1009: Vance is a DORK! MAGA is GAY! Sandwich Man WINS!

Summary

The Next Level – “Vance is a DORK! MAGA is GAY! Sandwich Man WINS!”

Podcast: The Next Level by The Bulwark
Hosts: Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last (JVL)
Release Date: August 27, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode blends pointed political commentary, insider campaign analysis, and irreverent banter as the trio returns from summer travels. The discussion ranges from Democratic leadership challenges, MAGA movement oddities, and culture war absurdities to the state of focus group democracy, the grand jury process, and who’s really winning at Disney parks. At its core is relentless scrutiny of the Democratic Party’s ability (or inability) to mount an effective defense against rising authoritarianism, as well as the crosscurrents reshaping both major parties.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Theme Park Politics & the Return from Vacation

[02:00 - 03:06]

• Sarah recounts her West Coast parks adventure, noting subtle “tribal” differences between Disney (Kamala Harris vibes) and Universal (MAGA gear).
  • “Universal Studios felt like it was for Republicans... Disney felt like Kamala Harris voters.” (Sarah, 02:41)
• The group jokes about Twitter FOMO and crowd-sourced shaming for working on vacation.

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2. Gavin Newsom’s Troll Game & The Nature of Modern Political Leadership

[03:48 - 15:59]

• Newsom’s online “Trump parody” and shitposting has won over many Dems and “normies”—but is this what the presidency now requires?
• Sarah’s “mirror” theory: Newsom holds up the absurdities of MAGA to MAGA, and reactions are telling.
  • “Holding up a mirror to what they tolerate from Trump for the sake of partisanship is a great exercise.” (Sarah, 06:03)
• Tim questions whether mere performance, even effective trolling, can build a broad-based coalition; irony and meta-commentary only go so far:
  • “You can't really rally the country behind irony and sort of meta-commentary on the commentary…” (Tim, 12:35)
• JVL and Sarah agree: Democratic insiders and activists desperately want a “fighter,” but “performance artist from California is not going to do well in central Pennsylvania.”
• A “This and That” Seinfeld reference sets up their ideal candidate: someone earnest, able to rally the country—and able to own the cons.

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3. The Job of the Next Democratic President: De-Trumpification

[17:06 - 20:03]

• JVL highlights that the paramount task for any Dem successor will be “de-Trumpifying” federal institutions—requiring “pure political willpower.”
  • “...the most important duty of the next Democratic president… is not going to be leadership, bipartisan, pass legislation stuff. It's going to be having the stones to de-Trumpify the federal government...” (JVL, 17:06)
• Sarah argues the ticket must win and appeal to key swing states—a “Josh Shapiro type” over a performer like Newsom.

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4. Israel, BB Netanyahu, and Intra-Democratic Party Wedges

[20:03 - 21:32]

• The party’s Israel-Gaza split poses huge strategic hurdles.
  • “Why isn't the best Democratic nominee a BB-Critical Jewish guy?” (Sarah, 20:20)
• Shapiro could bridge divides—but would have to “go overboard” criticizing Netanyahu to win the nomination.

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5. Lisa Cook’s Firing & the Decline of Institutional Norms

[23:53 - 33:43]

• Trump’s firing of the first Black woman Fed governor is alarming for institutional independence—but largely unnoticed by the public.
  • “You will never conduct a focus group in which anybody mentions the name Lisa Cook…” (JVL, 23:53)
• Tim and JVL focus on the new “enemies list” authoritarianism—government leverage over individuals:
  • “The head of the Federal Housing Finance Agency has an enemies list that he's going through…” (Tim, 27:15)
• The normalization of abuses—firing enemies, prepping to purge the Fed further—is a symptom of creeping autocracy.
• Markets and the public are disturbingly unphased.

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6. Political Messaging, DNC Weakness, and Progressive Populism

[35:52 - 48:28]

• Tim laments the DNC’s “veep-shit” priorities (land acknowledgments, Powerpoints, identity signaling) over voter mobilization:
  • “...focus on rallying people around, fighting [Trump]. That is your job at the DNC. It is not your job...to make sure every minority group feels like they have a safe space when they come to your bill.” (Tim, 41:23)
• Sarah slams Dems’ fundraising and messaging incompetence; calls for donors to “build something new.”
• Pointed praise for the left populist strategy: fielding “normal” working-class faces (even if white, not just Bernie/AOC types).
  • “They're putting on an actual effort to say, hey, we have a brand issue with working people...just as a general matter, it's like, we're gonna recruit working class people, we're gonna do ads where they talk like regular fucking people...” (Tim, 46:07)

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7. Sandwich Man Acquitted: Signs of Resistance

[48:30 - 51:47]

• Grand juries continue to resist DOJ overreach—even the “Indict-a-Ham-Sandwich” maxim fails when “Sandwich Man” and others are brought up.
  • “The DOJ, Pam Bondi DOJ and her henchmen are just getting their ass beaten all over...and that’s nice. That’s a win.” (Tim, 49:52)
• A rare moment of levity and optimism.

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8. MAGA A-Gays: Identity, Opportunism, and Grievance Culture

[51:47 – 73:07]

• NYT piece on “a gays of Washington” prompts reflection on long-standing tensions and cycles among gay Republicans.
  • “Republicans don’t like you because you are gay. Democrats don’t like you because you are a Republican.” (Sarah, 52:46)
• Sarah and Tim trade war stories from Log Cabin days, noting the shift from “normie” gay Republicans to grievance-driven, opportunist MAGA gays, mostly white men.
  • “A, just like any other group, not just gays, some people have a thirst for power and want to go after their enemies and they have grievances. Trump appeals to them because they’re aggrieved.” (Tim, 68:33)
• Power and attention are now the prizes for loyalty, not policy advancement—often at the expense of principle or broader social progress.

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9. Disney Fight Club: Theme Park Joy or Parental Scam?

[73:11 - 80:25]

• Heated yet humorous “fight club” over the real value of theme parks for kids.
  • Tim: The hype is overblown; younger kids don’t really enjoy it, you’re wasting thousands—“conscientious objector.”
    (Tim, 73:23)
  • Sarah: With the right ages and expectations, it’s pure family magic. (Big win on Star Wars and Harry Potter rides.)
  • Exemplifies generational and parental divides in modern American life.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Newsom vs. Trumpism:
  “If you match Trump in trolling behavior and shitposting, I don't know that I think that is part of what is required in this moment...ridicule is legitimate...I do not think it’s the presidential part.”
  – Sarah Longwell [06:19-07:12]

• On Dem Messaging:
  “You can't really rally the country behind irony and sort of meta-commentary on the commentary. I feel like you need...earnestness.”
  – Tim Miller [12:35]

• On De-Trumpifying the Government:
  “The next Democratic president...it's going to be having the stones to de-Trumpify the federal government, which will be a fight that consumes at least the entire first year...requires pure political willpower.”
  – JVL [17:06]

• On the DNC’s Misplaced Focus:
  “...It is not your job actually to create policy. It is not your job...to make sure that every minority group feels like they have a safe space when they come to your bill. Focus on the job of registering voters, of going into communities and identifying people...who might be Democrats and...talking about how Donald Trump is a fucking shitbird. That’s your job.”
  – Tim Miller [41:23]

• On MAGA Gays and Status:
  “This is a group of people that wields being gay as like, why, like one of why they should have the job. And also loves to complain...it's all a culture of victimhood.”
  – Sarah Longwell [66:07]

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Timestamps for Notable Segments

• [02:41] – Theme parks as political microcosms
• [05:38] – Newsom “mirror strategy” and authenticity debates
• [12:35] – Dilemma: can irony and trolling unify a party/country?
• [17:06] – The central mission of a post-Trump presidency
• [23:53] – Institutional autocracy: Lisa Cook and Fed independence
• [41:23] – Tim’s DNC “veep-shit” rant and fundraising reality check
• [46:07] – Praise for left-populist candidate recruitment
• [49:52] – “Sandwich Man” grand jury resistance
• [52:46] – The paradox of being a gay Republican
• [66:07] – Grievance, victimhood, and opportunism among MAGA gays
• [73:23] – Disney debate: scam or magic?

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Tone & Style Reflections

• The hosts alternate between wonky policy detail, “inside baseball” campaign tales, and comic relief.
• The episode is deeply critical of both parties—but especially the Democratic Party’s drift and performative priorities.
• There is palpable anxiety about America’s slide toward authoritarianism, occasionally punctured by gallows humor and hopeful serendipities (e.g., grand jury resistance, left-populist efforts, theme park joy).
• Banter about “Disney grownups,” MAGA’s embrace of grievance, and old Log Cabin war stories give a personal, authentic feel.

