The Next Level – “Vance is a DORK! MAGA is GAY! Sandwich Man WINS!”
Podcast: The Next Level by The Bulwark
Hosts: Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last (JVL)
Release Date: August 27, 2025
Episode Overview
This episode blends pointed political commentary, insider campaign analysis, and irreverent banter as the trio returns from summer travels. The discussion ranges from Democratic leadership challenges, MAGA movement oddities, and culture war absurdities to the state of focus group democracy, the grand jury process, and who’s really winning at Disney parks. At its core is relentless scrutiny of the Democratic Party’s ability (or inability) to mount an effective defense against rising authoritarianism, as well as the crosscurrents reshaping both major parties.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Theme Park Politics & the Return from Vacation
[02:00 - 03:06]
- Sarah recounts her West Coast parks adventure, noting subtle “tribal” differences between Disney (Kamala Harris vibes) and Universal (MAGA gear).
- “Universal Studios felt like it was for Republicans... Disney felt like Kamala Harris voters.” (Sarah, 02:41)
- The group jokes about Twitter FOMO and crowd-sourced shaming for working on vacation.
2. Gavin Newsom’s Troll Game & The Nature of Modern Political Leadership
[03:48 - 15:59]
- Newsom’s online “Trump parody” and shitposting has won over many Dems and “normies”—but is this what the presidency now requires?
- Sarah’s “mirror” theory: Newsom holds up the absurdities of MAGA to MAGA, and reactions are telling.
- “Holding up a mirror to what they tolerate from Trump for the sake of partisanship is a great exercise.” (Sarah, 06:03)
- Tim questions whether mere performance, even effective trolling, can build a broad-based coalition; irony and meta-commentary only go so far:
- “You can't really rally the country behind irony and sort of meta-commentary on the commentary…” (Tim, 12:35)
- JVL and Sarah agree: Democratic insiders and activists desperately want a “fighter,” but “performance artist from California is not going to do well in central Pennsylvania.”
- A “This and That” Seinfeld reference sets up their ideal candidate: someone earnest, able to rally the country—and able to own the cons.
3. The Job of the Next Democratic President: De-Trumpification
[17:06 - 20:03]
- JVL highlights that the paramount task for any Dem successor will be “de-Trumpifying” federal institutions—requiring “pure political willpower.”
- “...the most important duty of the next Democratic president… is not going to be leadership, bipartisan, pass legislation stuff. It's going to be having the stones to de-Trumpify the federal government...” (JVL, 17:06)
- Sarah argues the ticket must win and appeal to key swing states—a “Josh Shapiro type” over a performer like Newsom.
4. Israel, BB Netanyahu, and Intra-Democratic Party Wedges
[20:03 - 21:32]
- The party’s Israel-Gaza split poses huge strategic hurdles.
- “Why isn't the best Democratic nominee a BB-Critical Jewish guy?” (Sarah, 20:20)
- Shapiro could bridge divides—but would have to “go overboard” criticizing Netanyahu to win the nomination.
5. Lisa Cook’s Firing & the Decline of Institutional Norms
[23:53 - 33:43]
- Trump’s firing of the first Black woman Fed governor is alarming for institutional independence—but largely unnoticed by the public.
- “You will never conduct a focus group in which anybody mentions the name Lisa Cook…” (JVL, 23:53)
- Tim and JVL focus on the new “enemies list” authoritarianism—government leverage over individuals:
- “The head of the Federal Housing Finance Agency has an enemies list that he's going through…” (Tim, 27:15)
- The normalization of abuses—firing enemies, prepping to purge the Fed further—is a symptom of creeping autocracy.
- Markets and the public are disturbingly unphased.
6. Political Messaging, DNC Weakness, and Progressive Populism
[35:52 - 48:28]
- Tim laments the DNC’s “veep-shit” priorities (land acknowledgments, Powerpoints, identity signaling) over voter mobilization:
- “...focus on rallying people around, fighting [Trump]. That is your job at the DNC. It is not your job...to make sure every minority group feels like they have a safe space when they come to your bill.” (Tim, 41:23)
- Sarah slams Dems’ fundraising and messaging incompetence; calls for donors to “build something new.”
- Pointed praise for the left populist strategy: fielding “normal” working-class faces (even if white, not just Bernie/AOC types).
- “They're putting on an actual effort to say, hey, we have a brand issue with working people...just as a general matter, it's like, we're gonna recruit working class people, we're gonna do ads where they talk like regular fucking people...” (Tim, 46:07)
7. Sandwich Man Acquitted: Signs of Resistance
[48:30 - 51:47]
- Grand juries continue to resist DOJ overreach—even the “Indict-a-Ham-Sandwich” maxim fails when “Sandwich Man” and others are brought up.
