California/New York teachers pass PragerU tests or mandatory classroom “prayers for Trump”). (58:16–61:49)
• Even Oklahoma’s GOP leadership is exhausted with Walters, but his social media virality means he may yet “fail upwards.”

  “Even though he’s a total failure at the level of his state, he is still getting notoriety…not just from us…” — Andrew Sullivan (62:27)

• The team debates whether media coverage of such figures is useful or just feeds the outrage machine.

5. Reinventing the Democrats: The Case of Graham Platner in Maine

• Discussion of Maine’s new Senate candidate, Graham Platner—a grizzled, swearing, working-class, marine-vet/oysterman with left-populist policy positions. Is this the blueprint for a new Democratic brand?
• JVL: The mix of pro-worker, anti-oligarch, anti-forever war, but also not-supporting Dem leadership, is “half AOC, half Joe Rogan,” illustrating potential growth for Dems among blue-collar and male voters.
• Tim raises doubts about authenticity and the need for Dem “outsiders" who actually do break with party orthodoxy:

  “I want people who are like, ‘I fucking hate Donald Trump…and I also do think it’s crazy that trans girls are in boys sports…’” — Tim Miller (77:19)

• Andrew observes the “chicken and egg” problem: Democrats want such figures to “rebrand,” but until more are in office, the Dem label remains a “millstone.”
• All agree that Democrats need more authentic working-class voices to counter the perception that the party is solely the domain of college-educated elites.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On DC Policing

• “I do not like thugs who happen to have been given the ability to use deadly force on behalf of the state.” — JVL (04:21)

On the ICE-Mobiles Spectacle

• “These things are walking billboards…come work for ICE and you can whale on brown people and get to drive this really cool souped up Ford Mustang.” — JVL (11:26)

On the Campiness of Authoritarianism

• “Fascism is camp. Mussolini was camp. Gaddafi—who is more camp than Gaddafi?” — Tim Miller (15:13)

On Authoritarian Drift

• "Tucker is like essentially saying…we probably want it to be a friendly dictator. Like is essentially the point here…and like that there going to be violence…" — Tim Miller (29:59)

On Mainstreaming the Strongman

• “The Venn diagram of his supporters includes both people who believe he is an authoritarian and want it, and also people who believe that he's the only bulwark against authoritarianism from the left.” — JVL (26:34)

On ‘Buddy Fights’ and Voter Appetite

• “There is something in politics where voters reward candidates who are really hungry and…would run over their own grandmothers to be elected president.” — JVL (51:31)

On the Anxiety of Political Performance

• “I would like the fighting not to be the end in itself. I'd like…the fighting to be for something better, you know, something more aspirational…” — Tim Miller (49:09)

On the Chicken-and-Egg of Dem Rebranding

• “…Until you have some of these guys like in power as...figureheads…that has already started to change, the whole Democratic brand is still kind of a millstone around these guys necks.” — Andrew Sullivan (74:19)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• News of “Trump’s Cops” in DC: 01:52–18:51
• ICE-mobiles, spectacle, and political theater: 09:37–15:42
• Camp/Clownishness as camouflage for authoritarian drift: 14:05–15:42
• Open Authoritarianism & Tucker Carlson Clip: 22:52–35:21
• Democracy vs. Caesarism/Authoritarianism: 23:48–35:21
• Branding and incentives in conservative media: 31:56–33:36
• Gavin Newsom's new Trump-ish persona: 38:07–51:31
• Dem hunger for counter-punchers & “buddy fights”: 45:56–51:31
• Voters rewarding political hunger (analysis): 51:31–54:10
• MAGA influencer officials: Ryan Walters segment: 57:22–66:19
• Dem working-class rebranding: Graham Platner/Maine Senate segment: 67:59–78:42

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Tone and Highlights

• The tone is a mix of gallows humor, exasperated warning, and searching for optimism amid “dystopian” developments.
• The hosts poke fun at political theater (ICEmobiles as theme park mascots), call out doublespeak, and emphasize the importance—yet the peril—of meeting right-wing showmanship with left-wing swagger.
• Throughout, the panel maintains their trademark skeptical urgency and deep concern for liberal democratic norms, even as they embrace moments of absurdity and humor.

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Conclusion

This episode of The Next Level deftly excavates the interplay of authoritarian spectacle, right-wing influence, and the Democrats’ struggle to reinvent themselves without sliding into mere imitation or empty vibes. Using recent news as launchpads, the crew’s sharp banter and insightful analysis expose both the normalization of illiberal trends and the fraught search for authentic populist appeal in American politics.

Transcript

[Andrew Sullivan]

How do you make an Airbnb a.

[Tim Miller]

Vrbo Picture a vacation rental with a host. The host is dragging your family on a tour of the kitchen, the bathroom, the upstairs bathroom, the downstairs bedroom and the TV room, which, surprise, is where you can watch tv. Now imagine there's no host giving you a tour because there's never any hosts at all, ever.

[JVL]

Voila.

[Tim Miller]

You've got yourself a vrbo. Want a vacation that's completely and totally host free? Make it a vrbox.

[Andrew Sullivan]

How do you make an Airbnb a vrbo?

[Tim Miller]

Picture a vacation rental with a host who's showing you every room like you've.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Never seen a house before.

[Tim Miller]

Now get rid of them. There you go. No host ever. Now it's a verbo. Make it a verbo.

[JVL]

I have been increasingly thinking that actually second amendment stuff is a real growth opportunity for liberals to change course on. Because you know, we're about to need a well organized militia. Hello everyone. This is JVL here with my best friend Tim Miller of the Bulwark. And also sitting in for my other best friend who's not here is America's favorite ginger, Andrew Egger. America's sweetheart, you might even say of the Morning Shots newsletter at the at the Bulwark. Go to the bulwark.com sign up and subscribe to get Andrew's newsletter. It is sensational. It also features occasional contributions by one William Crystal. Wokebill Crystal. It's all great stuff.

[Tim Miller]

The Weasley family. The new movie, the new Harry Potter. There's a reveal of the new Weasley family. I don't know if you saw that photo. Very creepy. Very creepy. All the different redheads together and Andrew would have fit right in.

[Andrew Sullivan]

You got to space them out like we're doing on this podcast. One redhead per shot is typically what you want.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, that's right.

[JVL]

Okay, so guys, Bulwark broke a little news over the weekend with a video of men who claimed to be agents of the state wailing on a delivery man. We put that up by with little intro by Sam Stein. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills in all this because I, you know, I'm no longer in Washington and I'm looking on it from afar and I keep thinking to myself, this is an enormously big deal. And everyone else seems to be basically like, eh, you know, it's another Tuesday.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know if everyone else is like that. I don't want to reiterate my rant from Monday's podcast with Woke Bill Kristol about how Annoyed, I am about how many Democrats are calling it a distraction. It's not actually a distraction when the nation's capital has militarized by a federal police force and armed thugs are jumping out of cars on 14th street outside Le Diplomat tackling random doordash drivers. I think that's something that we should engage with on the merits. I don't think Donald Trump is doing, doing that, you know, distract from his Epstein cover up or the Medicaid cuts. I think it's, it's a proactive part of his agenda that needs to be pushed back on. It is, I mean, part of the reason why it's, I think maybe you feel like you're taking crazy pills and, and people are not as alarmed and vocal about this as possible is kind of something that is typical of Trump which is there is this like ridiculousness and ham handedness that, that comes with the menace, you know, like you see the video, I think on CNN yesterday I was watching this video of these poor guys. Maybe they're not poor guys, maybe they're maga. I don't know. They were, they were. Maybe they're just asked to be there, but they're in their fatigues drinking a Gatorade outside Union Station. The CNN reporter's like, what are you doing here? And he's like, I don't know, you know, doing what I was told, you know, and they're like, are you armed? He's like not allowed to be armed, you know, and it's like, do you have a mission? It's like we're here to protect D.C. right? So like at some level there's some very nefarious stuff happening. At another level, like there is just this preposterous, like scenes of people in military fatigues, you know, hassling people who are littering outside the Jefferson Monument, you know, and so I'm alarmed by it. I mean jbl, you and I are maybe a little bit more anti cop, generally anti. Anti federalist, not antisocial.

[JVL]

I don't characterize myself anti police. I am love professionalized law enforcement. I think law enforcement professionals deserve a tremendous amount of respect and are important and vital to a orderly and functional liberal society. I do not like thugs who happen to have been given the ability to use deadly force on behalf of the state.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, so last thing on this and we'll get eggers take. But like the other alarming part of this is like they're doing the same playbook. It's like the El Salvador playbook again. It's just they're doing it domestically. Right. And so, I mean, I think that the outrage should be commensurate with that because literally, you know, Caroline Levitt put out a statement about the video that we released us, but Politico, I think, and you know, where it was basically like that man was a, you know, criminal illegal migrant from Venezuela and you.