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Summary

This episode exposes deep existential anxiety among center and center-left observers about both the MAGA movement’s authoritarian advance and the inability of Democratic institutions to effectively resist it. Extraordinary political times require extraordinary political actors—but the right mix of trolling, seriousness, and broad appeal remains elusive. Meanwhile, Sarah, Tim, and JVL provide both a roadmap for what’s needed—and a bracing (and at times hilarious) critique of all that stands in the way.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

The kid throwing a sandwich at a stormtrooper. That's a funny bit.

[C]

I'm sure it is for. Yeah. For people who know what a stormtrooper is, but go ahead. Hello, everyone.

[B]

This is JVL here with my best friend, Tim Miller and. What?

[C]

What?

[B]

What? Sarah Longwell.

[D]

You miss me, boys?

[B]

Again?

[C]

Boy, thank God. How long was it? It felt like a fortnight.

[D]

It was, you know. Do you know how long a fortnight is?

[C]

It's two weeks.

[D]

Yeah. I had to look that up recently because I've been watching a lot of British television and they use them for. I was like, wimbledon is a fortnight.

[B]

Wimbledon is two weeks.

[C]

A fortnight. Yeah.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

Was it a fortnight that you were going?

[D]

It wasn't, but it was like 10 days.

[C]

So I support that. I'm thinking about taking off a fortnight next summer because it was going to be the last chance until, you know, the end of democracy.

[D]

Yeah. Well, this was a. I got to tell you, I did all the parks, so I have a. I have a new nephew out on the west coast. And so we used the opportunity to both introduce my kids to their new cousin, but also to do Universal and Disneyland. And I don't know about you guys, but I like parks. I like the theme parks. I like the roller coasters.

[C]

All right, I hard disagree. Save this fight for the end. We have authoritarianism to talk about.

[D]

All right, fine. We'll do that at the end.

[C]

But I have a hard. I could not disagree more strongly. And. And if people care about that, we should fight about it at the end.

[D]

I would love to, but while I was in line at these parks, I.

[C]

Unfortunately, you were tweeting. I noticed you were tweeting.

[B]

You were tweeting. Is grouping the people in line because you needed your fix. Just saying.

[D]

I was, sir.

[B]

I'm just Wondering, are you a flipper, sir? Did you flip?

[D]

Are you a double hater?

[B]

You seem like a double hater, ma'.

[C]

Am.

[B]

You look like a double hater to me. I. I was just curious, what do you think about electricity prices?

[D]

You guys, I have so many political takes. Like, first of all, just, just a real quick one. Universal Studios felt like it was for Republicans. Like the audience, the people that were there, that felt like Trump voters, Disney felt like Kamala Harris voters. I can unpack why we don't have to go deep on it, but I'm just saying that was an observation of mine.

[B]

So I guess the sanctimonious was right. Disney's all woke.

[D]

It's not even that it's woke, but I didn't see a single MAGA hat in all of Disney. Whereas I would say at Universal, I saw many more MAGA slash MAGA adjacent apparel. But. But the main thing was I mostly.

[B]

Tried a normal thing to happen in a country that is not authoritarian.

[D]

I know. Hold on. Okay, so real quick, in the lines I was trying not to tweet, I mostly didn't. Our audience, the number of people after Tim yelled at me and said, aren't you supposed to be on vacation? Which, by the way, was a thing my wife was saying the whole time too. Then in my comments, anytime I tweeted, it was just a bunch of people chastising me for not taking my vacation. I did not care for it.

[C]

That is an objective achieved. That why I tweeted at you. I wanted, I wanted to create a pile on effect to shame you, to get you off of your phone.

[D]

I was just like, how many wives do I have to have? I've got my podcasting wives and my actual wife, and everyone's just telling me I can't. I'm not allowed to tweet about anything. I was like, they're taking over the streets of D.C. like, the number of takes I have pent up in my body right now. Okay, One thing happening on my phone while I'm in line is a bunch of people talking. I'm watching videos of them dragging people off the streets. The streets that I walk on and look at every day. My friends are sending me things from their windows where they're showing cops grabbing people. So I'm, I, I'm in like a rage state about what's happening on the Streets of Washington D.C. all on the other hand, I've got Gavin Newsom doing Trump parody and I'm having to be like, oh, no. The week that I'm Gone is the week that I have nice things to say about Gavin Newsom. I was watching him do this thing right, where he's tweeting in all caps and people are doing AI images and it's just a. It's a mirror image of the Donald Trump stuff. And here's the thing. There's a lot of people, it led a lot of people over the course of the vacation that I ran into to ask me if I thought Gavin Newsom should be president. That, like, he is. He is doing a thing right now that has a lot of people going. Is he the guy? Because this is fun, this is funny. And I want to say two things that. One, I think Gavin Newsom is doing exactly the right thing. I think that this kind of trolling, this kind of holding up, my favorite thing about it is that it holds up a mirror to the MAGA people. Like, the responses are incredible. They're like, what does he think he doing? It's so unprofessional. How would he, how could he ever be president? Yeah, I'm like, this is the best. Showing people what they talk about.

[C]

My favorite was J.D. vance talking about how it's not authentic.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Mr. The authority on authenticity, the man who's on his third name. Second religion, second political ideology also, that.

[B]

Would suggest that Donald Trump is legitimately brain damaged.

[D]

Yeah, right.

[B]

And you know, like, come on, everybody knows that Trump is only like this because he's not right in the head. Anyway, sorry, continue.

[D]

And so, yeah, so holding up a mirror to what they tolerate from Trump for the sake of partisanship is a great exercise. I do not think it makes Kevin Newsom the person who should be president. Like, I do think we have to separate.

[C]

Couldn't you just handed it to him for one episode?

[D]

I'm handing it to him. I'm handing it to him. But I'm going to answer the question of if you, if you match Trump in trolling behavior and shit, posting, I don't know that I think that that is. That is part of what is required in this moment. I do think that people have to take it to him and Gavin Newsom. I really do want to hand it to Gavin Newsom. He has at most of the turns when it comes to going on Fox News and fighting, pushing back, saying they're going to, you know, do in California what they do in Texas. Like, he handles a lot of that stuff the right way. That actually doesn't inspire confidence in me, though, that, that this is the person who should be President. It's more like he understands the schoolyard bullying dynamics and knows how to get into them. That's different from managing the fires and managing a state.

[C]

I agree with you. But can we steel, man? The pro Gavin case, which is in the year of our Lord 2028, is not the ability to be a performance artist. That gets people excited about you. The job of president.

[D]

Now, I think being a leader is very important. I think whether or not one should be or. It is good for us to have performance artists as presidents.

[C]

I didn't ask for shoulds. I did not ask for shoulds. My therapist is better help our sponsor today. My therapist from back in 2019 kept telling me to stop using shoulds. All right.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay. We're asking you to assess the world as it is.

[D]

And. And I am.

[C]

And might the world as it is be that the president's job now is to be like the best possible troll.

[D]

I think the. The president needs to be somebody who communicates directly with voters.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

I do not think the president has to be a troll.

[B]

Okay, let me ask a separate question. So you're saying, should Gavin be president? I'm less interested in that and interested. More interested in. Do you think Gavin would be the most or would be a top level candidate capable of defeating Donald Trump?

[D]

No.

[B]

In 2028?

[D]

No.

[B]

That's the question.

[D]

No.

[C]

And Donald Trump's going to run a campaign in 2028?

[B]

I mean, sure. So he can win 78% of the vote.

[C]

J.D. vance, the Vance Trump. Would Newsom be the best person on the top of the ticket against the Vance Trump ticket?

[D]

No.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

And that's what I want to hear. I think a performance artist from California is not going to do well in central Pennsylvania. And this is going to be. I'm never going. You're never going to move me off this. That Gavin Newsom is.

[C]

What if the focus groups tell you otherwise?

[D]

Well, here's what I. People are going to be pumped about Gavin. His name ID is going to go. And so I have. This is why I have conflicting feelings about what's happening, because I think he's doing exactly something that should be done. I think that this is like, there needs to be people in the Democratic Party who take this posture, who do show this particular brand of leadership in fighting back and in making fun of Trump. Like, I think this ridicule, I think it is a legitimate part of what we do next. I do not think it's the presidential part. So I'm going to separate those two things now. Let Me just say, though, if that's.

[C]

Pretty close to my take from last week, so I don't have much to push back on you if. Josh, thank you for not listening to the Next Level podcast and enjoying your vacation. No, I didn't listen. I was pretty close to my taker.

[D]

Was good.

[C]

Yeah, he was.

[D]

Okay, well, thanks for letting me get it off my chest. I just.

[B]

Okay, well, I'm sorry.