- “The DOJ, Pam Bondi DOJ and her henchmen are just getting their ass beaten all over...and that’s nice. That’s a win.” (Tim, 49:52)
- A rare moment of levity and optimism.
8. MAGA A-Gays: Identity, Opportunism, and Grievance Culture
[51:47 – 73:07]
- NYT piece on “a gays of Washington” prompts reflection on long-standing tensions and cycles among gay Republicans.
- “Republicans don’t like you because you are gay. Democrats don’t like you because you are a Republican.” (Sarah, 52:46)
- Sarah and Tim trade war stories from Log Cabin days, noting the shift from “normie” gay Republicans to grievance-driven, opportunist MAGA gays, mostly white men.
- “A, just like any other group, not just gays, some people have a thirst for power and want to go after their enemies and they have grievances. Trump appeals to them because they’re aggrieved.” (Tim, 68:33)
- Power and attention are now the prizes for loyalty, not policy advancement—often at the expense of principle or broader social progress.
9. Disney Fight Club: Theme Park Joy or Parental Scam?
[73:11 - 80:25]
- Heated yet humorous “fight club” over the real value of theme parks for kids.
- Tim: The hype is overblown; younger kids don’t really enjoy it, you’re wasting thousands—“conscientious objector.”
(Tim, 73:23) - Sarah: With the right ages and expectations, it’s pure family magic. (Big win on Star Wars and Harry Potter rides.)
- Exemplifies generational and parental divides in modern American life.
- Tim: The hype is overblown; younger kids don’t really enjoy it, you’re wasting thousands—“conscientious objector.”
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On Newsom vs. Trumpism:
“If you match Trump in trolling behavior and shitposting, I don't know that I think that is part of what is required in this moment...ridicule is legitimate...I do not think it’s the presidential part.”
– Sarah Longwell [06:19-07:12] -
On Dem Messaging:
“You can't really rally the country behind irony and sort of meta-commentary on the commentary. I feel like you need...earnestness.”
– Tim Miller [12:35] -
On De-Trumpifying the Government:
“The next Democratic president...it's going to be having the stones to de-Trumpify the federal government, which will be a fight that consumes at least the entire first year...requires pure political willpower.”
– JVL [17:06] -
On the DNC’s Misplaced Focus:
“...It is not your job actually to create policy. It is not your job...to make sure that every minority group feels like they have a safe space when they come to your bill. Focus on the job of registering voters, of going into communities and identifying people...who might be Democrats and...talking about how Donald Trump is a fucking shitbird. That’s your job.”
– Tim Miller [41:23] -
On MAGA Gays and Status:
“This is a group of people that wields being gay as like, why, like one of why they should have the job. And also loves to complain...it's all a culture of victimhood.”
– Sarah Longwell [66:07]
Timestamps for Notable Segments
- [02:41] – Theme parks as political microcosms
- [05:38] – Newsom “mirror strategy” and authenticity debates
- [12:35] – Dilemma: can irony and trolling unify a party/country?
- [17:06] – The central mission of a post-Trump presidency
- [23:53] – Institutional autocracy: Lisa Cook and Fed independence
- [41:23] – Tim’s DNC “veep-shit” rant and fundraising reality check
- [46:07] – Praise for left-populist candidate recruitment
- [49:52] – “Sandwich Man” grand jury resistance
- [52:46] – The paradox of being a gay Republican
- [66:07] – Grievance, victimhood, and opportunism among MAGA gays
- [73:23] – Disney debate: scam or magic?
Tone & Style Reflections
- The hosts alternate between wonky policy detail, “inside baseball” campaign tales, and comic relief.
- The episode is deeply critical of both parties—but especially the Democratic Party’s drift and performative priorities.
- There is palpable anxiety about America’s slide toward authoritarianism, occasionally punctured by gallows humor and hopeful serendipities (e.g., grand jury resistance, left-populist efforts, theme park joy).
- Banter about “Disney grownups,” MAGA’s embrace of grievance, and old Log Cabin war stories give a personal, authentic feel.
Summary
This episode exposes deep existential anxiety among center and center-left observers about both the MAGA movement’s authoritarian advance and the inability of Democratic institutions to effectively resist it. Extraordinary political times require extraordinary political actors—but the right mix of trolling, seriousness, and broad appeal remains elusive. Meanwhile, Sarah, Tim, and JVL provide both a roadmap for what’s needed—and a bracing (and at times hilarious) critique of all that stands in the way.