[JVL]

Know, and can't believe she didn't accuse him of trafficking.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And it was our gang member. She did say gang member. Criminal illegal migrant, gang member from Venezuela. And it was our police force that got injured that you should be care about one of them brave law enforcement. Yeah. One of the men concussed himself because there was like the 20 of them that were teasing and jumping on the guy got so, got so agitated that one of them hit the other one and then he got injured.

[JVL]

Can I ask you a question, Andrew? I'm gonna let you talk eventually, I promise. But Tim, look, I don't make presumptions, but I think you've probably had more close contact with criminal underground than I have.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Since you, you know, you're more of a joie de vivre kind of guy.

[Tim Miller]

That's true. Yeah. And more contact with police, more unwanted contact with police than you probably.

[JVL]

What is the point of being in a gang if you still have to drive for doordash? Right. Isn't. Isn't the idea that like you join a gang so that you don't have to have a street job and you can make money and buy your bling and drive your fancy sports? Like if you are also just working an entry level job, maybe you can do that without being in the gang.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I mean I, I knew some people that were Uber drivers and also had other side projects in my day. So I, I don't know that, that it is necessary necessarily mutually exclusive, but certainly you wouldn't expect a high level gang operative to be, you know, on a motorbike on 14th Street.

[JVL]

I wouldn't think maybe the delivery stuff is his side hustle when his main career is gang focused.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Professional life. And, and he's just on the low rungs because we all have to start out some. I mean, always just to point out how preposterous the whole thing is and how you cannot take even for a second seriously the statements made by the White House. Andrew, you are actually in Washington dc. How, how is occupied DC treating you these days?

[Andrew Sullivan]

I mean, it's still about the same as ever, right? I mean, it's like, it's exactly like you're talking about it's folks milling around with the occasional sort of like outbreak of this that most people, Again, even in D.C. most people are not experiencing this stuff as personal experiences. They're experiencing it the same way everybody else is because the video of what happened, you know, eight blocks away pops up in their, in their news feeds. And, and so it's like, you know, you could be just down the street or you could be in Topeka, Kansas. And, and you're, you're kind of lived experience.

[Tim Miller]

You're not seeing more fatigue 14th Street. You're not.

[Andrew Sullivan]

No, you do, you do you. When you, when you walk around. But, but as far as like the, the outbreaks like that, they're not so, you know, pervasive that, that like everybody's having these lived experiences yet a lot of people are. I, I did want to speak real quick to the, what you're talking about there in terms of how the White House is messaging this stuff, because I think it speaks to their goal here. Ordinarily, under ordinary circumstances, you'd see arrests like this taking place. I mean, the, the, the body making the arrests would go out of its way to be quite restrained with how they talk about it. Right? They would, they would not want to say anything.

[JVL]

Can't comment on an ongoing criminal matter.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Yeah, yeah. And there are reasons for that. And one of the reasons for that is that you don't. If you are actually apprehending like a real criminal who, who's dead to write on his actual crimes, you don't want to give that guy like, procedural reasons at trial to be able to wiggle, wiggle out of it by telling a judge, hey, look like this. These guys had it out for me. They were like pursuing some political purpose in apprehending me. And you can tell because of the, because of the way that law enforcement has been talking about it and lying about me ever since. I mean, like, that's, that, that is a real thing that, that real law enforcement, real actual professionals like you talk about JBL care about. But instead, I mean, the end game here is not to like, secure a ton of convictions for these people. The end game is just to get the pictures and the videos of the arrests, to make as many arrests as possible and to use that to feed a political narrative here and, and, and you know, to, to throw around the weight of the police. Like, like the, the. If, if you think about it in those terms, that the end goal is not to actually like, clean up the streets and get crime rates down and get, you know, actual lawbreakers locked up safely behind bars. But, but that the, the point of the arrest, the point of conflict is the point of it. That kind of explains why they are behaving the way they are after these arrests.

[JVL]

Andrew, have you seen any of the new ICE mobiles out on the streets of D.C. ?

[Andrew Sullivan]

Yes, just, you know, they're kind of hanging out around the monuments, which is not where I tend to hang out, but I drive right through there to get from my home in Alexandria to the office.

[Tim Miller]

Talk to me about that's an interesting place for them, the Batmobiles, the ICE mobiles that is protecting the homeland, protecting the Volk. Because I don't know, I mean, I haven't lived in D.C. for a few years now and I'm a liberal cuck when it comes to immigration and think that people who are here illegally, if they aren't violating any other crimes, should not be hassled and bothered. They should be able to live a life of purpose and meaning. But if I were serious about cracking down on illegal immigration and that was the purpose of this and that we wanted to go after people that were in the country illegally and I had kind of an ICE Batmobile that was going to go start nabbing them one at a time. I could think of other neighborhoods that I would want to put them in, you know, where you might have a higher, higher density maybe of undocumented migrants. And I don't, I don't think that, you know, that they're visiting the Smithsonian. I don't know, maybe you don't think.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Our great patriotic migrants want to come and hang out at the Lincoln Memorial.

[JVL]

And no, because you know what they are, those people are sick of how woke all these museums have gotten. And so they've been boycotting them.

[Tim Miller]

I think that they're also probably working, you know, and so they're kind of busy day to day in jobs, kitchens and whatnot. And so probably not just sort of hanging out. So I guess what purpose is there in the Mall? Are they trying to grab, grab tourist migrants? You know, people who came here illegally, overstayed their visa and while they're here, just wanted to experience the majesty of Washington.

[JVL]

This is our recruitment. These things are walking billboards. They've got to staff up. They've got to hire like 10,000 new agents at DHS over the course of the next three years and you know, $50,000 signing bonuses will only get you so far. They've also got to show, hey look, come work for ICE and you can whale on brown people and get to drive this really cool souped up Ford Mustang.

[Tim Miller]

So the Tulsa High kids that are on there on a, you know.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Yeah, my, my initial read on this stuff was that this is kind of the way Trump was talking about it, was that like all of this, the ICE and all the other agencies, the Alphabet soup agencies that are downtown now and especially concentrated around like the touristy parts of downtown, was that this was sort of like a, we must protect our, our brave Iowa and Indiana tourists from the crimes that were befalling them in such high quantities before. That's kind of the way that Trump has talked about it. But, but I have kind of come around to more what JBL is talking about. I think there's actually something real to this where it's like they are not there to protect, like, to, to ensure that, you know, your, your Middle America D.C. tourists have like a good unmolested D.C. experience. They're actually now kind of part of that D.C. experience. Like, like the idea of like, oh, we've got, we're taking our country back and we've got a president who's not going to put up with all this stuff anymore. Like, like, they are sort of the exhibit for all of that. Like you, you as sort of like a MAGA guy from Topeka, Kansas. Let's go back there again. You're a MAGA guy from Kansas and you're coming to D.C. to get the whole D.C. experience. And part of that experience is, wow, I get to see the Washington Monument and I get to see a Smithsonian or two and I get to see, you know, Donald Trump's crack troops, you know, owning the lynch in the middle of their business as they're, as they're cracking down pictures.

[Tim Miller]

I bet they're pictures with these guys might be an interesting thing for us to send an intern down to watch. But I bet the people are coming through and trying to. And they're kind of like Disneyland characters. Like, I was just at Universal. I think they might be kind of playing the role of like Beetlejuice at Universal or who are the characters from Wicked. Yeah, Elphaba.

[JVL]

And what, you know, maybe, maybe some enterprising immigrants could go down and just charge $5 to take, take selfies of the Kansas tourists with the ICE officers. Just like Times Square.

[Tim Miller]

They're more doing that than they're doing. I mean, they are closer to a Universal Studios character, that Scooby Doo that you want to get a picture with than they are law enforcement.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Can I say something about that too? Which is just like you guys Were talking before about sort of like the sliding scale of, like, is this ominous? Is this cartoonish? Is it. Is, is it like something to laugh at? Is it something to fear? And I feel like it's. It really is both. And not only is it both, but like the two things sort of reinforce each other, right? Like the, the goofiness of it all and the clownishness and the, the sort of camp of the whole thing. Like, it, it allows people to sort of interface with this stuff on whatever level they're comfortable with. Right? Like, like you have just like sort of your basic run of the mill kind of law and order Republican types who are sort of on the bubble about the whole Trump thing, who don't think too much about it, and they're like, you know, they're just like, glad to see more. More cops. Like, the more cops, the better. And then you have like your hardcore MAGA people who are you know, just actually really sort of cheerleading Trump, you know, coming down with the iron fist of the state on anybody he wants to come down with. They see that as like an unalloyed good. But then you also have like the sort of just irony, poisoned online crowd who can approach all of this with like, a certain amount of ironic detachment and like, the fact that it's goofy sort of launders it for them and makes them.