[D]

I want to keep.

[B]

I want to keep prodding you here, Sarah. Sometimes people connect that we do not expect. I would not have thought that a millionaire real estate mogul from New York City would connect with voters in central Pennsylvania and Ohio, but he did.

[D]

Sure.

[B]

So does the fact that Newsom seems to be the only Democrat willing to try pushing every button on the console in front of him count for anything? I mean, because we. He tried all the things. He tried the thing where he had Charlie Kirk on his podcast and blamed trans people, and that didn't work. And so now he's trying the thing where he shitpost Donald Trump. That seemed. I mean, like, it does. It. It counts for something, doesn't it?

[C]

That's a good trait. I know that your voice sounds like it's a little sarcastic, but I think we all agree, like, this is a good trait in a politician right now.

[B]

That's what I'm saying. I'm not being sarcastic at all.

[D]

Hear me when I say my whole point is that I spent the week being gone going, gavin Newsom's doing the thing. He's finally doing the thing. Someone's doing this thing, and he's doing it well. He's. I genuinely think he is doing it well. I think he's got the right. You're right. He tried a bunch of things that didn't work. This is the thing that works. And I want somebody to go squarely at Trump. I want somebody to hold up this mirror. I like all of it. My only. The only thing I'm saying is I do not think that translates directly into, this guy should be the next Democratic nominee for president.

[C]

I think this obviously works with Democratic voters. And, like, the anecdote of just, like, your friends, you know, mom, you know, messaging you with this sort of stuff. Like, all that sort of, like, all the anecdote is. Shows Gavin off the charts right now with, like, Democrat normies. I do my big complaint. It's not even a complaint because I think. I think for the moment, it's absolutely the right thing to do. He should be doing it. He's doing everything right for the week of August 27, 2025 there is like an issue with the Democrats that I don't really know how to fix because it's kind of a vote about a voter issue, which is like since it's, since we've now education polarized like people high education, people don't want to be in a cult really, which is good quite as much. Right. And so, and so what that leads us to is this kind of like meta behavior where Gavin is being, you know, kind of like ironic, likely making fun of Trump and, and that's, you can't really like rally the country behind irony and like sort of meta commentary on the commentary. I feel like you need, if you go back to Obama, which is the closest things the Dems had to a culture which wasn't anything like now, but I just think it was the closest thing. And he did have the, you know, Greek columns and all that. Like he was fucking earnest, right? Like Obama was earnest about what he wanted to do. And Trump say what you want about him. He jinx jokes and stuff obviously. And he, and he, and he bullshits. But like he has an earnest, like people are earnestly for the nationalism, some of them are earnestly for the authoritarianism. Right. And so that's my like issue with the strategy is like a long term thing is that like eventually, I don't know that JVL seems to be disagreeing, but I don't know that you can just have ironic detachment as the center of your, you know, organ.

[D]

I don't know.

[B]

I mean, what, what if, what if the sine qua non for the next Democratic nominee is going to have to be. But he fights because like, where's Westmore? It will be like, it will be great today.

[C]

Westmore has been good today. He was out there talking about how Donald Trump's obsessed with them, how he keeps calling him handsome. I thought that was pretty good.

[B]

Yeah, but it's still, you know, it's super careful, super calculated. Gretchen Whitmer is like, I'm just gonna.

[C]

Do not lump Wesmore in with Gretchen Whitmer on this.

[B]

I'm just saying that, that Gavin Newsom is the guy who clearly is, is saying to America's Democrats, love me for sure. And that that's powerful. Like he's willing to try stuff. He is ambitious, he is open about his ambition. Right. I mean it's not even like he's hiding it between beneath like, oh, they're going to have to draft me. Right? I mean he's like, he's out. I just think I don't know. I am not willing to categorically say that this thing can't work.

[D]

No, it is working. It does work, and it is a necessary, I think, part of the pushback against Trump. I just don't. And look, I want people to go on this mission of trolling and hitting and fighting and. And making fun of. That person, though, I think is probably different from the person who ultimately runs for president in a way that is not high. I'm here as the person who's running like a. As a simulacrum of what Trump did. Right. It is ironic detachment. It is not. Here's my vision for the country. Like, here's who I am. Here's. I'm somebody you can believe in. It is a type of leadership that I think appeals to people who are online, to the MSNBC moms, and the desperation from voters for somebody to fight back. They're so desperate that, like. And me, too. This is my point. My point is, I was like, oh, my gosh, she's doing a thing. So just hear me. When I am not. I am taking this at full value and saying it is an. Unequivocally a good thing. I just think for a lot of people, it leads to an immediate next question of, well, don't we think that makes Gavin the front runner for 2028? And I'm like, I hope not.

[C]

Can I make an elder millennial Seinfeld reference on this? Which is what I feel. Remember when Elaine, not even season one, Elaine and Jerry are talking about their relationship, and Jerry's like, I want friendship and sex. I was like, I want to have this and that. And Elaine's like, you can either have this or that. Elaine's like, but I want the other. Right? And I kind of feel like with a candidate, I want to have this and that. I want to have somebody that is earnest and cares about governing and governing well. And I can rally people behind some. I'm, like, open to kind of what the main idea is, even, and whether that's lefty populism or neoliberal. Josh. Josh Shapiro. But I kind of. I want, like, a rat. I know what you want, but I'm open what it is. But I want somebody who, like, has a. Has a positive rationale for what they're fighting for or against. And also somebody that's good at trolling and owning the lit and owning the cons and making fun of Trump. Like, I want. I want this and that. And, like, right now, I'm being offered, like, this or that.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

Well, I mean, I don't want to alarm you guys, but it does seem to me that the most important duty of the next Democratic president, if there is another Democratic president, is not going to be, like, leadership, bipartisan, pass legislation stuff. It's going to be having the stones to de Trumpify the federal government, which will be a fight that consumes at least the entire first year of his or her term and requires pure political willpower. It really will have nothing to do with, like, leadership. It will just simply be willing to fire Cash Patel even though he's the sitting FBI director. It'll be willing to remove Kevin Hassett from the Federal Board of Governors after he has given Lisa Cook's place. Right. I mean, it's. That stuff is going to be throughout the entire government and it's going to be really distasteful. And everybody who's responsible is going to sit around wringing their hands saying, oh, no, oh no. Now it's both sides. This Democratic person is just as bad as Donald Trump. And they're going to have to do it, right. They're going to have to go into the Vaccine Advisory Board and fire all of the Looney Tune people who Kennedy appoints to that. And that, that's going to be the most important thing that a Democratic president can do. And it won't have anything to do with like passing budgets.

[C]

And I agree with that.

[B]

Doing legislation.

[D]

Yeah. And so on that point, I think that what you want is a Josh Shapiro, like, person who can, number one, win. Like, the first thing you have to do is win an election. Win a national election which includes Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan and Democrats have like some real reality checks in their future. You can get mad at me for saying Josh Shapiro and you can dismiss it like Sarah Centrism. I am telling you guys, the Democratic Party right now is in Hawk. They are. They are broke. They are.

[C]

They're what? They're in Hawk. Tua. What are they in Hawk.

[D]

Like, they are in debt. You know when you have to hawk something because you're in debt? Okay.

[B]

Not Hawk.

[C]

Hawk.

[D]

Hawk.

[B]

Tim's hearing it wrong. Yeah, him is hearing Hawk to her. That's. Yeah, that's what I. I know where his mind is.

[D]

Boy, I missed this. I gotta tell you. No, the Democrats are super in debt. Every. Every. If you go and look right now at the people, the registration numbers, Republicans are destroying Democrats on it. The DNC is worth nothing right now. And we can get to the dnc, but like, they are in debt. They had to pay off the debts of Kamala Harris's campaign. Guys, there is a big, big problem. And I think it's good for Gavin Newsom to do play his role. But there's going to have to be a role for somebody else who says, I am somebody who can win in Pennsylvania, I am somebody who can win in Michigan, I am somebody who can win back Nevada. And that's going to be somebody who can get these things done.

[B]

Sarah, is BB Netanyahu doing anything that you think might make Josh Shapiro's chances of winning a Democratic primary harder?

[D]

Actually, I'm glad you asked this. This is a good, this is a great.

[C]

Because obviously the answer is yes, and we can just say it's yes.

[D]

We can say it's yes. But also there's an opportunity here. Why isn't just hypothetically, why isn't the best Democratic nominee a BB Critical Jewish guy? Why isn't that the person who brings the Democratic Party together?

[C]

He's got to be really fucking critical. He has to be real critical. Going overboard. You know, it's kind of like how J.D. vance has a. Ever Trumper has to go overboard and praising.

[D]

But why can't he do that?