[Tim Miller]

Fascism is camp. Mussolini was camp Gaddafi. Who is more camp than Gaddafi? No, nobody is the most camp public figure of our lifetime.

[JVL]

Him and Liberace. Real quick, before we get out of this one, thoughts on Donald Trump putting his name on the back of the new icemobiles? Alarming. Or just another like, oh, jvl, there you go. There you go catastrophizing again. It's perfectly normal for the President to put his name on the back of police cars.

[Tim Miller]

Look, I think it's bad, and it's more bad in the. Just. This is a cult. The federal government should not be a cult of one man that has all kinds of dangers associated with many of them we're already experiencing. I don't know whether it says anything about the Trump third term, which is, I think, where you're going, or the Trump permanent term. I don't know that his name on the car is meaningful in that one way or the other, but that does not make it not troubling.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Yeah, I don't think that it necessarily teaches us anything new so much as it reminds us of the stuff that we already know that we should be just screaming from the rooftops about. The dramatic expansion of ICE under the big beautiful bill and the way that it is being set up as a force that reports to, essentially reports to Donald Trump, like as a, as kind of a personal army to, I mean like the fact that we're even talking about them in the same conversation as the sort of federal law enforcement crackdown on just DC Crime in general, which is, you know, related to but not identical to immigration. And we're not like making distinctions in that conversation. That's, that's a remarkable thing. Right. I mean like it's already the, not only are the ranks swelling, but sort of the ambit of the organization has swollen so much. And I think that whether or not it suggests that there's a third term potentially coming or anything like that, it certainly doesn't say anything good about the term that we're already in.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And just if we're going to do disaster porn. Jvl, one other thing I'd just throw out there to you when you're kind of throwing all of these different internal police forces into one bucket. I had Kinzinger on the daily pod today and he was trying to not catastrophize, but in trying to dampen the catastrophizing he sort of spiraled me down to a place of concern. And that was like he's talking about the National Guard. There's something particularly ominous also about just red state National Guards being deployed. Right? Yeah. And I mean I don't want to go immediately towards Civil War movie or whatever, but it's like you combine. Okay, we're federalizing the police force. We're expand, we're creating essentially and are vastly expanding this internal immigration police force work at the direction of Donald Trump. And his names are on the trucks. And now like only certain states are sending their volunteer, whatever you want to call it, volunteer, quasi, you know, part time military, you know, official soldiers. Only the right states. What?

[JVL]

It's only the right states.

[Tim Miller]

Right. That's not good. I mean that, that potentially could take you to a bad place, I would think.

[JVL]

Also Cash Patel, you may have noticed, said either earlier this week or late last week that he wants to reorient the FBI. So the FBI is really all about violent crime. Make it into a national police force. That's great. FBI won't be doing counterintelligence or organized crime or money laundering, financial crimes, just violent crime. Sounds good.

[Tim Miller]

The amount of, can we just tell this? The amount of counterintelligence loss is like real right now. I just like how many resource I, you know, my friends who are in and non friends, like listeners who message me, you know, who are in various agencies. Like there are a lot of people that are being redirected from, you know, counterintel terror, obviously domestic terror, which we're not caring about at all anymore. If it's white people, you know, Chinese, like the, the amount of resources that are being redirected are significant. It's the kind of thing that's like, well, it's not a problem till it becomes a problem. And like this is where I get into dark JVL mode, which is like, even if it does become a problem, it's like it's going to be very hard for Democrats to message that as like a blame on Trump. And frankly, Trump would use it to just, to just coalesce more power.

[JVL]

Yeah, we wind up with a terrorist attack. You think that's going to hurt Trump?

[Tim Miller]

No, I don't, I don't want to really. Right.

[JVL]

And if you want to really spiral, ask yourself how any of this gets unwound. Because it doesn't. All right, we got to move on. This show is brought to you by Green Chef. Oh, how I love summer. Something about it just makes you feel your best. So what better time to create healthy meal habits that last? What better time to get Green Chef the number one meal kit for clean eating? Green Chef makes it easy to spend less time in the kitchen and more time enjoying summer. With their new heat and eat meals, it's easy to enjoy a delicious wholesome meal in just three minutes. Perfect for supporting your wellness journey. Green Chef recipes feature fresh organic seasonal produce and 100% responsibly sourced proteins to help you feel your best. Green Chef's real clean ingredients help you build lasting healthy habits without the hassle. Enjoy. Salads ready in just five minutes. Protein filled breakfast or nutrient rich smoothies to fuel your day. Green Chef is ready to nurture your nutritional needs. With 80 plus dietitian approved weekly meal options. Green Chef makes it easy to find meals that fit your lifestyle. Pick from Mediterranean, you settle down. Pick from Mediterranean. Gluten free, plant based and protein heavy. Even gut and brain health and calorie smart choices too. The recipes change every week and with week to week flexibility, you can adjust your plan to match your mood and your schedule. I love the flexibility of Green Chef. I'm trying to be a little more health conscious lately and being able to whip up a healthy smoothie in the morning without much hassle is a huge leg up. Especially the not much hassle part. Ease of use is what Is most important, make this summer your healthiest yet with Green chef. Head to greenchef.com 50next level and use code 50next level to get 50% off your first month. Then 20% off for two months with free shipping. That's code 50next [e-mail] 50next level.

[Tim Miller]

Welcome to the big show, Andrew. This is how we do it. We just transition straight in from authoritarian dystopia into salads, delivery salads. And you get to be here. Do you notice, jbl, that Sarah's been posting? Sarah's not here on tnl.

[JVL]

Oh, I've noticed.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[JVL]

I've noticed her posting.

[Tim Miller]

And I had to call her out.

[JVL]

Did you?

[Tim Miller]

I had to call her out. I did. I called her out in public on Twitter. I was like, I thought you were supposed to be on vacation with your loving wife and children. You know, shouldn't you be? I don't know where they are. What are they doing, camping or something?

[JVL]

They were at a fingerless glove factory.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, well, whatever they would do.

[JVL]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

For fun. Get back to it. Okay. You know, just keep. Take out that ax and do whatever.

[JVL]

It is during his vacation.

[Tim Miller]

This guy. Me neither.

[JVL]

Not once.

[Tim Miller]

Very good.

[JVL]

All right, we gotta turn to my old friend Tucker Carlson.

[Tim Miller]

We're gonna keep it on the dystopia beat. This was a personal, personal request from me.

[JVL]

Yeah. Who had a conversation with a gentleman whose name I don't know and frankly, I don't care about. But I want to just drop the audio in here. It does seem like we're moving toward dictatorship. And I'm not pointing at any one political leader or party even. I think the Democrats are much more eager for dictatorship than the Republicans generally. But I'm not even making that point. I'm just saying people's faith in. In democracy, whatever that is, has been badly shaken. And I just don't think you can govern in the way that our government currently governs forever. Do you think that's inevitable? Yeah, I do. I think Caesarism is a natural life cycle of any. Any civilization.

[Tim Miller]

You.

[JVL]

When you get to the oligarchic stage, Caesarism is it. That's so smart.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. This is.

[JVL]

You know, Oswald Spangler talked about the life cycles of civilizations. And after the age of money, power, after the age of oligarchy, the only thing that can cut through the Gordian knot of this vast, sprawling bureaucracy built on money is a strong man. That's what he predicts in any given age. Obviously, that's not the Anglo understanding, right?

[Tim Miller]

No, it's definitely not the way that you want to.

[JVL]

Let me speak for all Anglos when I say we're very opposed to that. Right. But, but if you aren't careful, if you don't understand how and why money powers come to dominate your society and created this rule of the oligarchs, people will cry out for that. They.

[Tim Miller]

And, well, the only thing more powerful.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Than money is violence.

[Tim Miller]

Right there.

[JVL]

A lot there, I think. I think I'd like to give Andrew the first whack at the pinata. Caesarism. Who can say which party is interested in Caesarism? It appears like it's the Democrats who are more interested than the Republicans, but the oligarchs, like the oligarchs who are currently running the country, are bad and are the ones who are pushing us to Caesarism. Redhead, let's go.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Yeah, it's really, it's really good to watch a clip like that. After talking about, you know, the, the whole federal government's shift away from regulating white collar crime and after thinking about, you know, Donald Trump's own sort of open corruption in office and, and all of the favors that are going to all of the businessmen who are supplicating themselves to him. I mean, like, it's a really interesting take because at this moment, the strongman and the oligarchs are getting along just fine. They're not in opposition at all. Right. But I'm always kind of obsessed with these sorts of guys. This is like an editor for the Blaze. He wrote a book about, you know, how democracies become tyrannies, basically. And it's also, this is not like some new idea. This is like, you know, Aristotle has, has like, thoughts about the life cycle of civilizations. And it basically goes like this. Um, but, but I mean, the role that this guy plays in, in sort of like the right wing constellation here is essentially as like one little log that. Among a bunch of logs that Trump is rolling down sort of to. To the ocean of despotism. Let's just make a horrible metaphor there. Because. Because there are people who openly want him to be a strong man. Right. Like, we, we've talked about this. There's a whole lot of people who are just like, yes, please, as soon as possible, as hard as you want, Donald. But there are other people for whom that's not necessarily their preferred outcome among all outcomes. Right, but, but it might be their preferred outcome among what they are led to believe is the set of likely outcomes. Right. And so the kind of. The idea here is, Andrew, there's another.

[JVL]

Group who justify their support for him on the idea that he's the only thing stopping despotism. You see what I'm saying? The weirdness is that like his, the Venn diagram of his supporters includes both people who believe he is an authoritarian and want it, and also people who believe that he's the only bulwark against authoritarianism from the left.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Yeah.

[JVL]

I just don't understand how this, how these people stand next to one another and don't see and think, huh, well if that guy's here, maybe he's right, I'm wrong.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Yeah. But I think what the fella in this clip is speaking to is like a whole third set of people who are like, man, I, I, I sure, I sure personally would prefer for us to remain a democracy also. So funny. Just a little aside, Tucker, to be like, man, you know, it's, it sure is a shame that democracy, whatever that is, is like, is falling apart. And so many people thought that is Tucker.

[Tim Miller]

It's also really such a complicated term to understand democracy, whatever that, whatever you call that, you know, it's one of these, that's one of these egghead words.

[Andrew Sullivan]

You know, Tucker's really good at forgetting how concepts work, like when it suits him momentarily. But anyway, like the idea is like, maybe there are some people who would rather live under democracy, but if we're going to have despotism either way, you know, like, oh gosh, if that's really going to happen, then I guess, you know, I hate to say it, but rather our despot than they're despot. And that's the whole idea. Right. I mean that's, that's the actual function of this kind of content in the right wing ecosystem today.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. I want to hear JBL's thoughts on what trajectory he thinks we're on. But I just, just a couple of side points about this and why I encountered this on TikTok. I don't actually consume the entire Tucker Carlson podcast, but that the Chinese felt like it was important for me to see, which feels like a meta commentary of some kind. Sure. So I watched it and I was like, huh, I want to talk about this. I'm talking for a couple reasons. One of the reasons, in addition, what Andrew brought up is like, I think there's like another category of people who are just kind of blissfully moving through life and existing that do not realize like the momentum that exists out there in the world towards dictatorship. I just, I don't know, I kind of like imagine like my father was in town last Weekend who was, you know, pretty basic normal Republican up until two minutes ago. And I was like showing him this and be like, this is one of the leading contenders to replace Trump just like casually saying like we're inevitably heading towards dictatorship, you know, and I, so I do think maybe that might shake some people. But the thing that I wanted to pair this with which, which is what alarms me the most about it, to kind of expand on Andrew's comment about the different types of people that are being drawn to this is it Tucker is like essentially saying that we're on an inexorable path towards, towards dictatorship and we probably want it to be a friendly dictator. Like is essentially the point here and like that there going to be violence will be involved in this and that's inevitable and he doesn't see a real way out. Ben Shapiro was on the all in podcast and I was listening to that conversation before Jason came on as prep. And he just, he makes like a, like Winnie the Pooh and the tuxedo version of this same point. Essentially like he makes kind of a high class version of the same point where he just like casually says to these VC guys, like, you know, I just, the way I kind of see it, I think we're just moving, you know, inexorably towards this thing where it's like we have conservative authoritarianism and then we trade back and forth to liberal authoritarianism and I'd rather have conservative authoritarianism. It's not what I want. You know, it's not like it's not my preferred outcome. But you know, what Donald Trump's doing is better than what I would see from the other side. And to me, like, I don't know, I just think that we've gone, we've gone a long way from like you never. Trumpers have tds and we're taking him, you know, seriously, but not literally. Like it's not. The threat is not that big to now it's gone from like, this is, you guys are alarmist and this is crazy to it is inevitable and I'm kind of here for it.

[JVL]

Yeah, well, this is, I mean this is Rod Dreher's law of merited impossibility.

[Tim Miller]

Right?

[JVL]

It's, it's the line of argument that begins how can you say that that's insane to. Well, of course that thing has to happen, right? No matter what the thing is. And I, you know, I mean the, the, there's so much tied up in this which is, which is wrong. Right? I mean, Tucker says the only thing more Powerful than money is violence. True, but violence and money don't often find themselves on opposite sides, do they? You see what I'm saying?

[Tim Miller]

Right? I mean, this is terrorism with us sometimes, but yeah, sure, right.

[JVL]

I mean, and certainly in the Western sense, that's not the way it often shakes out. The violence and the money wind up together. And that is certainly like where we are. It is. It is not the case that we have some oligarchic elite and they are engaged in a great struggle against the ethno nationalists. Like those people are on the same side. They're all together.

[Tim Miller]

Because he doesn't consider the elites, the oligarchs, really the money. The richest people in the world, he considers like the president of Columbia is in the oligarchic elite.

[JVL]

He considers the third grade public school teachers.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Andrew Sullivan]

And Taylor Swift opinion columnists for the Washington Post.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Musicians, pundits, academics, teachers, anybody with a college degree. The oligarchs that are being fought against. Yeah.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Your.

[JVL]

Your pediatrician. Right. Your local pediatrician, the nurse at the hospital. Those people are, are all somehow the oligarchs, not the actual people who own, you know, 42% of the entire economy. It's a, it's the damnedest thing, because I don't think, and maybe I'm wrong, but in my history of conservatism, I don't think you can find another moment in American history where anybody in conservative world would say, I mean, honestly, like, the democracy stuff is all right. They would always. You could say that you want the authoritarian ends, but it was always cloaked in the language of democracy and liberty and freedom. And this is at least federalism. Right. Or like that. But there was a high. It would be dressed up.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[JVL]

And we've now at the point where mainstream conservatism, not all of it, but maybe this isn't even mainstream, but like the fringes of conservatism now are fully willing to just drop all that stuff and just talk openly about Caesarism. That's new, isn't it?

[Tim Miller]

It's definitely new. And I like, to me it's like not like fringes is kind of wrong. Right. And I guess it's the fringes in the sense. It's like John Thune and Mike Johnson aren't saying this. Right, right.

[JVL]

Fair.

[Tim Miller]

You know, but I don't, It's. I also don't think it's just like, I mean, the Blaze guy is some crazy guy in the basement. But like, you know, it has purchase now among like, very influential figures. And you Cannot tell me that Tucker and Steve Bannon are like, random guys in the basement. Like, they obviously have more influence over the direction of the party than, like, you know, whatever nominal person you would want to put up from the more classical liberal, like the current President of.

[JVL]

The United States likes to openly flirt with, not leaving power.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[JVL]

I mean, and J.D.

[Tim Miller]

Vance just literally gave a speech, what, a month ago about post liberalism and the post liberal, you know, and the post liberal order.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Maybe the way to think about it is like, who. Who in the whole kind of, like, normal conservative firmament, could you imagine, like, being across the table from Ben Shapiro when he's making that comment? Who would, like, really push back on it? Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's hard to imagine, like, somebody who at the very least wouldn't be like, oh, yeah, that's kind of an interesting way of putting it. It's certainly not something that, like, it's not an idea that, like, whatever passes for respectable conservatism these days would spit out of its mouth like it would have five years ago before January 6th. Really?

[Tim Miller]

That's a great point. Or who could you imagine going head to head with J.D. vance, like, making the counterpoint, and you feel like they would come out with plurality support among the conservative listeners. Right. Like, it is hard to think of, like, that someone.

[JVL]

Oh, all right, Tim, you want to talk to us about our next sponsor?

[Tim Miller]

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[JVL]

Speaking of liberal autocracies, Gavin Newsom, Strange New Respect, has decided to get in touch with his inner Patrick Bateman. I did a little YouTube thing with Hannah Yost today about this because she wrote about this for you, Andrew, in Morning Shots. And I don't know what we're calling this. I don't know if it's just shit posting or if it's crossed over into something dark woke or whatnot. But, but we got Gavin Newsom on Twitter tweeting in, like, performance mode as if he's Donald Trump with the all caps. Thank you for your attention to this matter and I'm kind of here for it. Should I feel bad about this, Andrew?