[C]

Josh would need to like, find his inner JD Fans to do the opposite.

[B]

I'd like to.

[D]

I think a. I think a Jewish. Right now, the Democratic Party is paralyzed on this issue because it is a wedge issue within their own party between their donors, their activist base, whatever. I think having somebody like Josh Shapiro who can say what is happening in Gaza is a humanitarian crisis. Bibi Netanyahu is a Trump like, thug figure. And I think. And I will stand up to him when I'm the president. You don't think that plays? I think it plays.

[B]

I think that would be great. I'd have to see it, though. I'm just, I'm just saying I think that's. That's a tough load to carry. That's all.

[C]

No, I know. Yeah, I do. I think too, too. I think it would be a. It would be a challenge.

[B]

We're going to move on to the Lisa Cook stuff in a second. But first, an ad by BetterHelp.

[C]

It was BetterHelp today. How about.

[B]

Yeah, that's right.

[C]

These days, what do they call that when you do the advertisement right in the show? Native.

[B]

Native advertising.

[C]

Native. I did a native ad. Give us a double bonus for this one ad client.

[B]

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[C]

Of her in the dei.

[B]

I don't know. I'm pretty depressed because of the whole Lisa Cook thing and because of what an unserious country this is Sarah. Would you care to talk me out of that? No.

[D]

Why would I talk you out of that?

[B]

You know, because you're the optimist, that's why.

[D]

Yeah, I know, but this is bad. I'm not optimistic, like, blindly optimistic. I know. Actually, I gotta tell you, being on vacation for 10 days and sort of standing aside from things, maybe you had this experience too. Jbl, the how quickly things are moving, how many bad things happened that I saw during that period of time where I was like the, the, the rapid nature. And it was so weird to be in a place where everybody was more or less happy and normal and like, going on rides while I was looking at my phone. And this is one of the reasons you shouldn't look at your phone. Like, you should allow yourself to live in the world and have it not feel like destiny.

[C]

I'm sorry, I know this is kind of a minor thing at this point in the serious podcast. Like, did you not have the fast pass? It felt like you were in the lines a lot.

[B]

Save that for the end. Save that for the end. Sarah, you, Bill and I all had the exact same reaction coming, like, re entry from vacation. I think we all came in more depressed because not being really in it every day the way we are when we're working made the shock to the system of coming back. It really highlighted the rapidity of what's happening.

[D]

Well, and there's this, I mean, I don't know how much of this is worth getting into, but there is a weird. The dissonance of looking at your phone and feeling like, man, the slide to authoritarianism is happening so quickly. And then looking around and being like, no one seems particularly bothered by this, and if they are, they're keeping it to themselves. You know, like, it's just, it didn't feel like a world that was ready to go fight or even was noticing what was happening. Now, granted, you know what's to be said when you're at Disneyland, but I don't know. It just the contrast. And I do think that some of this is a problem. Like, part of the problem of our phones is that it concentrates the negativity into one space. And I think that that's a problem overall. On the other hand, I, I really do feel like people just going on with their lives while this is happening is the bigger of the two problems.

[B]

Tim, give me some Lisa Cook thoughts.

[C]

I, I, the thing I'm the most obsessed about on the Lisa Cook situation is not really about Lisa Cook herself, though obviously it's Bad. It's insane that what is happening. And it's bad. And I don't like the one, the single Fed board governor like, is that going to be the thing that ends. Brings the end of democracy? I don't. I don't think so, probably. But like the way in which it happened. And I cannot get myself off of this Bill Pulte character. Yeah, like the Bill Pulte character to me seems to actually be the central character in this, which is that, you know, he is in charge of the Federal Housing Finance Agency, FIFA, and this person in charge of fhfa, I guess, apparently has an enemies list, and that's where we're at. The head of the Federal Housing Finance Agency has an enemies list that he's going through and he's trying to find if any of the enemies filled out their mortgage forms wrong. I just don't think that's really sunk in with people. That is where we're at on the authoritarian project.

[B]

But that's like planning, right? I mean, that is when that is Project 2025 level stuff sitting around. Once we get inside the government and we have access to all the data, what are ways we can find things on people to use against them? Oh, mortgage stuff. Yes. We'll put Bill over there.

[C]

Yeah. This is like death of stuff. This is like, it's like a random Russian apart chick, you know, is like comrades, you know, I have found disloyalists, you know, inside the government that we need to purge. And so, you know, I mean, this person, he's 37 years old, he's from Boca Raton. He got famous on handing out money on social media, I guess, apparently to Trump supporters. He gets this job, like as, you know, as this random bureaucrat, and he's using the job to target people. He's gone after now. Tish James, Adam Schiff and Lisa Cook, I don't really know the merits of their mortgage issues, and I don't think it really matters. Right. You know, I mean, it's not as if this is a neutral effort where the government is looking through people that declared two homes as their primary homes and they want to clean the system and everyone's going to get a fine if they did that. You know what I mean? Like, that's not what's happening. Like, they just specifically targeted people. Like a group of people, they found a couple they think did something wrong. The guy makes accusations against her. There's no, no jury. There's no grand jury. There's no trial. There's no, you know, anything and the President is just like, you're fired because of this. Like, it's just, it's not, it is a banana republic. It's a banana republic type situation. And I think that there are like some discreet concerns about like the worst case scenarios with the Fed in particular. Right. Like if the Fed loses independence and what the economic impacts of that. And I think that's, that's a very serious concern. But I guess I'm just more struck by like the witch hunt purge side of it and what that means for the government writ large and what that means if you're in the government and you're trying to do a job and what that means if you are in the government and you want to get promoted, you know, like, how are you going to behave? I just think that it's a lot of.

[B]

I'm more concerned about Fed independence because that is the kind of thing that sends you into like Argentina land. Right. I mean, when we talk about banana republics, I mean, one of the things, central bank becoming the central bank losing independence is a classic sign of autocratic decline.

[D]

Yeah, but why, why doesn't the market, why doesn't the market at all spooked by this?

[B]

Because it's not, boy, beats me.

[D]

And obviously to me, this is just a clear normalization as he gets closer to firing Jerome Powell. Right. This is just, I'm trying to get my own people on the Fed because I need rate cuts to offset the damage my tariffs are doing. Like, that's it. It's a very straightforward play, what he's doing. And so it's weird to me that the markets don't say, don't do this. Like, the markets have been a relatively good poll for Trump. He kind of treats it like a poll and they show him when what he's doing is wrong. And if he was, when he moves to fire Powell, it has flagged in the past. Right. You have seen the market react, but this has it.

[C]

Well, the dollar tanked. The dollar tanked, dollar went down.

[B]

So this is. But then it rebounded. You know, the bond market is a little bit spooked, I think. But also, I mean, he does desensitize the market. Remember we had the Mike Lee tweet about, you know, the President just fired Jerome Powell and the market freaked out. And then the more like, you do that enough. And then when he really fires Jerome Powell, like, people are just acclimated. So, like, well, we knew he was going to do it someday, right?

[D]

No, I think that's right.

[B]

It just brings up all Sorts of problems. Like, I don't know. So let's pretend he fires Lisa Cook and he appoints Bill Pulte. Let's. Let's. He puts Bill Pulte on the Fed board.

[C]

Why not?

[B]

Should the next Democratic president fire Bill Pulte and point like an actual economist? Well, why? What's the cause? Right? I mean, then you, like, see, now, the Fed isn't independent.

[D]

The cause is that he's unqualified because he's a MAGA shit poster and that he should never have been in these roles in the first place.

[B]

I understand, but what I'm. What I'm saying is that I think these things are awfully hard to unwind because the pain, like, the price for unwinding them is going to be really, really high. And it assumes that, like, you're even in a position to have the power to unwind them. Which.

[D]

Do you know how you get to be in a position? Do you know how Josh Shapiro. Well, no. You win a resounding victory.

[B]

I don't know.

[C]

Oh, boy. It's bleaker than I thought.

[B]

Like, I mean, how do you win resounding victories when Trump's approval rate right now is 44? He's at 44 right now.

[D]

Yeah, well, Joshua Pierre's is 60 in the most important swing state in the country.

[B]

I'm just saying, like, you don't get resounding victories.

[D]

What is Tim doing? Are you crossing yourself?

[C]

It's a combination between serenity now and the sign of the cross.

[B]

So is there any.

[D]

But why. What's your. Why are you just.

[C]

Because it's just like. I mean, it's just like when I'm on the FY pod and Cam brings up BB again, it's just like. I don't know. I can only hear Josh Shapiro's name so many times in a podcast.

[D]

Okay, well, I can only hear Gavin Newsom so many times.