[Andrew Sullivan]

Can you say why? I, I, I, Hannah was a little ambivalent. She, she went back and forth in the piece today. It's a great piece in Morning Shots which people should read. I am happy to share my thoughts on the Dark Brandon version of, of Gavin Newsom. But, but, but I would like to hear kind of the positive case for it first. Expressed. Expressed. Well, so why is that jbl? Like what are, what is, what's good about, about this whole thing?

[JVL]

All right, so first of all, it is triggering the cons. The conservatives are very unhappy about this. They do not like it. It's undignified. He sounds like a D bag. And how dare he. And, and I think that's nice. I like that it exposes the weird double standard whereby we believe that Donald Trump is a force of nature, like gravity or a thunderstorm, which just is. But everybody else has agency and must be held to, like, standards of conduct.

[Tim Miller]

It's weird.

[JVL]

I don't understand why things are like that. I don't mind that. I like the idea that Gavin is trying a bunch of different stuff. So, I mean, Gavin has tried all of the things. He tried being the guy who was ready to stand in for Joe Biden should he falter. He tried being Biden's best surrogate by. You remember this when he went on and debated Ron DeSantis in like a pretend presidential debate from the two guys who weren't their party's nominees after Sean.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Hannity, of all things.

[JVL]

Yeah, yeah. On Sean Hannity. After the, the, after the. Kamala Harris lost, he decided to like try the Democratic autopsy stuff where he was like, well, I'm going to start talking to Charlie Kirk and Steve Bannon and get in there and see, see if we can learn. I'll throw some trans.

[Tim Miller]

My thoughts on trans women in sports and all that.

[JVL]

And, and yeah, none of these things work. And he's like, yeah, I'm just gonna keep trying until I find something that does work. I, I admire that a little bit. And I think the times call for something like that approach like this is, you know, nobody, if, if we all knew what the answer was, we would have done it already. And none of us knows what the answer is. And so I'm, I'm in favor of people vigorously mashing buttons on the control panel in the hopes that something will stop the reactor from melting down. So, and I would say just from a purely, purely Machiavellian, If I were Gavin Newsom's strategist, I like this from his perspective. So he's running for President, obviously come 2027, he won't have a day job anymore. He will be a full time presidential candidate. His biggest liability is the idea of him as a California liberal. If instead he turns his biggest liability into. God, that guy is so mean and nasty. Am so hardcore. That's a pretty good thing, right? I mean that as weaknesses go, you can have worse weaknesses than being a little bit too tough or being too mean in the current political age.

[Tim Miller]

I have a lot of extended thoughts, Andrew, but I want to hear yours first. But I want to make what I thought was the most compelling case for this. Please. I think you'll enjoy from at Nikki Kaga on Twitter. I follow Nikolaj. Good poster. Wright says. Is he progressive? Question mark? No. Does he have a good record also? No. Would he beat Vance in 2028? Probably not. Is he a good person? No. But does he want to Roman off the Trump family? Does he say Mississippi like it's a slur, all caps? Yes. The picture of Gavin looking handsome. And I think it comes down to that. Yeah.

[Andrew Sullivan]

I have no, I think that's basically accurate. And I think that. I think that most of the reasons that I'm not necessarily so taken by all this are basically encapsulated by that, too, which is that I think, yes, it's good for Democrats to be trying a bunch of different things. Unfortunately, in this case, the thing that Gavin Newsom is trying a bunch of things to do is like, try to figure out exactly the way to get Gavin Newsom the 2028 Democratic presidential nomination, which I just think would be a disaster in a lot. In a lot of ways, not just because, I mean, I actually disagree that his biggest liability is that he kind of codes California liberal. I think that he can deal with that. He can kind of play with in all of these ways. I think in that presidential contest, he would also have a real liability for having done a relatively bad job governing the state. And I think that, like, we. We. We are so sweet.

[JVL]

Summer child.

[Andrew Sullivan]

No, no, no, seriously, I have real thoughts about this. We are so vibes focused, and the vibes have mattered so much in recent times that I think we have. There is a. There. There's a possibility of over indexing on vibes. You can overdose on vibes. I think that it is. It is not a small part of, like, how Donald Trump has gotten over the hump of the last few years that in the background you have this kind of, like, secondary conversation about, like, our Democratic policies better or are Republican policies better? I know it's the kind of Pollyanna thing, like talk about policy mattering, but, like, one of the weird little subplots of the past few years has been like, the. The DeSantis versus Newsome thing, right? And DeSantis has really been like, eating his lunch on a lot of, like, actual policy stuff, just in terms of, like, bread and butter, kitchen table. Which states are doing better economically, which states are losing people to out migration, which people are. Which states are getting people to.

[Tim Miller]

I think it's important to caveat that. Teetering. That's teetering. I think he was. Was eating his lunch, I think certainly at Florida's. Florida's 2025 status is pretty. Just pretty sure.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Sure. Yeah. But that's about Florida, right? That's not. That's not about, like, Has Gavin done a good job in California? It's like I'm pre to dislike it for that reason. The other thing is that I just, as a, as a Trump impression, I find it not very compelling and like, you know, whatever, there are better ones out there. And I think that, like, whatever the next big thing is, even if it is like, vibes that end up mattering, I think it's going to have to be something new and something sui generis, not just sort of like this weird, like, imitation of the Trumpian form. Now all that is on one side of the ledger. That said, the one thing that I do really appreciate about all of this is more the fact of it than, like, how it's being carried out. I think the thing that he is modeling that is really helpful for Democrats and why I totally understand that a lot of Democrats are rallying behind it, not other electeds, but just sort of rank and filers who see it feel a certain catharsis and a certain sense of relief is because it, it is fearless in a way. Right? It's poking the big bad guy in a way that, that is full of contempt. That is, that is so the opposite of what all of the other institutions are doing where, like, where every. Everything else out there, every other institution out there at all levels is basically treating the things that make Donald Trump so small and weak and just, just horrible of a person. All of that stuff is the stuff that everybody has to suddenly be okay with just as the price of like, existing in America now and doing business at a high level. And like, yeah, like, like, maybe his policies are going to be bad, but maybe his policies won't be so bad if we just, you know, butter him up like crazy and we just worship the ground he walks on and all of that stuff. And like, to, to live in that environment is so just gross. And to just be in it, where everybody is doing this all the time is so just sort of oppressive from over a period of months. And we're not, we're like a sixth of the way in. And just to see somebody at a high level, even though he, he, you know, Trump has already come down hard on his state in la in, in a lot of ways that, that he is not sort of brushed back by that and instead is willing to just like, throw punches and sort of model this fearlessness, even though I don't think it really lands and I don't think it's really funny or whatever. Like, I totally see why people are willing to kind of like, put on.

[JVL]

The Jeep So Andrew, what you're saying is. But he fights.

[Tim Miller]

But he fights. So here, this goes to my point. I want to expand on this.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Yeah, no, there's an element of buddy fights. There's an element of buddy fights. Yeah. All right. All right.

[Tim Miller]

And he's. He's fucking with. And it's working. I actually, I would grade it a little better than Andrew on the Trump admitation. It's pretty funny. It's pretty good. It's not cringe. It's not cove. You know, I mean, like, we've seen some bad.

[Andrew Sullivan]

He doesn't get the cadence right.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. But we've seen some really bad ones.

[Andrew Sullivan]

We've seen fun, but it's not Trump. Can we say that? Like it's funny, but he's like, he's doing some other thing. It's not. It's not really the truth.

[Tim Miller]

All good spoofs are a little bit off, a little different, you know, Anyway, it's pretty good. It's not cringe in the sense of like, resistance cringe might be. You might find it cringe in another sense, but, like, it's not. We've seen some really bad Trump spoofs out there in the marketplace, and this has been pretty. This one's pretty good. So I give him credit for that. The fighting part. I give him credit for the actual substance of the fighting about what they're doing in California is absolutely right and good on him for doing it. And you could totally imagine a Merrick Garland style governor of California who would not have done that.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Can you say real quick, her name is. There was a moment where.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, Gretchen Whitmer style. Yeah.

[Andrew Sullivan]

And there was a moment when it seemed like maybe Gavin was going to take that road. Right. Like, right, right at the beginning of all the, the El Salvador stuff and everything like that. He was asked one question about that at a press conference and he kind of was like his initial instinct when he was asked that question was to be like, you know, look, like all these mass deportation things, like, this is kind of a distraction.

[Tim Miller]

Distraction. He was the distraction guy. He was doing distraction talking points. So he's. So I need to approve of behavior that is modeling what I'm asking for.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Yes.

[Tim Miller]

I'm asking for Democrats to stop doing that shit.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Yes, yes. He got off that very quickly and has been much better about that since.

[Tim Miller]

So good for him on that. That part I like, the part that worries me actually, is a little different than Andrew's in that it's. That it's too good. I'm worrying that it's too good and that it's working too well, because I think that Gavin is weak, Potentially, as a 2028 person, for a variety of reasons, which people have already heard a million times. So I agree that the California not being an appealing model for the country would be my shorthand for why. But there are other reasons, and I think it's working. I think it's working well. And I just saw somebody posted in my feed, replied to me and said that their mother changed their Facebook profile to the meme of Gavin with the bandage on his ear. And that worries me that it becomes self fulfilling in the same way that Tucker's dictatorship stuff becomes self fulfilling. Like Gavin positioning himself as the one man who's fighting Trump becomes self fulfilling. And the Democrats get really excited about it. The train gets out the station and. And I worry about that. I worry that it's. I worry both, because I think that he might be a weak 2028 candidate, though I'm open to being wrong about that. I worry about, like, what it says about us as human humans, what it says about us as people, that people get very excited about that, you know, because we all have the shadow side inside of us who does.

[JVL]

Like, some of us, that's all we have, right?

[Tim Miller]

Like, seeing people's face rubbed in shit. I would like to aspire to better than that. I would like for something. I want people to fight, don't get me wrong, but I'd like to there. I would not like the fighting to be the end in itself. I'd like there to be fighting. An end of something better, you know, something more aspirational would be an ideal thing for me. And so, you know, I don't know. We're all weak. I think about, like, the funny parallel. I'm kind of Trump in this parallel by accident, but whatever the. The. The Republicans crying, like Lisa Marie Booth and Dana Perino and all these people crying like Gavin is acting like such a douchebag and like, Kevin. Kevin's behavior is so inappropriate, it's so unbecoming. And it's like they can't even see their own. They can't even see themselves right in it. And like. And we can point and laugh at their weakness, but that's also kind of like a human weakness. Hannah got into this a little bit in the morning in the newsletter this morning. Like, I think about the. The inverse of that always makes me laugh. Like, anytime I make fun of a Democrat, like when I was going after Hunter, for example, recently, you know, people were like were commenting or some of you listeners were commenting and saying, Tim, you're being so nasty to Hunter. You're usually so considerate and thoughtful. And I'm like, am I Actually, I don't think so. I think you like me because I'm being. I'm pretty good to being nasty to the fucking bad people at times. Right. And so it's hard for the human brain to process that. Right. What they like when. About somebody, when they're treating their enemies poorly, they. They don't like when they're treating people that they care about poorly. So like all of that, like that's the part that gives me worries that like that it's too good that Gavin will. That will be like a Frankenstein monster that is. That was unable to fulfill the Blaze contributors. Yeah.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Prophecy.

[Tim Miller]

That part worries me a little. Not a lot. I'm not like panicked about anything. It's just, it's just something that's in my mind, that's all.

[JVL]

Let me, let me pull us back a tiny bit here and just away from the what do we personally feel on the inside but just into objective analysis.

[Tim Miller]

Sure.

[JVL]

I have long believed that there is something in politics where voters reward candidates who are really hungry in that they don't like the too cool for school. Oh, like Adelaide Stevenson, I was drafted to run. And they really like the people who are in the most grotesque way would run over their own grandmothers to be elected president. I wonder if a. Is that true, do you think? Just in the ways you guys have looked at politics over the years, at least John McCain never looked like he would kill his own.

[Tim Miller]

Definitely true with men. I think Hillary looked like she would have drove it over her old grandmother to run and that was seen as a negative for her.

[JVL]

I think maybe, maybe, maybe it was.

[Tim Miller]

Something unique about Hillary. Maybe it was misogyny, but.

[JVL]

Or it could just been like she was part of the furniture for so long and had been right, you know, so ingrained in America anyway. But I wonder if A, if that is true and B, if it is true, if it doesn't help newsome in a way that the people who are much more circumspect like the west moors of the world him that it might, might hurt them. I don't know. I just very quickly. Is there anything to this or.

[Tim Miller]

No. I think yes.

[Andrew Sullivan]

I think yes. Certainly in the current moment, I think the worse people perceive things to be, the more they want somebody who seems like they're really jonesing to get in there and fix it. Right. But I Agree with Tim that I think in 2016 it was kind of the opposite. Hillary was the one who was seen as kind of grasping and, and just, just wanted to get in there no matter what. And in fact, very early in Trump's political career, it's kind of weird to think about now because it's so different now. But like, it played to his benefit this, this notion that he doesn't really have to do this, right? He has a nice life, he has all this money. He's not going to use the system to enrich himself because he's got all this money already. And like, that was kind of like an early boost for him. But, but I do think that, like, we're in a completely different environment now where, where just everybody, even the winners are like, are like, think the world is going to hell in a handbasket and they are rewarding people who, who seem like they are eager to get in there.

[Tim Miller]

I do think there'd be a more earnest. I, I think that there is room and there remains room. We have a lot of time. We don't need to do 2028 hot stove. But like, my advice to anybody that was listening who is a Democrat that wants to do you go to higher office is like, people want somebody that's really mad right now, though. And then the buddy. There is a, there is a way to do buddy fights that isn't so cynical. You know, like, there's a way to do fights because you're really pissed.

[JVL]

Oh, we're going to talk about in a minute.

[Tim Miller]

Great. Let's do it.

[JVL]

But first, I have some breaking news. Cats don't care about breaking news. They care about dinner. If it's not our next partner, Smalls, prepare for some aggressive protests on your couch. We brought our cat, K Pop, not his real name, to the beach for the last few weeks. We still have to feed him every day.

[Tim Miller]

Why are you anonymizing your cat's name?

[JVL]

Because I feel like it's a bit that people appreciate.

[Tim Miller]

Okay.

[JVL]

They like.

[Tim Miller]

It's not a public safety. It's not a safety thing.

[JVL]

No, I'm not, I'm not worried that somebody's gonna come for K Pop, but I think people appreciate the, the characters that my family members play.

[Tim Miller]

All right.

[JVL]

It turns out that just like children, you have to feed your cats every day. That's why this podcast is sponsored by Smalls. Smalls cat food is protein packed recipes made with preservative free ingredients you find in your fridge and it's delivered right to your door. That's also why cats.com named Smalls their best overall cat food. To get 60% off your first order plus free shipping, head to smalls.com thenextlevel for a limited time only. Here's a review from a real Smalls customer, Jennifer M. Said. After every feeding he gets this burst of energy and starts running around the house. And his fur is softer and more vibrant with higher contrast. Honestly, I wouldn't recommend anything else. Smalls was started back in 2017 by a couple of guys home cooking cat food in small batches for their friends. A few short years later, they've served millions of meals to cats across the US I love Smalls because their food lets us treat K Pop about as well as we would the rest of the family. Because your pets are real family members. That's also why we've been walking K Pop around the beach. That's not true.

[Tim Miller]

Actually.

[JVL]

We have taken him out in the backpack. I did provide a picture for it. Have not taken him to the beach. We're not sure he'd like that. The team at Smalls is so confident that your cat will love their product that you can try it risk free. That means they will refund you if your cat won't eat their food. So what are you waiting for? Give your cat the food they deserve for a limited time only because you are a next level listener. You can get 60% off your first smalls order plus free shipping when you head to smalls.com thenextlevel.com that's 60% off when you head to smalls.Com the next level plus free shipping. Again, that's smalls.com thenextlevel all right, we're going to get to the other like what mad looks like in a minute because it's not the presidential level, Tim. It's the senatorial level in Maine. First, though, Andrew had wanted to talk about Oklahoma. Oklahoma, where the Superintendent of Public Instruction run, one Ryan Walters, announced that teachers from California and New York who are applying to teach in Oklahoma will have to pass a test developed by Prageru because the state of California and New York's standards are, quote, antithetical to Oklahoma's. I have so many questions, Andrew, and you went deep on this.

[Tim Miller]

Wasn't this a guy that had porn that showed up on the screen when he was at a meeting or something? Didn't some porn pop up?

[Andrew Sullivan]

You're jumping right to the end.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[Andrew Sullivan]

This guy. The deep well of lore about Ryan Walters. So it wasn't porn Technically it was a movie that featured some nudity, some female nudity. He claims that it was up there on autoplay from.