[C]

I hear you.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Just like you and jbl. It's like, what is the point? Isn't this a secret podcast right now? Jvl doomsdaying about the future of our autocracy. You talking about how Josh Shapiro will save us? Like, I don't. Why am I here? I guess was really my.

[B]

To close the loop on. On this. Is there anything to be done about Lisa Cook in a political sense? Or is the answer that what is going to happen to her will be dictated by courts and Democrats should not obsess about it because there is no way to ever get anybody to care about it? Like, what I get that's the My question is Talk to me about Lisa Cook as a political commodity this Labor Day.

[E]

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[C]

I don't think it is much. I think this is a court fight. It's getting an important legal fight. And I think that the Democrats. I haven't quite formulated exactly what this looks like, but when I was talking to Tommy Vitor on Friday's podcast, I played this clip from this guy, Tim Dillon. He's like this MAGA comedian guy who's kind of a conspiracy theorist. And Tim Dillon was basically like, all the things that me and Alex Jones have been warning about are coming to fruition. It's like Volunteer is getting all of our data. There are jackbooted thugs in the streets pulling people off of the streets. Like, I'm concerned about the power of the federal government. I think that there's maybe something there that like the Democrats can kind of. There may be. This wouldn't fit for every Democrat, but some of them kind of grab the mantle of like, rather than talking about authoritarianism and you know, in a academic sense talking about more of like this fucking thug is purging people from the government who say bad things. They're masked cops on the street pulling people off the streets, even US Citizens, they might come for you next. You know, there is, I think that there might be kind of a way to sort of get back the Glenn Greenwald part of the horseshoe with this. You know what I mean? Like, there's a little bit of like, of a. Trump is consolidating power in a fascistic way that is, you know, that there's. I think that there's some political juice there. I don't know that that's going to be like your campaign ad in the swing seat in the frontline house districts and 2026. But I think that there might be something there politically that's, that's more where you, you level Lisa Cook up to this broader, thuggish, you know, big government thing. You can tell I don't have it quite right, but there's something there, I think.

[D]

Yeah. I mean, this is, I think you're going to get to a point where Democrats. And this is, this is why I sort of people are always like, you just criticize Democrats. And I'm like, no, you need to convince America that these Republicans are, are the insane party. They are anti free speech. They are. They're taking stake in American companies. They're the socialists. Right. You go on offense there, but then your job, your one job. Democrats be the normal party. Just be the normal party. Right?

[B]

Which leads. We are so fucked into the Democratic National Committee meeting this week in Minneapolis. Tim and Sarah here. We'll make this a secret pod with just the two of you. I am going to step back and just let the two of you take the rubber hoses.

[C]

How does this happen? I guess is my question.

[B]

Go to town.

[C]

How does this happen? The meeting begins with a land acknowledgement, which is like, I just want to say, I go to yoga studios where they do land acknowledgments at the beginning of the yoga class. I think that's totally fine and appropriate. I don't have any issues with it. If you want to acknowledge the land that you're on and, and the Ohlone people and you think that gets people in the right spiritual mindset, cool, that's fine with me. I always was a little bit confused during the height of the awokening why people would want to do a land acknowledgement during a meeting in a conference room at Meta. I don't know that was really necessary. We begin our meeting with a land acknowledgement. And I don't understand why a party committee, that's job. It is to appeal to as many humans as possible, 50 plus 1% and maybe even more of the country would do something that feels so crazy to such a big swath of the country, even if you don't think it's crazy. And they begin this meeting and the woman, I guess she's speaking a native tongue, she comes up to start the meeting. And so I don't know that anyone in the room knew what she was saying, so I don't know why she would say it. And then she does the land acknowledgement. Okay? I don't know how that gets approved. If you work for a Democratic campaign or staff or politician and you're in a meeting where people go through an agenda and there's going to be a land acknowledgement, please throw your body on the train tracks. Then they also have presentations saying that voters overwhelmingly favor a serious about safety frame over a tough on crime frame. This is veep shit. This is just fucking Veep. Like, we're in Veep right now. What is this serious about safety?

[D]

Are you on, Are you on a college campus? Like, it sounds like what you do. Like, so it sounds like the way a presentation you get at the beginning of your college to be like, we are serious about safety on this campus and that's why we have these following things. It does not sound like a presidential campaign.

[C]

So stop. I don't. Look, I went to. We did this at the RNC back when I worked at the RNC. This was 12 years ago when, when the Republicans were defined as the crazy party and the Democrats were a little bit more normal. The, you know, we had these meetings, RNC meetings. And it was tough because you'd have, you know, you'd be there for three days and yet you have to let all these people speak and they're fucking insane people in the room. And somebody would want to talk about how, you know, women shouldn't have control of their own wombs or whatever. And you know that somebody. And then it'd be, you know, Dave Weigel would be in the room and write an article about it. And this would. And then this would be my job to kind of deal with it as a PR person. So, like, I get it, some of this stuff is a little unwieldy. But you know, like, that's your job though, to wield it, right? I mean, it's your job. Like, don't this, does this meeting have to be in public? Like, do you have to have a PowerPoint presentation where you talk about all the woke speak? Like, how are we still doing this in 2025? You know, I just, I don't get it. I don't, I don't understand. I don't know who it's for. And, and I just think that, like, get back to Gavin. I don't think we're asking too much. This is the other thing. People are nitpicking people. Sometimes Democrats are like, I'm feeling nitpicked. I don't feel like people are asking too much. It's like we have a aspiring authoritarian in the White House. Like, focus on how bad he is. Focus on that. Focus on rallying people around, fighting him. That is your job at the dnc. It is not your job actually to create policy. It is not your job to make sure that, you know, every minority group feels like they have a safe space when they come to your bill. Like, focus on the job of registering voters of, of going into communities and identifying people that are, that might be Democrats and interested in your message and talking about how Donald Trump is a fucking shitbird. Like, that's your job. That's it. It's not that hard of a job. That's my rant.

[D]

I'm just, I think I agree with all of that. And jbl, you know what? I would. You don't get to just sit back on this because this is the moment.

[B]

That I would like talking too much. I'm sorry.

[D]

No, you haven't. This is where Tim said so. It might be secret pod stuff, but this is why people let Donald Trump do all the stuff he does. Now you can say, you can sit here and be like, this isn't like, this is absurd. Sarah, you can't compare the two. Don't both sides. Like, I'll grant you, I think that what Republicans are doing is deeply dangerous. But if you don't think that this posture, this like insane out of touch, we're gonna like that is killing the Democrats. I need a party. This country needs an opposition party that can stand up to this authoritarian movement. And you're not going to do it with land acknowledgments. You're not. That is not what the American people are looking for. And right now, the rnc, do you know how much money it has on hand? $80 million. You know how much the DNC has on hand? $15 million. You know why? You know why? Because people think the party is a joke.

[E]

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[A]

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[D]

A joke and I have been talking to people. Look, I went out in the world, I talked to a lot of people and you know what I heard from Democrats? I can't watch anything. I can't. I can't look at anything. It's all so stupid. It's also, you know, they're tapping out guys. So this is why I like what Newsom's doing is at least it brings people back to engage because people want to feel like they're on a side that could actually do something that could actually win. People look at that, what's happening at the dnc and they think this is just, this is stupid. It's so stupid. And these are not. These people aren't going to lead us to anything but ruin. And it's an embarrassment they're embarrassed to be associated with. They're not going to give it money and they're not going to line up to run as candidates. And Democrats have got. I think somebody should say we're not even going to look. I think donors should get together and be like, we're building a new thing. Forget the dnc, that's Ken Martin. Forget it. They can't do anything. Let's build something new that actually I've.

[C]

Got one more and another thing and then JVL can talk. I've got one more and another thing and it's Sarah Longwell style because I want to hand I Do want to throw a hand, hand it to the left a little bit on something which is that one, one element of the left, which are like our kind of our natural foes in the coalition. But I feel like we can do an olive branch on this. The populist left, the Bernie AOC populous left, has done what I've been asking Democrats to do all year, which is they've went out and identified people that seem like regular fucking people to be the face of what they're pushing. I interviewed Dan Osborne for the pod. He's running as an independent, as a Democrat. But is it the guy in Maryland, Graham Planter? It's Planter. I'm having a brain fart. I think it's Planter, the guy running for Senate in Maine. He's the oyster guy. There have been a couple of other examples of this at the House level. And, and, and they're putting on an actual effort to say, hey, we have a brand issue with working people. We're gonna do, like, I don't love every single thing that they do in all those ads, but, like, but just as a general matter, it's like, we're gonna recruit working class people. We're gonna do ads where they talk like regular fucking people, where they, you know, act normal, where they don't focus on identity stuff, where they focus on economic issues, you know, where they focus on their backgrounds, you know, as people in the communities. And though that is great, those are people to put forward. Like, that is another thing that the DNC could be doing that is useful. Like, there's no reason why every person running as, like, a working class person fighting for economic interests needs to be a lefty. Bernie Populist type. Like that. That mold could work for a center left type candidate. There's no reason that that couldn't be, you know, something that they're trying to do to put more faces forward. And, like, it doesn't all have to be white guys. They're like, you know, I'm trying to get Angie Craig on the pod. She's gonna be on soon. Marie Gluzen Camp Perez. Like, you can find women like you. You don't have to just get white guys, but you could find just working class people or folks that, like, know how to talk normal and have them put them at the front of the DNC meeting instead of doing the identity shift. And, like, that's what people want.