[JVL]

It wasn't even his, he was holding it for a friend. But listen, my question is why California, New York and not like Vermont and Austin, Massachusetts? Right. Or people from Austin? Like, it just strikes me like this is, it's weirdly limiting and of course I understand the problem is that I'm treating this like it's serious and it's not. But I don't know. I. Talk to me, Andrew.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Yeah. Okay, so you, you, you are correct in your self diagnosis of, of the issue here. I mean this is, this is a guy I've been following for a while off and on because he's a really fascinating figure, one of the more interesting MAGA guys anywhere in the country because he has this, this very kind of small job. He's like the state superintendent of Oklahoma, not their Secretary of Education, the superintendent of their schools. But he ran for it on this like crazy broad kind of MAGA buzzword platform and has proceeded since getting in there to govern in, in ways that are 100% aimed at sort of like creating these viral mini news cycles rather than, you know, do anything for the, for the, the kids in the schools in Oklahoma. A couple of the, the most prominent or maybe, maybe the most prominent a year or so ago was that he, he had created this like division of religious liberty in education and he sent around, they emailed around to every school in the state a two minute video that he had made announcing this, this new initiative sitting at his desk with, with a mug with, with you know, if, if you want peace, prepare for war written on it in Latin with like drip, like swords dripping with blood. And he, he talks in this video about how, you know, woke teachers unions have been, have been ruining education in America. And he, he sits down and he, he bows his head and he says a prayer for Donald Trump and America's other leaders. And, and the kicker is that he orders every school to play this video in, in front of every classroom at their school like as a, as a way of doing this initiative. He's like, you guys have to please, please play this for all the children now. And, and this provokes some blowback from you know, other Republicans. And Oklahoma is like an insanely Republican state, right? So like the even other Republicans, even other like strongly MAGA Republicans like the governor and the Attorney General of the state are so sick of this guy's shit by now like they have, they have passed legislation, they, they you know, they put it in last year's budget a couple of provisions like dramatically curtailing his already very slight powers. And you know that just nobody, nobody likes this, this guy where he is, but he continues to have this sort of genius for, for, for having no shame and finding these little mini news cycles that are going to go viral and, and potentially will serve as a launching pad to at least sort of MAGA virality, if not, if not higher office and actual power, sort of like as an influencer after this. But, but he, I mean the only person, I don't know if you guys remember Valentina Gomez, who ran for, of course ran for Secretary of State in Missouri last year and now she's running for Congress.

[Tim Miller]

Don't be weak and gay.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Yeah, exactly. I mean she, she and he are kind of like the, the two, like the crown prince and crown princess of just like people who are actually in public office or running for public office at a low statewide level. But, but due to like a total absence of shame and, and just relentless, relentless self promotion have managed to make themselves kind of.

[Tim Miller]

So do you think we should not talk about this for that reason? That's a legitimate question. I don't, I don't know the answer to this is this. And do we have agency here? Should we not talk about Ryan Walters or should we talk about him and make fun of him?

[Andrew Sullivan]

You know, we spend so much time restraining our baser, our basic impulses as people. Like let's go, let's have a little fun with everyone.

[Tim Miller]

I mean strategically, like culturally, I mean, I guess, I don't know. There's something maybe to be said for the fact that like defining maga, but with their most extreme religious weirdos, particularly ones who have influence over children, it's probably might be useful on the margins. Maybe this doesn't matter at all and it's kind of just sort of cheap ephemera and it's like we can, our choices are meaningless.

[JVL]

I'm happy to move on to grand.

[Tim Miller]

Platform attention and power by talking about them. I really don't have a great good answer to this question.

[Andrew Sullivan]

I think it is important to note the kinds of phenomena or the kinds of systems that give rise to people like this. Like the fact that even though in the level of an actual state, even a very Republican state, a guy like this can fail, you know, he can, he can fail on the terms that he has set out. Right? He can, he can make enemies of other very Republican people. He can make enemies of parents and enemies of school superintendents and like, and just not succeed. You don't, you do not see that kind of thing happening at the level of sort of like, virality and algorithmic, like, influencer culture, which is where this guy is succeeding, right? I mean, like, even though he's a total failure at the level of his state, he is still getting the notoriety and not just from us. I mean, it's not like we're nut picking here. Like, these things have an audience online among other Republicans, not Republicans with kids in Oklahoma schools, but just sort of Republicans who feed at the. Feed at the trough.

[JVL]

Andrew, why do we think that he is failing at the level of politics? Because we'll see at his next election, right? His next election, he will run for something else and he will either win or lose, and that will determine whether or not he failed at this.

[Andrew Sullivan]

That's true. There has been a lot of blow, like a lot of internal blowbacks such that other Republicans have felt very comfortable going after him. The governor has appointed, you know, members of the state Board of Education who basically are there to exist as a break on the stuff he wants to do. You know, and these are some of the same people who, after the. Should we talk about the porn thing real quick or do we not care about that? It's a small thing. They were at the Board of Education, was in executive session. He's like doing his like, zoom notes for the meeting, like from his laptop or whatever. This is, as it's been reported, obviously we don't, we haven't reported on this, but, but. And you know, these people notice this video with a lot of nudity. You know, it's like also on the screen as they're trying to like, go through this disciplinary hearing for some student and, and then they leak it to the press. So. And in addition to that, you know, there have been actual policy, like, like I was mentioning, actual policy restraints put on him. So he, he has been dramatically weakened in this already weak role. So, like, I would not call it like a successful tenure in that, in that respect, but you're right. I mean, like, it's possible he could have like this phoenix, like, resurrection from the ashes of.

[Tim Miller]

Well, he could, he could be on. He could be unpopular with the political elites in Oklahoma and be happy, popular with the voters and win a Senate primary or something.

[JVL]

That is what it sounds to me like you were describing. And this is like Ken Paxton, like, well, did Ken Paxton succeed or fail? Well, I don't know. Like, the guy keeps winning elections. So I think he's went, he's Succeeding.

[Tim Miller]

Brian Walters is failing his students. I just did a quick Google. We were talking a new Survey ranks Oklahoma 50th among school systems out of how many states? Right ahead of New Mexico though there was 51 options actually because Washington D.C. was included. Popped over here to U.S. news and World Report to see how they ranked them. 48th. Pretty good from U.S. news and World Report. They beat Alaska and New Mexico in that ranking.

[JVL]

So, so, I mean, I guess my point is this all assumes, Andrew, that this guy ran for this office because he wanted to like do policy things for students. And I, I just don't see any evidence of that. Like he ran for this to become a conservative influencer to then run for other things. And the jury seems to be out.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Yes, it's, it is totally possible that he could. My, my, my sort of lay, lay understanding is that he is not acquired a great well of like actual Oklahoma Republican grassroots support. But that could be wrong. I mean, I actually don't know that with any kind of great degree of specificity. And even if it's correct, it could change for all the reasons you're talking about.

[Tim Miller]

You know what I need after hearing about Ryan Walters? A gummy. The next level is sponsored by Soul. Thankfully, Soul's out of Office Gummies help us relax, quiet our thoughts and fall asleep naturally. That's just the right balance of CBD and THC to ease you into a restful night's sleep. Soul is a wellness brand that believes feeling good should be fun and easy. SOL specializes in delicious hemp derived THC and CBD products designed to boost your mood and help you unwind. Their best selling out of Office Gummies were designed to provide a mild relaxing buzz, boost your mood and enhance creativity and relaxation. With five different strengths, you can tailor the dose to fit your vibe. From a gentle 1.5 milligram microdose to their newest 15 milligram gummy for a more elevated experience. The person that drafted the script, right. Some of my colleagues like to call this the Tim Miller Special. I'm sorry to disappoint you.

[JVL]

Is that what I should start out with, Tim?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, 15 milligrams is too much for me. Maybe the Tyler Special, but I won't get him into trouble. SOL also has a variety of products specifically designed to help you get a better night's rest, including their Sleepy Gummies, a fan favorite for deep restorative sleep. With wellness at the forefront, you can feel good about what you're putting in your body. All Sole's products are made from organically farmed USA grown hemp. So if you're ready to bring on the good vibes, treat yourself to sole today. Right now, Sol is offering our audience 30% off your entire order. Go to getsol.com and use the code. The next level, that's getsoul.com promo code. Thenextlevel for 30% off. What else do you have to talk about? JBL, I'm getting hungry.

[JVL]

What we got is in Maine we have intermittent fasting. Possible sighting of John Fetterman, mark two gentleman named Graham Platner. He has got a beard, he's tatted up. He's a 10 year veteran of the marines. He's an oysterman, he curses. He says he doesn't have all the answers to everything. And he is running as kind of like a 2018 era Lt. Governor John Federman, Democrat to beat Susan Collins. He dropped his announcement video. And I am just going to curious as I'll get out what you boys think about it because this is certainly it's like half AOC but half manosphere. You know, he's like why the hell can't we have universal healthcare for everyone, huh? What the is up with that? And coming from AOC that codes one way and coming from a guy who works on oyster boats, it codes differently. Timmy, what did you think?