[B]

Love everything you guys are saying.

[C]

All right.

[B]

Best piece of news we've gotten all week. Sandwich man lives. The feds have failed to secure their felony indictment.

[C]

Usa. Usa.

[B]

Feel like Hulk Hogan is smiling down from somewhere.

[D]

The people of Washington, D.C. were not going to lock this man up.

[C]

Right.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

So I don't know. I mean, is there anything more to say about this other than yes, it's nice to have somebody resisting?

[C]

And I have one thing to say about it that's good, that's positive, because I mentioned this briefly yesterday on the bottom, and I, and I, and I think that it was. I forget where I was, you know, in my hole too much. But the, There are people out there that are, like, it's related to the political, like, where, where are the successful. Where is successful resistance happening? Where is Trump being slowed? You know, like, and, and, and in a weird way, like, you don't think about this as political per se, but the grand juries like the actual process that, you know, the legal process, in a lot of ways, not all the ways, is holding. And one of those is in Washington, D.C. where these fuckers have, like, tried to prosecute. It wasn't just sandwich guy. There was a woman, I guess, who did.

[B]

She assaulted the ICE officer. Remember when he was the one who, like, elbowed her?

[C]

Yeah, yeah. So they took that case to three grand juries in D.C. all three rejected him. Now they take. They took the sandwich man to a grand jury. Rejected. And, you know, maybe they will try to seize power other ways, extrajudicially. And we know they're doing that in certain ways. But it is, it is at least somewhat encouraging and makes me happy that the fucking doj, Pam Bondi doj and her henchmen are just getting their ass beaten all over, you know, the courtrooms. And that's nice. That's a win. That's nice.

[B]

You know what they say in law school and criminal procedure is that indictments are so easy to get that you could get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich. That's one of the truisms of the legal world. Not in this case. You can't. Can't get them to indict a Subway sandwich, can you? And I love it so much. And I wish, I really wish we could have just some audio. I don't even need video, just audio of the grand jury deliberation in which they sit around and somebody goes, they saying this guy threw a sandwich and they want us to say he assaulted the police officer. It was just a sandwich right there. Was like. It didn't have, like a roll of nickels in it right now. Just a sandwich.

[D]

What the fuck is This.

[B]

I would love to have that audio. Sarah, are you finally prepared to.

[D]

That's not what happened. They just sat there and they were like, we're not indicting this guy. Okay. That's. They didn't, they didn't go back and forth about the. We're not going to do it.

[C]

Quick straw poll around the room, you know, everybody in favor of. Everyone who's interested in hearing more evidence about the sandwich man put up one finger and everybody's just like.

[B]

All right, so I need to turn the show over to you guys because there is a New York Times piece yesterday which is entirely outside of my wheelhouse. Headline is a gays of Washington who have never been happier to be out, proud and Republican. I have so many questions, including how the pro family, pro Jesus Republican Party could allow this. Like, why are. Does Charlie Kirk know that the A's of Washington are really hard at work within the, the Republican Party and the Trump administration? Is he okay with that? I. I just. Is this a thing? Is this really what's happening?

[D]

I'm so excited to talk about this because nobody knows more about gay Republicans, me and Tim, than Tim and I. Than Tim and I.

[C]

You worked at the Log Cabin Republicans. I never did.

[D]

I did.

[C]

I defer to your expertise.

[D]

And these are periodic write ups. Like, I have been in the gay Republican sphere long enough to know that this story gets written periodically. And it's basically always some version of Republicans are nicer to us than Democrats. Right. When you are, when you are a gay Republican, one of the features of that is that Republicans don't like you because you are gay. Democrats don't like you because you are a Republican. Now, alienating. It's alienating, right?

[C]

Not for me, but it wasn't for me, you know, because I'm affable. But for a lot of these guys, it's alienating. Yeah. I would say a lot of bitterness for some of them.

[D]

Yeah. I also never felt quite this way because I was like, I don't know everybody, the people are fine. Now, is it true that at the lesbian bar I often make a joke that when I would be out in my younger years and people would say, what do you do? I would say, I'm a cop, I'm a firefighter. Like, I'm just kidding. I didn't impersonate cops. My only point was I didn't lead with, well, I'm a young Republican. Does that sound like something you would enjoy? That doesn't go over great.

[B]

I conduct experiments on small animals. It's better than being a Republican.

[D]

So that. But I did. I never worked for the Log Cabin Republicans, but I was on the board and I was the board chair when Donald Trump got elected.

[C]

You're the Jerome Powell of the Log Cabinet, right?

[D]

That's right. And one of the things. And so I know that these pieces sort of come up over and over again. Tim, you and I, for some reason, I was just recently looking at this. You and I were in a piece together called Unlocking the Conservative Closet.

[C]

Oh yeah.

[D]

In the Advocate back in the day, it was Yumi and Ken Melman.

[C]

It is extremely humiliating to reread and I mentioned this in my book, actually, because I went to reread it for the book and it is, it's a tough reread. I'll just say, you know, it's a tough reread for me.

[B]

Tell me more about it.

[C]

Why I basically the short of it is.

[B]

I'll tell you why the short of.

[C]

It is I'm happy. I basically, basically they're like, why? How can you still be a Republican? Republicans hate gays. And I'm basically like, I basically compartmentalize it and focus on the other things I like. There's a longer version of it. But like that was it. And I reread that and I was like, huh, that's true. At least I was honest.

[E]

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[C]

But yeah, anyway.

[B]

All right, Sarah, continue.

[C]

Thanks for bringing that up, Sarah.

[D]

You're welcome. I also just reread that piece for a reason that will remain undisclosed at this moment. But. And I was taken aback by all of it. However, in the early days of Trump, this is when I was the board chair of Log Cabin Republicans. And I was like, we will not, I did not want to endorse Trump because one of the ways that the Log Cabin Republicans or the gay Republicans become a focal point every election is will they or will they not endorse the Republican nominee who invariably, up until Trump would make, you know, kind of a show of being anti gay? And this was a tough thing. And Tim, you with Mitt Romney, you may recall, right. Romney was the governor of Massachusetts where he was like totally cool with the gays. Then he ran as a Republican on a national ticket and suddenly was very like, no, I don't believe in gay marriage. And John McCain and George W. Bush, like, we knew. One of the things that is a, is a strange piece of the gay Republican thing is you sort of didn't listen to what they actually said. You inferred based on things you knew about them, whether they were really hostile to you or whether it was kind of a ploy. Right. And, and one of the ways that you could feel okay about this and justify it back then is, and I remind people of this when they go after us, is that Barack Obama did not support gay marriage at the time that he ran for president. So in 2008, we're still deep in the midst of state level ballot initiatives to ban gay marriage in the states. 2005 is the first is Massachusetts passes gay marriage. And so we're pretty much, we are not culturally there yet. And so people forget that it was kind of easier circa 2009, 2010. You're like, I don't know. Neither party supports gay marriage, so I'll go with the one that supports more of my policy ideas. Tim's making a face and I know.

[C]

Exactly to have that talking point because.

[D]

Well, because the, the real, the, the true thing was that the Democratic Party was obviously less hostile, though. Like, it was obviously less hostile than the Republican Party. However, several of the nominees in those early years we also knew were not personally hostile to gay people, but they were hostile for the sake of electoral positioning. Right. This is why Ken Melbourne was in.

[B]

Because their voters were hostile to gay people.

[D]

That's right. And it was a good. The gay marriage at the time is what the trans issue is now. In a lot of ways there's some differences and it's not, I don't have to go through all of them right now. But anyway, back to this story. I'm sorry.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I love this great material. I'm sure a lot of listeners like the material, but just personally, I just, I didn't sign up for when we. I thought we were just going to make fun of Charles Moran and the A's in dc. I didn't know that I was going to have to relive the trauma of my 2009 self. But, like, let's. So anyway, it's been good that you laid the groundwork.

[D]

Okay, so let me just say that in this story, what they're saying is there's a new class of MAGA gays all over D.C. and these names in this story are quite familiar to me. So when I was the board chair of Log Cabin, I, again, like I said, I refused to endorse Donald Trump. And a majority of the board came with me and refused to endorse him. But when he won, they wanted to go back and like, retroactively endorse him. And. Yeah. And I was kind of what Hakeem.

[C]

Jeffries is going to have to try to do.

[D]

Retroactively endorse Momdani. Yeah. So. And I wouldn't do it. Right. I was like, I was, I. And so there was a bit of a. I don't know what they, they basically a bunch of the state chapter showed up ready to take me out as board chair, and it was led by a guy named Charles Moran, who is the focal point of this story. Now, they didn't have to take me out because I was like, you know what? I'm not the right person to be the board chair in this environment because I'm extremely hostile to the Republican president. And. But there, but for a lot of them, I gotta tell you, it was a while to me to see a bunch of these guys say, well, Donald Trump's the most pro gay Republican president ever. So I support him. And I was like, but he's not a Republican in most of his policies. He's not a good person, he's horrible to women.

[B]

Which, let me tell you what authoritarian.

[D]

They did not care about that. I remember, I said, I remember when I was arguing and saying this guy said that women who get abortions should be punished, should go to jail. And remember one of the guys being like, I'm sorry he said that. But like, blah, blah, blah, you know, like, they just, they did not care. And I, it was a, it was an interesting time for me to realize that. I think I cared more. Like, I didn't care that he was not hostile to gay people because he was hostile to like everybody else. Like just because authoritarian it was. Yeah, it was.

[B]

He didn't want to specially persecute gay people. He just wanted to persecute all the people he hates.

[D]

That's right. So seeing these guys are now all a lot of these, by getting on the Trump train, they have been given nice jobs in. In MAGA world.

[C]

Can I just, can we sit on this point for a second? Because I do want to congratulate Charles Moran, who's a total lunatic, who attempted a coup against you as board chair of the log cabin Republicans 10 years ago, who has been out there slavishly supporting Donald Trump, defending him, smearing foes, you know, doing anything you'd want somebody to do to demonstrate your loyal support. And as Donald Trump's chief a gay, Charles T. Moran has been awarded the job of Associate Administrator for External affairs at the Department of Energy. So that's the reward that is out there for you in the. I bet he gets in the kingdom of heaven.

[B]

Secretary Burgum, once a quarter.

[C]

Associate Administrator for External affairs. Not the administrator for External Affairs.

[B]

Rumor. It happens.

[C]

So kudos to you, Charles Moran. Wow. The other thing that's interesting for me about this story is that definition of a gay. And my friend Sean McCreesh wrote that article and he's such a talented writer. But elsewhere in the article, Charles and others complain that everybody ices them out and that they get attacked on dating apps and that nobody wants to talk to them. And so I'm having trouble squaring how being the Associate Administrator for External affairs at the Department of Energy who nobody wants to talk to at the bar, translates in becoming an A gay. I don't really get that.

[B]

Rick Brunel seems like more of the.

[C]

A gay, I guess. I mean, but like a. With who? I mean, I guess if by a gay you just mean within MAGA world, you are the A list gays. So, like, you get the best table at the Melania function at Dural. Okay, sure. But I don't know. I don't. I'm not.

[B]

I have, I have.

[C]

To me, it feels like, kind of like it feels. It feels almost like they aren't really given a cq. I'm just saying, like, if Charles Moran was like a Bill Pulte type or a heterosexual somebody, you would think that maybe he would have had a better job. I mean, like, they're like, it's not like a competitive category to get to the top of Trump world. These days as golf caddy is now in charge of hiring for the entire government. That was a job. That was recently posted Sergio Gore for example, we work for Rand Paul. There's another Trump shit poster. He's now the ambassador to India. So I'm just saying these guys, if.

[B]

They were straight, might actually have better jobs.

[C]

Jobs. Maybe they're at the back of the bus. That's all.

[D]

Having known many of these people personally, there are. There was a time when there were a lot of gay people in administrative Republican administrations in high level jobs. They were in high level jobs because they were talented, whatever. And it was a tough. It was tough for them because many of them had to be closeted and many of those people came out subsequently. Whatever. That group of people is a very different category than this group of people. This is a group of people that wields being gay as like, why, like one of why they should have the job. And also loves to complain about again because it's all a culture of victimhood. So it's like polite politics. Yeah. Here's how we're mistreated and it's. The story is about like. And there's always been this. There's always been a gay mafia in the government, both on the left and on the right. And. But it's like now it's just more open and it's all about how they're besties with Melania and they text each other when they need something. But this. Boy, how do I say this, Tim? You don't want to hang out with these people.

[C]

Like, like, I mean, I would rather I honestly, like I just drop me in the middle of a Baptist church in Alabama instead.

[D]

Same. This is not.

[C]

I can find at least a couple of earnest good people in that congregation.

[D]

I think there's a world in which sometimes people get iced out for being gay Republicans and then there are people who get iced out because they are dicks. Not people you want to be around at all. And I think it is much more the latter than the former.

[B]

I have so many questions. The first of all is were there gay Republican shit posters in the before times? So like back when the Log Cabin. Because my, my sense from the outside was that the Log Cabin Republicans were basically a bunch of like super buttoned up normie Republican types and not people who like had a taste for authoritarianism and like revanchism and whatnot.

[C]

I mean, I think there were a couple of gays over the years that had a taste for authoritarianism. J. Edgar Hoover. I don't Know, I'm sure we could come up with some more if I was thinking about it.

[B]

But yeah, I don't stereotypically the Republican gay section.

[C]

So let me tell you a little story. Sarah took us down memory lane. Let me tell you a little story. In 2012, I had an issue and this was one time I encountered Charles Moran. I was the spokesperson for Jon Huntsman campaign. A big problem that we have is that we were branded correctly as being a bunch of moderate squishes. And that's not what you want to be in a Republican primary. So a decent amount of gays wanted to support us and that, that was dropped on my plate. Like a lot of log cabin Republican types wanted to support us. And so we had an event in D.C. there was like a gays for Huntsman thing that I tried to keep closed press like an attention for this. And a bunch of people are there, including like one or two of the people in this story who seem like they just want attention and would go for whatever, whoever would give them attention. But the, the most people there were like John Huntsman type Republicans. They were like, you know, stereotypes. Socially liberal, fiscally conservative, you know, best.

[D]

They have jobs.

[C]

Yeah. You know, like that was like, that's the stereotype. That is true. And I think that something that has changed in the Trump era is that a, like, just like in any other group, not just gays, some people have a thirst for power and, and, and, and, and want to go after their enemies and they have grievances. Trump appeals to them because they're aggrieved. They were aggrieved. That people are mean to them in the lunchroom or that the other Republican staffers didn't give them enough credit or that the Democrats were, you know, wouldn't date them or whatever. Right. So like it's like any other group, they were drawn to Trump via their grievance. I think that happened. And then I think on top of that, there's been like, this is mostly white gay men. I should just say this is my people, not Sarah's people. But there's been like a culture war a little bit divide within the white gay male community over the trans question. And like there's like a category now of like gay men who are like kind of like almost culturally. Right. Because they don't like trans people. They don't want to be a part of that. They don't like the pronoun mafia. And then it's an easy jump there to being like, I'm also anti immigrant. It turns out, you know, like whatever. Right. Like I think so. I think that there is kind of also. So I think the two groups like kind of like there was the pre existing log Kevin Gays who kind of sort of liked turned out they had a taste for the grievance politics. Who went along with it? Charles Moran. And then I think there's a new batch.

[B]

All right.

[C]

Kind of younger.

[B]

Second question.

[C]

That's my anthropology.

[B]

This one for you, Sarah. Is there a corresponding group of lesbian Republican types who have thrown in with manga?

[D]

I mean I'm sure you can find a person or two out there. But I was struck actually by the story that there is seems to be.

[B]

Like a phenomenon just of white men.

[D]

Totally absent of women.

[C]

There was not a single lesbian in the story. Right.

[D]

And I'm not sure. I like I have not looked at where the organization is or who is a part of it now. But when I was there I made a real concerted effort to bring women onto the board, both straight and gay. And we had many more women during that period. I suspect they are all gone and I saw no evidence. And the women that I.

[C]

Your girl Jill Holman is still there. I'm googling it.

[D]

Oh, Jill Holman. Yeah.

[C]

But no, it's boys.