[Tim Miller]

What does it maybe. Yeah. Look, I just want to start by saying I have been a top advocate for trying different things and for trying different things. And Democrats need outsiders and Democrats should have outsiders that are more whatever butch AOC coded and they should have outsiders that are more centrist coded and they should try a bunch of stuff and see what works. And so I'm interested to see how this guy works. I liked. I guess we'll do what I liked first. I liked the cut of his jib, you know, I like his look. I liked the line about how he said he doesn't have all the answers. I like a lot of times people are afraid to say that. I liked that. You know, I like his backstory. I was pretty concerned about and I remain a little bit concerned about the main Democratic bench. It's kind of a weird roster of candidates they have going. Like Jared golden would have been the obvious person to run for this. I think he would have beaten Susan Collins easily. I don't really understand why he's not doing it. I know Jared golden is. It's funny. Jared golden and this guy, if you ever need the word code. What's his name? Graham. Jared and Graham code. Like basically the same if you just, like, look at a picture of them. But Jared is more like blue doggy center. Like Joe Mansion Y a little bit like a light version. Not like fully Joe Manchin, but has like, some Joe Manchin flavor to him. And, like, this guy is like, lefty version of that, you know? And so that is a test of, like, does policy even matter? Right. Like, I would kind of. I wish we could do a political science experiment with where both Jared golden and this guy ran against Susan Collins to see if there was any difference in the result and what it would be. We can't do that. Like, my own. I just will say my like.

[JVL]

And.

[Tim Miller]

And I want to hear him talk like, this is my only red. This isn't red flag. Like, my yellow flags were for people who do not pay that close of attention to house race political ads. It might not feel this way, but it was actually a very cookie cutter ad. Like, the music is the same as in all the other Democratic music, which I'm just begging Democratic ad makers listening to find new music.

[JVL]

It's like D Generation X. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

I would contribute to a fund that will allow you to pay for. To get other music. I have a buddy that does soundtracks down here. He could help you. The same guitar riff. If I hear it again all the way till next November, I'm gonna kill myself. So that's not Graham's fault, but, like, the words kind of sounded like if it was a generic consultant that works for Bernie and wanted to create this ad, like, the words would be that. Like, I know. Like, I watch the. I follow these people on social media. I know what they think, I know what they want. And this guy is kind of like, filling this role for them. And, you know, he, like, even says the word oligarchy. Like, that was my yellow flag in this was like, when he said the word oligarchy. I'm not, like, against people saying the word oligarchy, but I don't know, it's just the vibe of, like, fuck it. I don't know all the answers. But you know what? I. Who I know the problem is the oligarchy. I was like, I don't know. I was like, I don't know if that was actually the word that people would use if they weren't on the Fight oligarchy tour. So I just. I want to see him speak off the cuff. It's a. It's harder than it looks being a candidate kind of. You know, I think that they've done a good job branding him out of the gate. I'm interested. Me and him probably aren't going to, you know, be eye to eye on every vote that he takes if he ends up getting in there. But I would, I'm happy for anybody that not besides Susan Collins. He certainly wouldn't vote to confirm the Trump cabinet.

[JVL]

So Andrew, he, he is running as, I mean, if you care about policies. The policies he's tipping his hand on are the things which I think we don't know how potent they could be because it's a combination of fight the oligarchs, help unions, raise the minimum wage, do, do, do universal health care and also no more forever wars. And I'm not going to support Chuck Schumer for leader and stuff like, and so these, again, like this is a mishmash. Half of these things would be very popular on Joe Rogan.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Yeah. The fact that we're in such a policy no man's land just in terms of what either party stands for about anything is in theory helpful on the bubble for these sorts of marginal races where you're fighting an uphill battle against an incumbent. You can surface these interesting guys who have these different takes that cut different ways and it'd be good for both parties and certainly for the Democrats to get more people in here who are like, you know, have, have idiosyncratic views on, on different things, policy alignments that, that go different directions. I feel like Democrats have a little bit of like a chicken and egg problem here because like what they, what they keep wanting to do is, is roll out these sort of interesting guys. And obviously, you know, a lot of it's bottom up. It's not just sort of the Democrats making these, these choices. But you, you, you keep seeing these guys pop up in these, like, really kind of hard to win races in purple states against a popular incumbent or in red states like, like, you know, there's some gu. Who have launched, you know, campaigns for governor and for Senate this year.

[Tim Miller]

I think of the iron stash who ran against Paul Ryan.

[JVL]

The iron stash.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like the problem is like the Democrats want to change their national brand to be like more appealing to men. But like until that has already happened, until you have some of these guys like in power as like, you know, prominent figureheads of the Democratic Party and that, and that has already started to change. The, the, the whole Democratic brand is still kind of a millstone around these guys necks. Right. Because like, because the, the, the, the thing that gets thrown back at them is like, yeah, you, you sort of Code like, you're one of us, but aren't you just going to go to D.C. and like most Democrats just vote for the stuff your Democratic leadership puts forward. Like, are you really so different? I mean, so and so it's hard to know like how to solve this. I guess one thing that I would sort of like to see is guys like this showing up more in like blue state Democratic primaries, not always just being like the, Is this the purple state savior? Is this the purple state savior? Is this the guy who's finally gonna finally help us stop getting our ass kicked in Iowa and Florida and these sorts of things? Like, like why, why not put one of those guys forward in, in Minnesota or I got nothing against the Minnesota.

[JVL]

But sometimes this does work, right? Like sometimes Tester wins, sometimes Fetterman wins. And I don't know, I, I, it.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Feels like it's a shot they sort of slot into like that the sort of, they immediately become sort of like the purple state heterodox figure which, like how much, how much impact does that actually have if, if what Democrats are trying to do in part is like resuscitate their totally failing national brand?

[Tim Miller]

I mean, well, it has impact if you beat Susan Collins versus losing to Susan Collins was hit it last time. So that's not nothing brand wise though. Like, look, I don't, I think that one thing that could just, the Democrats could use and Fetterman I think would have really helped with this more if he was able to talk. And like that is having figures, maybe not just one one off. The Democrats really could use three. And so that's why you got to win in different places. But they could use a handful of people who just seem like they authentically care about working people. Like this is not a bit like this is not a talking, like I don't not only care about them, but I am one of them. You know, one of my friends sent me this thing that they were looking at a post election focus group study and one of the people in the focus group said, I feel like the Democrats are the party that would make fun of me for shopping at Walmart. And it's like you can't fix that without having people that look like they shop at Walmart. Like, honestly, like you can almost say as much as you want to fight it, but like you do need people that feel that they feel authentic on this. And so this guy fits that. And I think that's good. I think the brand stuff is good. I think my one other nitpick I'd Just say, and the one, I think open question on this was one of the things he was asked. Was he asked this? Or he might have set up a strawman in the video. I think he set up a straw man on the video and people ask like, why aren't you just another liberal? And he says, how can I be a liberal when I'm a competitive pistol shooter? And in some ways that kind of cuts against it. He's sort of like, the other Democrats don't pistol shoot. And it's like, you can't be a liberal in a pistol shooter. Like, you can do both. And like, that is one. And that is again where the policy. And maybe this is where me and JBL might just disagree a little bit. I'd like to hear your final thought on this is just like, I do think you just listed a bunch of policies that are again, just left policies. And like, I, I just, I think it would help if a dude like this, like, had at least a. And maybe he doesn't believe this. I'm not trying to tell him to make up his policy views, but it'd be nice for the Democrats to have people who are like, you know what? I fucking hate Donald Trump. I want to fight the man. I want to raise the minimum wage. I want universal healthcare for everybody. I want, I want to end forever wars. And I also do think it's crazy that trans girls are in boys sports or trans boys are in girl sports or I really do think, I feel passionately that like, we don't need background checks to hire to buy guns at gun shows. I don't, like, I don't fucking care what it is, but like, give me some. And you know, I feel like it's a little bit of a tell if you're like, like, I can't be a liberal. I shoot a pistol. It's like, well, okay, but like, what are the issues? Agree with them on?

[JVL]

You know, maybe the gun stuff will wind up being where he makes this thing. I, I have been increasingly thinking that actually Second Amendment stuff is a, a real growth opportunity for liberals to change course on because, you know, we're about to need a well organized militia with all those ice cream chips. Same thing.

[Tim Miller]

That's a great place to leave it. That is a great place to leave it.

[JVL]

I'm kidding. Making jokes about civil war because I don't, you know, as somebody once said, the only thing more powerful than money is violence. Okay, guys, great show. Incredibly long show. I'm all, I'm just kidding about all this stuff. Damn. It's good thing Sarah doesn't listen to these things when I'm gone. Andrew, thanks for sitting in, guys. We'll be back next week with the full crew. Good luck to America.