[D]

Yeah, I mean it was always male dominated and look, there was a period of time where I thought the Republican party was going in a really different direction than it went which was sort of the. We're going to be more socially moderate and sort of fiscally conservative. And it went. It went the opposite, exactly the opposite way in both directions. It's now sort of fiscally crony capitalistic and socialistic. It's just going to buy or not buy, just take stakes of American companies and have it pay ransom to the federal government. It's going to seize the means of production. So just downright socialism mixed with nativism and you know, and like the, the fact, Look, I think that there is, to Tim's point, I think that when we were having this conversation around trans issues when I was there and I think there is a world in which that's a. That's a very legitimate conversation. Like HRC is having this conversation too. Like the gay organizations are trying to square the fact that the gay issues and the trans issues are not the same and it's not the same people and but everybody's part of the same movement and like how do you manage that? And it's really. It's a. It's complicated and serious people can have a serious discussion about those issues. It's. There's a difference though, between actually, now that they've let us in, after all these years of them not letting us in, we're going to quick throw the door closed behind us. And if they're going after Muslims, if they're going after women, if they're going after trans people, if they're just being jerks and corrupt and whatever, I don't care as long as I get to party with Melania at Mar a Lago. And it is gross. It is bereft of principles. And you know, all of this stuff, this is just, it's just another faction of where the lies all were, of where none of it was real or none of it was connected to ideas. It's all about some kind of. And this article really did. It's about the social status and the gross, like, neediness of it all. And actually, yeah, I found it not triggering, not, not triggering so much as a reminder of like, the good people are all gone. And it's like this remnant MAGA group who are willing to do anything for power.

[C]

We've gone way long and I got to get to a lunch. Can we please fight about the music?

[B]

I was just about to say that, Timothy, people have made it through all four hours of the show. Get to have their dessert. Sarah and Tim, I would like you to have Fight Club over Disney.

[C]

I want to make my statement and then I'm interested in your rebuttal. I'm open to the fact that they're Disney grown ups. I saw a recent poll recently where it said that, like, I don't know how people did this, but they did a study and I guess the line for getting a picture with Buzz lightyear was like 40% adults with no children in a recent assessment of the park. So they're Disney grown ups. We can have a whole nother pod about what people think about that. If you just like Disney because you like it. That's not what I'm talking about here. Talking about parents with children taking children to Disney or Universal, which I just did. Universal. And I think that nobody tells you this, so I'm just the one to speak hard truths, which is that from age one to I think eight, maybe nine, my child's seven, so I don't exactly know. I went with a seven year old and a six year old. They don't really like it that much. Like they like it. Okay. The rides are a little scary. It's a long day. It's a lot of walking, there's a lot of complaining. They Want gifts, that there's a gift store at the end of every ride. They want you to buy them a gift at every ride. I keep telling people, I was like, if you take your kid to a toy store, to your local toy store and say, I'm giving you $100 to buy whatever you want, they will have a better time in that toy store than they will have at Disney World or Universal from the age one to seven or eight. And you will save a grand. Okay. Or two. So that's okay. And then there's like, a short period where the kids really love the rides or I'm sure it's fun. I don't know what that window is Exactly. I mean, JBL could tell me, like, 10 to 12 maybe. And then, and then, and then I remember this myself. I don't have a child like this where I have younger siblings. And then you become a teen where you resent it, where you're like, I don't want to take pictures with these people. I don't want to be here. I'd rather be with my friends. This sucks. So, like, there's like, this tiny window of magic that if you're in it with your children, I encourage you to take advantage of it. But outside of that, it is a burden. It is insanely expensive. And I think that there's propaganda. I think the people propagandize about it. And there's pressure from grandparents to do it for their needs, not the children's needs. And I just. I object. I object. I'm a conscientious objector. But I went, and it was a very fine day. And we'll have a lot of great memories and pictures from our one day.

[B]

In response, Sarah Longwell.

[D]

Okay, so my boys are 7 and 9, and so I don't know if they're in this window. The, The. The younger one definitely hit at the end of the day. You're right about the. I. I checked. My pedometer was 25, 000 steps. We got like, like it is. It was a lot. And it was hot. It was hot last week in la. But let me tell. It was the first time that I got to do roller coasters with my kids. And they both said, I don't want to go upside down. I'm afraid to go upside down. And I pushed, I nudged, and we went upside down. And they loved it. The Incredicoaster. Now, I think that.

[B]

Call them and tell them you wouldn't love them if they didn't go on it with you.

[D]

No. You know, What I said, I said, guys, we're having a yes day. We're having a yes day. And so you're gonna say yes to some things that you wouldn't maybe normally do. And I'm gonna say yes to some things that I wouldn't normally do. That's good directing. So let me tell you what. We did Universal and we did Disney. Cause they were close and we were out on the West Coast. I think that. So my kids are in two worlds right now. Star wars and Harry Potter. And so to be able to go do the Harry Potter world where they. And so, like, I. We. We had up some rules about what we would buy them. And it was basically, we were going to let them do lightsaber building lightsabers for everyone. We got a wand and a lightsaber. And I gotta tell you, Universal, Harry Potter world, they could do spells with their wands and, like, the thing they would do. Something. I thought the parks were incredibly well run.

[B]

Kyber crystal colors. Did they choose.

[D]

So one chose blue and one chose green. And I'll tell you, it was magic for them. We rode the rise of the resistance and the smugglers. Run. And them getting to drive to fly the Millennium Falcon. I mean, for them, this was. I genuinely. I had magical moments. I'm just gonna say I had. We. Yes.

[C]

I'm happy for you.

[D]

There was some whining and there was some begging for things that they did not get. But there was also getting to fly on a broom, getting to cast spells, getting to see a TIE fighter. My oldest kid. So I'm just gonna tell you one little story. My oldest kid. So when we were in the Star wars thing at Disney, the stormtroopers came through, and my oldest wanted nothing to do with them. There was the bad guys, and he was nervous and scared. But then we saw Ray.

[B]

You throw a sandwich at them?

[D]

No, he didn't throw a sandwich at them. He just didn't want to go near them. I was like, do you want to go get a picture? You want to go say hi? No, no, no. Like, kind of hiding behind me.

[C]

Sorry, I don't know who these characters are. I also, in addition to not being a big theme park person, I also know nothing about Star Wars. I don't know the names of the characters. And so I started to space out.

[B]

Kid throwing a sandwich at a stormtrooper. That's a funny bit.

[C]

I'm sure it is.

[B]

For.

[C]

Yeah, for me to know what a stormtrooper is, but go ahead.

[D]

All right, well, let me just say. Woke Disney came up with a female. There's of course in the new chapters there's a woman hero named Rey. And my kids are growing up with her. And when my oldest met like the Ray character was walking around and I have never seen my nine year old boy blush harder or be more excited, she gave him a mission, which is basically like the mission of the fly the Millennium Falcon and go get me some coaxium or whatever. And he was like, he was like, he was like jiggling and it's like he couldn't hold still. And he was like, yes, I will. Yes. And she was. I mean, it was a wonderful moment. And I'm sorry, Tim, that you can't experience that joy.

[B]

But I'm happy for you.

[C]

Okay, well, I'm happy for you. I'm happy that it happened for you. Maybe it will happen for me at some point. I'm open to it. And I will say this though, it's not good to be a whining parent. And so I'm sharing this with you on this adult show. Sometimes people complain because we cuss and they have kids in the car. So I apologize if you have kids in the car. I don't want to take anyone's magic away from them. I put on a great face for Toulouse. I pretended like I was having fun. You better believe I was faking it. Okay, but I just mean inside. I think the whole family would have had a better day if we did four hours by the pool and one hour at a toy store. And I think we would have saved a grant or two. Okay, well, three maybe. I don't remember how much it cost, but it was a lot.

[D]

Make some memories. It was. I.

[C]

That's it. I'm happy for you though. That's great memories. Those are great memories. Good for you. I'm glad you had an enjoyable vacation. We did other things that were really enjoyable on our vacation. So teach their own Good show.

[B]

Incredibly long show. Sarah. It was great to have you back guys. We will catch you next week again, all three of us together. We're not getting out of this thing. I think maybe ever. Good luck America.

[E]

This Labor Day. Say goodbye to spills, stains and overpriced furniture with washablesofas.com featuring Annabe, the only machine washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly pricing. Sofas start at just $6.99 making it the perfect time to upgrade your space. Annabe's pet friendly, stain resistant and interchangeable slipcovers are made with high performance fabric built for real life. You'll love the cloud like comfort of hypoallergenic high resilience foam that never needs fluffing and a durable steel frame that stands the test of time. With modular pieces you can rearrange anytime. It's a sofa that adapts to your life. Now through Labor Day, get up to 60% off site [e-mail] Every order comes with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not in love, send it back for a full refund. No return chip shipping, no restocking fees. Every penny back. Shop [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.